Selected quad for the lemma: ground_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
ground_n	believe_v	faith_n	save_v	1,472	5	6.9646	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A95338	Truths conflict with error. Or, Universall redemption controverted, in three publike disputations. The first between M. John Goodwin, and M. Vavasour Powell, in Coleman-street London. The other two between M. John Goodwin, and M. John Simpson, at Alhallowes the great in Thames-street: in the presence of divers ministers of the City of London, and thousands of others.	Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.; Weekes, John.; Powell, Vavasor, 1617-1670.; Simpson, John, 17th cent.	1650 (1650)	Wing T3167B; Thomason E597_2; ESTC R202232	95,080	122

of_o the_o elect_n except_o you_o say_v whosoever_o of_o the_o elect_n believe_v shall_v be_v save_v and_o whosoever_o of_o they_o believe_v not_o shall_v perish_v m._n goodwin_n if_o you_o will_v precise_o urge_v the_o sense_n of_o the_o participle_n which_o be_v the_o present_a tense_n than_o it_o will_v be_v thus_o whoever_o do_v now_o at_o the_o present_n believe_v he_o shall_v not_o perish_v and_o consequent_o you_o exclude_v all_o other_o answer_v no._n m._n goodwin_n then_o do_v not_o stick_v to_o the_o precise_a tense_n but_o whosoever_o do_v or_o shall_v at_o any_o time_n believe_v and_o suppose_v this_o to_o be_v your_o sense_n yet_o the_o same_o absurdity_n will_v follow_v if_o you_o admit_v any_o other_o sense_n of_o the_o word_n world_n but_o only_o the_o generality_n of_o mankind_n m._n powell_n for_o my_o part_n i_o have_v speak_v what_o be_v my_o judgement_n and_o conscience_n in_o the_o thing_n that_o the_o word_n may_v be_v render_v thus_o without_o destroy_v the_o sense_n of_o they_o god_n so_o love_v the_o world_n etc._n etc._n that_o whosoever_o believe_v or_o shall_v believe_v now_o whosoever_o that_o word_n may_v have_v relation_n to_o the_o world_n that_o be_v unto_o the_o elect_a world_n it_o may_v distribute_v it_o unto_o they_o and_o not_o destroy_v the_o sense_n m._n goodw._n do_v but_o see_v now_o and_o view_v it_o yourself_o whether_o this_o be_v a_o commodious_a sense_n worthy_a to_o fasten_v upon_o the_o holy_a ghost_n to_o speak_v at_o such_o a_o rate_n god_n so_o love_v the_o world_n of_o the_o elect_a that_o whosoever_o of_o the_o elect_a shall_v believe_v shall_v not_o perish_v but_o etc._n etc._n and_o whether_o this_o interpretation_n do_v not_o clear_o suppose_v that_o there_o be_v a_o possibility_n that_o some_o of_o these_o elect_n may_v perish_v wherefore_o else_o do_v he_o interpose_v that_o clause_n that_o whosoever_o believe_v shall_v not_o perish_v for_o take_v your_o notion_n of_o election_n there_o election_n give_v they_o a_o perfect_a and_o absolute_a right_n to_o salvation_n insomuch_o that_o there_o need_v neither_o die_v on_o christ_n part_n nor_o believe_v on_o their_o part_n to_o give_v they_o a_o right_a thereunto_o if_o they_o be_v elect_v from_o eternity_n what_o great_a or_o full_a title_n can_v there_o be_v to_o any_o creature_n or_o right_o to_o such_o a_o possession_n or_o inheritance_n as_o salvation_n be_v than_o the_o peremptory_a and_o absolute_a designation_n of_o god_n thereunto_o salvation_n be_v god_n to_o give_v to_o who_o he_o please_v and_o if_o he_o do_v it_o to_o any_o person_n simple_o and_o absolute_o as_o they_o be_v his_o elect_n they_o shall_v be_v save_v whether_o they_o believe_v or_o no_o i_o only_o add_v this_o to_o show_v the_o nonsense_n of_o such_o a_o construction_n of_o the_o word_n m._n powell_n to_o make_v it_o appear_v that_o it_o be_v not_o nonsense_n i_o