Selected quad for the lemma: ground_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
ground_n	authority_n	church_n	true_a	2,292	5	5.6438	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A13299	A Christian reprofe against contention Wherin is declared and manifested a just defence of the Church against such slanderes and reproches which Sabine Staresmore hath layd vpon vs in his two bookes, the first being 16 questions, called a louing tender. The second is his preface and postscript befor and behind Mr. Answorths last sermon, and making a pretence by that to sett it out as a loue token, hee breetheth out his malice against vs: and lastly her is an answer to a letter written by Mr. Robinson, and sent to vs with the consent of his Church, which now Mr. Staresmore hath published to the world. To these things an answer is giuen by A.T.	A. T., fl. 1631.; Thatcher, Anthony, attributed name.	1631 (1631)	STC 23605; ESTC S103240	40,101	48

but I will grant him to be the diuells snare layare as before I haue showed and I also grant that hee and some with him hath in snared and troubled the mindes of some which hath troubled vs now that hee being a chiefe instrument in this our troubles or strugling as he tearmeth it let him take the shame of it vnto himselfe and let him and all know that wee are commanded to striue ernestly for the faith once giuen to the Saincts Iude 3. and for vs I hope wee shall haue cause to say as the Psalm saith Our soule as a bird is escaped out of the snare of the fowler the snar is broken and wee are escaped Psalm 124. 7. And for to looke for help at the hands of men vvee leaue that vnto him which doth so labour for it and it shall bee sufficient for vs to haue the vvord of the Lord for our warrant to satisfie the conscience of all that feareth the Lord. And wheras hee saith that wee creept basely for helpe or reliefe I know no such thing yet obserue how contrary hee is vnto himselfe one whille hee saith wee reject the helpe of all and hear hee saith that wee creept basely for reliefe and neither of them are true as hee would make the Reader to vnderstand for I haue answered before that wee reject the helpe of none in due order and as their is just occasion And vvheras hee saith novv they vnconsciennably inuent slanderes hoping after so long time past they may now boldly change the causes of our differances and say vvee were cast out for a tempting to lead them to idolatry and so all wee haue published is no other then lyes vvhich they novv threaten to manifest to all the vvorld ANSWER Wee vvill leaue the inuenting of slanderes vnto himselfe vvho hath so laueshly let his tong and pen run that way as hath bin showed neither will vvee change the causes of our differances and therfore I haue layd it downe before that they were cast out for a factious or vnlawfull meeting 2. For contempt of gouernment in their refusall to answer or to debat their matter and 3. for contention in the manner of cariages these were the heades of their causes of their casting out But now doth hee thinke by this his clamours to stay vs that wee shall not speake or lay open his sin in the perticulars as vvee haue just occasion vvhich is contained in chose generall heads and seeing hee would not debat his matter before hee vvas cast out but vvould haue it tourned backe in to priuat therfore although hee hear of it in the publique vvee do him no injury seeing hee administers the occasion and if vvee should not lay open the perticulars to proue the faction or vnlavvfull meeting hee I suppose vvould take the aduantage therof therfore let the Reader obserue the ansvver before giuen but that any hath so spoken as hee settes it dovvne I knovv none yet if there did any so speake they shot some thing nearer the marke if the perticular bee looked into And vvhereas hee saith that vvee euer haue shuned triall to such clamours I haue ansvvered before But wheras hee saith that this letter doth manifest it wher also contrary to our saying is confearmed that they censered vs for not acknovvledging intraping demandes for Christ government and a lavvfull peacable meeting for faction Answer Hovv this letter doth manifest this vvhich hee saith it vvill in the ansvvering thereof appeare in the meane time to him I ansvver vvee might vvonder how Mr. Rob. can conferm that vvhich hee speaketh of seeing hee vvas altogether ignorant hovv things were caried and then on the other hand considering hovv hee vvas corrupted vvith the same errour and more errours of like natur vvhich also receiued him by that Samaritanest Couenant and also receiued for trueth this mans information and those that assist him considering of these things wee may obserue what caried away his affection but for answer I giue this man to vnderstand that Solomon Prouerbes 18. 