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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A20770	A treatise of the true nature and definition of justifying faith together with a defence of the same, against the answere of N. Baxter. By Iohn Downe B. in Divinity, and sometime fellow of Emanuel C. in Cambridge.; Selections	Downe, John, 1570?-1631.; Baxter, Nathaniel, fl. 1606.; Bayly, Mr., fl. 1635.; Muret, Marc-Antoine, 1526-1585. Institutio puerilis. English.	1635 (1635)	STC 7153; ESTC S109816	240,136	421

Articles he meriteth by belieuing although it be an error because hee is bound to belieue vntill it manifestly appeare that it is against the Church O immortall God if this bee true how easy a thing is it for a Papist to bee saued Onely belieue what your Prelate or Curate telleth you and you shall not need to trouble your selfe further for whether it be true or false sound doctrine or heresy you are out of danger nay it is meritorious to belieue it Alas alas that poore simple people should bee so miserably cheated and seduced God I hope will ere long open their eyes to see these impostures and by the light of his word guide their feet in a surer way In the meane season giue me leaue to summe vp all what I haue hitherto sayd and thereupon to inferre the Conclusion first intended Seeing therefore as wee haue now fully demonstrated the Fathers were but men as wee are neither hauing the Promise nor assuming vnto themselues the Priuiledge of Infallibility aboue vs seeing secondly many Counterfaits are set forth vnder the names of the Fathers which the best of your side cannot so readily discerne and which they ordinarily alledge in euery controuersie betwixt vs for authenticall Fathers seeing thirdly the writings of the Fathers are pitifully corrupted and adulterated by Hereticks and others and that sundry wayes by Addition Substraction Alteration Misquotation and False translation seeing fourthly the sayings of the Fathers are so ambiguous and obscure that not onely we and you one against another but your owne side also among themselues are distracted and diuided touching the sence and meaning of them seeing fiftly the more part of the Fathers sometime consent in errour yea and such errors as the present Church of Rome condemneth with Anathema seeing sixtly the most learned of your side make no scruple to reiect the Fathers whensoeuer they consent against them and warrant their so doing with diuerse reasons seeing lastly they make not Consent of Fathers but the authority of the present Church that is to say the Pope for the time being to bee the onely Infallible iudge of Controuersies seeing I say all these things are vndoubtedly so I will not bee afraid to conclude that the pretended Consent of Fathers is too weake and deceitfull a ground for a man with security to build his Faith vpon For whereas you say that beleeuing as the Fathers did if they bee saued as doubtlesse they are you cannot miscary take heed lest this proue but a broken reed and deceiue you in the end For first if for the reasons aboue set down you cannot be infallibly certaine which are the true Fathers and what is their right meaning how can you bee infallibly certaine that you belieue as they did Againe doe you thinke it safe to hold all their errors also and because they are not condemned for them that you shall escape condemnation in like manner beleeuing them Cont. Haer. c. 10. Heare then what Vincentius Lirinensis saith O wonderfull change of things saith hee the Authors of the same opinion are iudged Catholicks and the followers Heretiks the Masters are absolued and the Schollers condemned the Writers of the books shall bee the Sonnes of the Kingdome and Hell shall keep those that maintaine them For who doubts but blessed Cyprian the light of Bishops and holy Martyrs together with the rest of his Collegues shall raigne for euer with Christ Contrarily who is so impious as to deny that the Donatists and the rest of that pestilent crew who vnder the authority of that Councell presume to rebaptize shall burne for euermore with the Diuell Thus hee whereby you see how dangerous it is to beleeue euen as the best haue done before vs vnlesse wee haue better warrant then so for our doing Lastly suppose the Fathers consenting erred not yet are you neuer the safer For the strength of Faith exceeds not the strength of the testimony nor the strength of the testimony the Veracity of the Witnesse Now the Veracity of the Fathers is but the Veracity of men and the Veracity of men is imperfect and inconstant euer leauing roome for that word of truth All men are lyers Whence it followeth that your Faith being grounded only on the Veracity of men is no better then an Acquisite and Humane Faith Whereby though you belieue all that the Fathers did yet not belieuing as they did they may bee saued and you perish For they building vpon diuine testimony belieued with a Diuine Faith and therefore Sauing but you relying on humane authority belieue onely with an Acquisite and Humane Faith which saueth not no not although the things you belieue thereby are true For an Acquisite Faith the diuels themselues may