Selected quad for the lemma: ground_n
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A83012
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The confident questionist questioned: or, the examination of the doctrine delivered by Mr. Thomas Willes in certain queries. Published by Mr. Jeremiah Ives. Examined by counter-queries. By N.E. with a letter of Mr. Tho. Willes.
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N. E.
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1658
(1658)
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Wing E18; Thomason E934_3; ESTC R207678
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33,986
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58
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there was no such Necessity then must he needs acknowledge the Popish Bishops to have power of Ordination for as much as there was no other Ministers to ordain and from them they had received Ordination So that which way soever hee should turn their Call would appear to bee clear and certain Neither could the opinion of the Receivers null or annihilate the truth of their Call which could not depend upon their opinion but must needs consist in the conformity of their Ordination as to the substance of it to the primitive Institution or the necessity of the susception of the work of the Ministry as in an extraordinary case without Ordination But hee refusing either to receive satisfaction from or to make any direct Reply unto this fair Proposal manifested his intents by offering an open opposition to both in a publick Dispute if hee might bee admitted thereunto notwithstanding his Concession of both principles and thereby manifested his desire of contention rather than love of Truth and Peace the great Interests of all good Christians and upon this account his offer was and I conceive most justly rejected For my part I know no ground wee have in the Gospel to admit the enemies of the Truth and open opposites to the Gospel-Ministry as are the Sect of the Anabaptists publickly to dispute in Christian Assemblies against our Doctrine and Ministry which wee hold forth in concurrence with the universal Christian Church from the Word and Gospel Though I do beleeve there may bee a sufficient ground for dispute against the enemies of the Truth and true Religion when the Gospel cannot well by other means get footing or it may bee conducible for the further propagation of it amongst such as have not embraced it What ground there may bee for some particular dispute upon some special occasion with special Cautions and Rules to regulate it I shall not here define but only say such things are to bee ordered by Prudence according to the general Rules of the holy Scripture Thus as to that which you last desired I have I hope in the first place given you some satisfaction Only this I le adde that I received from him and some of those that were with him what I told them I expected from them from some words they spake unto that purpose even an unchristian-like abuse in slanderous and reproachful reports that I could not make good my Calling to the Ministry nor maintain in private what I had delivered in publick But besides the Testimony of persons of credit that were then present I hope I shall bee able through divine Assistance to evidence that I can make good the doctrine I have delivered Now as for your other Questions I shall answer them in order 1 As for what I spake concerning the baptizing of the children of wicked Parents I spake only as might plainly appear to them that heard mee of such as being under the outward Administration of the Covenant of Grace were to bee accounted Members of the Visible Church till juridically ejected by excommunication And I see no reason why the children of such Parents may not bee baptized under the Gospel as well as the children of the wicked Jews were to bee circumcized under the Law When God in the times of the Gospel doth more largely extend the grace of the Covenant what ground have we to abridge any of any such Ordinance whereby that grace may bee communicated And do not wee often see that God passes by the children of good and godly Parents and chuses the children of those that are evil and wicked And if it bee the outward subjection unto the external Administration of the Covenant of grace in the Parents that gives children right to this outward priviledge of Baptisme why are not the children of wicked Parents living under this outward Administration to bee admitted to Baptisme of equal right with the children of those that are truly godly and religious Now it must needs bee the Parents outward profession of the true Religion or submission to the Administration of the Covenant of grace or the inward possession of the grace of the Covenant that must give them right for their children to Baptisme The latter it cannot bee viz. the inward possession of the grace of the Covenant because this falls not under mans cognizance but now visible Administration requires some visible Evidence of the parties interest in or right to that Ordinance which is to bee visibly administred And therefore the latter it must needs bee viz. an outward profession of the true Religion an outward submission to the Administration of the Covenant of grace And therefore the children of wicked Parents being members of the Visible Church and so having a true right in Foro Ecclesiae to the Sacrament of Baptisme ought as well to bee baptized as the children of Parents are to repeat the very words as I delivered them in publick the more need there is that their children should bee solemnly engaged to God I judge it very necessary that a solemn obligation to the duties of Christianity should by Baptisme bee laid upon them But I see not why Mr. Ives should enter his exception against the baptizing of the children of wicked Parents as such unless hee sought to colour his opinion which hath ever been exploded in the Christian Church when it is well known hee is against the baptizing of any children at all 2 As for what I spake of the fifth Monarchy-men I mean that generation which in these daies is called by that name take my very words at large which were but briefly rehearsed in the Sermon excepted against for the correction of a mistake under which they were censured take them thus some there are that do openly decry the Ministry their Call Maintenance and Administrations as Anti-Evangelical and Antichristian Such are these foul-mouthed Sectaries Seducers and Hereticks Quakers Anabaptists and Fifth-Monarchy-men whose breath is the very smoake of the bottomless Pit smelling strong of the Brimstone of Hell This I spake in allusion to that whereby such like Errors Heresies and Blasphemies as are vented now adays by men of these Sects are prophetically represented Rev. 9.2 3. as some do interpret it If there are not some of all these Sects as bad as I have represented them I confess I am under a great mistake and I could heartily wish it was but onely my errour 3 And as for that charge that I should tell any Gentleman that I was informed that Mr. Ives was a Jesuite and should stirre him up upon that account to apprehend him I must needs reckon it amongst those slanders and reproaches that have been most injuriously raised against mee For though I suppose you are not ignorant that Mr. Ives is openly and commonly reported to bee a Jesuite though upon what grounds I know not whether because of his erroneous principles and extravagant Practices in his intrusion into the Office and yet opposing the Call of
