Selected quad for the lemma: ground_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
ground_n	believe_v	faith_n	testimony_n	1,573	5	8.5071	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A91884	A moderate answer to Mr. Prins full reply to certaine observations on his first twelve questions: vvherein all his reasons and objections are candidly examined and refuted. A short description of the congregationall way discovered. Some arguments for indulgence to tender consciences modestly propounded. By the same author.	Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.; Robinson, Henry, 1605?-1664?, attributed name.	1645 (1645)	Wing R1676; Thomason E26_20; ESTC R13022	43,033	54

Churches censuring an offender and this is strength enough to every action and we need not fear what the matter is that is to be handled when Christ will be present we have no such promise to any societie else As for the latter part of the quaere saith he that the Saints think Christ is King alone over his Churches and hath not left them to substitutes and the politick considerations of men to be governed by if saith he he means it onely of matters of faith it may passe as tolerable but if he means of externall Ecclesiasticall government discipline or order in the Church he must renounce his oath of Allegeance his late Protestation Nationall vow and Covenant c. In which observe two things First that to hold Christ is King in matters of faith and internall government over mens souls may passe but as a tolerable thing how to passe by this expression with a lesse character then sleighting Christs kingly office I know not bone Deus and good Christians to what passe is Religion come if this must passe but as a tolerable doctrine that Christ is sole King of souls and is it not undeniably without controversies as true as God himself and is it not horrid blasphemie to have the least thought to the contrary the truth is I wondred when I saw such a mistake fall from Mr. Prynnes pen it s no marvell if other things be intolerable to passe if this be but tolerable Secondly to hold Christ King in externall government is against the Oath of Allegiance c. who told you that the meaning of any Covenant or Protestation intends any such thing We cannot think the Parliament would be so injurious to Christ as to take away any of his Kingly office from him as Mr. Prynne would needs affirme we doubt not but they have learnt to give up the Scepter and supreame power of governing the Church to Christ as Christ hath given the supreame power of the Common-wealth to them In what clause of the Protestation or Covenant doth this lie I never found it yet I know none that ever protested that Christ was not sole King of the Church and the prescriber of laws to his Church shew me the clause and I will unsubscribe to that particular as being most derogatory to the honour of our heavenly Prince and Lord Jesus Christ In his answer to my second quaere saith he he first * Charity would have said weakly wilfully misrecites it and then infers a blind obedience from it to all superior commands be they never so unjust or contrarie to the Word whereas my question onely speaks of lawfull decrees and consonant to the Word c. to which every Christian is bound in conscience to submit Rom. 13. 1. to 6. 1 Pet. 2. 14 15. Tit. 3. 1. If any man deny this he must renounce not onely his Christianitie but his Allegiance and humanitie too For answer to this I will not enter into that common place how farre the power of Magistrates may reach in matters of Religion to the binding the conscience though I wish it were rightly stated that Christ might not lose his due as they might not theirs Yet I desire humbly to propound one argument to Mr. Prynne which hath a little puzled my thoughts and I desire him not to mis-interpret it as if I went to undermine the priviledge of Parliament if the Magistrate must be obeyed as having power to command in matters of Worship it is either qua a Magistrate or as a Christian Magistrate if as a Magistrate it holds in all as well Heathen as Christian power being equall alike in both as they are Magistrates for Civill power is not as the Papists say founded in Grace or Religion but in the compact and agreement of the Common-wealth whatever belongs to a man as a man belongs to every man be he rich or poore whatever belongs to a Magistrate as a Magistrate belongs to every Magistrate be he Christian or Heathen and then the Heathen Magistrates Subjects are as much bound in Conscience to obey what Worship they set up as Christian Subjects are to obey theirs whom they are under If as a Christian Magistrate then shew your rule these Scriptures Rom 13. c. are spoken in generall of power limited to none nay they prove directly against you for the Magistrates the Apostles and Primitive Saints lived under were Heathens not Christians Againe if as Christian then he must be obeyed because he commands or for what he commands either because of his owne power or the authority of the things themselves if for the former then its qua a Magistrate and so it belongs to all his Authority not arising from his Christianity but his Magistracie if for the latter then it s not the Magistrate but the Word of God that must be obeyed now that must be seen before it can be followed there is no greater eating Worme in the Power of Magistracie then to found it in Religion for thence the Jesuites infer undenyably if Government belong to Magistrates as Christian as religious then he that is not a Christian Magistrate is an usurper and may be deposed at pleasure nay indeed he is no more then a private man when once