shall not be to ani purpose in way of answere that anie aduersarie bringe another interpretation of some father vpon the places of scripture alleaged by me beside that which I haue brought For it is not denyed that one and the same place of scripture may be and is often diuerslie vnderstoode not onlie of diuerse fathers but of one and the same father But if he will say anie thinge to the purpose in this kinde he must bringe an interpretation contradictinge that which I haue brought and withall labour rather to prooue his owne doctrine then to impugne that of the catholickes For seeinge it is as all men knowe a farr more easie thinge to impugne anie doctrine thoughe neuer so true then to prooue the same no truth especiallie of faith beinge so euidentlie cleare but that somethinge with shewe of probabilitie may be obiected against it it is not nowe expected that anie aduersarie should stand to answere those authorities of scripture and fathers which I haue alleaged for proofe of the catholicke doctrine or to impugne the same but rather to bring others in proofe of his owne That the iudicious reader may compare our groundes in scripture both together and by the viewe of his owne eie try whether of them be more conformeable to gods sacred worde And wheÌ„ anie one shall haue produced his proofes for protestantisme in like manner as I haue in the behalfe of the catholicke religion if he can so doe yett shall he gaine no more thereby but an euident demonstration against the cheefest groundes of the protestants doctrine that eitherto the true and full decision of controuersies in matter of faith is necessarilie required some other iudgment or tryall then the onlie wordes of holie scripture or else that there is no meanes at all to end matters of controuersies of faith which latter neuerthelesse to affirme is no lesse iniurious to gods wisdome goodnes and power then to say that he hath prouided no sufficient meanes for men to knowe the way to saue their soules For both parties bringinge scriptures for themselues who shall finallie determine whether of them doth applie the sayd scriptures more sincerelie and according to theire true meaninge PILK Your demaundes doe so crosse one another as if your thoughts had been at warres together First you prescribe your aduersarie howe he shall answere you not by bringing another sence of anie father vppon the place of scripture alleaged by you but a coÌ„tradictorie And theÌ„ you forbidde him to answere either scripture or father vrged by you but to fortifie prooue his owne doctrine But you must be coÌ„teÌ„t whether you wil or noe to suffer your aduersary to vnmaske your fraude and to open the vayle of your cunninge dealing both in your doubtfull positions and impertinent allegations by sheweinge the natiue sence of the scriptures euen from the fathers to haue no concurrence with your imaginations but to contradict them and then he will be content to acquainte you with the groundes of his doctrine which either ignorantlie you mistake or purposelie peruert which beinge paralleld with yours the reader may iudge on which side the truth standeth CHAMP Your head is so full of crochets that you imagine my wordes to crosse one another or else you say so onlie to make your lesse heedfull reader to thinke so vppon your creditt I neither prescribe to mine aduersarie how hee should answere mee neither doe I forbidd him to answere either scripture or Fathers alleaged by me as you are pleased to faigne out of your owne braine which notwithstandinge if I hadd donne yett hadd there been no crossinge betwixte those thinges as euerie man may easilie see but I tel him what manner of answere wil be to the purpose and what will not and further I require he should first sett downe his owne beleefe with the proofe thereof out of the scriptures which two thinges doe not crosse one another in anie mans iudgment but yours besides the reasoÌ„ which I geue both for the one and the other is clearlie good and true For your vnmaskinge of my fraude spare it not in gods name and I promise you that if you discouer but one quarter of those blotttes and blemishes in my face that I haue alreadie donne in yours I will hide it for euer that it neuer appeare in publike more But nowe I will hearken howe you wil performe the greate thinges you here promise PILK But this is no parte of your meaninge at all that your reader shoulde trye by the scriptures as the Bereans did and so rest himselfe satisfied CHAMP My meaninge good Sr. is that the reader should searche the scriptures alleaged by me in proofe of the catholicke saith and trâ—e whether he finde them not so as I haue cited them which the Bereans did Whereby he shall finde the chatholicke doctrine to be trulie grounded vppon the holy scriptures and consormeable vnto them as the Bereans did finde S Paules doctrine to be thoughe they were boundâ— to beleeue his preachinge without that research PILK But your drifte is after you haue sett the scriptures togeather by the eares to thrust vppon him the authoritie of the Pope who must finallie determine on which side the sence of the scripture bendeth and then I doubte not but you shall winne the day CHAMP My drifte is to make the reader see that the catholike faith hath true grounde in the holy scriptures and if you or anie other will shewe the same for your newe doctrine the reader must necessarilie see that he must finde somes meanes to knowe to whether side the true sence of the scriptures doth trulie agree And if he finde that the Pope who is cheife head of all those to whom our Sauiour sayde he that heareth you heareth me geueth sentence for the allegations on the catholicke side as you confesse there is no doubte but he will If he haue anie true care of his soule he will beleeue and followe that parte PILK For thus you carrie the matter when both parties haue brought scriptures for themselues out the letter of the scriptures not opposinge the letter to the sence as you falselie say I meane but seekinge and takinge the sence from the letter onlie Is not this your doctrine in this verie section you cannot denie it vnlesse you haue a face to say and vnsay at euerie turne Cast vp therefore once more your owne cardes and see what other Iudge you make of controuersies besides the onlie wordes of scripture Therefore either blushe your selfe or if your face be so brasen that you cannot bidd some other blush for you that you either vnderstande not your owne doctrine or are ashamed to acknoweledge and maintaine it I knowe to what end is all this florishe of wordes to raise vppe a little smoake before your readers eies that you may steale away and leaue the difficultie which you knowe presseth you harde vutouched you shall not scape so I wisse PILK If then
especiallie to be beleeued Whereupon in another place speakinge of the faith wherewith we beleeue the scriptures he willeth vs to followe those who inuite vs first to beleeue that which we are not able to conceiue that beinge made more stroÌ„ge in faith we may attaine to vnderstande that which we beleeue God himselfe confirminge and inwardlie inligthenninge our mindes and not men This is sufficient to shewe that neither arte nor order requireth at your handes to prooue the scriptures as you disorderlie imagine CHAMP The scriptures or verities conteyned in them are confessed to be principles in respect of all Theologicall conclusions deduced from them and therefore in respect of them they neede no farther proofe to anie christian diuine that beleeueth them to be the worde of God But they are not principles in respect of the articles of our faith in generall but are themselues to be beleeued for the same authoritie of God reueylinge as all other articles of faith are And that they are not necessarie principles of the articles of our â—aith it is manifest by that before the scriptures were written the churche of God beleeued manie of the same articles which nowe it beleeueth Therfore when you say the scriptures or verities contained in them are primae veritatis if ignorance thoughe grosse and not to be excused in a doctour of diuinitie doth not excuse you you will make the scriptures not onlie to be gods worde but also to be God himselfe For besides him there is no prima veritas which is to be beleeued for it selfe as vppon better consideration I thinke you will not dare to denie Seeinge therefore the scriptures are not primae veritatis or first truthe but the testimonies wordes or verities reueiled by the first truthe they are not euen by your owne grounde to be beleeued for themselues but for the truthe and authoritie of the first veritie God himselfe of whose reuelation we must haue sufficient grounde before we canne securelie and prudentlie beleeue the scriptures to be his worde That which you bringe out of S. Thomas maketh euidentlie against you so iudicious are you in your allegations For the scriptures beinge not God they are not the first truth and therefore not to be beleeued for themselues S. Aug. in the first place maketh also against you sayinge that the scriptures are to be beleeued to bee of gods spiritt and not to be knowne For to beleeue this he recurreth not to the scriptures themselues but to the authoritie which they had obtayned throughe the whole worlde The second authoritie of S. Aug. is wholie impertinent to your purpose as the reader thoughe but of meane iudgmeÌ„t will easilie discerne Hee sayinge nothinge that soundeth as if the scriptures were to be beleeued for themselues or without other authoritie And therfore thus farr haue you saide nothinge that may satisfie this assertion of the Manuall that in the orderlie proceedinge in this present poincte the scriptures shoulde first be prooued but you will peraduenture satisfie better hereafter PILK Yett further to satisfy you I answere that the scriptures doe sufficientlie prooue theÌ„selues and these and these bookes to be the scripture both by that inwarde light that is contained in them and that outwarde operation that they haue in vs. For first they are a lanterne to our feete and a light to our path a candle that shineth in a darke place And as a light doth discouer those thinges that are in darkenes and demonstrateth also it selfe vnto the eies saith Aug. so doth the holy scriptures by that connatur all light that is in them manifest themselues vnto those whose vnderstandinge is enlightened to behoulde them Which if you cannot perceiue desire God to remoue the scales from your eies as he did from Paules for this is a case so cleare that Stapleton graunteth it credenti scriptura seipsam probat commendat CHAMP All this proueth noe other thinge then that to christians and catholikes who belieue the scriptures to be the worde of God and vnderstand it in the sence of the churche they haue all these properties of light lampe and lanterne and this is it which Stapleton expreslie saith if hou had taken but verie ordinarie heede to his wordes But to say that either to a Pagan who beleeueth not the scriptures to be Gods worde or to an heretike who vnderstandeth them not in the sence of the churche but accordinge to his owne fancie they are such as doe manifest themselues to be the worde of God is a most sencelesse Paradox contradicted by manifest experience not onlie in Martin Luther and all his disciples who as you knowe reiect diuerse bookes receiued by Caluin and his followers but also of the auncient and holy fathers who did not vniuersallie receiue as Canonicall Scripture all such bookes of the newe testament as nowe are receiued by you And yett none of all these I suppose you will say wanted light to see that which is manifest of it selfe PILK Againe they are knowne by theire operation in vs for the worde of the Lorde is pure and conuerts the soule a two edged sworde Heb. 4. 12. a verie fierie worde psal 119. 14. which purifieth the soules inflameth the affections enlighteneth the vnderstandinge and so softeneth the heart of the hearer that it frameth it sitt to all goodnes Which noe other worde or worke deuised by the witt of men or Angells canne doe Where vppoÌ„ LactaÌ„tius speakinge of the differeÌ„ce betweene the doctrine of the gentills of the churche saith that the wisdome of the Philosophers doth not roote out vice but hide it whereas a fewe precepts of God so change the whole man and mould him a newe by castinge away the ould that one would not thinke him to be the same Geue me a man that is wrathfull euill tougued vnbridled by a fewe wordes of God I will make him meeke as a lambe Geue me a couetous auaritious and tenacious man I will restore him liberall and distributinge his money with his owne handes Geue me a man fearfull of sorrowe and death he shall contemne crosses fires dangers bulls c. By one lauer shall all malice be expelled such is the force of diuine wisdome that beinge powered into the brest of man it expelleth folly att one blowe that is the mother of all vices What man then that hath his hearte thus mollified his will rectified his vnderstandinge cleared and his whole course suddenlie altered can deliberatelie doubte of the scriptures seinge Christe himselfe teacheth vs thus to knowe them Is anie will performe the will of his father he shall knowe of the doctrine whether it be good or noe CHAMP In whome I pray you doth the scripture worke these effects you haue here so industriously numbred vp in those that beleeue them not to be true or to be the worde of God you will not say so I suppose Why doe you therefore bring these arguments to prooue the scriptures to be easily knowne to
be god worde that they are manifest of themselues and neede not to be prooued Because you will euer be impertinent not knowinge what you say nor what you shoulde prooue and yet are you so full of bable that you will still be be talkinge If one shoulde aske your aduise howe he might knowe good Phisicke and you shoulde say vnto him it is an easie thinge to knowe that For that phisike which coÌ„forteth nature expelleth disseases and restoreth health is certainlie good phisicke doe you thinke he shoulde be much wiser for your aduise whatsoeuer you thinke I knowe he shoulde be as wise as he was before Such is your directions to knowe the scripture vnto such as doe not alreadie knowe or beleeue them And seeinge our Sauiour himselfe prescribeth as a necessarie rule to knowe the scriptures the performance of his fathers will before his doctrine canne be vnderstoode as you well note but stil against your selfe it is euident that they are not so cleare of theÌ„selues nor yett so easie to be knowne as you pretend For that doctrine which must first be practised by humble obedience before it can be vnderstoode or knowne to be of God as our Sauiour saith of the scripture noe man that is not deuoyde of all iudgment wil say is easie to be knowne euen by it selfe PILK I might add all those arguments which both the fathers and schoolemen produce out of the scriptures themselues to prooue them the ofspringe of God which if they be stronge against gentiles I knowe not howe they should be weake against you vid. the maiestie of the doctrine the simplicitie and puritie of the stile antiquitie of the bookes truth of oracles and predictions that manie ages after held their complement with sundrie other to the like purpose but I passe by them and shutt vppe this pointe with that speeche of your Stewchus CHAMP You were well aduised to passe by all such arguments of the fathers and schoolemen as woulde nothinge serue your purpose I woulde you had been so aduised from the begininge for soe shoulde I not haue hadd the labour and paynes to transcribe so manie impertinencies of yours as I haue been forced to doe hitherto The arguments which you here mention taken by themselues are farr from makinge anie sufficient grounde to builde our faith vppon thoughe they are probable and prudent considerations and ioyned with the authoritie of the churche and tradition wherby â—e receiue the scriptures they are not without some force to persuade the bookes of the holy Bible to be gods worde and to be written by his inspiration But take you experience of them in your selfe and see whether they are sufficient to persuade that the bookes of Wisdome Ecclesiastious and the rest receiued generallie by the whole churche and namelie by the fathers and schoolemen whose authoritie here you seeme to vrge for canonicall are trulie gods worde and written by his holy spiritt And if you finde them not sufficient groundes for these why woulde you intrude them vppon vs as sufficient for the rest But lett vs heare what you bringe out of our Stewchus PILK They which thinke the authoritie of holy scriptures whereunto all the worlde nowe assenteth to depende vppon the readers faith and not to bringe with them certaine diuine and most potent reasons that drawe vnto them the iudgements of greate mindes are therefore deceiued because they are not of theire number whose mindes both by naturall goodnes and continuall exercitation of wisdome doe prudentlie apprehend the highest and truest thinges whereas if anie haue that wisedome geuen him to esteeme the greatnes of thinges as they deserue he shall feele the weight of diuine oracies to be so greate that the pronunciation of them onlie would suffice to begett a most firme and suddaine faith CHAMP The whole space of a thousand and fiue hundred yeeres geuen you to take your testimonies out of might haue sufficed without alleaginge of moderne writers and those oâ— small note and lesse authoritie Stewchus is an author not wholly receiued and the booke cited by you is put in the index of bookes to be amended or corrected and therefore the testimonie thereof thoughe it were otherwise most formall as it is not is of noe authority against vs. And truelie I wounder you are not ashamed to bring such stuffe for the proofe of your faith and doctrine And that in such sorte as you haue lett passe all other and made choyce of this as of moste strength and force Lett the iudicious reader nowe iudge by that which hath been sayde both by you and me whether the scriptures are so clearelie knowne by themselues and by theire owne light that they neede no other proofe to be gods worde and written by his spiritt And whether it he a needles or disorderlie thinge for him that pretendeth to prooue all the points of his faith by holy scripture to prooue first that there is a holie scripture and then to prooue in what bookes it is contayned And lastlie whether because you refusinge traditions and the churches authoritie by which onlie the holy scriptures are knowne cannot prooue the scriptures to be such and therefore receiuinge them vpon the credit of your owne fancie which consequentlie must be the fundamentall rule of your whole Faith doe not recurre to that shifte to say that the scriptures are so euident of themselues that they neede noe other proofe or testimonie but themselues MANVALL SECTION 7. And here occur by the way two thinges worthy of note The one that the scripture cannot be an vniuersall rule of our faith seeinge somethinges are to be beleeued without proofe of scripture as are for example that there is an holy scripture contayninge gods worde and reuelation and that these these bookes be such therefore of necessitie must there be some other rule of our faith more vniuersall then the scriptures and consequentlie before the scriptures And this cannot be but the authoritie of gods churche which is clearely S. August doctrine who was not a frayde to say I woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the authoritie of the church doth moue me Seeinge therefore the authoritie of the churche is a sufficient motiue for vs to beleeue what is scripture why shoulde it not haue the like authoritie with vs in other points of faith which is also S. Aug argument in the same place but I will notwithstandinge satisfie our aduersaries in theire owne humour PILK Your former grounde beinge a bedd of sande that scriptures cannott be prooued by scriptures these conclusions that you doe builde vppon it doe of themselues fall to the grounde CHAMP When you shall followinge your principles proue out of the scripture either that there is a scripture or in what bookes it is contayned without supposinge some scripture without proofe then may you terme my grounde to be a bedd of sande and I will also beleeue it so to be But till then I will esteeme it a rock that
