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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A09108	A revievv of ten publike disputations or conferences held vvithin the compasse of foure yeares, vnder K. Edward & Qu. Mary, concerning some principall points in religion, especially of the sacrament & sacrifice of the altar. VVherby, may appeare vpon how vveake groundes both catholike religion vvas changed in England; as also the fore-recounted Foxian Martyrs did build their new opinions, and offer themselues to the fire for the same, vvhich vvas chiefly vpon the creditt of the said disputations. By N.D.; Review of ten publike disputations.	Parsons, Robert, 1546-1610.	1604 (1604)	STC 19414; ESTC S105135	194,517	376

true throughout England wherein concurred also the vvhole Christian vvorld abroad from the tyme before by me prefixed of our first conuersion and more euen from the Apostles dayes neyther could any tyme be appointed or memory brought forth when how or by whome the said doctrines had their beginnings in England or els where which accordinge to S. Augustines rule and diuers particular demonstrations layd downe by vs before in the first part of the Treatise of three Conuersions doth euidently couuince that they came from Christ and his Apostles themselues vvhich ought to be sufficient though no other proofes of Scriptures Fathers Doctors and Councells could be shewed in particular for the same as may be almost infinite and some yow shall heare a little after in this Chapter 4. And as for the second question of Transubstantiation though yt be but a certayne appendix of the first about the manner how Christ is really in the Sacrament as before hath byn shewed was not so particularly declared and defined by the Church in this very tearme of Transubstantiation vntill some 400. yeares gone in the generall Councell of Lateran as neyther the doctrine of homusion or consubstantiality was vntill 300. yeares after Christ in the Councell of Nice neyther the dignity of theotoces wherby the blessed Virgin is called the Mother of God vntill the Councell of Ephesus aboue 400. yeares after Christ yet was the same doctrine euer true before from the beginninge and vttered by the Fathers in other equiualent words speaches of changes and Transmutations of natures conuersions of substances and the like and when there had not byn such other euident proofes extant for the truth therof yet the consent and agreement of so great and vniuersall a Councell of Christendome as the said Lateran was wherin both the Greeke and Latyn Church agreed and after great and longe searche by readinge disputinge prayinge conferringe of Scriptures and Fathers and other such meanes concluded this doctrine to be truth Yf there had byn I say nothinge els for English Catholiks to rest vpon in this point but the generall consent and agreement of so learned holy and venerable an assembly yt might iustly seeme sufficient in the sight of an indifferent or reasonable man to weygh and ouerweygh against the particular iudgements of all the innouators of any age to the contrary and so no maruayle though they stood so earnest against that innouation this being the state of the controuersie on their part 5. But now for the Protestants the state of their question was farre different For first wheras Martyn Luther about the 9. or 10. yeare of K. Henryes raigne had begon some noueltyes about the second and third question of Transubstantiation and Sacrifice holding still the first of the reall presence for firme and that three of his first schollers Oecolampadius Carolstadius and Zuinglius full sore against his will takinge occasion of his innouations had added others of their owne about the said first question denyinge the reall presnce though in different sorts and that after them againe Iohn Caluyn a French-man had diuised a third manner of beleefe therin not a little different from them all about the said doctrine both affirminge denyinge the reall presence in different manner and sound of words yt seemed good to our English Protestants at that tyme or the more part therof to choose the last and newest opinion of all and to establish yt by parlament banishinge ther vpon the ould faith that euer vntill that day had byn held and beleeued in our countrey as well by themselues as others 6. And thus came in the first new Religion ●nto England by some shew of publike authority which being sett forth with so great applause and ostentation both of publike disputations colloquyes conferences lectures preachings exposition of scriptures and consent of Parlament as yow haue heard did partly by this outward shew and ostentation of authority partly by the pleasinge face of ●ouelty yt selfe and sweet freedome that yt brought from all former Ecclesiasticall discipline so infect and enchaunt the harts iudgements affections of diuers of the common people and some also of the learned but the ●ighter and more licentious sort as afterward vvhen Q. Mary came to take accoumpt and vvould recall them againe to the station vvhich they had forsaken they chose rather of ●ride and obstinacy to suffer any thinge yea ●o dye and go to the fire then to renounce these new fancyes once fastened vpon them ●nto which pertinacity the fame of the forsaid Protestants disputations did not a little animate them for that yt was giuen out generally and so doth Fox stand stiffely in the same that the Sacramentaryes had the vpper hand in all as well against the Lutherans in the first question of reall presence as against the