excommunicated and all their ensuing commands are not to be obeyed yea it will come to this that the Church hath power over States and Kingdomes for the Church is to deale in all matters of Religion most powerfully now that is to get States to be their servants and exercise what power the Church pleaseth upon offenders besides if they have power to command I have no power actually to obey unlesse my conscience be convinced of the lawfulnesse of it for whatever is not of faith is sin to the reason I urged for this he answers nothing yet further to confirme him 1. It s neither a humane nor religious act that is not done with understanding God would not have us to believe him without wee see the ground of it in the Word All Protestant Writers give to every man judician privatae discretionis they give the testimony of mans conscience as one way wherby we know the Word of God to be the Word For any to require a man to practise that in the Worship of God upon paine of Schisme arrogancie c. before a man seeth it to be commanded of God is to require more then God requires who would have every man practise according to his light in naturall Worship indeed God requires obedience of all alike because they all once knew how to serve God God gave Adam for all his and men have lost them by their owne default and though they should never heare the Word yet they shall be condemned for not serving God in that way for it was ingraven in every mans heart naturally but it s not so in instituted Worship which depends meerly on Gods will for in this God requires we should search to know but

for that which God directly appoints is more spirituall then what man appoints in Gods worship though for the kinde more noble and the use in reason far more excellent To this he saith in generall thus That if I or any other can shew him such a patterne so clearly delineated in the new Testament as that in the old he will beleeve my sequell else he shall judge it a meere independent Argument to this before Master Prin knows its a good way of reasoning if the same ground hold the same consequence we are sure for your Presbyteriall-government you cannot have the least direct Texts and you are faine to go to miserable extorted consequences c. there is nothing that we hold but we will shew in cleare Scriptures as before where did you or any one ever read of either name or thing of a classicall Presbytery of a Provinciall or Nationall Synod either alone or by way of subordination He goes on in way of Answer and saith if this consequence will follow then this must needs also God prescribed to Moses the expresse patterne and fashion of Aarons and his sons garments c. under the Law Exod. Ergo He hath likewise shewed the expresse patterne fashion and colour of all Bishops Presbyters and Ministers garments under the Gospel How weake this absurdity is that he labours to fasten on this Argument let wise men judge First I say not That what ever was commanded in the old Testament must be commanded now for the matter of it if my meaning had been so this consequence had been good but when I argue from the exact description of every thing in the old Testament to the like in the new I argue from the equity and common reason that is in the thing there was something in the Ceremonies and in their forme of worship that was Juris Moralis Naturalis the equity of which remaines for ever and the Apostle argues from it in severall places as that God should be worshipped after his own way and according to his own prescript not through mens inventions c. As for the matter of the things commanded in the old Testament these things that were Ceremonies then and had a spirituall signification are but circumstances now and not to be regarded as Place Garments c. You shall finde the Apostle arguing thus from this very head and instance in that Heb. 8. 5. See that thou do all things according to the patterne in the mount he speaks this of Christs Priestly Office and proves that Christ was a true and reall Priest and he proves it by this because all the Priests of the Law served but to the example of heavenly things and they had their Commission onely from heaven God gave it Moses in the mount surely then Christ saith the Apostle must needs be a reall high Priest in whom all these things are fulfilled eminently and he instanceth in this of the Tabernacle which could not prove it but by reason of the equity of the thing and its one of Calvins Observations from the place Hic docemur perversos esse omnes cultus adulterinos quos sibi proprio ingenio citra mandatum Dei comminisci homines permittunt nam cum praescribat Deus ut fiant omnia secundum suam regulam nihil penitus alienum facere licet He applies this to all worship in generall and that from the equity of the thing it selfe To quell this Argument saith he further 1. The patterne in the mount was meant onely of the materialls forme utensils of the Tabernacle not of the Government and Discipline therefore very impertinent to prove a seeled form of Church-government Answ I never said that the Tabernacle was a patterne of Church-government and therefore that will not answer for grant it to be a prescribing of the materialls c. yet there is as great a reason that God should prescribe the forme of government as that and God did prescribe a forme of government to them from which they could not vary I onely instance in this because the Apostle makes use of it to prove as different the thing as this there was nothing to be done either in Church or Common-wealth but was discovered to Moses as a rule for him to walk by See Exo 2● 21 22 23 24 25 26 27. Chapter which he could