time and is far from the largenesse of the whole church of Christ Your third reason is Then were it not also the pillar and ground of truth as S. Paul affirmeth Let vs also bring this reason into forme The pillar and ground of truth cannot erre The Church is the pillar and ground of truth Therefore the Church cannot erre First what is this to generall Councels which are not that church which S. Paul calleth the pillar and ground of truth but at the best onely some part of it that church is the house of the liuing God which extends it selfe more largely both in regard of persons and times then to the number assembled in some generall councels in some times of the church Whereby it commeth to passe that as before hath beene noted out of Augustine generall councels haue corrected prouinciall and the later generall councels haue corrected the former Wherefore some generall councell or councels may erre and yet the church remain still the pillar and ground of truth Secondly the Church is called the pillar and ground of truth as hath bene shewed because the Oracles of God are committed vnto it which the church keepeth faithfully to the worlds end By which as by an vndoubted marke the true Church is knowne from the false For the false church casteth away and corrupteth the Scriptures neither doth vphold and beare vp the truth by the preaching of the Gospell as is manifestly seene in the Apostaticall church of Rome Contrariwise the true church conserueth the records of Gods truth and preacheth the doctrine of the holy Scripture for the gathering of the Saints and the edifying Ephes 4. 12. Mal. 2. 7. of it selfe Howbeit as the Priest whose lips should preserue knowledge and at whose mouth they should inquire the law may sometimes faile in the knowledge and shewing of the law So the visible church may in some points of truth hold erroneous opinions and yet continue still the pillar and ground of truth to wit of that truth which is necessarie to saluation in the true knowledge and custodie whereof the true Church shall neuer deceiue nor be deceiued The Apostles and Disciples of our Sauiour Christ at the time of his ascention were the onely true visible church of Christ who vndoubtedly were the pillar and ground of 1. Tim. 6. 3. truth holding fast the foundation which is Iesus Christ and keeping the wholesome word which is according to godlinesse Act. 1. 6 yet did they erre in the matter of restoring the kingdome to Israel Thirdly as before hath bene shewed out of Chrysostome The truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church For as Augustine August 〈◊〉 166. faith to the Donatists In the Scriptures we haue learned Christ In the Scriptures vve haue learned the Church Vnderstanding therefore pillar ground or firmament for the strength stay or foundation the truth is the strength stay and foundation of the church which is built vpon the foundation of the Eph. 2. 20. Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone But the church is the pillar and ground of truth as Galath 29. Cephas lamet and Iohn were counted to bee pillars because by their preaching the Gospel was greatly vpheld Fundatores Ecclesiae erant sustentatores They were founders of the Church and vpholders as Haymâ— noteth out of Augustine So the Church layeth the foundation of truth and beareth vp the truth by confessing and preaching Inqua solu as Primasius noteth nunc veritas stat firmata que solatotum edificium sustinet veritatis that is In vvhich alone the truth novv standeth grounded and which alone beareth vp the vvhole building of truth Not that the church is as Ladie ouer the truth but as an handmaide to the truth Therefore as Peter being a pillar was yet subiect to error so the church is not free from all error although it be the pillar and ground of truth The Protestants therefore that embrace that truth which the true church teacheth according to the Scriptures haue the true sense of the Scriptures and not the Papists that build vpon variable and vncertaine definitions of men not examining them by the infallible and cleere doctrine of the Scriptures PAPIST Fiftly S. Peter saith that no prophecie of Scripture is made by 2. Pet. 1. 20. priuate interpretation Priuate interpretation 〈◊〉 haue none seeing vve interpret them according to that sense vvhich consent of antiquitie and the authoritie of Gods Church deliuereth and the Protestants haue none but priuate seeing their doctrine is that euerie one must examine by the touchstone of the Scriptures vvhat others do teach and so to admit or reiect it as they find it agreeable or not to the vvord of God vvhich if it be not priuate interpretation there can be none sound in the world For vvhat can be more priuate then for euerie priuate vnlearned artificer to make himselfe iudge ouer all and to sentence this mans doctrine as agreeable to Gods vvord and to reiect the common opinion of manie more yea though of ancient Fathers and generall Councels as contrarie to sacred Scripture and yet this is common amongst our aduersaries as daily experience informeth vs. PROTESTANT Priuate interpretation in this place of Peter is opposed to the interpretation of the spirit as in the wordes plainely appeareth and not one mans interpretations to manie mens as you pretend For all mens interpretation if it be humane comming of their owne sense and not taught by the Spirit is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 their owne which you call priuate The gift of interpretation as other spirituall gists is of the spirit 1. Cor 13. 