breaketh all your batteries like as if they were balls of sande caste against a brasen wall And therefore the conclusions built vppon it will neither of themselues nor yett by all your forces fall to the grounde but will stande firme and stronge PILK First that the scriptures are not the vniuersall rule of faith a position so derogatorie to the testament of Christ and so contrarie to the doctrine of the auncient churche that I wounder howe you durst venture vppon it For the rule whereunto nothinge must be added nothinge detracted is an vniuersall and persecte rule such is the scripture which is Aquinas collection â— Tim. 6. For if anie addition or detraction might be made in the scriptures they could not be the rule att all As in a rule saith Photicus if yee adde or diminishe any thinge yee corrupte the whole And a rule saith Theophilact neither hath augmentation nor diminution soe is it in the scriptures which Chrisostome termeth the most experte rule Canon and Gnomon that can be if it admitte anie supplie it coulde not be the rule at all And if we must not be wise in matters diuine aboue that which is written then that which is written is the rule of our wisdome and faith But S. Paule forbiddeth that ranknes of witt to enquire further then that which is written This S. Aug. collecteth out of this place The holy scripture doth prefixe vnto vs the rule of our faith least we shoulde presume to be more wise then behoueth but as he saith let vs be wise vnto sobrietie as God hath diuided vnto euerie one the measure of faith Finallie if our faith doth lastlie resolue it selfe into the scriptures onlie then they alone are the rule and nothinge can be founde more vniuersall but this is graunted by your best diuines CHAMP Till it be prooued by expresse scripture that the scriptures are the vniuersall rule of our saith or that nothinge is to be beleeued but that which is prooued by scripture you cannot trulie say that my position is derogatorie to the Testament of Christ And because it can neuer be prooued by scripture that nothinge is to be beleeued but that which is prooued by expresse scripture your position is hereticall the contrarie thereof beinge clearelie testified by the scripture as shall appeare in the first and seconde controuersie vnto which places I will referr you for answere to your arguments which you there repeate as the more proper place Onlie I will not omitte to tell you here that you loose your creditt with al men by vtteringe such knowne vntruthes as that the best of our diuines doe graunte the â—ast resolution of our faith to â—ee into the scriptures onlie You shoulde haue named some one author att least to haue geuen creditt to your assertion PILK What then is the rule that is more vniuersall The authoritie of the churche say you Traditions saith Bellarmine the faith of the churche that is written in the heartes of the faithfull saith Stapleton soe friendlie doe the patrons of this errour accorde as if that curse wherewith God threatned the EgiptiaÌ„s had falleÌ„ vpon them I wil sett Egiptians against EgiptiaÌ„s they shal fight euerie one against his neighbour For if the authoritie of the churche doth make vppe the rule traditioÌ„s doe not beinge two thinges as different as the fountaine the streame the fruite and the tree For traditions flowe from the authoritie of the churche saith Stapleton Authoritie of the churche is the churches testimonie tradition is doctrine not a testimonie onlie This therefore is neither a more vniuersall rule nor yet before it which is your seconde conclusion and which if it were true the churche shoulde be summa prima veritas for that for which we must beleeue the Ghospell and it for it selfe is the highest and first truth but you papists say so of the churche therefore you haue deiâ—yed and changed it into the deitie and so made it of Bethâ—â—â—â— and house of God to be Bethanan the house of iniquitie CHAMP There is as much diuersitie or discorde betweene all these sayinges of ours as a goode Logician would finde betweene viuens â—enâ—â—â—ns 〈◊〉 inâ—eâ—â—â—â—ns which being â—ubalterna are not in anie mans brayne disparaâ—a or opposita vnles in yours which is often contrarie to it selfe Both tradtions therefore and the authority of the churche are more vniuersal rules theÌ„ the scriptures And thoughe the one of them is more vniuersall and before the other yet neither of them is summa or prima veritas as you most ignorantlie affirme in the precedent section of the scriptures for the which intollerable ignorance you are iustlie reprehended there nor either of them is beleeued for it selfe but for the testimonie of God reuelinge theire veritie who onlie is beleeued for himselfe and his owne essentiall truth and veritie And therefore your childishe inference of changinge Bethell into Bethanan is a ridiculous conclusion of your owne ignorant premisses or a dreame of your owne idle and emptie braine But you will bringe more solid stuffe hereafter lett vs heare the rest PILK Besides if it be demaunded from whence the churche hath anâ—e such authoritie it is answered from the scriptures for which are produced sundrie testimonies He that heareth you heareth me Goe teach all nations If then the life of this authoritie be maintayned and supported by the scriptures they are the rule and measure of her and so before her and not reciprocalliâ— measured by her CHAMP When it is demanded by such as pretend to beleeue the scriptures as you make shewe to doe and yett deny the churches Authoritie as you heretically doe what proofe there is of the churches authority the scriptures are rightlie produced for the proofe thereof not that thee hath her authoritie from the scriptures as you either ignorantlie or negligentlie say for her authoritie she hath from God The authour of all power and authoritie but that this authoritie iâ— testified by the scripture And maruell it is to me that you your selfe findinge and feelinge such testimonie of holy scripture for the churches authoritie as you cite in this place doe not yett cease to impugne it But the truth is you beleeue and follow the scriptures so farr as your selfe list onlie and noe farther On the other side when it is demaunded by such as belieue neither scriptures nor the churche but yett seeke some groundes of christian beliefe it woulde be a ridiculous thinge to prooue the church by the scriptures seinge they are written taught and preached by the ministrie of meÌ„ whereof the church consisteth and did consist many hundreds of yeeres before there were anie scriptures att all In this case therefor it is cleare that the church hath other proofe then from the scriptures and before the scriptures which in that case must be prooued by the churche But what this proofe is and whence it is taken pertayneth not to this place to say Yet whatsoeuer it
by scripture to acknowledge I say this position to be false which notwithstandinge is one mayne grounde of all theire religion PILK When a souldier that killed Marius came to cutt of his head he drewe out his sworde and told him hie est gladius quem ipse fecisti for Marius formerlie had been a cutter The groundes that you haue layde cutt the throate of your faith but raseth not the skinne of the protestants For I haue shewed before that scriptures doe sufficiently prooue themselues to be the worde of God and these and these bookes to be such whereon it followeth your conuincinge demonstration that protestants beleeue nothinge att all to be a windy friuoulous discourse whereas such conclusions may be drawne from your principles as will prooue vulnera in capite canis you will not easilie licke them hole CHAMP Remoue the sworde first from your owne throate whiâ—hâ—â— presseth to harde and after may you atteÌ„pt to pietie your aduersarie with it You haue hitherto made a 〈…〉 able shewe of anie proofe but of your owne in reâ—lible ignorance and impertinencie ioyned with wilfull stande to deâ—eâ—â—e your reader If you defend your proâ—estaâ—â—s no better then hitherto you â—â—â—ue they will be euidentlie concluded to belieue nothinge att all by the argument proposed which 〈…〉 e you cannott tell where to begin to solue oâ— anâ—weâ—e you make a Thrasonicall and glorious shâ—we of contempt of it as manie of yours 〈◊〉 and 〈…〉 elie your grand maister Calluine when 〈…〉 most prest and hath least to say for himselfe Are you nâ—â— ashamed to lett myne argument stand as a â—â—â—phey against you your heresie without saying one worde in answere of it idlie supposinge that you haue sayde somethinge to it before But seeinge you dare not sett vppon mine argument to satisfi it which you should first haue donne lett vs see what incurable woundes you geue vnto me out of myne owne principles PILK For they that relie theire faith vppon humane testimonies originallie are conuinced to haue no faith att all for faith commeth by hearinge and hearinge by the worde of God But you papists relie your faith vppon humane testimonies originallie when you ground it on the authoritie of the churche which you say is a more vniuersall rule and more auncient then the scriptures Now then make the conclusion as pleaseth you CHAMP I graunte your proposition or maior and deny your minor For where learned you to terme the authoritie of the churche humane testimonie seeinge the holy ghost stileth the churche the house of God the piller and grounde of truth your conclusion therefore is blowne away like a fether So that the wounde which you thought woulde prooue so grieuous is not so much as the blowe of a litle childe Spitt therefore vppon your handes take better hold and strike more manfullie or else geue your bill to another But so hoodewinkt you are either with ignorance or malice that strikinge at your aduersarie you hitt your selfe For whilst you say with S. Paule that faith commeth by hearinge hearinge by the worde of God you prooue that the scripture or the word written which is not hearde but reade is not the first meanes of our saith but the worde of God preached as S. Paule sayth in the same place which was before the scriptures PILK From hence commeth all this warr that we will not grounde our faith vppon the totteringe wall of humane authoritie as you doe but cleaue fast to the sacred scriptures beleeuinge nothinge as Paule taught but that which was written in Moises and the prophetts which we reioyce to haue made the meane grounde of our religion CHAMP A stoute Champion I wisse that after the first blowe and that a verie weake one casteth downe his armes and thinkinge to ouerthrowe his aduersarie with wordes falleth to raylinge as if he hoped to gaine the victorie rather by his stinkinge breath then by strength of hande stroakes You hauing been att the schoole of the father of all falsehoode haue learned to call the churche of God and the infallible authoritie thereof the totteringe wall of humane authoritie which the holy ghoste by the mouth of this Apostle stileth the piller and ground of truth wherby as by manie other passages you shewe what honour and respect you beare vnto the holy scriptures seeinge you dare so disdainfullie debase the house of God which they so highelie prise and extoll You farther glorie in that you beleeue nothinge but which is written in Moises and the prophettes whereby you prooue your selfe to be a Iewe and no Christian Either retract this Iewishe proposition of yours or blotte out of your Bibles the whole newe testament that you may be knowne to be noe Christian and that you may fill vppe the measure of your grande mayster Martin Luther who hath longe since cast out diuers bookes out of the newe testament besides those he hath reiected out of the oulde You seeme to father this your fowle doctrine vppon S. Paule thoughe you dayne him not the honour of S. Paule but why doe you not poynte att the place where he teacheth it If S. Paule had been of this minde that you woulde seeme to make him of in vayne did he write his Epistells in vayne did the rest of the Apostles and Euangelists write theire workes Againe suppose S. Paule had written anie such thinge in his letters or Epistles howe woulde you make anie man beleeue that Epistle to be his and therefore to be canonicall scriptures vnlesse you will vse the authoritie of tradition and the churches testimonie All the witt and cunning you haue yea thoughe you borrowed all that of the rest of the ministers in the worlde will not shape a sufficient answere to this question PILK And which if we coulde not prooue yett canne we not be conuinced to haue noe faith because they are principles against which none dare open his mouth that anie way woulde haue himselfe to be counted a Christian as S. Aug. spake For as other artes and sciences are sufficientlie knowne credited without proofe of theire principles so matters diuine are perfectlie and demonstratiuelie persuaded vnto vs from this indemonstrable principle of the holy scriptures saith Clemens and are not prooued by iudgment but comprehended by faith CHAMP Why doe you say which iâ— we coulde not prooue as thoughe you had some meane to prooue it without traditions and the churches authoritie But they are principle you say and therefore not to be prooued The scriptures are principles of faith in deede in a certayne degree but they are not prime principles which onlie are to be beleeued for themselues without anie further proofe vnles as I toulde you before you will make them to be God who onlie is to be beleeued for his owne proper veritie and all other verities for him And when you say out of S. Aug. that none dare open their mouth against them that will be counted a
