Selected quad for the lemma: ground_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
ground_n	believe_v	church_n	infallible_a	3,076	5	10.3460	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A45831	Rome is no rule, or, An answer to an epistle published by a Roman Catholic who stiles himself Cap. Robert Everard and may serve for an answer to two Popish treatises, the one entituled The question of questions, and the other Fiat lux, out of which books the arguments urged in the said epistle against the authority of the Scriptures and the infallibility of the Roman Church are collected : in which answer, the authority of the Scriptures is vindicated and the arguments for the Roman infallibility refuted / by J.I.	Ives, Jeremiah, fl. 1653-1674.	1664 (1664)	Wing I1103B; ESTC R41015	38,546	134

all things necessary to salvation but yet she may for all that erre and be mistaken in some profitable points and as a Man may be a man that hath some lameness and deformity of Body so may the Church be a true Church though it may be corrupt in Doctrine and Practise which it will hardly be freed from till the day in which she shall be presented to her husband a chast spouse without spot or wrinkle or any such thing You proceed and in p. 30. Assigne a fifth Argument That the Church of God was the Rule and Judge and the Infallible Guide when Christ and his Apostles was upon the Earth From whence you would infer that it is so still Sir I can very well own the Antecedent and deny the Consequence But you say There is no Reason why the Church should not be so still unless it be said that the Apostles were Infallible Guides till the Canon of the Scripture was finished and that then Infallibility ceased c. But then you say what will be the Consequence if that the Canon of the sequence if that the Canon of the Scripture which the Apostles finished be now uncompleated by the loss of those Epistles and Parcels of the Apostles Writings which you say you have proved to be lost I Answer It will not follow that we shall need your bind guide if what you say were true But Secondly It follows that your Church is fallible because she hath not faithfully kept those Epistles that she saith were committed to her trust as I have told you once and again Thirdly Whereas you say p. 31 If we had the whole Canon yet it were not sufficient to decide all Controversies now on foot in matters of Faith Sir this is but the same over and over for doth it follow that because all Controversies are not decided that therefore the Scripture is not sufficient to decide them Surely then it follows your Church is not sufficient to decide all Controversies because the Controversie between the Jesuites and the Dominicans and the Franciscans and the Dominicans are not yet decided But Lastly You may as well say that the Grace of God doth not sufficiently teach Men to deny ungodliness and worldly last because the world lyes in wickedness as say the Scriptures are not sufficient to decide Controversies In Faith because Controversies in Faith are not decided This is your Romish Reasoning You come to your last Reason in pag. 32. and tell us Tell none of those difficulties that were proposed to prove the Scripture not to be the Rule are capable of being objected against the Church This Argument I have already Answered by shewing that the same and greater absurdities are objected against your Church But however I will Examine your First Reason since I have not yet met with it and that is Because the Church you say is capable of answering those ends for which it is proposed in that all that submit to it are of one Faith I Answer Then the Church of England may be this True Church for all that submit to her are of one Faith and if any are not it is because they submit not Your other Reasons have fallen under consideration in the Answering of your Arguments about the invalidity of the Scripture to which I refer the Reader You proceed to Answer an Objections pag. 32. which you say is made by those of the separation viz. that these Texts which you have urged are to be understood by the Church Triumphant and not of the Church Militant in the World And after you have set up this pupper of your own as you phrase it or man of straw you spend your 33 34 and 35 Pages to fight against it and therefore I shall do nothing to part the fray because that supposed notion is no friend of mine therefore I shall leave you to struggle with it as well as you can Having taken it for granted that there must be an infallible Church you come in the last place pag. 36. to resolve which is this Church and this you say is the Roman Church the summ of your Argument is this God hath appointed some Church upon Earth to be our Infallible Judge Ergo the Roman Church must needs be this Infallible Church because no Church differing from it that is none but the Roman Church can be this Infallible Church I Answer That this in effect is a Womans Reason to say that you are Infallible because you are Infallible for you say The Roman Church must needs be so because none but the Roman Church can be so No marvel you tell us Reason must not be our Judge for fear it should