illustrate_v it_o thus_o the_o parliament_n of_o england_n suppose_v they_o make_v such_o a_o promise_n to_o the_o army_n or_o unto_o other_o that_o whoever_o take_v the_o engagement_n they_o shall_v be_v protect_v by_o their_o power_n and_o so_o take_v of_o it_o they_o come_v under_o their_o protection_n but_o now_o will_v you_o say_v that_o of_o necessity_n it_o must_v be_v suppose_v here_o that_o some_o will_v deny_v to_o take_v this_o engagement_n m._n good_n i_o go_v along_o with_o your_o similitude_n so_o far_o that_o god_n make_v a_o proposition_n as_o the_o parliament_n to_o the_o army_n &_o other_o that_o be_v to_o all_o the_o world_n that_o whosoever_o take_v the_o engagement_n that_o be_v believe_v they_o shall_v be_v protect_v i.e._n they_o shall_v be_v save_v this_o now_o be_v savoury_n &_o have_v substance_n in_o it_o it_o feed_v the_o understanding_n of_o a_o man_n but_o now_o if_o the_o parliament_n have_v such_o a_o power_n over_o the_o will_n of_o some_o particular_a man_n as_o to_o cause_v they_o to_o take_v this_o engagement_n and_o know_v certain_o that_o no_o other_o will_v take_v it_o then_o to_o make_v such_o a_o proposal_n to_o they_o that_o whosoever_o will_v take_v it_o they_o shall_v be_v protect_v this_o will_v not_o be_v a_o proposition_n worthy_a of_o they_o m._n cranford_n the_o point_n which_o you_o be_v to_o prove_v be_v that_o there_o be_v a_o absurdity_n in_o this_o sense_n to_o say_v that_o god_n so_o love_v the_o elect_a that_o all_o the_o elect_a believe_v shall_v be_v save_v the_o ground_n which_o you_o give_v of_o the_o absurdity_n be_v this_o because_o according_a to_o the_o judgement_n of_o m._n powell_n the_o decree_n of_o election_n be_v such_o that_o there_o be_v no_o need_n of_o the_o death_n of_o christ_n nor_o believe_v to_o bring_v they_o to_o salvation_n m._n goodwin_n that_o be_v a_o thing_n which_o i_o add_v by_o the_o way_n but_o to_o pass_v that_o god_n have_v make_v such_o a_o decree_n that_o none_o though_o elect_v shall_v be_v save_v but_o in_o and_o through_o believe_v he_o have_v link_v together_o faith_n and_o election_n m._n john_n simpson_n i_o shall_v desire_v m._n powell_n be_v now_o to_o answer_v that_o he_o will_v not_o speak_v so_o large_o as_o he_o do_v but_o only_o deny_v m._n goodwin_n proposition_n and_o put_v he_o to_o prove_v it_o for_o the_o thing_n be_v yet_o to_o prove_v that_o there_o be_v nonsense_n in_o that_o say_n and_o it_o be_v that_o which_o i_o suppose_v will_v not_o be_v prove_v these_o seven_o year_n m._n goodwin_n if_o i_o have_v no_o sense_n nor_o taste_v of_o nonsense_n possible_o you_o may_v if_o not_o i_o can_v relieve_v you_o nor_o you_o i_o as_o yet_o and_o therefore_o let_v we_o read_v the_o word_n again_o so_o god_n love_v the_o world_n that_o etc._n etc._n that_o all_o believe_v in_o he_o shall_v not_o perish_v but_o etc._n etc._n now_o to_o make_v the_o word_n run_v thus_o or_o to_o give_v this_o sense_n of_o they_o so_o god_n love_v his_o elect_n that_o every_o one_o of_o these_o elect_n who_o shall_v believe_v or_o believe_v they_o shall_v not_o perish_v this_o i_o say_v be_v complete_a nonsense_n neither_o can_v you_o bring_v any_o instance_n out_o of_o the_o scripture_n nor_o from_o any_o approve_a author_n that_o be_v but_o in_o his_o common_a sense_n that_o do_v ever_o build_v such_o a_o piece_n of_o construction_n as_o this_o be_v m._n caryll_o i_o doubt_v not_o but_o there_o will_v be_v a_o very_a good_a sense_n in_o it_o to_o say_v thus_o that_o god_n so_o love_v the_o world_n that_o be_v the_o elect_a that_o whosoever_o believe_v or_o that_o all_o believe_v shall_v not_o perish_v but_o etc._n