thinge deliuered in the worde CHAMP That is properlie an article of faith that is beleeued for diuine authoritie whether it be written or noe as were all these thinges the fathers beleeued before the lawe written And because we beleeue the bookes of Genesis for example and the rest of the holy Byble to be written by Gods reuelation therefore doe we beleeue them to be holy scripture and to containe gods worde Which therefore is properlie an article of faith no lesse then the misterie of the blessed trinitie beleeued for the same authoritie PILK Vppon this grounde I answere first in generall that none of these points are articles of faith CHAMP Vppon such a false grounde you are like to builde a good answere Is it no article of faith with you that the booke of Genesis is written by gods reuelation Tell me I pray you vnto what kinde of knowledge or assent you will reduce it I will confesse you a maister in diuinitie if you can make it well appeare by what other act of knowledge or vnderstandinge we assent vnto this veritie besides the act of faith Which if you cannot performe as assuredlie you cannott you must needes see this your first answere to be noe answere att all but a meere supposall of a manifest falsitie PILK Secondlie I answere to euerie one in particular I answere to the the first That all canonicall bookes and euerie parcell thereof be such is prooued out of themselues For besides that the ould testament prooueth the newe and the newe the old for whatsoeuer we read in the ould testament the same is founde in the gospell and whatsoeuer is founde in the gospell that is deduced from the authoritie of the ould testament as Hierome speaketh so in speciall euerie booke prooueth it selfe both by its owne light as formerlie was shewed and by the testimonie of Christ of the Prophets and Apostles that were the secretaries of the holy ghost The testimonie of our Sauiour Christ. Luc. 24. 44. These are the wordes which I spake vnto you while I was with you that all must needes be fulfilled which were written of me in the lawe of Moyses and in the prophetts and in the psalmes Of S. Paule 2. Tim. 3. 16. All scripture is geuen by the inspiration of God and is profitable to doctrine to reproofe to correction to instruction which is in righteousnes Of S. Peter the 2. epist 1. 21. The prophecie came not in olde tyme by the will of man but holy men of God spake as they were moued by the holy Ghost doe abundantlie prooue the bookes of the olde testament to be canonicall besides that there is not anie of them out of which some testimonie is not in the newe testament extant CHAMP Your second answere is as much to the purpose as your first Neither the old testament proouing the newe nor contrariwise vnles the one be beleeued before Yea you make your selfe ridiculous to all men by such a naturall or circulare proofe vnles you suppose the assured beleefe of some parte before For example if one shoulde demaunde of you how you knowe or why you doe beleeue those wordes of our Sauiour which you cite out of the 24 of S. Luke either to haue been spoken by him or written by S. Luke would you say that they euidentlie prooue themselues so to be surely this you must say both accordinge to your doctrine here and accordinge to the necessitie you putt your selfe into by denyinge the authority of tradition and of the churches testimonie And yett in sayinge that you shall euidently prooue your selfe to be senceles For there is noe such euidence of the thinge but anie man that is not moued with the authoritie of gods churche and tradition would esteeme it verie vncertaine and most doubtfull For vnles these wordes and that which I say of them I say of the rest of the scripture were God himselfe and spake to vs as imediatlie as he did to Moises and the rest of his prophetts they cannot be sayde to be knowne by theire owne light nor beleeued for theire owne truth Againe suppose you had certayne knoweledge of this by what meanes soeuer howe could you be certayne that he speaketh of those bookes of Moises psalmes and prophetts which we haue vnder those names This certainlie would be impossible for you to prooue seinge you reiect the authoritie of tradition and the churches iudgment by which onlie it is assuredlie prooued Furthermore you knowe that our Sauiour speakinge in his owne person required not to be beleeued but by the testimonie of his workes sayinge Nisi opera in eis fecissem 〈◊〉 nemo alius fecit peccatum non haberent Much lesse therefore doth he require that we shoulde beleeue a written booke to be his worde without other proofe then the selfe light of the booke which is not so greate as that of his owne liuelie worde◠The sayinge of S Hierome is nothinge to the purpose For he speaketh onlie of the mutuall consent and concord of the two testaments which to christians that alreadie beleeue them both to be the worde of God is no small confirmation of the veritie of the doctrine they both contayne PILK The Gospells of the Euangelists the Acts and Epistles of the Apostles the reuelation of S. Iohn prooue themselues out of themselues to be theires whose titles they beare And if we creditt the bookes of historians and Philosophers auncient and moderne diuine and humane to be theires whose names they carrie in theire foreheads what madnes were it to thinke the diuine scriptures not to be written by them who are said to be theire penmen after the defluxion of so manie ages wherein neuer anie good christian called them in question besides wicked Iesuits impure Manichees Cerdonians Marcionists and Ebionites CHAMP None of all these bookes say they were written by such and such as is manifest And thoughe they did yett were not this sufficient to prooue them theirs vnles it were certaine this were theire testimonie and that they were infallible in their testimonie As for the titles they beare there is the same difficultie For it is not otherwise knowne to be theirs then by faith and beleefe of which we seeke the grounde And if titles were sufficient proofes of the true gospells we should haue manie moe gospells then we haue as you cannot be ignorant Againe the Epistle to the Hebrues beareth not the name of anie of the Apostles and howe longe it was thought by diuerse not to be S. Paules you knowe vnles you be verie ignorant For the workes of other humane authors why doe you beleeue them to be theirs if it be not for the testimonie of all succeedinge ages brought vnto vs by tradition Giue some other sufficient grounde of your beleefe in this poynte if you can and if you cannot say you are senceles to reiect ecclesiasticall tradition in receiuinge the bookes of the Bible or else that your iudgment is foolishe and idle
taught moe thinges by worde oâ— mouth then he wrote which was my Position it nowe belongeth to you either to graunt my position to be true or to prooue by scriptures that the rest of the Apostles wrote that which he taught by worde of mouth and omitted to write For to say it only without proofe yea and such as you require of your aduersarie is to make your owne affirmation à lawe and rule of your faith Which though it appeareth well to be so to your selfe yett will it not be admitted of others And if I should here againe presse you with your owne rule non eredimus quia non â—egâ—nous you would find ei 〈…〉 your rule too strickt or your assertion here that the other Apostles committed to writinge that which S. Iohn taughte by worde and omitted to write to be false Choose whether parte you will You see therfore that my reasoninge was not loose but that your iudgment thereon was light Your reason followinge is a miserable begginge of that which is in question and which you should prooue and is more easilie and trulie denyed then affirmed And for your better instruction I wish you to marke a litle more diligentlie the wordes of the Apostle and you will as I suppose perceiue the argument to be of more force then you tooke it to be of vnles you dissembled For he giuinge the reason why he would not vse paper and inke to make knowne vnto them to whome he wrote those thinges which he had to teache them he saith not that it is for that either he himselfe or anie of the other Apostles had or woulde sett them downe in writinge but because he hoped to be with them and to speake vnto them mouth to mouth Manuall Proofe 2. And the rest I will dispose when I come Where the Apostle euidently sheweth that he reserued something more to be ordayneth by worde then he wrote PILK This is litle to the purpose for the Apostle doth not there speake of matters of faith which is our question but of such things as belonge to order and comelines as it is playne by the word in greeke which properlie signifieth orderinge of rites and matters of decencie not teachinge of doctrines and matters of faith as appeareth 〈◊〉 the same epist cap. 16. 1. concerninge the gaâ—â—â—â—inge for the Saincts as I haue geuen order to the churches of Galatia euen so doe yee The rest saith Aquinas videlicet these thinges that are not of such danger will I dispose of when I come howe you shall obserue them But lett it be graunted that he meaneth doctrines and matters of faith it is an inference without coherence that because he writte them not then therefore he did omitte them for euer or because he wrot them not therefore the rest were silent and writte them not When you consider of these consequences then you may see that it is as farr from your purpose as Gades is from Ganges CHAMP Your second answere to this testimonie is effectuallie frustrated in my reply to your answere of the precedent testimonie and therefore needeth no further confutation Your former answere admittinge it in your owne sence doth expresselie graunt traditions in matters to be obserued and practised in the churche which seeinge they concerne the vse of the Sacraments and other holy obseruations to be kept by all Christians established and ordayned by the Apostles by the expresse commaundement of our Sauiour Christ Matt. 28. 20. I would knowe of you some reason why you deny the authoritie of traditions in thinges to be beleeued and graunt them in matters to be donne and obserued will you say that they are more fallible in the one then in the other To say this onlie without some ground or reason will haue small grace or force Manuall Proofe 3. The Apostles were commanded to teache all nations to obserue all thinges which our Sauiour had commaÌ„ded Which doubtles they fulfilled but they were not commanded in anie place to write all the same neither doth it appeare by anie scripture that they did write all thinges which they taught men to beleeue and obserue This is a demonstration that they taught more then they wrote if nothinge be to beleeued but that which is contayned in holy scripture PILK That Christe charged the Apostles to teach all nations whatsoeuer he commanded which they fulfilled also but he charged them no where to write all The fathers shall answere We knowe not the dispensinge of our saluation from anie where then from them by whome the gospell came to vs which then they preached and after by the will of God deliuered vnto vs in the holy scriptures to be the foundation and piller of our saith S. Aug. saith that when the Euangelists and Apostles did write what God shewed and sayd we may not say that he writte it not for whatsoeuer he would haue vs to read either coÌ„cerninge his wordes or workes he commandeth them as his owne hands to write it If what the Apostles preached after they writte as Ireneus saith If what God commaunded them so to doe as S. August auoucheth Then it plainlie followeth that they writte as much as they preached and that not onlie by the allowance but by the commandment of our Sauiour Christ For they writte nothinge but that with which they were inspired Nowe inspiration is a commandement as Bellarmine confesseth CHAMP Stande to your grounde and doe not flinche from it you say nothinge is to be beleeued but that which is written If you will therefore that it should be beleeued that the Apostles wrot all things they taught shewe it written or acknowledge your ground to be false The scripture testifieth that the Aposties were commanded to teach all thinges necessarie to be obserued but that they were commaunded to write the same it no where appeareth If therefore they did it either they did it by Christs commaundement and then you must needes confesse something necessarie to be beleeued more then is written for it is no where written that he commaunded them to write all thinges they taught Or they did it without his commaundement And then it was not necessarie they shoulde doe it and consequentlie was it not necessarie there should be anie thinge written at all in the newe testament And thoughe they writte nothinge but that was inspired into them yea that they were inspired to write both which thinges you beleeue thoughe you finde neither of them written yett it no where appeareth that they were inspired to write all they had by inspiration You say the fathers shall answere for you but I receiue not theire answere as sufficient vnles you will stande to the fathers testimonie in all other points You promised scripture for all your positions performe therefore your promise or confesse your position of beleeuinge nothinge but that which is written to be false Notwithstandinge because the testimonie of the fathers is venerable with me I will not
it necessarie to beleeue that they wrote the wordes thereof and then it is not to the purpose to proue your positioÌ„ which is of thinges to be beleeued and not of wordes But if by the creede you vnderstande the matter of it and thinges to be beleeued then it is vntrue that the Apostles writte it not and all thinges contayned therein which thinges haue continued in our churche as the obiect of our faith not for tradition onlie as you ignorantly say but because they are recorded in the holy scripture CHAMP Shewe me then in theire writings I meane the Apostles the discention of our Sauiour into hell and the catholicke churche which Luther loued so little that he turned it the christian churche Thoughe we beleeue not onlie the parcells of the creede but the whole creede together And that the Apostles made it which is no where expressed in scripture And if I say ignorantlie that the creede as it is composed by the Apostles and therefore receiued and beleeued of all christians in al ages hath continued in the church vntill this day by tradition only shewe it me written in the scriptures and I will confesse myne ignorance and correct my wordes But seeinge you cannot performe that I tell you that you impudentlie affirme that it hath other continuance then by tradition opposinge tradition to the canonicall scripture onlie Manuall Proofe 7. They taught Baptisme administred by heretikes to be good and therefore S. Aug. speakinge thereof saith Manie thinges which are not found in the Apostles writinges nor in the latter councells yet because they are obserued by the whole churche are beleeued to be deliuered and recommended by none but by theÌ„ Againe he saith There are manie thinges which the whole church doth hold and therefore are well beleeued to be commaunded by the Apostles albeyt they be not found written PILK That Baptisme ministred by heretikes was preached by the Apostles but not written hath as much truth as the rest For whereas Cyprian hath taught that Baptisme of heretikes was not good and therefore to be reiterated S. Aug. crosseth him and prooueth the contrarie out of the ghospell and out of the wordes of the Apostle Ephe. 4. And this is so frequent with that father that it maketh me thinke you haue not read him of that argument but gleaned out of others that might serue your turne So pâ—lpably are you deceiued to thinke that S. August conceiued this to be an vnwritten tradition without ground of scripture for thus he writeth That I may not seeme to prooue it by humane arguments I will bringe foorth certayne documents out of the scripture And whereas Cyprian had taught that for proofe of this we must haue recourse vnto the fountayne of Apostolicall tradition that is the scriptures S. Aug approoueth it and saith that the Apostles deliuered that there is one God one Christe one baptisme and therefore baptisme of heretikes is firme and not to be repeated When then he saith of this as of other thinges that they are not founde in the Apostles writinges nor in latter councells c. And there be manie thinges which the whole churche doth holde and therfore are well beleeued to be commended by the Apostles albeyt they be not found written Which wordes are in his 2. booke contra Donatistas cap. 7. and not lib. 5. cap. 27. as you cited them His meaninge is they are not written in so manie wordes but the groundes of them are layd in the scriptures and thence necessarilie they may be concluded This is playne out of Aug. for hauinge vttered these wordes vrged by you when he draweth to an ende of this disputation he thus concludeth It might suffice that our reasons beinge so often repeated and diuerselie debated and handled in disputinge and the documents of holy scripture beinge added and so manie testimonies of Cyprian concurringe By this tyme I thinke the weaker sorte of men vnderstande that the baptisme of Christe cannot be violated by the peruersnes of the partie that geueth or receiueth it Loe howe be bringeth documents out of scripture to prooue that the peruersnes of heretikes peruerteth not the baptisme of Christe and therfore baptisme ministred by hereticks is good CHAMP Is it be written by the Apostles that the Baptisme of heretikes is sufficient and not to be reiterated why doe not you shewe the place and confound your aduersarie But you had rather impudeÌ„tlie affirme an vntruth theÌ„ ingeniously acknowledg a cleare veritie As thoughe if it hadd been so clearly fully taught in holy scripture as you are bound to shewe it S. Cyprian who had a much iudgmeÌ„t to discerne it as you att least and noe lesse good will to acknowledge it nor yett lesse industrie and diligence to seeke it could not he haue esped it And howsoeuer here you wilfullie wrangle out of S. Aug as though he acknowledged not the Baptisme of heretikes by tradition yett two pages after you in expresse wordes confesse that he saith neither baptisme of infants nor by heretikes are written in scripture And though you interpret him both here and there to meane that they are not founde written in so manie wordes but that the groundes notwithstandinge from whence they may be necessarilie concluded are layd in the scriptures yett is this your glosse meerelie voluntarie clearlie against S. August meaninge and common sence Or iâ— not why doe not you frame some argument which by necessary consequence may conclude out of the groundes layd in scripture abstractinge from the authoritie of the churche and tradition either of these two articles But it is more easie for you to affirme twentie positions then to prooue one Manuall catholike position 2. The Catholike churche doth and ought to beleeue those thinges which the Apostles deliuered by worde of mouth without writinge in the same degree of faith with those that are written PILK For answere vnto this lett the iudicious reader obserue that it is the vsuall doctrine of Papists to teach that all points of Christian beliefe which are necessarie for all men were publikelie preached by the Apostles to all men and recorded in the register of holy scripture But besides these there were diuers thinges committed to prelats and priests that were more perfect men which they taught them a parte accordinge to that which S. Paule saith we speake wisdome amonge them that are perfect And these be theire traditions which they would haue equallie credited with the scriptures Nowe this was the verie doctrine of the auncient heretikes Valentinians Cerintheans Marcionists c. For abusinge the scripture and aduancinge traditioÌ„s grounded on the same foundation as the fathers tell vs. And these be thinges which the protestants denie to be equall with the scriptures for they graunt that the Apostles in the beginninge of theire embassage write not the whole doctrine which they preached but deliuered parte by worde of mouth and parte by writinge howbeit they consigned the Canon of the scripture and