Catholiks in that and all the rest vvhich bragg how vayne yt was will appeare after when we come to examine their arguments in particular 7. But yet before we come to that two other points seeme expedient to be performed for better direction of the readers vnderstandinge in these high misteryes of our faith the first to see what sure grounds the Catholiks had and haue at this day to stand firme and immoueable in their old beleefe about these articles notwithstandinge any plausible or deceytfull arguments of sense and reason that may be brought against them secondly certayne obseruations wherby the force or rather fraud of hereticall obiections may be discouered which so beguyled many simple people in Q. Maryes dayes and made them runne headlonge to their perdition the first of these points I shall handle in this Chapter the second in the next that followeth Catholike groundes of these three articles and first of the reall presence §. 1. 8. The first ground that Catholike men haue of these and all other misteryes of Christian faith that are aboue the reach of common sense and reason is the authority of the Catholike Church by which they were taught the same as points of faith reuealed from God And this is such a ground as we see by experience that the most part of people of what Religion soeuer being yonge or vnlearned can yeld no other reason in effect why they beleeue this or that article of theire faith but for that they receaued the same from their Church and teachers therof being not able themselues to searche out any other grounde therof yea the most learned of all from their infancy tooke all vpon this assurance only of their Church which Church yf they held to be of infallible authority so as she can neither be deceaued nor deceaue as we do of the Catholike then should they rest firme sure in their opinion vpon this ground but yf they hould that all Churches may erre and bringe into error both in doctrine and manners as yow haue heard Martyn Bucer hold before in his Cambridge conclusions and most

sectaryes of our tyme do follow him in that assertion then can they haue no ground or certainty this way but each man and woman must seeke other grounds and proofes and stand vpon their owne iudgements for triall of the same which how well the most part of people can do being eyther yonge simple vnlearned or otherwayes so busyed in other matters as they cannot attend thervnto euery man of meane discretion will consider and consequently they must needs be said both to liue and dye vvithout any ground of their faith at all but proper opinion and so perish euerlastingely 9. The famous Doctor S. Augustine handleth this matter in a speciall booke to his frend Honoratus deceaued by the Manichies as himselfe also sometymes had byn and he intituleth his booke De vtilitate credendi of the profitt that commeth to a man by beleeuing the Church and points of faith therin taught without demaundinge reason or proofe therof which the Manichies derided and said that they required nothinge to be beleeued of their followers but that which first should be proued to them by good proofe and reason and not depend only of mens creditt but the holy Father scorneth this hereticall bragg and oftentation of theirs and commendeth highly the contrary custome of simple beleeuinge vpon the creditt of the Catholike Church for that otherwise infinite people should haue no faith at all and exhorteth his frend Honoratus to take the same course first to beleeue and after to seeke the reason His discourse is this Fac nos nunc primum quaerere cuinam Religioni animas nostras c. Suppose that we now first of all did seeke vnto what Religion we should commit our soules to be purged and rectified without all doubt we must begin with the Catholike Church for that she is the most eminent now in the world there being more Christians in her at this day then in any other Church of Iewes and Gentills put togeather And albeit amongst these Christians there may be sects and heresies and all of them would seeme to be Catholiks and do call others besides themselues heretiks yet all graunt that yf we consider the whole body of the world there is one Church amongst the rest more eminent then all other more plentifull in number as they which know her do affirme more sincere also in truth but as concerninge truth we shall dispute more afterward now yt is sufficient for them that desire to learne that there is a Catholike Church which is one in yt selfe whervnto diuers heretiks do feigne and diuise diuers names wheras they and their sects are called by peculiar names which themselues cannot deny wherby all men that are indifferent not letted by passion may vnderstand vnto what Church the name Catholike which all parts desire pretend is to be giuen 10. Thus S. Augustine teachinge his frend how he might both know and beleeue the Catholike Church and all that shee taught simply and without asking reason or proofe And as for knowing and discerning her from all other Churches that may pretend to be Catholike we heare his marks that she is more eminent vniuersall greater in number and in possession of the name Catholike The second that she may be beleeued securely and cannot deceaue nor be deceaued in matters of faith he proueth elswhere concluding finally in this place Si iam satis tibi iactatus videris c. Yf thou dost seeme to thy selfe now to haue byn sufficiently tossed vp and downe amonge sectaryes and wouldst putt an end to these labours and tormoyles follow the way of Cath. discipline which hath