caÌ„ change the order which he hath established in nature then he caÌ„ also bring to passe that one bodie at one time be in many places we denie the consequence and by this reason suche a case would not only chaunge the order but also woulde intangle contradiction which euen by the Confession of the Doctors is out of the omnipotencie of God. In the Article folowing they doe the same which they reproche in vs as darkening that which we clearely proponed in our last wryting by meane whereof if they will that we Answere them at large let them vnfolde it better Where the Doctors accuse vs to haue malitiously concealed this woord place in the matter of circumscription of a body measured we say it was not néedeful to vse that woord expresly there bicause there is no man so ignorant who vnderstanding that a body is circumscripte inferreth not immediatly that then he is comprehended in a certaine place Touching the Camell if they suffice not with that hathe bene already saide let him read againe S. Ieromes opinion in his firste Booke againste the Pelagians who expounding the woords of Iesus Christe saithe as foloweth in this the Lord hath not saide that which might be done but hath compared one impossibilitie with an other for as a Camel caÌ„ not enter the hole of a needle so a rich man shal not enter into the kingdome of heauen or if thou shewe me that a rich man entreth there it shall folowe also that a Camell may passe thorowe the hole of a needle doe not alleage to me Abraham and others whom we reade in the olde Testament to be riche and being suche did enter into the kingdome of heauen bicause they vsing their riches well and employing them to good woorkes did cease by that meane to be riche thus it is written in S Ierome So that as it is necessary by his opinion that for the saluation of the riche man there be a chaunge in his heart and that he forbeare to be riche to the ende to enter into the kingdome of heauen so there muste be mutation in the Camell and he to chaunge his proportion to make him passe thorowe the eie of a néedle Touching the Article folowing we say that with gods grace we can discerne the light froÌ„ darknesse dreames froÌ„ mater of truth the same being the occasion that we cannot approue either the argumentes or the conclusions of the Doctours touching one body to be in many places at one instant being most assured by good and certaine testimonies of the Scripture that all that they go about to proue proceedes not from other where than of the spirite of errour and lyes Who by this meanes labours to retayne the impietie and idolatrye which heretofore he hath established in the world to the destruction almost of all Christendome Touching the Verbe Diâ—rchestaâ— the Doctors finde them selues somewhat troubled to saue their penetracion whych they cannot any way ground vpon the proper signification of that tearme neither yet vpon any authority of the scripture as hath bene to them by the places heretofore produced To proue that faith comes partlie of our selues and not wholy of God the Doctors alledge that no man beleues nisi volens which is that no man beleues but willingly we answer that vnder correction of our Maisters that is to euyll purpose bicause suche wyll and consent are of God who workes in the faithfull the wyll and well doyng the same being very well taught by S. Augustine in one of hys Epistels where he saith that when God cals the faithfull to saluation he findes in them no good wil at al but that he makes and creates it in their heartes if he meane to finde it there That which the Doctors alledge of S. Paule that we worke with God serues no way to their purpose For the Apostle speaketh therof the Minister not meaning there other thing than that which he writes more clearely to the Corâ—â—â—â—â—â—s in these wordes we are Embassadours of Christ as if God exhorted by vs And that which they adde that none of the auncient Doctors haue taught that a body cannot bée in diuers places at one time we saye they haue As our former writinges haue proued as being alledged in the textes of S. Augustine ad Dardanum and in the .30 treatise of S. Iohn We aunswer onely to two pointes of the aduertisement of the Doctors The first is that our sermons our writings the discipline obserued in our Churches the censures wee make of the slaunders there committed the care we haue to discouer reprehende and correct them the payne we take to reforme what is there disordered the publike prayers we make in all places to that ende defende vs towardes all honest men and iustifie vs agaynst the slaunders of the Doctors The seconde is that the Doctors abuse their aduertisement in saying that Abraham doubted of the promise the same beyng all together contrarye to the opinion of the Apostle in the fourth to the Romaines where he sayth in proper tearmes he made no doubt of the promise of God by distrust but was strengthened by faith giuing glory to God. To aunswer the last obiection of the Doctors made as they say against our aunswere giuen to their former question vpon the matter of the supper how soeuer they fayne not to haue delayed the conference and disputation of the Supper and the Masse yet they are not able to persuade any of any iudgemeÌ„t that hetherunto they haue not alwaies and yet do not shift off to enter into it For what requestes so euer came from the Lady of Buyllon or at any time made by vs yea notwithstanding the desire wyl many meanes made by the Duke of Nyuernois to drawe them to it yet they haue stand alwaies vnwylling yea and as it were impossible to enter vpon these two pointes The which when wée well perceiued contayning notwithstanding our desire not to depart from them tyll wée had first conferred therein We often protested not to dispute further with them if those two articles were not first decided and resolued To which ende we proponed certaine argumentes as well of the one as the other by order and good Methode to the end they might aduise what they wold oppugne and gaynsay in the sayd argumentes But the doctors dissimuling herein in place to pursue theÌ„ propone other friuolous and vnprofitable questions drawne out of theyr schoole diuinitie And notwithstanding our iust occasion of greefe in that our arguments were omitted by the Doctors yet to cut of all further pretence or colour to defer we haue answered their last questions And now in place to followe our answers reuerse them if thei had meane they propone eftsoones other new questioÌ„s no lesse friuolous than the first the same reuealing sufficiently their fansies dissimulation with discouery to euery man that they disguise their wyl to conferre vpon the sayd pointes seing they do what they can to alter the