10. Luke 24. 45. of God who openeth the hearts of men to vnderstand the scriptures As he opened the heart of Lydia For otherwise as the Act. 1â— 14. veile remaining vpon the hearts of the Iewes they could not see into the end of the law but vvhen the vâ—â—le vv is taken away 2. Cor. 3. 16. from their hearts then by a right vnderstanding of the Scriptures they were conuerred vnto Christ So while the vaile of carnall wisedome which is foolishnesse vvith God is 1. Cor. 1 10. Rom. 8. 7. 1. Cor. 2. 24. vpon the hearts of men they cannot discerne the wisedome of God reuealed in the Scriptures For the Scripture and the true sense thereof is spiritually discerned and onely the Ioh. 6. 45. spirituall man discerneth all things By this spirit are all that beleeue taught of God and euerie man that hath heard and learned of the Father commeth vnto Christ This spirit by the Act. 8. ministerie of Philip led the Eunuch to the true sense of the Prophet Esay Neither Philip nor any of the disciples could giue him the spirit of discerning Neque enim saith Augustine De Trinit lib. 15. cap. 26. aliquis discipuloruns eâ—as dedit spiritum Sanctum For none of his disciples gaue the holy Ghost Neither
seeke a vision of the Prophets then they shall find that by the iust iudgment of Ezek. 7. ver 6 God the law shal perish from the Priest and councel froÌ„ the Ancient Which at this day they all find who feed vpon the lying vanities of Popish visions being deluded by the painted vizard of the Church which you haue put vpon your faces Wherefore if you could proue your Church the true Church which you can neuer do yet should you stil come to short of prouing that you stand so much in need of that your Church cannot erre and therefore Praying to Saints Purgatorie Pardons c. must be beleeued because your Church teacheth them God grant that your seduced Clients Iere. 2. 13. may leaue these broken pits that will hold no water and haue recourse to the fountaine of liuing waters the holy scripture thereby to trie euerie spirit whether it be of God or no and not blindly beleeue euery spirit that saith Iohn 4. 1. it is of God Yea but say you If the Church maie erre in faith then might wee aswell be damned being members of the true Church as of the false that not for a wicked life but for a wrong faith which cannot be First you shewe of what force all your proofes are that you are faine so shamelesly to beg that without any proofe which all men know to be most false for is it so strange to you that a meÌ„ber of a true visible church may be daÌ„ned euen for matter of wrong beliefe Are al the members of euery true visible Churhc true and proper members of the mysticall body of Christ Know you not that Saint Paul saith to Galathians Behold I Paul say vnto euerie men that is circumcised Christ shall profit you nothing yee are abolished from Christ whosoeuer are iustified by the law yee are fallen from grace And yet they to whom he spake were members of a true visible Church Therefore the members of a true visible Church may be damned for a wrong beliefe Secondly albiet the true visible Churches may erre daÌ„nably as the church of the Iewes in condemning Christ the Arrians in denying his eternall Godhead yet the true Catholike Church which is the body of Christ cannot erre damnably nor any true member thereof and yet euery member of the militant Church may erre but not damnably for euery error is not damnable no not in matter of faith some build vpon the foundation Timber hay and stuble 1 Cor. 3. 12. c. so long as they build vpon the foundation they themselues shall be saued but shall suffer losse of their worke by the fiery triall of Gods word Confessing therefore the infirmity and ignorance euen of the true members of the true Catholike Church in this flesh which is such no one of them can haue immunity from error yet it will not followe that any true member of the Catholike Church can be damned and yet he may beleeue amisse in some points of faith God open the eies of the blinde that they may discerne your dangerous and damnable sleight You would haue all your disciples hold themselues contented only with the Coliars faith to beleeueth as the Church beleeueth althogh they know not what the Church beleeueth To the intent you may bewitch them this is your sorcerie you tell them the Church cannot erre meaning your Romish church therfore they may securly beleeue whatsoeuer you bid theÌ„ so doing shall vndoubtedly be saued A coÌ„pendious Religion promising vnto men saluation without taking any paines to know the truth of God to search the scriptures to trie the spirits and to discerne of the true faith But what saith the scripture He that beleeueth and is baptized shall be saued he that beleeueth not shall be damned And what must Mark 16. 