flowen downe vnto vs from Christ by his Apostles and is to flow from vs to our posterity 11. This then is the iudgement and direction of S. Augustine that a man should for his first ground in matters of faith looke vnto the beleefe of the greatest most eminent Church of Christendome that hath endured longest embraceth most people hath come downe from our fore-fathers with the name of Catholike not only among her owne professors but euen among her enemyes Iewes infidells and heretiks and so is termed held by them in their common speach as the said Father in diuers others places declareth at large Which rule of direction yf we will follow about these three articles of faith now proposed the reall presence Transubstantiation and Sacrifice of the masse yt is easily seene what ground we haue for their beleefe in this kind of proofe so highly esteemed by S. Augustine which is the authority of the vniuersall Cath. Church For that when Luther and his followers began to oppose themselues in our dayes no man can deny but that our beleefe in these articles was generally receaued ouer all Christendome as well Asia and Africa where so euer Christians be as Europe and so vpward tyme out of mynd neither can any beginning be assigned to these doctrines in the Cath. Church but only a certayne definition and determination of some Councells about the name of Transubstantiation as after shal be declared 12. Now then hauinge found out this first ground which S. Augustine and other Fathers do make so great accoumpt of which is the authority and beleefe of that Church that generally is called Catholike Yf we passe further and see what grounds this Church had or hath to admytt the same which yet is not needfull or possible to all sortes of men for that only can be done by the learneder sort we shall find that she hath such grounds as may conuince any man that is not obstinate and indurate to the contrary And first to begin with the article of the reall presence what ground proofe or Theologicall demonstration can there bee which the Cath. Church hath not for her beleefe in that high mistery which as it was to be one of the cheefest most sacred and admirable of Christian Religion so was yt meet that yt should be confirmed by all the principall wayes that any article of faith could or can be confirmed that is to say both by scriptures of the ould and new Testament and the true exposition therof by auncient Fathers that liued before this controuersie began with Sacramentarye● by authority and tradition of the Apostles and their successors by testimony of auncient Fathers from age to age by consent and agreement practise and vse of the vniuersall Church by the concourse and approbation of almighty God with euident and infinite miracles by confession of the aduersaryes and other such generall heads of arguments which Catholike diuines do produce for this truth for iustifyinge the Churches faith therin 13. And out of the scriptures their demonstration is not single or of one sort only but in diuers manners as to the height and dignity of so diuine and venerable a mystery was conuenient For that out of the ould Testament they shew how yt was prefigured and prophesied and in the new both promised

Christs institution This is my body which can haue no other probable exposition but that the bread is chaunged into his body And so yt is expounded by all the forsaid Fathers and others that before this controuersie fell out interpreted the same words of our Sauiour 31. These grounds then had the English Catholiks in K. Edwards dayes to stand in the defence of this doctrine that is to say the cleere words of scripture so vnderstood by all antiquity togeather with the assertions and asseuerations of all the Fathers the determination of Councells presently vpon the controuersie first moued and namely of that great famous Lateran Councell wherin concurred both the Greeke and Latyn Church there being present the Greeke patriarks of Constantinople and Hierusalem 70. metropolitan Archbishops and aboue a thousand and two hundred other Fathers of diuers states degrees compare this with a meeting of some twenty or thirty ministers impugninge the same All which hauinge disputed the matter and considered as well by scripture and by ancient tradition of the Fathers and vniuersall Cath. Church what had byn held before did with full agreement determine declare this matter accursinge whosoeuer should from that tyme foreward deny that doctrine of Transubstantiation Which decree of that Councell being receaued generally vvithout contradiction throughout the Christian world hath byn confirmed by seauen other Councells since that tyme as before we haue shewed And let the discreet reader vveigh vvith himselfe vvhich party hath more security for yt selfe eyther the Catholike that followed all this authority consent of antiquity or our new Protestants that vpon fresh imaginations of their owne heads diuised a new doctrine contrary to all this antiquity And thus much of this article for a tast of that which may be alleaged for yt Groundes for the sacrifice of the masse §. 2. 