haue and yet are damned Wherefore it being as you see so dangerous and vnsafe to trust in man and as the Prophet speaketh to make flesh your arme let mee entreat you euen in the bowels of Iesus Christ to take vnto you Christian seuerity and with all speed to returne your Faith backe againe vpon the rocke from which so rashly and vnaduisedly you remoued it Remember I beseech you how S. Augustin in a controuersy betwixt him and Hierome touching S. Peters dissimulation hauing eleuated the authority of foure of those seuen Fathers which were vrged against him and not being able to oppose three to the other three remaining Epist 19. quitteth himselfe thus When saith he I seeke a third that I also may oppose three to three verily I suppose I might easily find him if I had read much howbeit to mee the Apostle Paul shall bee insteed of all yea and aboue them all To him I flie to him I appeale of him I aske and demand c. In like manner doe you also and in Gods name let your finall appeale bee made vnto the holy Scriptures as vnto the supreme iudge in all questions of Faith Catech. 4. Theod. l. 1. c. 7. For as Cyril B. of Ierusalem saith The security of our Faith ariseth from the demonstration of the holy Scripture and the resolution of those things we seeke for must bee taken out of the diuine inspired Scripture saith Constantin in his oration to the Bishops of the Nicen Councell Con. Herm. De bon vid. c. 1. Orat. de ijs q. adeunt Hierosol Hom. 13. in 2. Cor. Epist 112. ad Paulin. And reason for the Scriptures are the rule of Faith as Tertullian and Augustin say A straight and inflexible rule as Gregory Nyssen saith A most exquisite rule and exact square and ballance to trie all things by saith Chrysostome In regard whereof saith Saint Augustin If a matter bee grounded on the euident authority of holy Scripture such I say as the Church calleth Canonicall it is without all doubt to bee belieued but as touching other witnesses and testimonies vpon whose credit a thing is vrged vpon vs to bee belieued thou majest lawfully either credit or not credit them as thou perceiuest them

a true Body like vnto ours but that Body which you fancy to be in the Eucharist is not like vnto our bodies For in this Body there is no distance of one part from another as of eye from eye and head from feet neither hath it any dimensiue quantity and is all both in Heauen and here on earth in the Sacrament at once yet not in the middle region betweene nor separated from himselfe but nothing of this can bee affirmed of our bodies or of any other organicall body And if you say that you conceiue of Christs Body in the Sacrament as of a glorified Body the plaine Scripture is against you that when Christ spake these words This is my Body his Body was yet vncrucified and vnglorified Your exposition therefore crossing the Analogy cannot possibly bee good As for ours thus we shew it The text plainely saith that our blessed Sauiour in his last supper tooke Bread blessed it brake it and gaue it vnto his disciples saying This is my Body What This bread But this Proposition This Bread is my Body literally and properly is not true therefore is it figuratiuely to be vnderstood How so Thus. I looke into plaine Scripture and there I find that as the Euangelists call it Bread before Consecration so Saint Paul cals it Bread after Consecration 1. Cor. 11.26 Ib. v. 27. Ib. v. 28. As often saith he as yee shall eat this Bread and Whosoeuer shall eat this Bread vnworthily and Let a man examine himselfe and so eat of this Bread Whence I conclude that the Bread is not changed but remaineth still Bread Then I consider further that our Sauiour now institutes a Sacrament and that in Sacramentall actions Sacramentall phrases are vsuall and the outward signe is called by the name of the thing signified as in the old Testament Gen. 7.10 Circumcision is called the Couenant and the Lambe the Passeouer and in the new Ex. 12.11 the Cup is called the new Testament or couenant Whereupon I inferre there being no reason to the contrary Luc. 22.20 that these words in like manner are to bee interpreted This is my Body that is This Bread is Sacramentally my Body or the Sacramentall signe of my Body And thus you see by clearing this one passage how other darker places also may receiue light from those that are plainer You will say this is to build vpon Consequences wherein it is possible to bee deceiued Whereunto I answer three things first that whatsoeuer may bee deduced out of the Word of God by euident Consequence is certaine euen by the certainty of Faith Bell. de Iust l. 3. c. 8. and this your owne greatest clarks doe grant Secondly to banish Consequences from Diuinity is to banish the vse of right reason and discourse also and that religion must needs bee driuen to narrow shifts which cannot subsist vnlesse men turne fooles or beasts Thirdly the necessity of a Consequence doth not any way depend vpon the person of him that inferreth it but onely vpon the mutuall relation and strait coniunction betweene the premisses and it so that by him who desires to bee satisfied in the truth not the person of him that deduceth it but the Consequence