which two distinct natures there be two wills and two operations as S. Luke sheweth not my will but thy will be doÌ„ne For he that hath two perfect natures must needes haue theire natural properties operations but to wil worke are natural proprieties operations followinge both natures in Christ therfore he had two willes and two operations All which places are vrged by the auncient Fathers and late writers protestants and papists to confirme these seuerall points in so much that you are forced to graunt that they haue a true proofe from the holy scriptures And then I may say as S. August saith to Maximian the Arrian Si vox ista vera est quaestio illa finita est But you papists haue nimbler witts then the fathers for you are not content with truth but you must haue full proofe as thoughe that proofe which to a man is true were not full For there can be noe fuller proofe then that which doth conuince and satisfie the vnderstandinge but a true proofe doth so For what is truth but adaequatio rei intellectus And yett if there be anie difference betweene true full these articles are fullie concluded out of the scripture For beinge articles of the Apostolicke creede they are plainlie sett downe as Bellarmine confesseth out of S. Aug. And some of them questioned by the Arrians as the consubstantialitie of the sonne which in the next place you except against he saith that of these questions which then were moued clarissima extabant in scripturis testimonia quae sine dubio antepÌ„onenda sunt omnibus conciliorum testimonijs These thinges then that haue most cleare testimonies out of scriptures and to be preferred before all testimonies of councells haue a full proofe from them but such are some of these articles yett you proceede to fight against scriptures and wringe from Christians one of the strongest Bulwarkes they haue against Arrians I and the consubstantialitie of the sonne because the Arrians interpreted it of vnitie of concorde and will But if the mist of poperie had not blinded your eyes you might easily haue seen vnanswerable arguments out of the text to prooue the sonne consubstantiall to the father and so to be vnderstoode of the vnitie of substance For the Iewes require him to tell them plainely whether he be that Christ he answereth directlie he is there fore the naturall and consubstantiall sonne of God as he prooueth Matt. 22. 45. out of the Psalme 100. If then Dauid called him Lorde howe is he then his sonne Secondlie he that geueth eternall life to his sheepe so that none can take them out of his hande is of the same power and consequentlie of the same nature with God For what is it to be God but to be of the highest and greatest power then which none greater but the sonne doth soe ver 28. 29. And I geue vnto them eternall life and they shall neuer perish neither shall anie plucke them out of myne hande Thirdlie the Iewes tooke vppe stones to stone him as a blasphemer as one that made himselfe God this cause they sett downe in plaine termes verse 33. Because thou makest thy selfe God beinge man but it is no blasphemie to be of the like will desire and affection with God playne therefore it is by Christs argument that he did preache God so to be his Father as the Iewes vnderstoode he would haue himselfe the naturall sonne of God See nowe excepte you be blinder theÌ„ the Iewes how plentifullie this scripture prooueth the consubstaÌ„tialitie of the sonne and as for the place of Io. 17. it helpeth not the Arrians at all as S. Aug. sheweth to Pascentius the Arrian For that wheresoeuer the scripture speaketh of two that are one as in this place they are euer of one substance And therfore he chargeth both Maximianus theire Bishoppe and Pascentius a noble man of theire opinion to trauers the scriptures if anie where they coulde shew two sayde to be one that are not one in substance But lett this be graunted that I and the Father are one prooueth onlie vnitie of will not of substance is there not an armie of scriptures besides this to prooue the sonne of the same substance that we neede not call in the authoritie of the churche CHAMP You haue bestowed all this labour moste idlie goinge aboute to prooue to me that these articles are true and to haue true grounde in the scriptures which no catholicke euer doubted of That which you shoulde haue laboured in if you woulde haue spoken to the purpose is that these articles haue so full proofe out of scriptures onlie that an heretike might be conuinced thereby without iudgment and interpretation of the churche vppon the same places Which is euidently prooued to be false by the many and diuerse heresies which haue been maintayned against all these articles For the authors thereof hereticallie refusinge the vnderstandinge of the church vppon those places of scriptures and diuers others as you also doe in the places condemninge your heresies and followinge wilfullie theire owne iudgment therein as you in like manner doe coulde not be conuinced of theire errours but interpreted these places and all others brought against them in such sorte as they made not against them att all And as for the particuler authorities proouing diuers of these articles consulte with your Grand Maister Caluin and see what weight he putâ—eth in them for the proofe of the sayde misteries Or if you like not to turne his bookes read the litle booke written by Egidius Hunnius a professed protestant intituled Caluinus Iudaizans and you shall see whether he was conuinced in these articles by all the passages of holy scripture alleaged for that purpose Yett would I not haue you to thinke that I approoue his wicked doctrine herein which I detest as most hereticall but onlie produce him as an irreprooueable instance of my position Therefore all the longe lose and imperfect discourse which you haue made in this paragraffe wherein are manie paralogismes and impertinencies so farr as it prooueth anie thinge prooueth Caluin to haue been a wicked miscreant but prooueth nothinge against my position which denieth not these verities to haue most true ground in holy scripture according to the true sence and meaninge thereof but not in such sorte as the euidence thereof cannot be auoyded by an heretike And you your selfe that wrangle so much heere against all experience as well of the present as all precedent ages will not acknowledge the catholike positions nowe in controuersie prooued by more or at least by as plaine and expresse scripture as these are to be sufficientlie prooued So that I neede seeke no further confirmation of my position then the experience of your owne peruersitie PILK Yea to stoppe your mouth I add that S. Aug. doth euidentlie except against the authoritie of the church in his polemicall bookes against the Arrian Bishopp in two seuerall councells the one of Nice the
vnderstoode him you would neuer haue dreamed of anie Antithesis betwixt my position his doctrine Hee speakinge manifestlie of that seruice which is due onlie vnto God called of diuines Latria whereof my position is not meant And if to make your Antithesis good you will contend that there is no other religious woshippe or seruice but onlie that which is called Latria and is only due vnto God learne of S. Aug to correct your sencelesse errour Who disputing against Faustus and haueinge confessed the religious worshippe of Martyrs to preuent your errour addeth these wordes But with that worshippe which in Greeke is called Latria and in Latin cannot be expressed in one worde being a seruice due onlie to the diuinitie we neither worshippe nor teache to be worshipped but God onlie Reade the whole chapter and see his doctrine more at large and you shall finde that in S. Aug. opinion Christian religion doth not forbidde the religious worshippe of maâ—tirs who are no more to be called dead men then Abraham Isaac and Iacob of whom our Sauiour himselfe testifieth that they are liuinge Matt 22 32 PILK To pray to the angells and Saincts in heauen is lawfull and derogateth no whit at all from the mediation of Christ The martirs are nominated in their place and order but yett are not prayed vnto by the priest that offereth Sacrifice That prayer which is not made by Christ not onlie doth not abolish sinne but it selfe is turned into sinne CHAMP Thoughe I be alreadie wearie of your impertinencies yett will I not stick to refute this last which is as apparant as the rest First therefore thoughe you take the wordes of S. Aug. as nakedlie as you sett them downe yett doe they sounde noe Antithesis with my position hee onlie denyinge that Sacrifice is to be offered to martyrs which the manuall affirmeth not Secondlie S. Aug. speaketh onlie of such inuocation as the heathens vsed to theire false Gods as you your selfe cannot denie if you would but read that same chapter which is by you alleaged and therfore his doctrine cannot coÌ„tradict my position which maketh not Saincts to be Gods nor yett to be worshipped as such Furthermore in this your allegation I note the shamefull beggarie and miserie of your cause which is such that you cannott begge or borrowe of the holy Fathers the least seeminge couer for one soare without gaulinge or discoueringe another For whilst you would couer your heresie of not prayinge to Saincts with a patch borrowed of S. Aug you shameleslie discouer and lay open that other heâ—esie of yours wherein you denie the sacrifice of the churche I will sett downe S. Aug wordes that all such as are not as wilfullie blinde as your selfe may see both your vanitie in this Antithesis the confutation of your heresie against the sacrifice of the newe Testament The Gentils saith he built temples erected alters ordered priests and did sacrifice to such Gods to witt Hercules Romulus and the like But we builde not churches to our Martyrs as to Gods but memories as to men departed whose soules liue with God neither doe we erect altars there to Sacrifice thereon to the Martyrs but we Sacrifice to one God whoe is our God and the God also of the Martyrs in which sacrifice they are named in theire place and rancke as men of God who vanquished the world in confessinge him bu they are not inuocated to witt as Gods by the priest that sacrificeth for he sacrificeth to God and not to them thoughe he sacrifice in their memorie because he it the priest of God and not of them And the sacrifice is the Boddie of Christ c. Your other testimonie out of S. Aug. vppon the psalme 108. is yett more foolishlie alleaged As thoughe for soothe those prayers which are made to God by his Saincts were not made vnto him by his sonne our Sauiour Your peruersitie hath made you intollerablie ignorant if you thinke so Againe S. Aug. there speaketh nothinge of prayers made to Saincts but of prayers made by Iudas who sellinge and betrayinge Christ did not onlie not pray by him but against him which being so hence I gather that if you sawe and read S. Aug. your selfe you haue a most wicked minde wittinglie labouringe to induce youâ—lesse carefull and warie reader into errour A degree of malice almost proper to the deuill himselfe PILK The like may bee verified of the rest CHAMP If you cal this verifyinge I desire you should alway plead against me and neuer for me For hitherto haue you not verified anie apparant contrarietie betwixt my position and the fathers doctrine thoughe you bragginglie pretend to bringe direct contradiction betweene them And in this dare I stand to the iudgment of your owne patron of Canterburie vppon condition that he will read the places in the fathers cited by you I will except that of S. Cyprian brought for the 7. Antithesis which though no more true indeede then the rest yett hath it a more apparancie in wordes then the rest and so is willinglie vnderstoode by your selfe and all the aduersaries of S. Peters primacie After your Antithesis you putt downe a roll of forged positions as thoughe I had imposed them vppon you and your fellowe protestants To which I answere first in generall that if it had not pleased you to winke att and ouerlooke that which I say neither confusedlie nor obscurelie in my preface you would not if you would haue sayd the truth charge me with forgeing anie positions against you I will here sett downe myne owne wordes which shall cleare me of that imputation I thinke euen with mine aduersaries if they be not wilfullie malignant Thus therefore I say there First I jett downe the Catholike Roman beliefe in direct and plaine positions c. And last of all I putt downe the position contradictorie to the Catholike doctrine to the end that the indfferent reader may more easilie iudge whether doctrine hath better grounde in holy Scripture And further that he that will impugne this treatise may see what he hath to prooue if hee wil prooue any thinge to purpose That is if he will prooue anie thinge against the Catholike Faith which onlie I vndertake in the Manuall to prooue and not to impugne or disprooue the protestants further then the proofe of one contradictorie is the disproofe of the other Without reason therefore doe you charge me with forgeinge positions thoughe amongst these which I sett downe vnder this note in the margent Protestants positioÌ„s some were founde which they doe not mantayne which whether it be so or no we shall presentlie examine for I putt the position contradictorie to the Catholike vnder the title of protestant position for this cause as I haue sayde before that if anie protestant will denie or impugne the catholike position prooued by me he may see the direct position which he is to prooue If therefore there be anie
dishonour vnless you prooue more solide and sincere in the rest of your booke Which if you doe not I shall much marueyle if euer you be more imployed by your Metropolitane either to defend your owne or impugne the Catholicke doctrine And before I goe anie further with you I would haue you to vnderstande that when I putt downe the position contradictorie to the Catholicke I doe not distinguishe betwixt this or that sect of protestants but include them all that hold or teache against the Catholicke doctrine whether they be Lutherans Zuinglians Anabaptists or Parlamentariās all which with the rest of all the re malignāt broode I vnderstande by the name of protestants Nowe I will goe forwarde with you in this order I will first sett downe the wordes of the Manuall in sections as you haue deuided it then I will putt downe your answere in your owne wordes and lastlie I will add myne owne reply THE PREFACE TO THE READER MANVALL SECTION I. THis briefe treatise courteous reader beinge at the request of a friende speedilie compiled may serue to conuince them of manifest calumnie who no lesse vntrulie then bouldlie doe affirme the doctrine of the Catholicke Romane Churche to be either against holy scriptures or at least to haue no grounde from them And it may also geue satisfaction vnto such as more vppon the confident boldenes of them that affirme the Romane Religion to be destitute of scriptures then vppon anie other reason are drawne either to thinke this to be true or at least to doubte of the truthe of the contrarie PILK He that aduisedlie shall read your Manuall of Controuersies will easilie beleeue you were in haste when you contriued it forgettinge that wise speach of Cato reported by Hierome Sat cito si sat bene For whether it were your great celeritie which is the mother of manie slippes or whether it be the badnes of your cause that admitteth noe iust scarse probable proofe so perfunctorilie and lightlie tanquam canis à nido you haue touched these matters as if of purpose you would haue setled in the mindes of men that which you labour to ouerthrowe So that if poperie haue noe surer footinge in the sacred worde of God then this which you haue found for it then it will appeare noe calumnnie but a manifest veritie that the Roman religion is without grounde of scripture CHAMP Mr. Pilkinton thoughe your wordes be manie as emptie of substance as they are full of falsities and therefore will neither quitte labour nor cost to relate them yett will I sustaine so much paines as to sett them downe as they lye so farr as I shall goe with you I say so farr as I shall goe with you because I intend not to loose so much tyme as to looke thorowe your whole booke As for the slippes therefore you speake of if you shall make good but one quarter so manie in my whole booke notwithstandinge the the celeritie I vsed in compilinge it as I haue allreadie marked grosse and flatt falls in three pages onlie of yours after fower whole yeres studie in the worke I promise you faithfullie I will commend it to the fire to be forged a newe And thoughe Catholicke religion which you disdainsullie call poperie had no other footinge in holy Scripture then that which I haue sett downe in proofe of it yett will it be better grounded then your protestantisme euen by the iudgment of your owne freindes and myne aduersaries if they will but with one sparke of iudgment and indifferrencie parallel your proofes and myne together PILK First you confesse that the