32. The third question proposed to be handled in the foresaid disputations was about the sacrifice of the masse to witt whether the selfe-same body of our Lord whose reall presence is proued in the first question be not only a Sacrament in the Christian Church as yt is receaued vnder a signe of bread and wyne by the Priest and communicants but a sacrifice also as yt is offered to God the Father by the Priest vpon the Altar and whether this externall and visible sacrifice be appointed by Christ to be iterated and dayly frequented in the Church vnto the worlds end and this both for an externall worshipp peculiar to Christians whereby they are distinguished from all other people as also for propitiation of sinnes by applyinge the meritt and vertue of the other bloudy sacrifice of our Sauiour on the Crosse once offered for all and euer auayleable as S. Paul at large declareth in his epistle to the Hebrewes for sanctifyinge the redeemed this then being the question and this being a doctrine so generally receaued throughout the Christian world both in the Greeke Latin AEthiopian Armenian and other Christian Churches as there was no doubt or question therof when Luther and his ofspring began yt fell out in England that vnder the child King Edward his raigne name authority that the L. Seymour protect our and his followers with some few Priests that were weary of massinge and desirous of marriage but cheefly Cranmer and Ridley Hooper Latymer and others bad heads of the cleargy in those dayes tooke vpon them to pull downe this publike vse of sacrifice and afterward to examine and call in question the doctrine therof At which chaunge and suddayne innouation neuer seene in England before from the first day that Christian Religion entred vnder the Apostles as all the realiues and contreyes round about remayned astonished so diuers notwithstanding of the lighter sort enclyned to noueltyes applauded to them followed their diuise others more prudent and respectiue to their owne saluation consideringe that there went more in this matter then the pleasure and fancyes of a few particular men stood constant in that which before they had receaued and that which generally they saw and knew to be in vse throughout all Christendome without cōtradiction which could not be by S. Austens rule but that yt must needs come downe from the Apostles themselues for so much as all opposite doctrine to that which was first planted by them receaued from them could neuer be so generally admitted without contradiction 33. Wherfore entringe into due consideration of this matter whilst all the ruffe ran the other way for 5. or 6. yeares space vnder that King Child and those other little tyrants that bare sway and one destroyed the other by Gods iust iudgement vnder him These good men the Catholikes I meane fell to search what grounds they had or might find out for this so receaued a doctrine practise as this of the masse and sacrifice was And first they found that wheras the first insult of heretiks was against the very name of the masse as a new diuised thinge without reason or signification they found I say that it was a very ancient and vsuall word for the externall sacrifice of Christians vpon the Altar in the Latyn Church for twelue hundred yeares past and downeward in place wherof the Grecians haue vsed the word Liturgie Synaxis and the like and this vse is not only to be shewed by the testimonyes of particular Fathers as Saint Ambrose S. Augustine S. Leo S. Gregory Victor Vticensis Cassianus and other but by whole Councells also as by that of Rome vnder Pope Siluester the first of 275. Bishops held almost 1300. yeares gone the second fourth of Carthage held the next age after and the Councell of Agatha in France the same age the Councell of Ilerdum and Valentia in Spaine and of Orleance in France all aboue 1000. yeares gone which was sufficient matter against the vanyty of heretiks that condemned the name the words for example of S. Ambrose sayinge Missam facere coepi orare in oblatione Deum I began to say masse and to pray to God in the oblation of the sacrifice and those of S. Austen In lectione quae nobis ad missas legenda est audituri sumus We shall heare or this matter more in the lesson which is to be read vnto vs at masse These speaches I say this practise of so ould learned holy Priests as these and their fellowes were did preuayle more with the grauer sort of English people then the lightnesse inconstancy of Cranmer Ridley and such other licentious Priests as for liberty fell to Apostasie 34. And this for the name of the masse But for the nature and substance therof which conteyneth the externall true and proper sacrifice of the Christian Church they found such store of euident proofes and most graue authorityes as might stay confirme and satisfie any mans mynd that were not willfully bent to the

themselues do graunt that yf Christ be there really present yt cannot be denyed but that he is there also by Transubstantiation of bread into his body for so Father Latymer yf yow remember affirmed before in his disputations when he was said once to haue byn a Lutheran which Lutherans do hould both Christs body and bread to be togeather in the Sacrament he aunswered I say that he could neuer perceaue how Luther could defend his opinion without Transubstantiation that the Tygurynes being also Sacramentaryes did write a booke against him in this behalfe prouinge belike that in grauntinge the reall presence as he did he must needs graunt Transubstantiation also wherin they had great reason for that in truth the imagination of Luther and Lutherans that Christs body and bread doe stand togeather vnder the same formes and accidents and be receaued togeather being so different substances is a most grosse and fond imagination so as the Lutherans graunting the one denying the other are condemned of absurdity euen by the Zuinglians themselues as yow see and as we say also iustly 2. And on the other side we say