condemn such un-manlike Arguing But you add further pag. 37. That the Church which is appointed by God to be this Infallible Judge must needs have this condition that she own her Infallibility To which I Answer That then there was no True Church the first 300 years because that there was none that ever owned Infallibility in your sense unless it were the Church of Laodicea who like Rome said she was rich and increased in goods and had need of nothing whereas she was poor and miserable blind and naked So that the whole Argument is made up of presumption for you presume some Church is Infallible and then you presume your Church must needs be so because no other Church own themselves to be Infallible but you must needs give us a better Reason or else while we make any use of Reason we shall not believe it to be so for what if any Church should have the confidence to call themselves Infallible then your Argument would fall to the ground and the Question would then be to be decided either by the Word or by the Sword which of the two were truly Infallible Having Answered your Arguments I shall propose a few Questions to considerations wherewithall I shall conclude Whereas you say There must be an Infallible Church on Earth to judge of all differences and that this Church consists of a Pope reciding in and defining with a general Council in which it is represented by its Pastours out of all Nations I querie first How was the Church guided for the first 300 years in all which time there was no such general Council Secondly In what time and place was the Church ever so universally represented by her Pastours out of all Nations if not then how could she be Infallible being not so represented Thirdly If the Church be no otherwise Infallible but by general Councils as aforesaid then how can we be guided when there is no General Councils as at this day Fourthly If you say we may be guided by those Canons and Decrees which they made in their respective Sessions Then I demand how I shall rightly understand that those Laws and Canons are truly Translated and Interpreted since they were given out in a Language that I understand not Fifthly If you shall say I may know them from the

out of the great St. Austine against Manicheus whose Words are these If thou shalt find any one who doth not as yet believe the Gospel what wilt thou do when he shall say unto thee I do not believe But neither had I believed the Gospel unless I had been thereunto moved by the Authority of the Catholick Church Those therefore to whom I submitted when they required me to believe the Gospel why should I not yield Obedience to them when they perswade me not to believe Manicheus Thus speaks Austine and more to the same purpose lo which I Answer That this Text out of Austine may be applyed to any Church as well as to yours And if the Church of England shall perswade any one that is a Jew to turn and become a Christian may he not say he did well to believe them when they perswaded him to believe the Gospel Why therefore should he not believe them when they perswade him not to turn Roman Catholick But to this Text I shall subjoyne Two Texts more out of the same Authour against the Donatists The Question saith he between Us and the Donatists is where is the Church This is the Question between the Protestants and the Romanists He Answers Let not these Speeches be heard among you This I say and this thou sayest but let us hear what the Lord sayes There are certain Books of God unto whose Authority we both consent There let us try our Cause There let us seek the Church And again in the Scriptures have we learned Christ In the Scriptures have we learned the Church Ep. 166. ad Donatift Whosoever shall compare these Texts out of Austine may easily satisfie himself What his Judgment was in the Question between You and Us viz. whether we should learn Christ and the Scriptures from the Church or whether we should learn Christ and the Church from the Scriptures To this purpose Epiphanius speaking of a Heritick Saith This Man is found differing from the HOLY SCRIPTURES as will appear to all Men that Read attentively If he then dissent from them he is altogether an Alien to the Holy Catholick Church Epiphanius Tom. 1. lib. 2. haer 48. It seems in his time all men were permitted to read the Scriptures attentively to inform iheir minds in the Truth whatever is now a dayes pretended to the contrary I proceed now to the Epistle it self In the beginning whereof Page 1. You give an account of the Reasons of its Publication which are To Answer Expectation to prevent the World from censuring and to manifest your charity to your late dear Brethren from whom you have received returns of Assection I did expect that among those Motives that prevailed with you to publish the grounds of your change I should have found you saying that the Glory of God had been the chief moving Cause But I finde not a word of that and therefore however you may have Answered the Expectations of others I am sure you have not answered mine But further you say you published your Epistle To prevent the World from censuring Sir whatever you promised your selfe in the