16. they beleeue that shall be saued That which the Apostles teach what must the Apostles teach All that Christ commanded Then must euery beleeuer discerne the truth of his Matth. 28. 20. faith by the vndoubted commandement of Christ that he may haue vndoubted comfort of his owne saluation Men will not take money for currant before they haue tried it by touch and weight and will any be so desperatly foolish as to beleeue euery spirit and receiue euery doctrine not trying by the touch of scriptures and the weights of Gods sanctuarie whether it be of God or no Yea but S. Paul affirmeth that the Church is the pillar ground of truth And this ought to be a great comfort to all vnâ—earned Catholikes It ought so indeede and to the learned too that the Oracles of God are committed to his Church and there onely the sheepe of God may heare the voice of their Shepheard Howbeit the vnlearned Catholiks shall be much abused if they suppose this Church to be the supposed Church of Rome or thinke that truth is pinned vpon any Iohn 10. 27. one churches sleeue or is indefinitly committed to the whole Church without submission to the trial of scriptures What is truth the scriptures onely shew where that truth is preserued and taught there is the true Church For the Church is the pillar ground of truth By the scriptures therfore all true Catholikes must learn to know the true church and receiue the truth of the scriptures from the mouth and by the ministrie of the church but not vpon the bare and onely cred it of the church For to omit Theophilact who interpreteth truth in this place as opposit to Iewish shadows which sense may very well be followed and so you haue no shew of helpe here Chrysostome vpon the place giueth this sense Hoc est enim quod fidem continet ac praedicationemâ— quippe verit as Ecclesiae columna firmaâ—entum est This is that which keepeth faith and preaching for truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church Where you see the church ministerially keepeth faith and preacheth the word as the Pyramis in Paris did keepe the memorie of your Iesuitical parricide but in a nother sense the truth by Chrysostoms iudgmeÌ„t is the pillar and firmament of the Church And Dyonisius Carthusianus Estque columna firmamentum verit atis id est verit atem Euangelicam fortiter portat c. The pillar and ground of truth saith he that is it doth stroÌ„gly beare the truth of the gospel note the truth of the Gospel which the church hath receiued not any truth inueÌ„ted or taught by the church without or beside the Gospell Therefore out of this place we thus conclude against you The Church of God is the pillar and ground of truth that is beareth the truth by the preaching of the Gospel before men The Church of Rome is not the pillar and ground of truth for it beareth not the â—ruth before men by the preaching of the Gospell but her â—â—ue superstitions Inuentions besides the Gospell and contrary to the Gospell at praier to Saints Purgatory
before in the daies of Helkias the Priest But chuse you whether you will cease your wrangling about mens names or not and be it knowen to you that we will search the scriptures in which alone wee beleeue to Iohn 5. 39. haue eternall life and which only beare vnto vs infallible witnes of Christ and of all true Religion necessarie to saluation How beit were your succession any thing worth to the finding out of truth when or how shall it be agreed whether Liuus or Clemens succeeded Peter whether Cletus and Anacletus be one man or if they be two which is the first or which must be put out of the succession or whether Clemens be before them or either of them for these vncertainties are in the highest roundes of this your ladder of succession Tell vs whether Pope Ioaue haue not made a foule cracke in your succession or what we shall make of your 30. Schismes whereof the twentie ninth continued the space of 50 yeares together first with two Popes at once then with three vntil the Councell of Constance remoued them all three and set vp Martin 5. since your Church representatiue in the councel iudged against them al three may we not rightly iudge that your succesion was quite broken off and none of these 3 nor they to whom they succeeded during that Schisme were true successors of Peter How euer it be make your succession as strong as you can Except Cum successione Episcopatus With the succession of the Chaire they haue receiued Veritatis charisma certū the vndoubted Iren lib. 4. cap. 43. gift of truth we make no reckoning of it As for your Austen who you say conuerted vs Englishmen it is well knowen that this Iland had receiued the faith long before Austen was borne in the daies of Kinge Lucius and euen at that