in like manner as before hath byn noted that the Zuinglians and Caluinists and other Sacramentaryes denyinge wholy the said reall presence do in vayne wrangle about Transubstantiation For as he that should deny for example sake that any substance of gould were in a purse or any substance of wyne in a barrell should in vaine dispute whether the gold were there alone or togeather with some baser metall as siluer tynne or copper or whether the wyne were there alone or in company of water so in this controuersie yt is an idle disputation for Sacramentaryes to discusse whether the substance of Christs reall flesh be alone in the Sacrament or togeather with the substance of bread for so much as they deny yt to be there at all 3. Yet notwithstanding for that their cheefe altercation is about this point as by their disputations may appeare I shall breefely examine their grounds vvhich accordinge to B. Ridleyes ostentation vttered in Cambridge out of the diuinity chayre vnder King Edward the sixt as before yow haue heard are fiue in number sett forth in these vauntinge words The principall grounds or rather head-springs of this matter are specially fiue First the authority maiestie verity of holy scriptures the second the most certayne testimonyes of the auncient Catholike Fathers the third The definition of a Sacrament the fourth The abhominable heresie of Eutiches that may ensue of Transubstantiation The fifth the most sure beleefe of the article of our faith He ascended into heauen And then a little after he concludeth thus These be the reasons vvhich persuade me to en●lyne to this sentence and iudgement 4. Heere yow see the principall grounds or rather head springs that persuaded Ridley to inclyne or rather declyne for yet he seemed not fully setled in this article of beleefe And albeit these grounds may seeme to conteyne somewhat in shew and sound of words yet when the substance thereof commeth to be examined they are found to be idle and puffed vp with words indeed For first what authority maiesty and verity of scriptures doth this man bring forth trow you for confirmation of this his vaunt truly nothing in effect or of any shew or probability but only that yt is called bread and wyne in the scripture after the words of consecration For which purpose he hauinge alleaged the words of Christ I will not drinke heerafter of this fruite of the vyne vntill I do drinke yt new vvith yow in the kingdome of my Father he inferreth that the fruite of the vyne is wyne which we graunt vnto him do hould is called wyne by him after the consecration as his flesh after the words of consecration is called bread by S. Paul S. Luke and other Apostles affirming yt notwithstanding to be his owne true body and flesh but retayninge the name of bread for that yt was made of bread and was bread before as the serpent was called the rodd of Aaron for that yt was made of that rodd and not because yt was not a true serpent afterwards though yt were still called a rodd and to signifie this that bread conuerted into Christs flesh is not really bread afterward but the true flesh of Christ though yt retayne the former name of bread yt is not simply called bread but with some addition as bread of life bread of heauen this bread and the like And finally Christ himselfe doth expound what bread yt is in S. Iohns ghospell when he saith The bread that I shall giue yow is my flesh for the life of the vvorld 5. Heere then yow see that Ridleyes text of scripture I vvill not drinke hereafter of the fruite of the vyne vntill I drinke yt new vvith yow in the Kingdome of my Father doth not proue that yt was materiall wine which he dronke for that he should then drinke materiall wyne also in heauen And yet assoone as Ridley had brought forth this place as though he had done a great feate and fully performed his promise for proofe of the authority maiesty and verity of scripture he beginneth presently to excuse himselfe for that he hath no more store sayinge There be not many places of scripture that do confirme this thinge neyther is yt greatly materiall for yt is inough yf there be any one plaine testimony for the same Lo whervnto this vaunt of the authority maiesty and verity of holy scriptures is come to witt to one place vnderstood and interpreted after his owne meaninge alone against the vnderstandinge of all antiquity And though he go about afterwards to scrape togeather diuers other parings of scripture nothinge at all to the purpose as Yow shall not breake any bone of his Do yow this in my remembrance labour for the meate that perisheth not this is the worke of God that they beleeue in him whome he hath sent he that eateth my flesh and drinketh my bloud dwelleth in me and I in him and some other like places yet as yow see by his owne confession they are not plaine places and consequently his vauntinge of authority maiesty and verity of scriptures commeth to iust nothinge indeed but only to words and wynde Lett vs see what he bringeth for his other foure grounds and headsprings 6. The second is the most certayne testimonyes of the auncient Catholike Fathers This we shall examine afterwards when we haue considered of the other three yet may yow marke by the way that he vseth heere also the superlatiue degree of most certayne testimonyes which certainty of testimonyes yow shall find afterward to be like his maiesty of scriptures already alleaged Wherfore let vs see his third ground The third ground saith he is the nature of the Sacrament which consisteth in three things vnity nutrition and