beginning of your Book your heart failed for fear of obtaining when you had finished it And therefore you are forced to Ride Post after your Reader and pray him That he would not up-braid you As if you had some private ends of your own in your present change See the Post-Script in Page 40. Which plainly shews that you had some mis-givings of heart that all you had spoken throughout your Book would not Answer your end Viz. Keep the World from censuring And as for that other end which you pretend in the publishing of your Book Namely Charity to your late Brethren Truly whatever you pretend they will scarce believe you because in your Post-Script you uncharitably impute the Calumnies and Slanders that were cast upon his late Majesty and his Majesty that now is to the Presbiterians and Independens Indefinitly without exception Is this Charity And this uncharitableness of yours is grievously aggravated First Because it is basely remembred by you who were in the same Condemnation with others And Secondly Because it is mentioned after it hath been pardoned by the Kings Majesty And is this your gratefull return for that love which your late Brethren have manifested to you If so surely the charity of a Catholick and the mercies of the wicked are alike cruel You proceed like a Romane Catholick and in the latter end of page the 1. Sound a Trumpet in your own praise by saying That your carriage was alwaies such while you was in Communion with them meaning your late Brethren As gave them sufficient reason to believe that you was not Byassed by world interests and selfish considerations But if any body believes so they may erre because they do not believe as the Church believes In the Second Page you tell us how you came to be acquainted with a Lay Gentle-Man of the Catholick perswasion and how he interrogated you about the grounds of Christian Religion The substance of his Questions was to this purpose Whether you were sure the Christian Religion in General was more true then the Religion of Turks Jews or any others c The Reason he gave for this question was that if neither your self nor those that taught you that Christianity was the only safe way to Salvation was infallibly certain or were capable of any mistakes or errour in this thing Then it followed that Christianity was but probable and not certain From Page second to the eighth you recite what Arguments your Catholick Friend used to prove these things to you Viz. That we could not convince a Turk or a Jew of the certainty of Christianity but by the Churches Infallibility Which I forbear to make a reply unto partly because it is but a Narrative of a private Conference between you and that Catholick Gentle-Man And chiefly because I shall have occasion to speake to the very same things in my following Answers to your Arguments to which I refer the Reader You come in the latter end of the 8. Page to tell us what Effects this Conference had upon your understanding as that thereupon You resolved to have Recourse to Almighty God by Prayer for his Divine assistance and to make it your businesse according to your skill and understanding to take a full view of the Catholick Faith and of Christianity and laying aside all Prejudices Pride and Humours You Resolved to embrace by the assstance of God whatsoever you should understand to agree to his most Holy Will and Pleasure Hereupon let me aske you a few questions First how are you sure you had a Divine Assistance in this choice as an Answer to your Prayers since when you made these Prayers you were not a member of your pretended Catholick Church Secondly How are you sure since the heart of Man is deceitfull that your heart did not deceive you when it inclined you to Popery Thirdly

our guide but it was because you did not make a deep diligent search into them which is the reason as your Rhemists say Hereticks never find the Truth But why do you beguile your unwary Reader with this word viz. That the Scriptures are not a SOLE Guide thereby to let him think that you allow them in some sense to be a guide when indeed your following Arguments do manifestly declare that you would not have them to be any guide at all Your first Reason why the Scriptures are not a Guide is because they do not answer the end viz. the reconciling differences for those who pretend most to consult the Scriptures do most of all disagree in matters of faith and interpreting the Scriptures To this I answer First May not a Heathen or a Jew alledge the same Argument against Christianity it self and say that the Christian Religion is no safe way to happiness because of the differences that are among the Professors of it 2 May it not be said that the Apostles themselves were no certain Guides because they had divisions and contentions among them and that they had appears by the testimony of St. Paul himself Rom 16.17 Mark them that cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine c. And the same Apostle tells the Corinthians 1 Cor. 3.3 and 1 Cor. 11.19 That there was among them envyings strife and contention some holding of Paul and some of Apollo some of Cephas Nay he further tells them there must be Heresies