it selfe is to bee looked too whether it bee rightly deduced or no. But who shall iudge that will you say Indeed if you stand resolued vtterly to renounce all the helps and directions both of reason and art nor will yeeld to any Consequence of Scripture how cleere and euident soeuer but will only rely on the mouth and sentence of your humane externall Iudge I confesse I am at Dulkarnon to vse Chaucers phrase and you are past my skill infallibly to perswade you But if as wee haue shewed nor Scripture nor Fathers acknowledge such a Iudge if all whatsoeuer is necessary to saluation bee so plainely laid downe in Scripture as a man of meane capacity may vnderstand it if what is more obscurely deliuered in one place is more plainely expressed in another if God haue appointed that out of the plainer places wee should with study and industrie picke the meaning of those that are harder if hee haue promised that those that aske shall haue those that seeke shall find and to those that knocke it shall bee opened if finally though wee misse the true meaning of those harder places yet firmely adhering vnto the plainer wee are safe and out of danger then certainely the readiest and surest way to to interpret Scripture is by Scripture and there is no other way to determine controuersies and to satisfy the conscience but onely this If any notwithstanding this list still to bee contentious 1. Cor. 11. Wee saith S. Paul haue no such custome nor the Churches of God The rule it selfe is infallible and al-sufficient if wee either through ignorance cannot or through negligence doe not vse it as we ought the fault is not in God but in our selues neither doth hee faile in his prouidence but wee in our dutie Performe wee our duty obediently and hee will performe his promise faithfully In necessaries hee will neuer faile if in other things all be not of one mind yet let vs still proceed by the same rule and instruct one another in the spirit of meeknesse and God will reueale that also in due time And now M. Bayly you haue what I intended for the present it remaines that you peruse it attentiuely The summe is The Fathers may be Ministers by whom you belieue but their Consent is no ground of Faith Your externall humane Iudge is but a Chimera of mans braine and not an Officer of Gods making The onely al-sufficient infallible outward rule of Faith is Scripture in the plainer places which places also must interpret the difficulter Besides this albeit there may be a iurisdiction in the Church to order and controll the outer man yet to satisfy the Conscience and inner man there is no authority but this Which things being so let me entreat you and that in the bowels of Iesus Christ to remember from whence you are fallen and to cast about yet againe and by this rule to examine your new Faith It is not necessary for a man to be an Euclid or some cunning Mathematician to trie by a straight rule whether a line be straight or no. But you are a Scholler and a Minister and should bee able skilfully to apply the rule your selfe To trust anothers application of it for you and that in the point of saluation is not Christian modestie but meere childishnesse and foolish credulity Remember what Lactantius saith It behoueth a man Div. Instit l. 2. c. 8. specially in that thing wherein the state of our life consisteth to trust himselfe and to rely vpon his own iudgement and vnderstanding for finding out examining the truth rather then belieuing anothers errors to be deceiued as if himselfe were void of reason God hath giuen to all men some portion of wisedome whereby

did the former Ioh. 16.13 Certainly the Spirit that leadeth into all truth is yet and euer shall bee amongst vs vnto the end of the world And as before the writings of the Fathers were hee directed his Church vnto the true sence of Scripture so now I doubt not but if all whatsoeuer they haue written were vtterly lost he would still guide vs therein as hee did them And verily vnlesse wee will bee too vnthankfull wee cannot but confesse that as age through Gods bounty hath had more meanes then those heretofore so through his blessing it hath made further proceedings also in the knowledge of Scripture For besides that wee haue whatsoeuer helps they had we haue ouer and aboue the benefit of all their works together with much skilfulnes in the Originall of the old Testament which most of them wanted and of the new also wherewith some were but little acquainted In regard whereof whosoeuer shall duly compare the ancient Commentaries with those of latter times must needs bee either weake in iudgement or obstinate in preiudice if hee preferre not these Your owne men ingenuously acknowledge so much Art 18. cont Luther It cannot bee vnknowne to any saith Fisher B. of Rochester that there are many things as well in other Scriptures as the Gospels now more cleerely discussed and throughly vnderstood then in ancient times namely because the Ancients had not the yce broken vnto them or because their age sufficed not exactly to sound the whole sea of Scripture In Rom. 5. disp 51. And Salmeron God hath not giuen to all men all that euery age might enioy some truths