time had true religion in better order in more sincerity then Austen himself except there were any more sincerity in his doctrine then in his superstitious and vaineglorious ceremonies vpon which together with your cloysters and dennes God in his mercie hath brought the confusion of Babel as appeareth this day and shall do we trust more and more PAPIST Out of this reason maie one quicklie learne that all points of our religiō be most true as praying to Saints Purgatory Pardons the Real presence Confession of sinnes though oach one knowe not howe to defende them nor perceiue vpon what groundes they stand for seeing we haue now prooued that our Church is the true Church of Christ consequently we are to beleeue that which it teacheth because she cannot erre in matters of faith for if shee could then might we as well be damned being members of the true Church of Christ as members of the false and not for a wicked life but for a wrong beleefe which cannot be and to free vs from all such doubtes Saint Paul affirmeth that the Church is the piller and ground of truth This ought to be a great comfort to all 1 Tim. 3. 15. vnlearned Catholikes that cannot enter into the deepe misteries of Christian religion PROTESTANT No doubt you must needs proue a forcible Reasoner that out of one sophisticall Syllogisme full of equiuocation as hath beene shewed from a reason pretended of the continuance of the Church inuifible reputation as you say for the space of 1600. yeares which by your owne confession will serue the Iewish synagogue as well as your supposed Church yet as if you had stricken the matter dead presume out of hand that all is proued You haue now proued that your Church is the true Church of Christ They that will bee caried away with such proofes it skils not greatly of what Church they be They surely dote vpon the Romish harlot and follow her for blinde loue and not for reason But let vs further examine how forcibly you build vpon this sandie foundation If your Church be the true Church then all must be beleeued that she teacheth And therefore praying to Saints Purgatory Pardons c. For she cannot erre in matters of faith were not the Churches of Galathia true Churches Is not the bringing in of Circumcision to be ioyned with faith in Christ as necessary to Gal. 1. 6. saluation an error in matter of faith Did not the Galathians erre in that point in so much that the Apostle reproues them as those that had remoued to another Gospell If the members of a true church ought to beleeue all that the church teacheth them who could blame the Galathians in this point yet Paul spares not to call them foolish Againe were not the Apostles the true Church yet did they erre euen after Christs resurrection not onely before the receiuing of the holy Ghost but after also and that in matter of faith before the holy Ghost came downe they Act. 1. 6. dreamed of restoring the externall kingdome of Israel and that by Christ After they had receiued the holy Ghost Act. 10. 14. Peter iudged some meates vncleane and was doubtfull of going into the vncircumcised and eating with them vntill he was better informed by an heauenly vision Neither was this error proper to him alone and yet had he bene Pastor of Pastors and the highest Bishop in the Church from whose lippes all truth was to be receiued how could the Church haue bene free from this error for as Gregory saith Epist lib. 6. epist 34. Si vnus Episcopus vocatur vniuersalis vniuersa Ecclesiacorruit Si vnus vniuersus cadit That is If one Bishop be called vniuersall the whole Church is ruinated if that one vniuersall do fall but common to all the rest of the Apostles as appeareth both in that he was called to an account before the Apostles Act. 11. 3. and the Church for entring in vnto Cornelius and alleaging his warrant both by vision and speciall oracle satisfied them so as they now first came to discerne that God vnto the Gentiles also had graunted repentance vnto life and Vers 18. therefore held their peace and glorified God and also in that when some came from Iames he withdrew himselfe from Gal. 2. 12. the Gentiles which he would not haue done if the true Church had not as then bene vnsetled in this point of faith That which befell vnto the Apostolike church may much more befall vnto the church of Rome as the like hath done vnto many other churches and therefore it follows not because the church of Rome was once the true church that either it cannot erre or must needs continue the true church still Such braggers as you were those Rabbies that conspired against Ieremie presuming as you do that the law should not perish from the Priest nor counsell from the wise nor Ier. 18. v. 18. the word from the Prophets that is that the church could not erre but the Lord by Ezechiel tels them that build vpō that false principle that when they shall come to