Scripture is not the totall but the partiall rule of your faith therefore that parte of your faith which is with out the compasse of this rule hath no proofe or grounde from it for the rule is that whereby euerie thinge is prooued Nowe the thinges without the compasse of this rule your selfe acknowledge to be manie yea the greatest parte of the Gospell for the least parte is come vnto vs by writinge as others teache and your selfe accorde therefore a small parte of your faith can claime this birth-right from the Scriptures but is auouched by your teachers beleeued by your hearers onlie on the creditt of tradition which euerie one might knowe if anie of your deuines woulde consigne vnto vs a catologue of your traditions A matter that in conscience they ought to doe fith your counsell chargeth to geue equall reuerence to traditions as is afforded to holy scriptures And yett none of you haue performed this taske least your aduersaries should see the pouertie of your religion how naked it is of the protection of scriptures And your selues haue a startinge hole to fly vnto vnwritten verities and traditions when you cannot deriue your doctrine from the written worde of God CHAMP I confesse the Scriptures to be a partiall rule of our faith if we speake of those thinge which are expresslie contayned in Scripture and therefore I say there must necessarilie be a more vniuersal rule of saith thē the expresse Scriptures by which rule we receiue and beleeue the Scriptures themselues to be such And this is true by the iudgment of manie most iudicious protestants Notwithstāndinge the Manuall expresslie teacheth that all articles of saith are contained in scriptures so fair as they testifie the authoritie of the churche and veritie of traditions In which sence the scriptures may trulie be sayde to be a totall rule of our faith Where you say that others teache and I accorde that the least parte of the Gospell is come to vs by writinge For my selfe I answere with as much modestie as I may that you sowlie belie me For I neuer so much as dreamed anie such thinge If you groonde this ficton vppon that which I say I here must needes be a more vniuersall rule of faith then the scriptures vnderstandinge me that moe thinges in number are taught vs by tradition alone then by the written worde which interpretation you seeme to make of my wordes I cannot trulie blame my manner of speach but either your dull or captious vnderstandinge my wordes are plaine that because we beleeue some thinges without expresse scripture as that there is a holy scripture and that it is contayned in these and these bookes which is no where expressed in holy scripture there must necessarilie be some other rule more vniuersall that is which teacheth some thinges besides that which is directlie expressed in the holy scripture You cite in the margent Hosius whom it seemeth you vnderstande in the same manner I say it seemeth for whether it be for negligence or fraude you make no reference for what purpose you cite him neither doe you putt downe his wordes for so might you haue been taken trippinge but I finde nothinge in him soundinge to this purpose Hee hath this indeede that the scripture commaundinge vs to heare our pastonrs with whome Christe promised to be alwayes vntill
are not so direct and full but your aduersaries may delude them and that none such must be expected from you much like the soolishe or at our who vsuallie propoundinge three or fower points to speake of euer forgott one of them and then charged his aduersaries that they had bewitched him So the weakenes of your arguments is imputed to the delusion of your opposites CHAMP A blinde aduersarie that doth not see what he hath to impugne I proposed in my Manuall to shewe the catholicke doctrine to haue true grounde in the holy scriptures and this Parallelist woulde haue such conuinceinge testimonies as may not be deluded by anie false interpretation we shall belike see that he will play the man egregiouslie when it shall come to his turne to prooue his owne doctrine and will bringe such testimonies for himselfe as he requireth of me In the meane tyme lett vs heare the rest of his learned discourse PILK But to your bold and rusticke assertion that noe articles of faith are so fullie prooued out of the scripture but may be deluded by false interpretation the Fathers shall answere nothinge can delude them that search the scripture CHAMP Which of the fathers say this why doe you not name them you putt in the margent Theophilact and Chrisostome but not as authors of this your senceles assertion that none canne be deluded that search the scriptures but you geue a reason thereof out of the fathers let vs heare it PILK For they the scriptures are the candle whereby the theese is espied Chrisostome saith that Manichees and all heretickes deceiue the simple if we haue the sences of our mindes exercised to discerne good and euill we may be able to escape them But howe may our sences become practised by the vse of the scriptures and often readinge CHAMP What is all this to prooue that anie testimonie of scripture may not be deluded by a false interpretatiō that is that a peeuishe or a peruerse aduersarie cannot vnderstande or interprete it otherwise then it is meant These fathers sayinges be they trulie related by you or noe which I list not nowe examine haue this manifest sence that a catholicke man conuersant in scriptures who vnderstandeth them in the sence of the churche cannot be deceiued by heretickes but espieth quicklie their theeuish driftes which is true but farr frō that which you shoulde prooue to witt that noe hereticke can so interprete the testimonie of holy scripture but that he must necessarilie remaine conuinced of his heresie by them PILK S. August auoucheth that all articles of faith are plainlie sett downe in holy scriptures and that so euidentlie that diuers of them neede noe interpretation att all as that Christ must suffer and rise againe the third day and that repentance and remission of sinnes must be preached in his name in all nations begininge at Hierusalem as it needeth noe interpreter this gospell of the kingdome shall be preached in all the worlde and then shall be the end as it needeth noe interpreter yee shall be my witnesses in Hierusalem and in all Iudea Samaria and the whole earth as it needeth noe interpretour suffer both to growe vntill the haruest and when it needeth an interpretour the Lorde himselfe did interprete it whome no man dare contradict Your owne Stapleton affirmeth the Popes Supremacie which is noe meane article of your faith to be fullie and abundantlie prooued out of the scripture CHAMP Conclude out of all these wordes be they trulie related or otherwise for it importeth not to examine them that the testimonies of scripture for anie one pointe of faith may be so conueincinge that they cannott by anie false interpretation be deluded and you shall say something to the purpose otherwise all your wordes are but idle and impertinent bablinge not worthe the readinge PILK But lett it be graunted that the scriptures may be thus deluded as you woulde haue them it neither helpeth you nor hurteth me Sith whatsoeuer you adde to bringe fulnes vnto them whether traditions or councells is equallie subiect if not more to delusion then the written worde of God CHAMP I woulde you wist that I disdaine to take anie thinge of guyfte or graunt of you that pertayneth to the defence of the catholicke truth denie therefore hardelie that which you can without blushinge and graunt me no more then that I extort from you by force of argument and after good deliberation shape me answere to these demandes followinge First is it not a cheefe article of Christiā beleefe that the sonne of God is of equall or one substance and glorie with his father and secondlie is not this article as clearlie and as often sett downe in the scripture as anie other articles of our beliefe And thirdlie did not the Arrians delude by false interpretation all the proofes of the sayde article so that they remained not conuinced by anie of them nor all of them together which of all these three propositions will you denie you will not as I suppose finde anie probable ground to denie anie of them And yett if you graunt them all as they are all most manifestlie true that is clearlie concluded which I affirme and you denie to witt that noe testimonie of holy scripture can be so direct and conuincinge but that it may be eluded by false interpretation You say be it so what doth this either helpe me or hurte you But you are verie shorte sighted or rather starke blinde if you see not this For it helpeth me in that it deliuereth me of the charge or obligation to bringe such testimonie of holy scripture in proofe of the article of our catholicke beleefe as cannot by anie tergiuersation or false interpretatiō be miscōstrued or misunderstoode by you which you would seeme to tye me vnto it hurteth you because it euidentlie sheweth that the sole scriptures are not sufficiēt to conuince anie wilfull or obstinate hereticke in anie article of faith as you affirme it to be The reason that you alleage why it shoulde not helpe me nor hurte you that all criptures may be mis-interpreted is altogether misapplyed prooueinge not that for which it is alleaged but rather disprooeuinge the proposition it selfe But this is a small ouersight in your discourse you say therefore that whatsoeuer is added to the scriptures to interprete them whether traditions or counsells is equallie if not more subiect to delusion whereunto I answere First that neither counsells nor traditions are so subiect to misinterpretatiō as the scriptures are And the reason is because they expresse more particularlie theire owne sence and meaninge then the scriptures ordinarilie doe and consequentlie leaue not so much libertie of misinterpretatiō as they doe Secōdlie I answere that whēsoeuer the testimonie of councells or traditions are drawne into doubte and difficultie as often they are heretickes seruinge themselues of them as they doe of the scriptures they are to be vnderstoode accordinge to the iudgment of the
disputer to beare the name of a doctour But S. Athanasius saith they fledd to the fathers seinge they coulde not preuaile by the scriptures Be it that S. Athan saith soe it is euident thereby that they alleaged scriptures contrarie to your assertion S. HieroÌ„ whom you drawe in by the eares saith as little to your purpose putt case you cite him truelie which I will not stande to examine For he saith no such thinge as that heretikes alleage not scriptures which you shoulde prooue but because you imagine his sayinge to make against traditions which if you had but one sparke of iudgment you would see howe vnseasonablie you impugne here I will answere it by puttinge you in minde that catholickes pretend not traditions without the testimonie of scriptures butt accordinge to the expresse testimonie thereof which you knowe and therefore is your impertinencie in alleaginge S. Hierome his wordes lesse excusable PILK What then thoughe Satan the Father and heretikes his sonnes abuse the letter of the scripture as you papists nowe doe yett with noe other weapon did Christ conquer him and them to teach vs that they onlie are the sworde of the spirit wherewith the deuill and all his adherents must be putt to flight but this you say is the sence and not the wordes onlie CHAMP Whether you or we abuse the scriptures as Satan did is in controuersie betweene vs and must necessarilie light vppon one side In the meane tyme whilst it appeare whether you or we be the scholers of Satan hence it is clearlie manifest that it is not enoughe for the proofe of anie doctrine to cite scripture for it which is my position against which you haue hitherto wilfullie wrangled And if you will stande to that ignoraunt paradox of yours that with no other weapon then the scriptures our Sauiour conquered the deuill and his children and that to teach vs that they onlie are the sworde of the spiritt where with they are to be putt to flight blott out of your Bibles the whole newe testament as you haue donne manie bookes of the ould for no worde of the newe testament was written diuers yeeres after our Sauiours Ascention into heauen and triumphe ouer the deuill and hel Woulde you haue me conclud this in forme of argument against you Here take it That scripture onlie is the sworde of the spirit which our Sauiour vsed But he vsed noe other scripture then the oulde testament ergo the ould testament oulie is the sworde of the spirit The maior is your owne the minor is euident the conclusion followeth directlie vpon the premisses Whence clearlie followeth this consequence Therefore the newe testament is not necessarie So that you see howe well you argue for the authoritie and dignitie of holy scripture But qui ambulat in tenebris nescit quo vaait PILK Madd Orestes would sweare he were out of his witts that could imagine otherwise For the the Gospell lyeth not in the wordes of the scripture but in the sence not in the rinde but in the pith not in the leaues of speeches but in the grounde of reason saith the same Father Wherein it followeth that gods worde foolishlie vnderstoode is not his worde which consisteth not in reading but in vnderstandinge and that adulteratinge the sence hurteth the truth as much as marringe the sentences of scriptures The sence then is the GarlaÌ„d we striue for which whether it be with you or vs you refer your selfe vnto the incorrupte testimonie of some holy Father that liued a thousand yeres a goe as if you meant to stand to the Fathers verdict whome your good maysters as scornefullie contemne as if they were schoole boyes when once they contradict the sence of the Roman church CHAMP I willinglie ioyne with you in this issue also that the sence of the scripture is the garlande you ought to striue for And if you dare the Fathers shall be the iudge of our plea but you dare as well eat hoat coales as stande to theire verdict PILK When we prooue out of Tertullian that liued 200. yeeres after Christ that Pope Zepherinus fauored the heresie of Montanus contrarie to your newe Roman Sence that Popes cannot erre we must not at all beleeue Tertullian in this point saith Bellarmine For he was a Montanist yea an euill spiritt so carried him that of euill being made worse and worse and most filthie he spued out most horrible blasphemies saith Barronius CHAMP What is this to the purpose of tryinge the true sence of the scriptures haue you so quicklie forgotten the thinge in question But to followe you in your extrauagances least you should thinke your obiection not to be answered Tell me I pray you in the small honestie of a minister whether you geue more creditt to Tertullian nowe a confessed heretike in a matter aduantageous to his errour then to all antiquitie testifyinge Zepherin Pope to haue been an holy Sainte and Martyr Are you so maliuouslie bent against the Pope and sea of Rome that to fix some fault vppon them you will put Saincts out of heauen make martyrs heretikes and that for the bare testimonie of a professed heretike lett the iudicious reader iudge what spiritt you are guided by PILK When we vrge S. Aug. to prooue that in the state of corruption there is no free will in man to that which is good contrarie to your sence Stapleton saith he went beyond all good measure in his dispute against Pelagius with like vsage doe they entertaine the rest when they crosse theire grosse errours CHAMP This obiection is as impertinent as the precedent For be it that the Fathers haue some harde speeches which heretikes abuse to theire owne hurte what maruell sith the holy ghost testifieth the like of the holy scriptures themselues Stapleton speaketh neuer a worde directlie of free will in that chapter nor yett of S. Aug. opinion thereof But hauinge shewed S. August to haue taught that gentills and others not iustified doe not sinne in all theire workes obiecteth to himselfe certaine places out of S Aug. where disputinge against Iulian the Pelagian he seemeth to incline to the contrarie opinion Which hauinge answered and explicated by other of his sayinges in the same places he concludeth Sed vtâ—unque in hac disputatione moaum forâ—asse excesserit Augustinus vt propter aduersarij putuiantissiman impudentiam etiam peccata esse diceret quae vere perfecte bona non essent tamen nusquan alibi id dixisse aut scripsisse legitur vbi sine aduersario non agonostice sed dogmatice scripsit Which are the wordes of StapletoÌ„ you carpe att but why if you consider them a little better you will not easilie shewe PILK For howesoeuer your councell of Trent make a semblance to decree that the scriptures must be interpreted accordinge to the sence which the churche holdeth or the vnanimous consent of the fathers approoueth yett it is plaine that as when Caesar and Bibulus were consulls together whatsoeuer