etc._n it_o be_v but_o the_o carry_v on_o of_o the_o same_o thing_n from_o one_o act_n unto_o another_o from_o the_o act_n of_o god_n unto_o the_o act_n of_o man_n the_o act_n of_o god_n be_v his_o love_n and_o the_o give_v of_o jesus_n christ_n for_o the_o redemption_n of_o his_o elect_a now_o because_o those_o shall_v never_o attain_v the_o end_n they_o shall_v never_o reach_v to_o that_o redemption_n which_o be_v intend_v for_o they_o without_o believe_v therefore_o christ_n put_v in_o that_o so_o that_o you_o must_v carry_v it_o on_o as_o to_o the_o complean_v of_o the_o person_n who_o shall_v inherit_v that_o estate_n m._n goodwin_n then_o you_o deny_v it_o to_o be_v a_o distributive_a particle_n m._n caryll_o it_o be_v a_o collective_a and_o not_o a_o distributive_a it_o be_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d m._n cranford_n this_o do_v not_o only_o show_v the_o love_n of_o god_n but_o the_o limitation_n of_o his_o love_n now_o i_o take_v it_o it_o may_v be_v sense_n in_o that_o sense_n which_o you_o give_v of_o it_o god_n show_v his_o love_n to_o his_o elect_a in_o appoint_v they_o the_o mean_n of_o their_o salvation_n god_n modify_v that_o love_n in_o bring_v they_o to_o salvation_n through_o believe_v he_o so_o love_v his_o elect_a that_o all_o they_o by_o believe_v shall_v be_v save_v m._n goodwin_n the_o question_n be_v whether_o such_o a_o sense_n be_v savoury_a and_o whether_o it_o will_v stand_v with_o the_o word_n i_o say_v it_o be_v evident_a from_o the_o follow_a word_n that_o it_o can_v be_v the_o sense_n m._n powell_n if_o it_o please_v you_o you_o have_v speak_v what_o you_o think_v good_a in_o this_o particular_a and_o these_o have_v hear_v what_o have_v be_v say_v and_o therefore_o let_v we_o refer_v it_o to_o they_o and_o pass_v to_o another_o mr._n goodwin_n there_o be_v a_o great_a deal_n more_o yet_o to_o be_v say_v to_o it_o for_o either_o it_o be_v a_o distributive_a or_o else_o it_o have_v no_o manner_n of_o substantive_n or_o person_n that_o be_v imply_v in_o it_o for_o i_o will_v fain_o know_v what_o it_o signify_v or_o what_o you_o mean_v by_o it_o it_o be_v impossible_a for_o i_o to_o prove_v that_o

the_o right_a determination_n whereof_o depend_v the_o whole_a glory_n of_o the_o grace_n of_o god_n and_o the_o whole_a comfort_n and_o salvation_n of_o mankind_n the_o whole_a glory_n of_o the_o grace_n of_o god_n depend_v upon_o it_o for_o if_o so_o be_v there_o be_v such_o a_o universal_a redemption_n of_o every_o particular_a man_n in_o the_o world_n and_o upon_o those_o term_n that_o it_o be_v hang_v open_a in_o the_o air_n catch_v that_o catch_n will_v and_o none_o be_v more_o in_o the_o eye_n of_o god_n than_o other_o in_o the_o death_n of_o his_o son_n true_o instead_o of_o maintain_v universal_a grace_n you_o maintain_v no_o grace_n at_o all_o m._n goodwin_n one_o discourse_n in_o this_o kind_n will_v but_o beget_v another_o but_o i_o shall_v prove_v god_n will_v both_o to_o yourself_o and_o other_o that_o your_o sense_n and_o opinion_n in_o restrain_v the_o death_n of_o christ_n for_o such_o and_o such_o particular_a person_n do_v whole_o dissolve_v and_o eclipse_v the_o grace_n of_o god_n and_o that_o there_o be_v no_o other_o way_n to_o set_v it_o forth_o like_a unto_o itself_o or_o worthy_a of_o god_n but_o only_o according_a to_o such_o a_o assertion_n that_o god_n do_v intend_v the_o salvation_n of_o all_o by_o the_o death_n of_o christ_n and_o that_o the_o comfort_n of_o all_o man_n and_o every_o particular_a man_n do_v depend_v upon_o it_o and_o if_o man_n will_v but_o reason_n like_o man_n or_o according_a to_o the_o scripture_n