among you that they that are approved might be made manifest 3 May it not as well be said of the Church of the Jews which you say were infallible that they were no Guide or at least no certain Guide because there were differences and contentions among them as there was between the Pharisees Sadduces and Essavaus it is said that the Sadduces denied the Resurrection Angels and Spirit as you say the Scriptures are no Guide to true faith because men differ and and disagree in matters of Faith But 4 May you not as well say that Christ is not the Saviour of the World and that he came not into the World to the end that the World might be saved because it doth not appear that all shall be saved as say the Scriptures are no Guide to end Controversies because all Controversies are not ended 5 May you not as well infer that the grace of God doth not teach men to deny ungodliness because some turn the grace of God into wantonness as say the Scriptures are no sure Guide to faith and salvation because many wrest them to their own destruction 6 May you not as well say that the Primitive Church were no infallible Guide to true faith because they had disagreements and contentions among them as the strife between the Eastern and Western Churches about the keeping of Easter and they excommunicating one another And the Question of Re-baptizing bred the like differences between the Bishops of Rome and the Western Bishops of one Party and Cyprian Dionysius and Firmilianus with most of the Eastern Bishops of the other Party Euseb Hist lib. 5. c. 21. lib. 7. c. 3. Cyp. Ep. 74 75. Soc. lib. 6. c. 17. Soc. lib. 6. c. 21. I say may not one more truly infer these were no Guides because they had dissentions and divisions among them as you may say the Scriptures are not a Guide because of the differences that are amongst Protestants 7 And lastly May I not infer as well from the like Premises because there is and hath been differences among the now-pretended Catholicks as I have already shewn that therefore their Church is no infallible Guide as you may say the men that consult Scriptures do not agree among themselves therefore the Scriptures are not the Guide Your second Reason followeth in the 17 pag. which is but the same in effect with the first therefore the former Answer may suffice onely you tell us a story of an Arian or as the Question of Questions hath it an Arian Cobler how that if you were to dispute with him about the Deity of Christ from Job 10.30 I and my Father are one by this Text you say you should think you had proved the Question But then you say your Arian would compare this Text with john 17.21 where Christ prayeth to his Father that his Disciples might be all one thing as thou Father are in me and I in thee But if you should urge the Arian further and tell him the Council of Nice gave the same Interpretation which you do you say the Arian would answer as the Protestants generally do that they have a worthy esteem of Councils as far as they agree with the Word of God but where they disagree in that he must contradict them all To which I Answer setting aside the contraversie between the Arians and Athanasians as not coming within the verge of our present question that if the Arian Cobler had been as Orthodox in all his other Opinions as he is in his opinion about the Holy Scriptures and Councels viz. to think reverently of Councels and agree with them as far as they agree with the World of Truth I say if this had been all this Arian Coblers Errour I should have judged him a better Christian then a Roman Shoo-maker or the Catholick Collier who could say no more for himself being tempted by the Devil at the point of death what his faith was Answered I believe and dye in the faith of Christs Church Being again demanded what the Faith of Christs Church was Answered The faith that I believe in See Apology Translated by Staplet p. 53. But you say That you can urge against an Arian the Authority of the Councel of Nice and their Interpretation of the Scripture by which they Infallibly decide the controversie And here you think you have a more certaine guide and ground of your Faith then others because they adhere to private spirits and private judgements up on the Scriptures whereas you adhere to general Councel To which I Answer First Doe you think that General Councels did speak and teach in more plainness of Speech and that they uttered words less subject to be wrested by wrong interpretations then the words of the Prophets and Apostles were who spake as they were inspired by the spirit of God Secondly How do you know that you have the true sense and meaning of the Councels determinations since their Decrees are as lyable if not more lyable to mis-interpretations then the Holy Scriptures The reason of this question is because you did not hear them your self and if you had heard them you might have mis-understood them but if you say you have read the Councels and so came to be informed I do further demand how you do believe by a Divine Faith that you do not mis-understand the Councels in what you read and so collect a false sense Thirdly If you shall say you have a Priest to teach you