17. hath told vs the condition of such as hee is therfore the greatest and first complainers are not allwayes the most clears of euill and therefore now let such as know the trueth judge and consider what is sayd betvveen vs concerning this matter Hear follovveth the ansvvering of the Letter of the Church of Leyden WEe receiued your letter Brethren but not ansvvering either our expectation or the vvaightnes of the bussines in hand ANSWER THis waightie bussines vvhich hee speaketh of vvas a reconciling of those persons vvhich vvas cast out for these things in question and hovv should vvee answer their expectation seeing those opposites were so stiffe in their sinfull course as that speech doth manifest which one of them spake aluding to Paule Actes 24. 14. in vvhich speech hee vvould seem to imitat Paule but although it vvas good in Paul to vse that speech and showed his fearmnes in the trueth yet vvas it euill in Mr. S. to vse that speech in the behalfe of his sinne and it showed his stifnes in the same and therefore no hope of reconciliation they so standing in that minde And vvheras Mr. Robin vvould seen to justifie him for his stifnes saying first touching the person intended by you I should not seeme strange to any if hee were most forvvard vvho vvas deeply interested in the bussines and that so far as his Church estat and membership must necessarily stand or fall vvith that Couenant impugned by you as the branch vvith the roote Answer I denie that his membership should stand or fall by that Couenant for wee receiued him to vs one these two grounds first as a member coming from the Church of Leyden vvith vvhom wee vvere in communion 2. As being a man capable because hee vvas fully separated from the false Church and this hee had manifested vnto vs before wee receiued him and although the Church of Leyden vvhich held the Couenant true did so receiue him by that Couenant yet wee allwayes rejected that Couenant and did not receiue him by that Couenant vnto vs for vvee hauing novv another ground to go vpon First that hee vvas a man absolutly separated 2. That hee being novv a member of a true Church vvhich vvas in communion vvith vs and allthough Mr. S. vvas contrary to himselfe in that hee vvas novv separated yet held that Couenant true yet else how should wee beare vvith him in the differance of his judgment according these Scripturs Rom. 14. 1. and Phil. 3. 14. 15. alwayes prouided that hee keept his errour to himselfe and not to corrupt others their vvith and this vvill stand vvith the Scriptures that so vvee receiued him yet if any can show vs other vvayes that it will not stand but that wee ought to haue don more then there is a remedy by faith and repentance in Christ to helpe all our a mise doings and not to run vnto such extreme conclusions as Mr. Robin would

driue it nay yet further I say that if the Church of Leyden vvho first receiued him and that by the vertue of that Couenant if they had come to see their errour in so doing yet vvould it not follovv that hee should bee desmembered seeing hee vvas separated but the Church ought to acknovvledge their sinne in so doing and to see that hee corrupted not other Reu. 2. 20. with his errour and that reason helpeth him not from Gen. 29. 24. where hee saith As Zilpah vvas not nor could bee rightfully Leahs handmaide except shee had bin Labanes first rightfully by whose gift shee was transmitted and conueyed vnto her Answer I grant that Laban could not rightfully giue her except shee had bin his rightfully before but if Laban had stollen her and Zilpah had run avvay and come to Leahs into the land of Cannan then Leahs might haue bought her or haue hiered her and yet Laban should haue no injury offered vnto him vnlesse his stealling her made her his rightfully vvhich ne●… man ought to say So likewise neither the Church of Leyden nor any true Church ought not to receiue any from such an vnseparated people seeing they haue but stollen the ordinances of God and haue no right vnto them And whereas hee bringeth these reasons to proue his deepe intrest in the bussines let all know that no conceited intrest vvill beare out any to maintaine an errour and therefore all his reasonings is of little weight And for that hee saith that the Couenant vvas by the Churches both here and there also in the time of those vvorthy gouernors now at rest in the Lord esteemed truely Christian I pray let vs examme the trueth of this that the Churches both here and there did so esteeme for our selues I may say that the Church neuer did receiue it and therefore not so esteeme it neither vvas the voice of the Church euer taken concerning that Couenant but vvhen they showed their minde to bee contrary vnto it and condemned it Or doth Mr. Robin thinke that because our teacher who was a mise informed did a little whille esteeme of the Couenant that therefore the Church must so esteeme also and thought that wee must doe as these which consented to this letter which followed o●… suffered him in all or the most of his declinings And for that Church which is present in the place vvhere those Couenantmaker are as wee are truely informed by themselues they did neuer receiue it How is this true then vvhich Mr. Robin sayd but if it had bin so what vveight is there in that reason to helpe the Couenant much like vnto the reason of the Pharises Iohn 7. 