which the former knew not Euery age hath euer ascribed much to antiquity yet this wee auouch the yonger the Doctors the cleerer sighted And Dominicus Bannes Jt is not necessary that the more remote the Church is from the Apostles times the lesse perfect knowledge of the mysterie of Faith should bee therein because after the Apostles time there were not the most learned in the Church which had dexterity in vnderstanding the matters of Faith Wee are not therefore enwrapped in the more darknesse for that in respect of time wee are more distant from Christ but rather the Doctors of these latter times being godly and treading in the steps of the ancient Fathers haue attained more expresse vnderstanding in some things then they had For they are like children standing on the shoulders of Giants who being lifted by the talnesse of Giants no maruell if they see further then they themselues In Luc. 10. This similitude Stella also vseth to the same purpose God forbid saith he that I should condemne what such and so many wise men haue with one accord affirmed yet wee know well that Pigmies set on the shoulders of Giants see further then the Giants themselues doe Thus they Whereby you see the Fathers haue no prerogatiue aboue vs because they were before vs but wee rather haue the aduantage because wee come after them In a word bee they whatsoeuer you will their seruants wee are not but their fellow seruants sent from God with the same commission to the same end and with the same promises that they were Neither doth their authority more bind vs in that they are our predecessors then our authority shall bind them who many ages hereafter may be our successors But draw we a little closer The ancient Fathers say you are the ground of your Faith What seuerally and single by themselues 〈◊〉 12. I suppose no for there is not one of them as your owne side confesseth but hath his error and I presume you would bee loth to follow them therein The Fathers therefore either all iointly or the more part of them agreeing in one So Canus Loc. lib. 7. c. 3. What the greater part of the Fathers iudgeth that wee professe to bee of the Catholicke Faith So Salmeron also In 1. Ioh. 3. disp 25. When all or almost all Fathers agree in one it is an ineuitable argumēt And Gregory of Valentia It is infallibly true which they deliuer with one consent Anal. l. 8. c. 8. ●ea an infallible rule iudging And Onuphrius Prim. Pap. p. 1. c. 6. It is rash and foolish and terrible rashnesse to goe against a sense giuen by the Fathers for the vnderstanding of the Scriptures And finally the Councell of Trent which peremptorily chargeth that no man dare to interprete the Scriptures against the vnanimous consent of the Fathers This then vndoubtedly being your assertion as euery way according with the Tenet of the Church of Rome let vs in Gods name trie the strength thereof and see with what security and safety a man may aduenture his Faith and consequently his eternall saluation vpon this ground And first whosoeuer will stedfastly repose his Faith vpon consent of Fathers had need be right well assured which are the authenticall writings of the Fathers For if these bee doubtfull and vncertaine the whole frame raised vpon them must of necessity shake and totter Now that there are bookes more then a good many which in their forefronts are inscribed and entitled vnto the Fathers yet in truth are meerely suppositious and apocryphall I know you cannot bee ignorant Nor Origen nor Athanasius nor Basil nor Chrysostome nor Cyril nor Tertullian nor Cyprian nor Ambrose nor Hier●me nor Augustin nor any one almost of all the Fathers but hath suffered notorious wrong in this kind hauing base brats and misbegotten bastards fathered vpon him Which also is so cleere and manifest that Posseuin and Salmeron and Maldonat and Baronius and Bellarmine and all the rest of that side though too frequently they make vse of such refuse stuffe yet euery where in their writings are constrained to acknowledge so much Biblioth l. 4. But amongst the rest Sixtus Senensis especially who purposely recording the works of all the Fathers taketh vpon him to demonstrate as much in euery one of them as in his Catalogue hee passeth from one Father to another So that indeed it would bee but an idle wasting both of oile and time if I should spend many words in proofe of that which is denied of none and therefore I forbeare further to trouble you with particularity Only because in our Conference you so confidently affirmed that Dionysius the Areopagite euen he who was Saint Pauls conuert and Scholler was the right Author of all those books that are now extant vnder his name I must entreat you to haue a little patience while I maintaine against you the negatiue which I then held and for which I stand still engaged vnto you That this Denise is but a counterfait but Diuines proue by sundry vnanswerable arguments I will not vrge them all but cull out the choicest Omitting therefore the Stile sauouring more of three hundred yeeres after then those Apostolicall times and his curious speculations in the secrets of heauen as if hee had beene surueyer thereof or had taken a muster