not vary from in a tittle there is a great reason it should be so now because the Ordinance and Government of the Church is more spirituall The Materials of the Tabernacle he grants were exactly prescribed and why not then the particulars of Government seeing it is as great an Ordinance as that Secondly he saith It was shewed to Moses the Temporall Magistrate not to Aaron or any independant Priest and therefore if there be any consequence from this Kings Parliaments c. ought to prescribe and set up such a Church-government as is according to the word c. I answer it s no matter at all neither doth it a jot prejudice my consequence to whom it was discovered whether Moses or Aaron they were not to vary from it and there is as good reason for Church-government as that but let me ask a question or two of you seeing you have urged that First Was this discovered to him Quae a Magistrate under that consideration onely or no Secondly If to him as a Magistrate then where will you finde a correlate to Moses now Thirdly Whether as a Magistrate he durst prescribe any thing more in a tittle or any thing besides the patterne in the mount let Magistrates shew us what they have received immediatly as the minde of God and we will as willingly take it from them as any durst Moses though chiefe Magistrate in a prudentiall way for the good of the people prescribe any thing besides the patternes much lesse may any now who never had the minde of God revealed to them as Moses had In fine saith he If there be any expresse unalterable form pray inform me why it was not as punctually described in the new Testament as the forme of the Tabernacle To which is answered againe that it is as punctually described as hath been formerly shewen Nay saith he why was the Tabernacle altered into a Temple different from it and why did the second Temple vary from the first in the same Church and Nation I answer I never said that God tied himselfe so as he could not alter the frame of Government but that no man could if God will change the Tabernacle into a Temple it s his pleasure and that is our rule but none else could do it had David or Solomon done it without a word from heaven what thanks would they have had It was a sinne in Jeroboam to set up places of worship in Dan and Bethel when God said they should go onely to Jerusalem though afterwards God changed it and made every place fit to lift up pure hands to God in Besides God changed

Then first why do you separate from them as no true Christians Answ I answer in generall We separate from none we know to be true Churches but if you mean by your true Church the whole bulk of the nation whom you call a Church we must needs separate from it for we acknowledge no such Church Yet Secondly Though we acknowledge not England as a nation to be a true Church yet we acknowledge many true Churches in England with whom yet we cannot communicate in Church Ordinances because of many personall defilements among them or yet purged out and if they would give us leave in our communion with them to professe against these corruptions which we think defile them we should not scruple communion with them You know that one may be a reall man yee so corrupted with diseases and sores that it may be dangerous to come nigh him or eat or drink with him Glad should we be to joyn with them if they were so reformed and that mixture taken away that as nigh as could be none but such as had a right to Christ might partake of the Ordinances untill then you must excuse us if though we think many to be true Churches we cannot actually communicate with them You tell us saith he that neither I nor any Synods nor this Synod is infallible c. Therefore men are not bound to obey their decrees on penalty of sin To which he answers onely by way of Querie May not you and your Independent Ministers erre as well others O yes surely therefore they arrogate not such a power to make Laws for others as for that of the Major Votes it s answered before How ever slight Master Pryn makes of this reason yet untill he hath answered he must give us leave to beleeve it For if Synods have power to binde the conscience it is either because they can enjoyn nothing but truth for truth onely binds the conscience and so are infallible or else because of their own power and authority I know no other ground for it Is this good Logick or Divinity saith he Good Ministers may and do erre in some points of Divinity therefore we will beleeve them in none In that you say true there is neither Logick nor Divinity but the Consequence as I draw it is this Ministers may erre therefore none are absolutely bound to beleeve every thing they say as Scripture and so to sin if they obey not for it s a certain truth not probable that binds the conscience Certain I say either as I apprehend it or in regard of it self if I am bound to beleeve what ever they say that are in authority who may erre then my conscience is subject to errour as well as truth for that which is commanded may be errour yea if I think it errour yet I must obey it and this holds in every thing as well as any thing for in all things that is commanded they who command are to go by their own ●…dgements of the truth of the thing that they enjoyn and their judgements may erre yet I am bound to obey and sin if I do not Nay suppose what they command to be a truth yet I think it an errour and so it is to me my conscience so judging yet I am bound to obey else I sin The Lord learn you and those in authority more tendernesse to Saints consciences that you may not put such a yoke upon our necks that neither we nor our fathers were able to bear FINIS