the scriptures for decidinge thereof no such thinge but he geueth diuerse rules or markes whereby he that is in doubte whether parte to followe may iudge who hath the true sence and meaninge of the scriptures And after one or two rules he addeth this Vt autem manifestius dicam But that I may speake more plainlie they to witt heretikes haue certayne men of whom they are named for the sect is named of the author but wee to witt the catholikes haue not our name of anie man And a little after answeringe to the same question more fullie he addeth What are we cutt off from the church haue we Archeheretickes are we surnamed of anie man haue we a captayne anie particular man as these haue Marcion these Manicheus a thirde Arrius and other heresies haue theire sect masters As Lutherans haue Luther Caluinists haue Caluin and the like And though we haue the name of anie one â—et is is not of the father of anie heresie but of those who are our pastours and doe gouuerne the churche We haue not Maisters vppon Earth as all heretikes haue God forbidde we haue one in heauen Thou wilte say that they pretende the same But they haue a name that accuseth them and giueth them theire names Thus farr S. Chrisostome whereby it appeareth not onlie how impertinent or fraudulent Mr. Pilkinton is in his allegations but also of what moment the auncient fathers esteemed the argument taken from the surnames of sects for the discouerie of theire heresies and false doctrines PILK Loe in these cases wherein scriptures were produced on both sides the fathers fledd for resolution vnto other scriptures where it appeareth your inferrence to be without coherence that if there be not a iudge without the scriptures God hath not prouided sufficient meanes to saue mens soules seeinge that composinge of controuersies reconcilinge of differencies clearinge of doubtes manifestation of truth is not from without to be fetched but in the testament it selfe to be learned that we may knowe scriptures and them onlie to be the supreme iudge from whence decision of doubtes in matters of faith is to be deriued CHAMP Marke iudicious reader whether this be anie other thinge then that which I sayde in this section One chieâ—e ground of the prosestants doctrine to be that the wordes of the scripture are the iudge of all controuersies For the which Mr. Pilk hotly reprehendeth me of fraude and falsehodde See his wordes a little before at this marke †in the margent and maruell at his witt iudgment and memorie Nowe to the purpose Noe one of all the testimonies alleaged by you doth say that where scriptures are produced by both partes they are sufficient to decide the controuersie Thoughe I doe not denie but for the moste part the inequallity is so greate in the catholike partie as it also falleth out in the cause betweene the protestaÌ„ts and catholikes at this day that anie man of indifferent witt iudgment and desire to find out the truth may see on whether side the scripture standeth But that they are not absolutelie sufficient where there is obstinacie on anie side I shall make your selfe to coÌ„fesse thoughe peruerse enoughe or else I shall much marueill that by the verie example vsed by S. Optatus and S. Aug and approoued here by your selfe Put therefore the case that the children of a deceased father contend aboute the inheritance euerie one of them challenginge it as appertayninge to himselfe in proofe or confirmation of his clayme alleageth the testament and will of his father which he protesteth to be cleare for him and against his competitours beinge rightlie vnderstoode persisting most stifly in his opinion and in deffence of his right clayme as he is perswaded The case beinge putt thus which is the verie same with ours in the controuersy of religion will you say in the sinceritie of your hearte that the sole will or testament of the father is a sufficient iudge to decide this difference and to bringe the parties to an accorde And that there needeth not anie other iudge or arbiter to determine vppon the true sence and meaninge of the fathers will whereby they all pretende to make theire clayme and to grounde theire title you will not I thinke say yea to this question And well I wote that were the case your owne betwixte your selfe your bretheren concerninge a temporall inheritance experience which though shee be the mistres of fooles is not for all that a foolish mistres woulde teach you that it is a meere Paradoxe to maintayne that the sole testament of your deceased father could in this case decide the controuersie amongst you his disagreeinge children So that the example brought by your selfe out of the fathers is prooued to make manifestlie against you Which will yet be much more cleare if the case be putt as it is indeede with vs that these brethren doe not only contend aboute the true sence and meaninge of theire fathers testament but also aboute the testament it selfe the one contestinge the whole writinge contayned in the booke vnder the title of his will to be his true testament another not receiuinge the whole contendeth diuers partes and parcells not to belonge therunto And another yett reiectinge more as it falleth out betweene vs and the protestants Caluin castinge out of the testament of God fiue whole bookes besides some large partes of other bookes which the catholikes belieue to appertayn to his true testament Luther reiectinge besides these diuerse other whole bookes The case therefore beinge thus howe is it possible that the sole written testament of God shoulde decide the controuersie betweene these competitors and bring them to an accorde who doe not agree so much as in what bookes or writinges the testament is contayned so farre are they from beinge at accorde of the true sence and meaninge thereof It is therefore no other thinge to say in this case that the scriptures must iudge all controuersies then to say that the controuersie it selfe must be iudge of the controuersie which is more then madnes to thinke For the controuersie beinge not onlie what the scripture saith or meaneth but also what is scripture it is all one to say that scriptures must iudge and decide all controuersies and to say the controuersies themselues must decide all controuersies Againe seeinge you Mr. Pilkinton seeme to geue so much to holy scripture as to be able and sufficient to decide all doubtes and determine all differences in matter of faith Why doe you not hearken vnto them when they send you to the churche and to the pastours and doctours thereof as to liuelie iudges hauinge the keyes of knowledge to vnderstande the scriptures But you desiringe nothinge lesse then to come to a iust and competent tryall of your cause holde your selues close to that principle by which the most detestable vile and contemptible heretike that euer was may maintaine his heresie without beinge conuinced thereof as I toulde you
more subiect to errour nowe then shee was at that tyme. Therfore that which Driedo saith is that the primatiue churche by reason of the colledge of the Apostles had power to deliuer newe doctrine of faith which the succedinge church hath not but hath infallible authoritie to teache that faith which shee receaued of the Apostles And this you might easilie haue seene to haue been Driedoes Doctrine if you had taken but anie ordinarie heede to his wordes PILK Neuertheles to passe by this to graunte that S. Augustin a Catholicke and a Bishoppe woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the authoritie of the churche moued him is euerie motiue to beleeue a rule of faith Nothinge lesse For the rule is that whereunto faith is lastlie resolued which is not into the authoritie of the churche as your best diuines teach but into the scriptures CHAMP You might well haue past by all this indeede and also that which followeth had you not rather chosen to fil your paper with your impertinencies to the publishinge of your owne small iudgement If you take the rule of â—aith so strictlie as it contayneth onlie that whereunto faith is lastlie resolued you will make onlie God reuelinge his verities to be the rule of faith and then you must exclude not onlie the churche but the scriptures also But if you take it for a true ground of beleefe then that testimonie which so moueth to faith as it ingendreth faith in vs may trulie be sayde to be a rule of faith such a motiue S. Aug saith the churche is PILK And there vppon Cameracensis speakinge of this place of S. Aug saith that it proueth not that he beleeued the gospell thoroughe the churches authoritie as by a Theologicall principle whereby the gospell might be prooued true but onlie as by a cause mouinge him to creditt it as if he shoulde say I woulde not beleeue the gospell vnles the holynes of the churche or Christes miracles did moue me In which sayinge thoughe some cause of his beleeuinge be assigned yet no former principle is touched whose creditt might be the cause why the gospell shoulde be beleeued CHAMP It appeareth well you vnderstande not what Cameracensis saith or else that you care not what you say so that you say somethinge He saith the scriptures are not prooued by the authority of the churche as by a Theologicall principle or argument ab intrinseco but as a motiue from authority or ab extrinseco which is that all men say and which I only desire to prooue by S. Augustines testimonie For if the church be a motiue to beleeue the scriptures it must necessarilie be before the scriptures and consequentlie be a more vniuersall rule cause or motiue of faith and beleefe then the scriptures PILK Bellarmine saith that S. Aug. speaketh these wordes of the authoritie of the churche as of a cause propoundinge what is to be beleeued and not of the foundation of faith But the proposition of the churche is not the rule and resolution of faith but onlie a condition requisite of beleeuinge as Valent. teacheth in 22. tom 3. de obiecto fidei CHAMP It is a most irkesome and importunate thinge to haue to doe with with an ignorant aduersarie that knoweth not what he shoulde either prooue or denie Such an one you shewe your selfe to be For if you take from the scripture which you trulie teache to be a rule of our faith the authoritie to propose manifest and testify articles of beleefe see howe you will make it a rule of faith Seeinge therefore you geue to the churche these thinges without which the scriptures are not a rule of faith why should you deny it to be also a rule of faith But the churche you say is not the foundation or resolution of faith I speake in your owne phrase thoughe improperlie that you may vnderstande and therfore is it not anie rule thereof If this argument conclude anie thinge it will also prooue the scriptures to be noe rule of faith For it is neither foundation nor resolution of faith if you vnderstande the first and chiefe foundation or last resolution as I tould you before vnles you will make it to be God himselfe But if you take foundation for that which doth grounde our faith in a certaine and sure kinde of infallible testimonie in which sence al men speake that knowe what they speake theÌ„ are both the scriptures and the churche also foundations and groundes of our faith PILK And surelie if S. Aug had meant that the authoritie of the churche had beene this rule which is your inference he had excluded all other rules For he that saith I would not beleeue excepte the authoritie of the churche moued me establisheth one cause remoueth the rest But this none of you dare accorde vnto is as farr from S. Aug. meaninge as your next wordes are from truth If therefore the authoritie of the churche be a sufficient motiue for a motiue it is which none of vs euer denyed but that it is a sufficient motiue neither canne you prooue nor yett S. August anie where auoucheth CHAMP S. Aug. wordes which are to be beleeued before your bare negation are most cleare that without the testimonie or authoritie of the churche he hadd not beleeued the Gospell and consequentlie that the churche was cause rule and motiue of his beleefe not in that degree that God is the rule or foundation of our faith for so we shoulde make S Aug. as sencelesse as Mr. Pilkinton but in the like kinde or degree that the scriptures are but yett before the scriptures because he beleeued them for the churches authoritie And therefore you see S. Aug. to say that which the Manuall saith that there is some other rule of faith before and more vniuersall then the scriptures seeinge that for it and by it the scriptures are beleeued MANVALL SECTIO 8. The second thinge to be noted is that they which beleeue nothinge but that which is prooued by scripture are euidentlie conuinced to beleeue nothinge at all For they that cannott beleeue that there is an holy scripture or what bookes be holy scripture cannott beleeue anie thinge because it is prooued by scripture for it is euident that before they beleeue anie thinge because it is prooued by scripture they must first beleeue that there is a holy scripture and what bookes are scripture But they that beleeue not anie thinge but that which is prooued by scripture cannot beleeue that there is a scripture nor what bookes are holy scripture For neither of these two canne be prooued by holy scripture Therefore they that beleeue not anie thinge but that which is prooued by scripture cannott beleeue anie thinge att all This argument is a playne demonstration and compelleth the protestants either to confesse that they haue noe faith att all or to acknowledge this their position to witt that nothinge ought or can rightlie be beleeued but that which may be prooued
christian I woulde aâ—ke you what you esteeme of your father in reformation Martin Luther whome some of his disciples as you knowe stile the seconde Elias the fifte Euangelist the second or thirde person in heauen after Christe who with a greate troope of his schollers doth not onlie open his mouth to call into question diuers of the Apostles writinges but absolutelie casteth them out of the Canon will you censure him to be noe christian if you doe you shall be a cursed childe of a more cursed father Yea what will you thinke of your selfe and all the rest of your crewe who cast out of the Canon so manie of those bookes which S. Aug. whose authoritie you cite alwayes esteemed to be canonicall scripture See whether you haue not pronounced sentence with your owne mouth against your selfe and condemned your selfe to be noe Christian If you shoulde eate noe bread till you quitt your selfe of this indictment I dare vndertake to finde you bread for sixe pence so longe as you liue Howsoeuer hereby at least it is cleare that the scriptures are not such principles of our faith as beinge not prooued to be written by the holy Ghost may be doubted of and therefore necessarilie require to be sufficientlie prooued before they can be groundes of other articles of our faith WheÌ„ you or anie for you shall solue this argument I shall esteeme you not vnworthy of a doctours cap. S. Aug. hath good reason to say that no Christian dare to open his mouth against the scriptures receiued by the catholicke churche For so shoulde he be worthyly esteemed as a publican and heathen by the testimonie of our Sauiour Christ himselfe And therfore is Luther and Caluine with theire viperous generation worthilie censured as heretikes thoughe they had no other errours but that of reiectinge with obstinacie the canonicall scriptures That which you bringe out of Clemens were it as you sett it downe is nothinge to your purpose For we knowe the scriptures to be indemonstrable by reason but yett to be prooued by authoritie as all other articles of fayth are And nowe looke ouer once more your cardes and weigh well with your selfe whether this proposition admitted for true which is one of your principles That nothinge is to be beleeued that is not prooued by scriptures whether I say the Manuall doth not directlie conuince the protestants who professe that they cannot prooue the scriptures to be scriptures to beleeue nothinge at all MANVALL SECTION 9. But nowe hauinge shewed the absurditie of theire doctrine in this point I will ioyne with them in the scriptures as they themselues doe desire obseruinge this methode First I sett downe the Catholicke Romane beleefe in direct and plaine positions then I bringe in proofe of it one two or more places of holy scriptures citinge the auncient vulgar translation and often tymes I add the testimonie of some auncieÌ„t father of the first fiue hundreth yeeres vnderstandinge such scriptures as I cite in the same sence and meaninge that I cite them for Furthermore those fewe places of scripture which seeme to sounde directlie against the catholicke faith I shewe in breefe howe they are to be vnderstoode And last of all I putt downe the position contradictorie to the Catholicke doctrine to the end that the indifferent reader be he catholicke or otherwise may more easily iudge whether doctrine hath better grounde in holy scriptures And further that he that will impugne this treatise may see what he hath to prooue if he will prooue anie thinge to purpose PILK Zebull iudged men to be shadowes of mountaines and you Christian verities nouell absurdities But as Nicomachus the painter answered a skilfull felowe that iudged the picture of Helen drawne by Zeuxes not to be beautifull take myne eyes saith he thou wilt thâ—nke her to be a goddesse So if you looke with spiritual eies you woulde easilie conceiue them to be diuine verities which you imagine to be palbable absurdities For lacke whereof you proceede to beate your aduersaries with theire owne weapons of holy scriptures and you tell them howe you will marshall your forces CHAMP Zebull if you say true imagined men to be shaddowes and you contrariwise imagine shaddowes to be men I doubt not but if I shoulde take your eies to looke vppon your worke I shoulde thinke as you doe a â—rogge to be as faire as Diana You say I proceede to beate my aduersaries with their owne weapons But the scriptures are not mine aduersaries weapons but as they steale them to impugne the truth with as theeues doe true mens weapons PILK First you will sett downe your saith in direct positions and that you haue donne as streight as a Rams horne CHAMP Marke you the crookednes and discouerit that others may see it besides your selfe PILK Secondly you will prooue it by holy scriptures which you cite to as good purpose as the deuill did against Christ. CHAMP Note you the impertinencies when they occurre and discouer them that other men may see them as well as your selfe PILK Thirdlie you will produce them in the auncient vulgar translation no maruell for that hangeth betweene the greeke and the Hebrue as Christ did betweene the two theeues in your friendes opinion whereas it hath been the Cameryne that hath vented from it manie of your errours Hence you haue marriage to be a Sacrament because your translation readeth magnum hoc SacramentuÌ„ and in greeke it is Mysterion Hence almes to be meritorious because huiusmodi sacrificijs promeritur Deus and in the greeke it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hence definitions of councels to proceede froÌ„ the holy ghost because in this corrupte false version it is read the holy spiritt shall suggest vnto you all thinges that I will say whereas it is in the originall that I haue sayde Infinite almost are the additions detractions deprauations wherewith this sweet translation of yours hath corrupted the fountaynes That Isodore Clarius woundered at the negligence of learned men that haue not purged it from these inumerable errours wherewith it swarmeth and wherein himselfe had obserued and rectified eight thousande places and yett this is the apparrell wherein you will sett before vs the holy scriptures CHAMP Take you here the counsell the painter gaue to the vnskilfull censurer of Zeuxis worke which you spake of not farr before and looke vppon the vulgar translation with S. Ambrose S. Aug. S Hierome and S. Gregories eyes with the rest of all the Latine fathers who liued a thousande yeeres before your heresie was hatched whose iudgments are of more authoritie then manie Clarius and you will finde it to be intire perfect and good Your exceptions against it with manie moe are alreadie answered by Bellarmine which answeres shall stande for good till you confute them This is all your learning to repeate olde ouerworne obiections and to conceale their answeres a greate peece of witt I wisse PILK Fowerthlie you will adde the testimonie of some