it_o be_v impossible_a that_o there_o shall_v be_v any_o ground_n of_o consolation_n upon_o any_o other_o account_n m._n simpson_n we_o have_v be_v long_o about_o this_o something_o i_o conceive_v have_v be_v speak_v for_o edification_n but_o if_o m._n goodwin_n will_v oppose_v or_o answer_v i_o will_v still_o provide_v those_o that_o shall_v oppose_v or_o answer_v he_o only_o this_o i_o desire_v that_o this_o order_n may_v be_v observe_v for_o the_o future_a that_o the_o moderator_n who_o shall_v be_v pitch_v upon_o may_v not_o speak_v any_o thing_n to_o discover_v his_o own_o judgement_n only_o to_o keep_v they_o to_o the_o question_n and_o to_o see_v the_o proposition_n prove_v that_o be_v deny_v and_o second_o i_o desire_v that_o no_o man_n may_v be_v suffer_v to_o speak_v a_o word_n but_o he_o that_o do_v oppose_v and_o he_o that_o do_v answer_v and_o if_o these_o rule_n be_v observe_v some_o good_a may_v come_v of_o it_o m._n goodwin_n i_o think_v there_o shall_v be_v a_o second_o allow_v on_o both_o side_n m._n powell_n i_o shall_v make_v bold_a to_o speak_v one_o word_n for_o my_o part_n i_o bless_v god_n that_o our_o meeting_n have_v be_v as_o it_o have_v that_o there_o have_v be_v no_o more_o contention_n or_o division_n among_o we_o and_o i_o refer_v what_o have_v be_v controvert_v to_o the_o congregation_n and_o desire_v they_o to_o judge_v of_o it_o and_o if_o m._n goodwin_n will_v engage_v further_o at_o another_o time_n there_o will_v be_v some_o to_o oppose_v he_o m._n simpson_n i_o will_v never_o undertake_v to_o dispute_v unless_o every_o man_n shall_v be_v command_v silence_n but_o the_o two_o disputant_n and_o the_o moderator_n to_o keep_v we_o to_o the_o question_n and_o m._n goodwin_n have_v at_o this_o time_n press_v his_o argument_n if_o now_o he_o will_v answer_v to_o the_o question_n there_o shall_v be_v some_o ready_a still_o to_o oppose_v m._n goodwin_n though_o i_o conceive_v the_o law_n of_o dispute_n in_o this_o kind_n will_v somewhat_o suffer_v by_o the_o observation_n of_o those_o rule_n yet_o if_o the_o truth_n will_v not_o be_v entertain_v nor_o the_o dispute_v carry_v on_o but_o upon_o that_o motion_n i_o shall_v stand_v to_o it_o the_o second_o disputation_n betwixt_o mr._n john_n goodwin_n and_o mr._n john_n simpson_n at_o all_o hallow_v the_o great_a in_o thames-street_n london_n january_n 14._o 1649._o m._n ames_n m._n griffeth_n moderator_n after_o the_o orderly_a disposal_n of_o themselves_o for_o the_o best_a advantage_n to_o the_o hearer_n mr._n goodwin_n in_o the_o gallery_n and_o mr._n simpson_n in_o the_o pulpit_n it_o begin_v thus_o m._n simpson_n sir_n if_o you_o please_v i_o shall_v speak_v only_o one_o word_n to_o the_o people_n in_o reference_n to_o our_o present_a meeting_n and_o then_o we_o will_v choose_v a_o moderator_n and_o desire_v he_o to_o speak_v a_o word_n for_o we_o to_o the_o lord_n i_o have_v only_o one_o short_a word_n to_o say_v which_o be_v to_o inform_v you_o that_o the_o business_n about_o which_o we_o be_v meet_v at_o this_o time_n it_o be_v as_o i_o conceive_v a_o ordinance_n of_o god_n we_o read_v in_o the_o 9_o of_o the_o act_n that_o paul_n dispute_v with_o the_o grecian_n and_o in_o the_o 17._o of_o the_o act_n that_o he_o dispute_v with_o the_o jew_n grecian_n and_o philosopher_n and_o in_o the_o 19_o of_o the_o act_n that_o he_o dispute_v daily_o in_o the_o school_n of_o one_o tyrannus_n and_o therefore_o my_o humble_a request_n unto_o you_o be_v that_o you_o will_v behave_v and_o demean_v yourselves_o so_o as_o people_n that_o stand_v in_o the_o presence_n of_o god_n and_o do_v apprehend_v that_o we_o have_v a_o