Pardons Real presence Eare-shrift c. Therefore the Church of Rome is not the church of God The second Reason PAPIST That is the true faith and religion of Christ which the ancient and learned Fathers tanght maintained in the floursshing time of the Primitiue Church that is within the first 600 yeares next after Christ and this is so true that our Aduersaries themselues confesse it For M. Iewell sometime of Sarisbury cried out in this maner O Gregory ô Leo ô Augustine ô Ambrose c if we be deceiued you haue deceiued vs. The Church of England In his chaleng Sermon at Paules crosse also continueth their memorie in euerie Kalender as it doth of the blessed Apostles which fauour no question it would not afford them if it iudged them Heretikes or false teachers And as no Protestant I thinke dare say that they bee damned in hell for hereticall or false doctrine So most sure I am that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation upon them that liued so neere Christ then vpon such as liue now and be partiall in their owne cause PROTESTANT The floure of your reasons is now gone and indeede a floure for the bright beames of truth shining froÌ„ the Sunne of righteousnesse in the firmament of his word hath dimmed the grace and defaced the beautie of this your vaine best reason The second reason comming to rescue the former at vnawares thinking to smite his enemie wounded his fellowe to the heart For if the long continued pompe of your supposed Church be proofe enough that yours for sooth is the true Church and if the priuiledge of the true church which you chalenge to yours be that it cannot erre and consequently we are to beleeue what your Church teacheth what needed you then to haue abated this last 1000 yeares and to appeale to the flourishing time of the Primitiue church within the first 600 years Surely this is a plaine coÌ„fession against your selues that your long coÌ„tinued Church comes much short in dignity credit and authority of those 600 yeares Else why do you not rest contented with your owne testimony as being the preseÌ„t Oracle of the church but are faine to borrowe proofe of the Primitiue Church considering that if long continuance be the matter though your persons be yonger and your age but of yesterday yet by the addition of so many yeares your Church hath a grauer head and surely more wrinckles in her face then in those former times she had If therefore the ancienter testimonies do more stroÌ„gly proue the truth then is theremore certain trial of truth to be fetcht froÌ„ the early beginnings of the church then froÌ„ the long continued doating age as plainly appeareth of your Church And surely so did the Fathers within those 600 yeares they prooued their doctrines and maintained euery truth not by the face of long time but by the authority of the first times wherein Christ and his Apostles vndoubtedly taught the truth and by vndoubted records of diuine inspiration that is the holie scriptures commended the same to all posterity Augustine Epist 19. ad Hieron Ego solis Scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur c. I haue learned to yeeld only to those books of scripture which are now called Canonical that feare heuer that I firmely beleeue no author of theÌ„ in writing to haue coÌ„mitted anie error others I so reade that how holie or learned soeuer they be I do not therefore thinke a matter to bee true because they so thought but because they were able to perswade me either by those canonical authors or by probable reason that it swarneth not from truth And therefore ad Vincentium Donatist Epist 48. Nâ—lâ— contra diuina testimonia c. Haue no will or desire out of the writings of Bishops togather cauils against the diuine testimonies first because this kind of writings is distinguished from the cannon c. But let vs see your reason That is the true faith which the ancient and learned Fathers taught in the first 600 yeares But they were of our religion and not of the Protestants Therefore ours is the true faith and not the Protestants First is your Proposition vniuersall or indefinite If you say The ancient and learned Fathers taught the true faith in all points necessarie to saluation we will not sticke with you but if you say that withall they taught nothing swaruing from the true faith neither can we yeeld it vnto you neither do the Fathers themselues yeeld it one to another neither doth any one of them presume to chalenge so much to him self neither wil your selues I am sure generally also affirme You know the contrary of Tertullian Cyprian and Origene Augustine did not in all things accord with Ierome nor allow whatsoeuer himselfe had written and these things are not vnknowne to you nor vnconfessed by you Wherefore if you will haue your proposition vniuersally taken it is false that whatsoeuer the Fathers taught is the true faith If indefinitly then will it fall out to be onely particular of some things suppose the most things that the ancient learned Fathers taught that they agreed with the true faith So that if you could proue that your Popish faith consisting in the points of your nouelties vnknowne to Christ and his Apostles and of your