false that full proofe cannot be made of all articles of faith out of scripture In the former sence there is not anie protestant that hath taught that the scriptures expresselie contayne all articles of faith and this you papists knowe For Eckius reprooueth the Lutherans for that they will haue nothinge beleeued but which is expresse scripture or can be prooued out of scriptures So that your owne side perceiue we beleeue thinges that are not expresselie sett downe in scriptures but nothinge which hath not a iust proofe out of it CHAMP The cloude is in your owne brayne and not in my position which is neither darke not doubtfull but to you who perceiuinge it to presse and pinch woulde gladlie finde some doubtefullnes therein For if you had not been either blinde or blinde foulded you would haue seen that the position denyeth full proofe of all articles of faith out of scriptures in the same sence and meaninge that you professe to mayntaine the affirmatiue and not onlie the expresse contayninge them in so manie wordes or sillabels Manuall proofe of the Catholike position The articles which protestants beleeue to be of faith as well as Catholikes and yett are not contayned expresselie in holy scripture are manie but we will geue instance but onlie in a fewe First that there are three distinct persons and one only substance or essence in God Secondlie that the second and thirde persons are of the same substance and of equall glorie with the first Thirdelie that the thirde person proceedeth from the second and from the first Fowerthly that there are two distinct and compleat natures in our Sauiour Christ and but one onlie person Fiftlie that there are in him two willes and two operations to witt of God and man aboute all which haue been diuerse heresies as is wel known to the learned And thoughe all these articles haue most true grounde and proofe in holy scriptures yett are they not so expressely contayned therein as they may be fullie prooued by them alone One example shall serue for al to prooue the sonne of God to be consubstantial or of one substance with the father the catholikes doe alleage and trulie this testimonie I and the father are one yett because there are moe means of being one theÌ„ in substaÌ„ce as namelie to be of one wil desire affectioÌ„ of which sorte of vnitie speciallie the Arrians did expound this place alleaginge for themselues that testimonie I pray that they al may be one as thou father in me and I in thee that they also in vs may be one Which cannot be vnderstoode of vnitie in substance Therefore this testimonie without the interpretation of the churche which is the piller of truth doth not fullie prooue the father and the sonne to be one in substance The like may be sayd of the other articles here mentioned PILK What a gap you opeÌ„ to Gentilisme Iudaisme and Heresie when you deny the maine groundes of christianitie to haue a full proofe from the scriptures but require the helpe of tradition and authoritie of the churche as if the authoritie of the church woulde preuaile with them with whom the scriptures will not CHAMP Are you a doctor in diuinitie and thinke a greate gappe to be opened to Gentilisme and Iudaiâ—me by denyinge the mistery of the blessed Trinitie to be fullie and clearlie prooued out of the scriptures only would you if you had to doe with them goe aboute to prooue that mysterie either out of the newe testament to the Iewes or out of the whole Bible to the Gentiles It would well become your iudgment indeede and suteth well with the rest of your learned discourses But whatsoeuer you would doe in that case I knowe that noe man indued with one dramme of witt would thinke that kinde of proofe to haue anie force with them that receiue not the scriptures thoughe they were as cleare and expresse as you coulde desire them to be And a for the gap opened hereby to heresie Lett the worlde that seeth so manie sects of heresies spronge out of one Luther iudge whether your paradoxe of the sufficiencie of onlie scripture without respecte to the churches authoritie and iudgment hath not brought them forth and begotten them Lett the example of Legatt testifie whether your position or myne open the gap wider to heresie Finallie lett all the heresies in the worlde witnes whether the contemninge of the churches authoritie in expoundinge of holy scriptures hath not been the mother of them all Take away therefore your paradoxe of the fulnes of scriptures and put my position of the necessitie of the churches iudgment in declaringe the true sence and meaninge of the scriptures in practise and the gap to all heresie will quicklie be so fast shutt that shee will neuer more appeare in the worlde PILK But in defence of that royall and holy faith we are verie confident that all these articles expressed by you haue both a true and full proofe from them The trinitie of persons in the vnitie of one essence is plainlie taught otherwise what man or Angell durst prie into that maiestie lest he were oppressed of glorie There be three that beare witnes in heauen Father worde holy ghost and these three are one saith S. Iohn And Mathewe 28. Baptise them in the name of the Father the sonne and the holy Ghost Which places as they prooue the vnitie of the essence in trinitie of persons so likewise doe they theire comon glorie because to be and to be glorious in the God heade is all one as S. Aug. argueth The procession of the holy ghost from the father and the sonne is fullie taught Io. 15. 26. where he is termed the Spiritt of truth that proceedeth froÌ„ the father which verie worde S. Ioh. vseth of the to w-edged sworde proceedinge out of the mouth of Christe which is nothinge but the spiritt of his lippes wherwith he shall striks the wicked as Esay prophesieth cap. 11. 4. And with the breath of his lippes he shall slay the wicked And to shewe his procession as well from the sonne as from the father Christe breathed vppon his disciples and sayde Receiue the holie ghost and for that he is called the spiritt of the sonne Gal. 4. 6. And because yee are sonnes God hath sent forth the spirit of his sonne into your hearts which crieth Abba father That there be two destinct natures in Christ one onlie person Esay prophesied cap. 1. 14. Behoulde the Virgin shall conceiue and beare a sonne and shee shall call his name Immanuell And like Ierc. cap. 23. 6. In his dayes Iuda shall be saued and Israell shall will safelie and this is the name whereby they shall cal him the lorde our righteousnes which S. Iohn fulfilled Io. 1. 14. And the worde was made flesh and dwelte amonge vs and we sawe the glorie thereof as the glorie of the onlie begotten of the father full of grace and truth of
deliuered in scripture make this conclusion by lawfull argument but of this place and I shall esteeme you a Maister Logician But it is enough for you to quote a place of scripture thoughe as fitly for your purpose as Pruritanus doth manie in your behalfe PILK Proofe 3. Reuelations â—2 18. 19. I testify vnto euerie man that heareth the wordes of the prophecie of this booke if anie shall adde vnto these thinges God shall adde vnto him the plagues that are written in this booke and if anie shall take away from the wordes of the booke of this prophecie God shall take away his parte out of the booke of life and out of the holy cittie and from the thinges that are written in this booke CHAMP What if I should say with your Grand Father Luther that this booke is apocriphall and therefore your proofe of no worth But God forbidd I should be so prophane as to vse such an aunswere I say therefore that to conclude anie thinge out of this testimonie against me you must conclude not onlie your selfe but S. Paule also and all the rest of the writers of holy scripture to be subiect to this curse here mentioned seeinge they haue all added manie thinges to this booke that is they haue taught and written manie thinges to be beleeued and obserued not contayned in this booke which is the sence and force of your argument and which you are bounde to solue So blinde hath heresie made you that you see not what is with you what against you PILK Proofe 4. Gal. 1. 8. 9. Though we or an angell from heauen preach vnto you besides that we haue preached lett him be accursed 1. Cor. 4. 6. That yee might learne in vs not to be wise aboue that which is written If neither an Apostle nor Angell from heauen may preach anie thinge besides that which is written nor be wise aboue it then that which is written contayneth a full doctrine both of faith and manners CHAMP This argument is like the rest and as trulie deducted from the places quoted In the first place the Apostle faith not 〈…〉 that which is written as you fraudulentlie soist in but besides that which we haue preached That your argument therefore may conclude you must shewe out of scripture that the Apostle had not preached anie thinge more then at that tyme he had written which will bee a taske impossible for you euer to performe especially seeinge the Apostle himselfe testifieth the contrarie commaundinge his disciples To holde the traditioÌ„s which they had learned whether by worde or Epistle Againe when he saith besides that we haue preached he meaneth contrarie to that we haue preached as S. Aug expoundeth him 1200. yeeres before your heresie was hatched In the second testimonie the vulgar translation which was receiued for authenticall in S. Hieromes tymes hath not these wordes not to be wiâ—â— But to doe you a fauour I will admitte of your text and I answere that your argument is foolish For he that is wise with the churche teachinge or beleeuinge with the churche which the scriptures testifie to be the piller and ground of truth is not wise aboue that which is written but conformeablie to that which is written And thus you see your position thoughe positiue or affirmatiue to be so farr from being prooued by expresse scripture that it hath not the least ground therein Whereas the positions of the Manuall thoughe onlie negatiue haue expresse instaÌ„ces out of the holy scripture Lett therefore the indifferent and iudicious reader iudge whether of them hath greater arguments of truth And if we should followe you rule non creâ—â—imus quia â—oâ— ie imus howe woulde you perswade vs to beleeue that all truth pertayninge to â—aith and manners necessarie to saluation is fuâ—lie deliuered in holy sceipture Seeinge you cannot shewe vs it written in anie place whereby you see your selfe either driuen to disauowe your rule of beleefe or to confesse this your position not to be beleeued But peraduenture you will make your proofes stronger out of the fathers Lett vs see what you bringe out of them But marke I pray you whether they be expositions of the places of scripture cited in your fauour or sayinges vttered vppon other occasions If they be of the first sorte they will be more forcible for you but if they be of the other kinde as they are they will be of lesse moment for your purpose Well these they are PILK Proofe 5. All thinges that our lorde did are not written but these thinges which the writers thought sufficient for faith and manners that shininge both in truth of â—aith and vertuous workes we might come to the kingdome of heauen CHAMP The scriptures testifyinge the authoritie of the churche and of the pastours thereof with the obligation that euerie one hath to heare and obay them are trulie sayd by S. Cyrill to contayne those thinges which are sufficient for faith and manners For the thinges that are not directlie expressed in them are learned by the pastours of the churche authorised by the scriptures I maruell you were not afrayde of S. Cyrill seeinge he testifyeth so directlie the necessitie of good workes besides faith for the gayninge of the kingdome of heauen But you receiue the fathers no farther then they seeme to make for you such is your sinceritie PILK Proofe 6. Whatsoeuer is sought for vnto saluation all that is nowe fulfilled in the scriptures CHAMP Your ignorance or peruersitie in this place is intollerable For S. Chrisost speaketh of the institution of the newe testament whereby all thinges necessarie to saluation are fulfilled and not of the scriptures contayninge fullie all thinges necessarie to beleeued PILK Proofe 7. We adore the fulnes of scriptures lett Hermogenes shewe his opinion to be written if it be not written lett him feare the woe denounced to adders and detractours CHAMP Tertullian speaketh of the fulnes of the scripture in that one point whereupon he disputed with that heretike not in all other articles of faith as is manifest by the place it selfe which the iudicious reader may see and satisfy himselfe for here it cannot without tediousnes and ouer much prolixitie bee sett downe PILK Proofe 8. If anie shall preach either of Christ or his churche or of anie other thinge that pertayneth to beleefe or life I will not say if we but that which Paule addeth if an Angell from heauen shall shew vnto you besides that which you haue receiued in the scriptures of the lawe and the Gospell lett him be accursed That which hath a fulnes in it as Tertull. and Chris speake and contayneth in itt all thinges pertayninge to faith and manners as Cyrill and Aug. say that doth fullie prooue all articles of beleefe and life such is the scripture CHAMP S. Aug. wordes haue the sence and meaninge that S. Paules haue takinge beâ—iâ—es for against or contrarie to the scriptures as S. August explicateth himselfe