48. which sayd against Christ doth any of the Rulers or the Pharises beleeue in him but this people vvhich know not the law are cursed Therefore I conclud it is not the esteeme of Churches nor of gouernors which giueth authority to such things but the word of the Lord and where hee saith the party intended by you should by your grounds not haue bin cast out but left out of the Church Answer Our grounds inforce not that conclusion seeing the person vvas novv become a separated person and a member of the Church of Leyden from whence wee receiued him as before I haue showed in the next place there is a syd and a halfe of the printed letter spent to excues and to justify Mr. S. in that speech in the vvhich hee seemed to imitat Paule Actes 24. 14. but of that I haue spoken before yet still I answer that those his speechs did proue his stifnes in that his former course and therefore of reconciliation wee had no hope while hee so stod and continued and for Mr. Robinson profering to come and to justifie Mr. S. in that his former proceding to the which I answer wee know well that hee vvas redy to that bussines and that hee was one vvith him in that his errour and therefore just cause wee had not to bee redy to giue him intertainment to come as a moderator to middle the matter seeing wee find no such president in the booke of God yet this wee hold and professe that if any can show that vvee haue sinned in any thing vvee ought and are redy to heare them and this haue vvee signified vnto the Church of Leyden by letter and therefore the way vvas open for them to come in that manner In the next place hee saith And wheras the course well begone and tending to pacification was as wee vnderstand interrupted and broken of vpon a ground taken from the course of not calling againe into question ciuill judgments once passed by the judge according to right let it not bee greiuious vnto you if wee a little warne you of that dangerous foundation vpon which it seemes you to much build your manner of procedings in the Church Answer To hould that matters being ended according to right ought not at mens pleasures to bee called into question againe I see not this proued to bee dangerous by all that which Mr. Rob. haue sayd For if matters rightfully ended should at mens pleasurs bee called into question vvhen vvould their bee an end of contention either in the Church or in the common wealthes and for the distinction which hee puteth between the ending of ciuill judgments of the casting forth of the sinner by the Church namly that repentance should follow to these distinctions Wee agree and signifie withall that if wee could see that good worke in these persons in question there vvould bee quickly are conciliation but yet further I ansvver to take away occasion from such as take an occasion to cauill at things equall that wee hold it lawfull although a matter bee rightly ended yet vvee may go ouer it againe as the occasion may bee offered yea and more then once and this wee haue practised in this matter in the publique with these men diuers times but yet it vvill not follow that at mens pleasurs wee must do this and bring our liberty into bondage and so to vphold contention But wher hee saith that a larger extent of discretion this vvay fevv causes in any age can persuad to then this in hand considering both the ground and cariage of the thing and the number of the persons opposite and vvith these intrest of all other Church in the bussines Answer The comparison of any age is more fit to shovv eloquence and to set a glose vpon the thing in hand rather then to proue that for vvhich it is brought and for the ground and cariage of the thing I haue before spoken of it to the which I refere the Reader and for the number of the persons opposite I answer although I am sory they are so many yet I am glad they are so few seeing these men are such suttell opposers labour so much to corrupt the mindes of the simple and hauing with them Ioab the captaine and Abiather the Preist I meane Mr.