Apostafie from the true faith did in some points agree with some opinions of the learned Fathers yet would it not follow that yours is the true faith vnlesse you could manifestly proue that the Fathers therein held the true faith For your Popish faith partly hath an apish imitation of some outworne rites of ancient times as Vnctions Exorcismes c. partly carcheth hold of some of their errors as prayer for the dead partly proceedeth on boldly to affirme of those things whereof they spake doubtfully as Purgatory partly peruerteth and abuseth their words against their meanings sometime taking that literally which they meant tropically as Sacrifice Oblation Priest Altar c. sometime wresting their words from that good sense which they beare by proportion of their writings to that bad and absurd sense which since you haue violently drawne them to as Merit Poenitentiam agere Confession Satisfaction c. Contrariwise the Protestants religion is in substance the same which the ancient learned Fathers taught wherein the Protestants therefore follow them because they haue followed the Scriptures as hath bene often mainteined proued and demonstrated to your stopped eares and hardened hearts Briefly the Proposition vniuersally vnderstood is false The Assumption vniuersally vnderstood of all their faith and religion is false of your Popish faith Therefore the conclusion followes not But let vs see how strongly or rather straungely you proue your Proposition First you say it is so true that your aduersaries confesse it for M. Iewell sometime of Sarisburie c. That godly and learned Bishop was confident that you could not bring any one sufficient sentence out of
your owne putting falsly yet neither can you so hide your owne shame nor dazell the eyes of the godly by casting the mist of your owne deuise before them The question therefore is not as you say Whether for the true sense of the Scriptures we should not rather beleeue the auncient Fathers then those that liue in our daies neither onely whether Scriptures or Fathers deserue more credit which is but a consequence following vpon that which you affirme touching the interpretation of Scriptures by the consent of Fathers as an infallible rule but this is indeede the question betweene vs and you Whether the Scriptures inspired of God in all fundamentall points both concerning faith and manners be not so cleere and plaine that they do sufficiently interpret themselues against which cleere interpretation none other is to be receiued from what authoritie so euer it come We affirme you deny And by denial make the interpretations of men of more credit then the interpretation of scriptures We haue the word of God on our side Ps 19. 7. The testimonie of the Lord is true and giueth wisedome to the simple 2. Tim. 3. 15. The Scriptures are able to make wise vnto saluation Ioh. 5. 39. Search the Scriptures for in them you thinke to haue eternall life and they testifie of me The men of Berea searched the Scriptures to trie those things which Paul spake which had bene verie vainly done if the Scriptures had not bin a leere light vnto them to discerne of all necessarie doctrines We haue the godly Father S. Augustine cleere for vs in his Quaeapertè c. In those things which are euidently set down in the Scriptures are al those points found which coÌ„teine faith maners of life This being the state of the questioÌ„ let all godly men see whether it be not a reproch to the Spirit of God to accuse his word of such darkenes and obscurity that for the greatest part of the Church of God is not able to vnderstand it no not in the principall matters of faith and godlinesse Could not the Spirit of God in the Scriptures speake to the vnderstanding of the simple you will say yes but perhaps he would not Our Sauiour Christ giueth thankes to his Father for reuealing the doctrine of the kingdome of heauen to Babes and Matth. 11. 25. hiding it from the wise The Apostle Paul saith If our Gospel he hid it is hid in them that perish in whom the God of this world 2 Cor. 4. 3. hath blinded their eies that is of the vnbeleeuers that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them The sheepe of Christ heare the voice of Christ and know it from the voice of strangers and therefore will not follow strangers How Ioh. 10. 4. 5. 27. could the sheepe of Christ who now heare his voice onely in the scriptures know his voice from the voice of strangers if the scriptures were of purpose written obscurelie yea let all reasonable men consider whether it be not a sandie foundation to build our faith vpon forsaking the scriptures inspired of God to depend vpon mens lips especially the eternall word of God hauing branded all men with Psal 116. 11. Rom. 3. 4. Psal 146. 3. Ier. 17. 