ordinance_n of_o god_n in_o hand_n i_o know_v there_o be_v some_o weak_a objection_n which_o some_o bring_v against_o what_o i_o now_o say_v as_o first_o that_o of_o the_o apostle_n phil._n 2._o where_o he_o command_v that_o all_o thing_n be_v do_v without_o dispute_n and_o that_o in_o the_o 1._o of_o tim._n 6._o where_o he_o speak_v against_o perverse_a dispute_n but_o the_o answer_n be_v easy_a that_o he_o do_v not_o speak_v in_o either_o of_o these_o place_n against_o his_o own_o practice_n but_o against_o those_o disputation_n which_o proceed_v from_o perverseness_n and_o corruption_n in_o the_o heart_n of_o man_n another_o thing_n that_o some_o will_v object_n be_v this_o that_o the_o weak_a be_v not_o to_o be_v admit_v to_o doubtful_a disputation_n and_o therefore_o not_o to_o such_o a_o conference_n or_o dispute_n as_o this_o be_v to_o which_o i_o answer_v that_o when_o the_o apostle_n speak_v against_o the_o admit_v of_o weak_a christian_n to_o doubtful_a disputation_n he_o speak_v of_o those_o disputation_n which_o concern_v not_o thing_n fundamental_a but_o the_o point_n which_o we_o be_v upon_o be_v of_o great_a concernment_n a_o fundamental_a point_n in_o religion_n the_o ground_n of_o faith_n what_o it_o be_v that_o every_o man_n and_o woman_n must_v believe_v that_o they_o may_v be_v save_v as_o whether_o they_o be_v to_o believe_v that_o christ_n die_v with_o a_o intention_n to_o save_v all_o the_o posterity_n of_o adam_n or_o whether_o he_o die_v to_o save_v sinner_n indefinite_o that_o whosoever_o believe_v in_o he_o shall_v not_o perish_v but_o etc._n etc._n and_o therefore_o i_o conceive_v that_o objection_n will_v not_o at_o all_o prejudice_n our_o practice_n at_o this_o time_n a_o three_o objection_n be_v this_o that_o there_o be_v such_o incivility_n usual_o among_o the_o people_n at_o such_o conference_n that_o it_o be_v a_o great_a deal_n better_a to_o let_v they_o alone_o then_o for_o godly_a man_n to_o engage_v in_o they_o to_o this_o i_o answer_v that_o this_o be_v the_o fault_n of_o the_o people_n and_o not_o of_o the_o duty_n and_o i_o hope_v your_o ingenuity_n will_v be_v such_o at_o this_o time_n and_o your_o christianity_n that_o you_o will_v be_v able_a by_o your_o demeanour_n to_o confute_v this_o objection_n i_o hope_v you_o will_v remember_v that_o you_o be_v christian_n the_o most_o of_o you_o and_o that_o you_o ought_v in_o body_n and_o soul_n to_o behave_v yourselves_o in_o all_o thing_n to_o the_o glory_n of_o your_o heavenly_a father_n the_o last_o objection_n that_o i_o have_v meet_v withal_o be_v this_o that_o usual_o in_o such_o dispute_v man_n rather_o seek_v themselves_o then_o the_o glory_n of_o jesus_n christ_n and_o vent_v their_o passion_n and_o seek_v for_o mastery_n rather_o than_o for_o truth_n but_o i_o hope_v there_o will_v be_v such_o a_o presence_n of_o the_o spirit_n of_o grace_n in_o the_o learned_a respondent_fw-la and_o myself_o that_o by_o our_o deportment_n we_o shall_v be_v able_a to_o overthrow_v and_o to_o detect_v the_o weakness_n of_o this_o objection_n and_o therefore_o i_o desire_v you_o with_o silence_n and_o candour_n to_o hear_v we_o whilst_o we_o seek_v not_o ourselves_o but_o the_o glory_n of_o god_n in_o the_o exaltation_n of_o truth_n in_o the_o name_n of_o the_o lord_n jesus_n mr._n goodwin_n i_o hope_v the_o people_n of_o god_n here_o gather_v together_o will_v give_v i_o also_o the_o patient_a hear_n of_o a_o word_n or_o two_o and_o so_o mete_v out_o the_o same_o measure_n unto_o i_o which_o they_o have_v do_v to_o you_o whereas_o mr._n simpson_n be_v please_v to_o instance_n in_o several_a place_n wherein_o paul_n the_o