it yea and when he hath nothing to say but the Parents may be as godly as if they were of his Church therefore I could wish I knew how to convince my self that hee doth not baptize the children of those of his own Church out of self-ends rather than out of respects to the Ordinance it self Again hath hee not too evidently asserted that the Ordination of the Ministry of England is Antichristian it will follow then that it is unlawful and that all they have baptized are unlawfully baptized must hee not then be for Anabaptisme may we not therefore justly fear that hee and his are in great danger to fall to Anabaptisme as others of that way have done how doth my heart tremble whilst thus I argue I could heartily wish I could not plead so strongly to sadden honest hearts and to please such as you are Query 42. Where as you said that the Fifth-Monarchy-men were as the smoak of the bottomeless pit and that their Principles did rase the Foundation of Religion I quere whether they were not called Fifth-Monarchy-men because they did beleeve that when the Caldean Monarchy and the Monarchy of the Medes and Persians and the Grecian and Rom in Monarchy should bee wholly extirpated that then the Lord himself should set up a Fifth-Monarchy which should succeed these four of whose Kingdome there should be no end according to that of Dan. 7.23 24. Counter-Query This you speak of may be the reason of the Apellation of Fifth-Monarchy-men But is it to yours or my purpose to examine whether there is sufficient ground for this Opinion I do confess there are divers sober men of this judgement But did not Mr. Willes speak of the Fifth-Monarchy-men that are so infamously famous for decrying both Magistracy and Ministry what is this but the smoak of the bottomless pit Query 43. If this principle were grounded upon this and such like sayings in Scripture what reason had you to cry out against it Counter-Query Was not this reason enough setting aside that the point its self is so clearly questionable that with such raving rage they joyn'd together with others to cry down and more such standing Ordinances Query 44. If you say It was because of the evil practice of some of them in these latter times I do thereupon query If this bee a good Argument Some of their practices were bad Ergo their principle is bad Whether a man might not have said the same both of the Episcopal and Presbyterian way since that some of them were such as ingaged the Nation in war and blood more than ever those were like to do you call Fifth-Monarchy-men but this surely is un-man-like reasoning Counter-Query Did Mr. Willes at all speake for or against the Opinion of the Fifth Monarchy-men as such Did hee not so emphatically express Fifth Monarchy-men and upon such an account and occasion speaking then against those that decry'd the Ministry that you as well as I and many more might easily know he meant those that this City not long since rung of so much those great decryers of Magistracy and Ministry Is it not unman-like arguing then from so poor an Argument to lay bloud upon on the heads of Episcopal-men and Presbyterians If the War was carried on by some for a while with honest intentions yet you may see by my nineteenth Counter-query whose hands I guesse to be most embrued in bloud Query 45. Whereas you would seem to blame Mr. Bookes for harsh Judgement I query whether your Judgement was charitable when you decryed the Fifth Monarchy-men as so many monstrous Hereticks that rase the Foundation without any kind of exception especially considering what Ground there is for it in Gods Word and also that it was the opinion of many men both antient and modern for Justin Martyr in his Apology to Antonius the Emperour asserts the thousand years Reign of Christ upon Earth and he further saith in his Dialogue against Tryphon that is was the belief OF ALL CHRISTIANS exactly Orthodox And of latter times we have Mr. Robert Matton Mr. Archer Mr. Mead Doctor Twisse Mr. Ephraim Hewit Mr. Parker of New-England Doctor Homes Mr. Thomas Goodwin and Mr. Joseph Caryl who upon his perusal of Doctor Homes his Book saith That it is truth confirmed by Scripture and the testimony of Ancient and Moderne Writers of all sorts Counter-Query Doe they not strike at the Foundation whilst they would pluck downe such corner stones Is this harst Judgement probably to you it is if you only fear Magistracy and hate the Ministry I suppose those you hereafter mention were not guilty of this evil of denying Magistracy and Ministry Are all these then you mention of the same opinon as to Christs Personal Reigne But this is not a place now to consider it as for Mr. Brookes we may guesse him as harsh to Mr. Willes as by his misrepresenting his words and insinuating those unchristian charges of Deceiver Hypocrite c. appears as he is too facile in his judgement to Dr. Everard to whose Book which I judge to be very erroneous I had almost said Blasphemous hee hath writ an Epistle very much commendatory to which Mr Barker hath set his hand and I wonder by what trick they got an Imprimatur to it from that Reverend Pious and Learned Mr. Caryl Query 46. And whereas you told me when I was at your House you would stop my mouth I cannot think you meant to stop my mouth with sound Arguments for that you refused to doe though I did desire it of you once and againe and if you meant to doe it it must be either by a secular power or animating the people to rudeness for I know no other way seeing you refused the first then I query whether in so doing supposing me to have erred you walk according to that Rule that tells you that with meeknesse you should instruct those that oppose themselves c. 2 Tim. 2.24 Counter-Query If Arguments would have stopt your mouth ought you not to have been silent now Why did you not answer in these Queries that Argument which hee urged to you at his house for your satisfaction which hee mentions in his Letter and which I have laid down in my six and twentieth Counter-Query But if your tongue be an unruly Member and will not be quieted with Reason ought it not to be quieted some other way And if those that oppose themselves will not bee instructed with meekness in an orderly way ought they then to be allowed in publick disorders and oppositions Are you not sensible that all Churches would be filled with nothing but disputes and disorders If this should be permitted may not every man plead for this liberty as well as you would you desire this should be if you had not a design to bring confusions into our publick worship and to trouble the weak with doubtful disputations Query 47. Doth not the Scripture say That the Minister of Christ must bee an