5. this marke that all men are â—ers and therefore expresly commanding not to trust in any child of man yea cursing euery man that putteth his trust in man Augustine answering to an obiection of the Donatists pretending to be written against him by a cheife man of the Catholikes besides that he chargeth that epistle to be false counterfaite answereth thus Muliò minus c. Much lesse doth the Catholike Church Cont. Crescon lib. 3. cap. 80. regard it whose cause we plead against you from which confidently resting vpon so many diuine testimonies no humane testimonies of any maÌ„ be they true or false can take away that truth which it inioyeth forbeare such things I am but one man the Churches cause is â—n hand amoÌ„g vs not mine the Churches I say which hath learned of her redeemer to put her trust in no maÌ„ To conclude make not the simple people beleeue that we bring into coÌ„parison the interpretations of this age with the interpretations of the ancient Fathers which is a meere calumnious slander of yours We compare not mens interpretations with mens but Gods with mens God hath so tempered the Scriptures that things plainly spokeÌ„ do interpret others not so plaine 2. Cor. 3. 5. That the faith of Gods children should not bee in the wisedome of men but in the power of God Let the cause question be thus propounded and then none of the sheepe of Christ will euer make question of the matter PAPIST Fourthly concerning generall Councels I say that they cannot possiby erre in matters of faith for then might we lawfully disobey them and Christ willeth vs to take him as an Heathen or a Publicane that will not obey the Church then also should Hell gates preuaile against it contrarie to our Sauiours promise Then were Matth. 18. 17. Matth. 16. 18. 1. Tim. 3. 15. it not also the pillar and ground of truth as S. Paul affirmeth We therefore that imbrace the definitions of generall Councels possesse the true sense of the Scriptures and not the Protestants that refuse to stand to their iudgement PROTESTANT If Augustine said true as he is before alleaged that the former general Councels haue bin corrected by the later then surely in his iudgment the former must erre and one of them without doubt did erre But what say you to the determination of the Councell of Constance and Basile which you deny not to haue beene generall by whom the Pope is made De Baptis cont Donat. lib. 2. c. 3. inferior to the Councell Did they erre in it or not Albertus Pighiâ—s spareth not to affirme that they decreed plainelie against nature against the manifest Scriptures against all antiquitie and against the catholike faith of Christ So when generall Councels determine not for your tooth you will not sticke to charge them with error and shifts enough you haue to auoide them either they were not gathered by the Pope or not subscribed by the Pope or thinges were violently caried in them as your Melchior Canus obiecteth against Lib. 5. cap. vlt. diuerse Councels and specially against the sixt generall Councel in Trullo which in many points distasteth you And when the account is cast vp it is the Pope that cannot erre for those onely determinations of Councels go for current with you that are confirmed by the head which is the Pope But let vs see your strong reasons whereby you prooue that generall Councels cannot erre First you say Then might we disobey them And Christ willeth vs to take him as an heathen and a publican that will not heare the Church Let vs see your reason in forme If generall Councels may erre then may we disobey them
But we may not disobey them Therefore c. How prooue you that we may not disobey them Thus. If he that heareth not the Church be to be taken as an heathen or publican then may we not disobey generall Councels But he that heareth not the Church is to be taken as an heathen or publican Therefore we may not disobey generall Councels The Proposition of this second syllogisme standing in greatest neede of proofe you leaue it altogether vnprooued and so after your maner you begge that alwaies which is in question For in the words of Scripture by you abused you should haue prooued First that the word Heare is to be extended to all matters generally Secondly that by the Church are meant onely generall Councels Thirdly that the Church is to be heard howsoeuer it iudge which points except you prooue the consequence inferred in the Proposition will not follow First therefore the matter heere referred to the Church is not decision of doctrines but censure of scandals as Chrysostome vpon the place obserueth Now will it follow He that obeyeth not the Churches censure in matter of scandall giuen to his brother is to be taken as an heathen or publican Therefore Councels may not be disobeyed whatsoeuer they teach in matter of faith and doctrine Secondly must we expect a generall Councel for redresse of euery scandall committed against a brother by him that will not be brought to amendment by more priuate admonition Did not the Church of Corinth censure the scandall of the incestuous person Had not the Church of 1. Cor. 5. 2. Thes 3. 