writte that formerlie they had deliuered as Ireneus and August doe teach This beinge the true state of the question if the papists meane not these former secret matters that Bellarmine mentioneth and are not written his position is de non ente For that there is nothinge or faith nowe which the Apostles did not after they preached either finde or leaue in writinge vnto the churche and these beinge deliuered at first partely by liuelie voyce partely by letters were to be embraced with like acceptance and creditt But if he meane these secret doctrines deliuered a parte and only by worde neuer by them written then we denie that the Apostles left any such thinge equallie to be credited with the holy scriptures neither the allegations inferre anie such matter CHAMP You haue here multiplyed a greate heape of vnnecessarie wordes making the thinge obscure which of it selfe is cleare enough The question is not now as you say whether the Apostles taught not more by word of mouth whether in secret or in publicke that importeth not that hauinge been disputed before and prooued against you But of what authoritie the thinges deliuered only by worde of mouth are of which question you haue the beleefe of the catholicke churche sett downe directlie in the position of the Manuall and the proofe thereof out of expresse scripture whereunto lett vs heare your answere Manuall Proofe 1. Therefore brethren stand and holde the traditions which you haue learned whether it be by worde or by our Epistle S. Basill saith I account it Apostolike to continue firmelie in vnwritten traditions and alleageth this place of S. Paule S. Chrisost cited by fulke himselfe saith this Hereof it is manifest that they the Apostles deliuered not all by Epistles but manie things without letters and the one is of as great creditt as the other Therefore we thinke the traditions of the churche to be worthy of creditt it is tradition inquire noe more PILK To your first testimonie if I shoulde answere that S. Paule meaneth not he deliuered some thinges by writinge somethings by worde only but the very same by both first preachinge it and after writinge it would trouble you to prooue the contrarie For the disiunctiue whether argueth not diuersitie of thinges deliuered but diuers wayes of deliueringe the same as in other places Rom. 14. 8. whether we liue or whether we dye wee are the lordes it followeth not dying we are one and liuinge we are another 1. Cor. 5. 11. whether I or they so we preach and therefore Paule preached one gospell the Apostles another CHAMP You doe wiselie not to stand much vppon your newe inuention least to your owne companions you might become ridiculous neither though you should stande there vppon shoulde it putt me to much trouble to prooue the contrary vnles to establishe your noueltie you woulde thinke to inuert the common and vsuall manner of speakinge and vnderstandinge of all men For the disiunctiue whether doth alwayes signifie the diuersitie of the thinge ioyned with it as is manifest euen in your examples whether we liue or dye whether I or they but so as one and the same thinge is affirmed of them both so it is in our testimonie as also in these sayinges followinge retayne the goods you haue receiued whether in money or marchandise Keepe the present I sent you whether in Iewells or in plaie With fiue thousand moe And it is a ridiculous conceipt to thinke that the Apostle commended vnto his disciple the same thinges both written and preached in which sence his sayinge shoulde be no more disiunctiue but copulatiue in this manner hold those thinges which you haue learned both by worde and Epistle Which is not to interprett the Apostle but manifestly to corrupt him Seeinge therefore you dare not stand vppon this interpretation let vs heare your auowed answere PILK But I adde that if one vnderstand these thinges of diuerse pointes of Christian religion which S. Paule deliuered vnto the Thessalonâ—aÌ„s and writte them not it will not followe that other Apostles writte them not and still your thesis is de non ente this testimonie is to no purpose sith what point of doctrine Paule deliuered by voyce we finde recorded in the scriptures CHAMP It followeth right well that the other Apostles writte not these thinge which S. Paule deliuered onlie by worde if your rule be true non credimus quia non â—egimios For it is noe where written that they wrote those thinges therefore accordinge to your doctrine not to be beleeued Againe I hauinge prooued by expresse scripture interpreted by the fathers that the Apostle taught somethinge more then he wrote and commanded it to be beleeued equally with his writinge which is the position of the Manuall it behooueth you that maintayne the contrarie to prooue it by expresse scripture or else to confesse that the catholike doctrine hath better and more firme ground in the scripture then Protestantisme You prooue brauely my thesis to be de non enâ—e and the proofe thereof to be to no purpose by your ordinarie miserable absurde and ridiculous begginge of that which is in question supposinge that for true and graunted which is expresselie denyed But to such shameful shifts is falsitie worthely driuen Lett vs see the rest of your answere if it be anie better PILK The testimonie cited out of Basill is wrongfullie fathered on that worthy-Bishoppe and contradicteth that which he writeth in other places and are acknowledged on both sides to be his and namelie his sermon de fide where he saith that it is a manifest desection from faith to bringe in anie thinge that is not written Besides in this verie chapter mentioned by you he speakes of Meletus as a rare man that liued an dyed before his tyme as appeareth by diuers of his Epistles And if we creditt Baronius he dyed after Basill For Basill dyed 378. and Meletus 381. CHAMP Here indeede you goe roundlie to worke and like yourselfe for not knowinge howe to answere the authoritie you denie the author for two weighty reasons I wisse The first is a pretence of a contradiction which is as much a contradiction as to affirme Mr. Pilkinton to be a minister and a doctor For he affirminge it to be Apostolike to continue firmelie in vnwritten traditions saith it is infidelitie to adde any thinge to the scriptures that is contrarie vnto them The second is a weake coÌ„iecture that he liued after one Meletus who notwithstandinge is sayde to die after him PILK Chrisostome is the onlie man that seemeth to fauour your assertion but trulie vnderstood he helpeth it nothinge For he speaketh not of traditions that are not written at all but of such as are not written in so manie wordes And it is vsuall with the fathers to call them vnwritten traditions which are not verbatim sett downe in the scriptures and yett haue a true ground in them as formerlie I shewed out of S. Aug. who saith that
are vppon what ground doe you assume in your minor But the holy scriptures are greater then â—he testimonie of Iohn not out of the texts of of scripture cited by you for they say no such thing They say that indeede of the workes of Christe and of his fathers testimonie which notwithstandinge were noe where then written but of the scripture they say no such thinge And therefore your argument is as fitlie founded vppon these text of scripture as those are which Pruritanu sett downe in the name of your felowes the author of which pamplett had he seene your booke might haue increased his not a little out of it As with this for example I have greater witnes then Iohn â—râ—â— ther are noe traditions or traditioÌ„s are not to be beleeued equallie with scriptures For amongst all his I knowe not whether there be one more impertinent then this But you will thinke to make some force out of the laste sentence search the scriptures c. but with as much probabilitie as out of the other For were it as you read For in them yee haue eternall life and not For in them you thinke to haue eternall life Which is the true texte yett haue you thence no other thing then that the old testament for of that onlie our Sauiour speaketh doth testifie of him Which how it either prooueth your Antithesis or improoueth my position iudge you by this consequence The old testament in which the Iewes thought to haue eternall life beareth witnes of our Sauiour Christ Ergo traditions are not of equall authoritie with scripture Doe doctors in Oxeforde vse to make such consequences if they doe I dare say it is the paine of sinne and heresie for the which they are depriued of the verie light of naturall reason and discourse PILK Proofe Whatsoeuer is confirmed by the authoritie of diuine scriptures which in the churche are called canonical is without al doubte to be beleeued But you may beleeue or not beleeue other witnesses or testimonies which men persuade you to beleeue as much as they deserue or not deserue to bee credited by the force yee finde in them CHAMP If you dare stand to this authoritie I will euidentlie prooue against you that you are to beleeue purgatory prayers for the dead the guaâ—de of Angells and diuers other thinges which you condemne in the catholikes For these thinges are euidentlie confirmed in those scriptures which the churche in S. August tyme did call canonicall as he witnesseth Further the bookes receiued by your selfe for canonicall doe confirme the authoritie of traditions as is playne out of the second Epistle to the Thessalo cited before Againe it is not onlie men but gods churche and consequentlie God himselfe by her that perswadeth vs to beleeue traditions and therefore this your argument is as foolishe as the rest PILK Proofe Abraham when he was desired to send Lazarus answered they haue Moises and the prophetts if they will not beleeue them nether will they heare the dead raysed vppe Christe bringeth him speakinge in a parable to shewe that he woulde haue more faith geuen to the scriptures then if the dead should reâ—iue Moreouer Paul and when I mention Paule I mean Christe for he knewe his minde preferreth scriptures before Angells that descend and that in great congruitie For an Angell thoughe verie greate yett are they seruants and ministers but all scriptures came vnto vs not from seruants but from God Lord of all Chrisostome in cap. 1. ad Gallatas CHAMP There is no end of your impertinencies and absurd parologismes Christ woulde haue more faith geuen to the scriptures then if the dead shoulde reuiue say you Ergo what Ergo Mr. Pilkinton knoweth not what he saith Certainlie this is the best consequence anie man can make of this testimonie as it is cited by him Againe S. Paule yea our Sauiour Christ preferre scriptures before angells that shoulde teach anie thinge against that which the Apostles had taught say you because the angells are ministers but the scriptures came to vs from God the Lord of all Ergo traditions are not to be beleeued equallie with scriptures A learned consequence I wisse and like the rest of your doctrine hauinge as much truth and connexion in it as hath this God is in heauen Ergo Mr. Pilkinton is a Roman Catholike Nowe looke backe I pray thee iudicious reader vpon the catholicke positions sett downe in the Manuall with the proofes thereof out of the scriptures and compare them with Mr. Pilkintons Antitheses and the proofes thereof and passe thy impartiall iudgment on them whether of them haue better grounde in holy scripture Thus farr I haue gone with your Parallel Mr. Pilkinton examininge the weight and truth thereof and in a fewe leaues haue founde so manie absurdities falsities and impertinencies that your whole booke seemeth to me to be no other thing then a deformed lumpe or masse of mouldinge past which maketh not anie resistance but is without all difficultie cutt in peeces pearced or thrust thoroughe euen with euerie wooden knife or other instrument For if I had no more difficultie to coppie and transcribe your wordes out of your booke into my paper that they might goe to the printe with my reply then I had to confute them you shoulde not haue been so manie dayes without your answere I goe no further with you in discussinge your doctrine because I will not bestowe good howers in such vnnecessarie and vnprofitable labour learninge of your selfe in the laste page of your booke that as to knowe the sea water to be salte it is not necessarie to drinke vppe the whole sea or to knowe an earthen statua guilded ouer not to be gold it is sufficient to scrape of one peece onlie of the guildinge So for anie man to discouer the absurditie and impertinencie of your booke it is not necessarie he shoulde goe thoroughe it whollie but it abundantlie sufficeth to haue examined one parte thereof onlie I would not lett it goe whollie without refutation least you shoulde haue interpreted my silence to haue proceeded from the difficultie there had been to confute your doctrine and least your lesse skilfull reader might thinke you had sayd something to the purpose in answere of the catholike doctrine or proofe of your owne I woulde not goe anie further in mine answer for the reason alreadie sett downe out of your owne wordes If you please to lay downe your wilfulnes to defend your errours and with some in differencie to consider the sinceritie of the catholike truthe I make no doubte but by this litle which hath been sayde in reply to your answere you will see the vanitie of your doctrine deliuered in this booke of yours But if you persiste in your obstinate will not to geue eare to the truth you may well be vanquished and ouercome as S. Hierome saith but you will neuer be perswaded Neither is my paynes herein bestowed so much out of hope to
neither baptisinge of infants nor baptisinge by heretikes are written in the scripture and yett prooueth both out of them This is the answere of that worthy diuine D. Fulke CHAMP Both you and your worthy diuine D. Fulke corrupt S. Chrisost who saith it is manifest by the testimonie of the Apostle that they deliuered not all by Epistles but manie thinges without letters marke these wordes without letters and see whether they will stand with your glosse You here confesse against your selfe that S Aug saith neither baptisme of infants nor by heretikes is written and therefore consequentlie beleeued by tradition But you say he neuerthelesse prooueth both by scriptures He sheweth indeede by scriptures that they are not contrarie to scriptures but that they are either commaunded or warranted by scriptures he shewed not but recurreth to tradition and the authoritie of the churche So that the confirmation of your glosse vppon S. Chrisostome out of S. Aug is as voluntarie as the glosse it selfe PILK This is the answere of that worthie diūine Dr. Fulke to the obiection of the Rhemists cited not by him but by them out of S. Chrisostome which I wounder howe you impute to him except you would haue your reader to conceiue that he fauoreth your opinion which he directlie impugneth in that place CHAMP I knowe that amongst other peruersities of that affected wrangler Fulke this is one which for his name hath not the more but much lesse probabilitie because he euerie where impugneth the manifest truth Nor did I impute it to him for the end you say for I desire not his fauour in the behalfe of the catholike truth beinge a peruerse enemie thereof but for this reason that the protestant reader should not suspect the place to be cited by me more fauorablie then it was in it selfe Manuall Proofe 2. O Timothie keepe the depositum that is that which is committed to thy trust not certes by writinge For litle or nothinge written of the newe testament was knowne to Timothy then See a large discourse hereuppon in Vincentius Lirinensis PILK This is nothinge to the purpose For whether that which was comitted to Timothies trust be vnderstoode his flocke as Lyra conceiueth it or those gifts which were bestowed vppon him for the edifiinge of the people as Aquinas iudgeth it is farr from your inference that vnwritten traditions are of equall creditt with the scriptures Vincentius fauoureth not your traditions att all For that which was committed to Timothie is in his opinion the talent of catholike faith whereof he was not the author but the keeper not an ordayner but a follower not a leader but one that is ledd Loe this is the catholike faith contayned in the scriptures not traditions of other doctrine beside them or without them PILK The depositum which S. Paule speaketh of is the whole christian doctrine deliuered by the Apostles to theire disciples to keepe and to deliuer to others as is manifest by the wordes followinge in the same text O Timothie saith he keepe the depositum auoydinge the prophane nouelties of voyces and oppositions of falslie called knowledge Verie litle of which doctrine beinge then written it must necessarilie be vnderstoode of tradition And this is Vincentius Lirinensis doctrine which you cannott denie though you would obscure it a litle in wordes sayinge the depositum is the catholike faith where if you meane the thinges belieued you say the same that I say if you meane the act or habitt of faith you speake against common sence For that is not the depositum comitted to Timothie by S. Paule but the vertue of faith geuen him by God neither is it formallie opposed to the prophane nouelties to be auoyded by him but the vertue or act whereby we assent vnto the articles of faith and verities proposed vnto vs. Manuall Proofe 3. But if anie man seeme to be contentious we haue no such custome nor the churche of God Where S. Paule alleageth the custome of the churche as a sufficient disproofe of any practise why not therefore for the proofe of anie PILK Our question is of doctrines of faith to be beleeued and receiued of all not of rites and ceremonies concerninge externall order of the churche whereof the Apostle treateth in that place This therefore is nothinge to the purpose nor touchinge our question att all and yett S. Paule alleageth not onlie custome but geueth a reason of it in the wordes goinge before which you seldome doe satisfy your proselites but persuade them to beleeue and hange faith vppon your credit as if it were impossible you shoulde be deceiued CHAMP Our question is as well of manners or thinges to be obserued as of faith and so is the former Catholike position of the Manuall conceiued and sett downe neither is the authoritie of traditions either more fallible or lesse necessarie in the one then in the other Or if you thinke the contrarie geue vs some sufficient reason or proofe thereof besides your owne bare assertion Which if you cannot seeinge you are constrained by the euidence of scripture to admitte the authoritie of tradition in the one you cannott without wilfull obstinacie reiect it in the other And thoughe S. Paule geueth some reasons of his doctrine in that place yett he recurreth to the custome of the churche as to the most effectuall and forcible argument against those that are obstinat and contentious as you are Manuall Proofe 4. The things thou hast heard of me by manie witnesses these comend to the faithfull men which shall be fitt to teach others also Loe no worde here of writinge but of hearinge and teachinge by word of mouth Nowe hauinge prooued by scripture it selfe euident instances that manie thinges are to be beleeued that are not directlie contayned in scripture it appeareth a senceles thinge to demande proofe of euery thinge we beleeue out of scriptures PILK Whereas Paule chargeth Timothie to commend those thinges to faithfull witnesses which he had learned of him where there is no mention of writinge but teachinge by worde I woulde gladlie demande of this Papiste if he woulde with patience endure anie of vs thus wildlie reasoninge These thinges were taught and hearde and commended to faithfull witnesses therefore not written The Bereans hearde S. Paule teach but the same things they founde in the scriptures Thus Aquinas interpreteth this place these thinges which thou hast hearde of me and of Christe I say not of one onlie but confirmed by manie witnesses vid. the Lawe and the Prophetts So thinges were not onlie taught by worde but confirmed by the doctrine of the oulde testament CHAMP This reasoninge is not wilde but firme and good especiallie accordinge to your groundes who teach that nothinge is to be beleeued that is not written For seeinge it is no where written that these thinges which S. Paule taught and comended to Timothie to teach to others were committed to writinge you cannot beleeue that they were written but by