14. Thessalonica power to censure the inordinate walkers And hath not euery particular Church power to censure all scandals within themselues By your reason then wee may not disobey particular Churches in their derisions of Doctrine neither can they erre any more then generall Councels which your selues will not yeeld and the errours of the Church of Corinth doe gaine say To shew the insufficiencie of your proofe I will set by it this argument Hee that will not heare a particular Church censuring in matter of scandall is to be helde as an heathen or publican Therefore wee may not disobey a particular Church in matter of doctrine The first part you cannot denie the consequent I knowe you will not yeeld such is the force of your forcible reason Thirdly doth not the place expresly limit the censure of the Church whereunto obedience must be giuen First it is supposed in the text that a brother hath trespassed against a brother Secondly that it cannot be denied but he hath done so Thirdly that his fault is tolde him as alone and with two or three witnesses so by the Church Lastly that the party offending conuict of the offence and iustly censured by the Church obeyeth not But if either the brother had not trespassed or had not beene conuicted and so the Church had vniustly censured him or if the Church had corruptly imposed any thing vpon him either to be beleeued or to be done was he then not hearing to be taken as a publican or an heathen Our Sauiour Christ saith not so For this had beene to giue tyrannicall power ouer mens soules and consciences into the hands of the Church which our Sauiour neuer did Now if wee should graunt you that hearing of the Church in this place might be extended to matter of Doctrine if by like proportion you suppose that the determination of the Church is agreeable to the Scriptures and that the Church by the Scriptures approoueth their determination to the consciences of the faithfull as we then graunt you that we may not disobey so this will helpe your cause nothing at all who will not submit the sentence of generall Councels to be tried by the Scriptures but maketh it superior to the Scriptures and consequently Lord ouer mens consciences which as the Apostle scrbiddeth to 1. Pet. 5. 1. the elders of the Church in all seuerall Churches so doth he also to the elders assembled in agenerall Councell For in the Councell of the Apostles at Ierusalem by the mouth of Iames both Peter and the rest lay for the foundation of their Act. 15. 15. sentence the words of Scripture To thu agree the wordes of the Prophets Your second reason is Then should also â—ell gates preuaile against it contrarie to our Sauiours promise Let vs see this reason also in forme Hell gates preuaile against euerie one that may erre But hell gates preuaile not against the Church Therefore the Church may not erre First you conclude not the question Which is not whether the Church may erre but whether generall Councels may erre But neither are generall Councels so large as the onely visible Church being but speciall members assembled out of the whole whose errour may not be imputed no not to the whole visible Church neither is the visible Church the whole Church no not the whole militant Church and therefore although the gates of hell cannot preuaile against the Church yet they may preuaile against generall Councels Secondly the Church may erre and yet hell gates not preuaile against it For the Proposition of the former syllogisme containing your reason is not true The gates of hell doe not preuaile against euery one that erreth Peter erred both in matter of fact and in matter of faith His errors in matter of fact are knowen to be many and not denied by you His error in matter of faith was in iudging it vnlawfull to eate of things common yet did not the gates of hell Act. 10 14. preuaile against him Thirdly the gates of hell not preuailing against the whole militant Church may yet preuaile against the visible parts of this Church and in some age or ages It followeth not therefore that if the gates of hell preuaile against the visible Churches of some age that therefore they doe preuaile against the whole militant Church Where be the famous Churches of Achain of Galatia of Macedonia nay what a handfull is the remnant of the Church now in a corner of Europe principally knowen by the name of the Church to the large circuit of the Church both in the Apostles time and after spread ouer the whole world Will you say the gates of hell haue preuailed against the Church because they haue preuailed against some Churches so many so famous in some age or ages The Church of Christ may be more and lesse occumenicall and yet the Church of Christ still against which the gates of hell neither haue nor euer shall preuaile and yet may preuaile against the Churches of Achaia Galatia Macedonia and many others yea against the once famous Church of Rome as they haue done so that the faithfull citie may become an harlot Wherefore begin Isa 1. 21. once to be ashamed of this sophistrie The gates of hell cannot prenaile against the Church of Christ Therfore not against a generall Councell which is but some of the many churches of one