to pray to God in their beginning as they had desired were not taken awaye meanes for good order established the better to brydle the confusion of popular showtes and voyces as happen ordinarily in the Schooles of Sophisters and people inclyned to cauell Thys spéeche of the Lord Admirall kindled such a sense of reason in the Lorde of Neuers that induced chiefly by the spirite of God and partly by an heroycall instinct of heart laboring in desire to aspire to the direct truth of things hée became a sutor to their Maiesties that by their authoritie and suffraunce the sayde disputation might procéede and be eftsoones restored wherein as he preuayled to the full effect of his request and purpose so after he had ymparted wyth the Lorde Admirall the disposition of the King and Quéene they ioyned in deuise touching the order to be obserued in the sayd conference naming the sayde Lorde of Neuers and the Duke of Buyllon as Presidents of the place wyth certaine numbers of Gentlemen mutuall assistauntes to recorde and witnesse the manner of their procéedings prouyding lastly two Notaries of Parys for eyther side to subsigne and set downe in wryting the true discourse of eyther seuerall parties These condicions thus determined by the Lordes were also receyued of the Doctors Vigor and De sainctes for the Papistes and De spina and Sureau Ministers Assembling according to the appointment the ninth of Iuly at the Lorde of Neuers house where in hys presence and hearing of the reast of the assistants after the Ministers had prayed which the Doctors did shonne as retyring elsewhere till they had done Doctor Vigor vndertooke the first spéeche with protestation that neyther he nor his companion came thyther to enter argument with the Ministers in any néede or meaning to be instructed in pointes of religion and much lesse to impugne in any sort the counsels and specially that of Trent by which they were forbidden to dispute with Heretikes Assuring resolutely for themselues to abyde constantly in the fayth of the Church of Rome onely such was the request of the Lorde of Montpensier who to reclaime his daughter the Lady of Buyllon had procured that conference as they were the rather drawne thyther aswell to satisfie hym as also to declare their holy zeale to séeke and bring agayne to their flock such as were gone astray The Ministers for their partes protested lykewise not to be enforced to conference by any doubt they made in anye article of their confession as knowing the same to consent simplie and fully with the perfite worde of God but rather to strengthen and defende it agaynst the Sophistries of such as séeke to impugne it pretending also to kéepe and establish the sayde vertuous Ladie of Buyllon in that state and holye institution which Gods grace had happily instilled into hir These protestations thus mutually alledged the Ministers looked that the Doctors according to the meaning of the Lorde of Montpensier and desire of his daughter woulde beginne their disputation with the matter of the supper and the Masse albeit vsing the example and pollicy of such as pretending the siege and batterie of a towne beginne to raise their Trenches a farre off so they the better to prepare themselues to decyde and consult in the sayde two poyntes began to lay their foundation by the authoritie of the church vpon the which they sought to establishe the certaintie of the articles of fayth and generally of all the holye scripture And so the demaundes and obiections passing from the Doctors and aunswers returned by the Ministers De sainctes began and Despina aunswered as followeth Question Vpon what doe you establishe your religion Aunswere Vpon Gods worde Question What vnderstande or meane you by Gods worde Aunswere The wrytings of the Prophets and Apostles Question Doe ye receyue by their wrytinges all the bookes of the Byble as well of the olde as newe Testament gyuing to them all an equall authoritie Aunswere No but according to the instruction of antiquitie we vse distinction betwéene the Canonical and Apocryphall bookes calling such canonicall vpon whose doctrine both faith and all christian religion is founded and the other we name apocryphall as vpon whose authoritie we cannot establishe any article of fayth onely they are proper in respect of their notable sentences to instruct the state of lyfe and maners of christians Question Howe know you that the one are canonicall and the other apocryphall Aunswere By the spirite of God which is a spirite of discretion gyuing lyght to all such to whom it is communicated to make them capable of power to iudge discerne spirituall things and comprehende the truth when it is propounded to them by the testimonie and assuraunce which he kindles in their hearts wherein as we discerne the light and darkenesse by the facultie of the sight that is in our eye euen so being furnished with Gods spirite and guyded by the lyght which he kindles in our hartes may we easily deuyde and knowe the truth from deceyt and generally all other thinges which may contayne falshoode absurditie doubt or difference Question But some may vaunt to haue the spirite of God which haue him not lyke as we finde by the hystories that all the heretikes thought assuredly to haue the truth on their sides studying to authorize their doctrine by the inwarde reuelations which they fayned to receyue of Gods spirite by which may appeare what daunger it were to reappose or commyt the censure of a booke or doctrine to the testimonie of Gods spirite which a priuate man perswades or faynes to haue receyued in his hart Aunswere This perill is easily auoyded by the aduise of the Euangelist Iohn in his first Catholike as not to settle an indifferent beliefe to al spirites but rather to prooue and examine them diligently afore we admit them and then allow what they propownde wherein the examination which we ought to make in thys case is to consider first the ende of the doctrine that shall be pronounced purpose of any booke presented to vs For if it tende to rayse and establishe the glorie of God it is true according to the woordes of Iesus Christ in Iohn hee that searcheth Gods glorie is true and there is no iniustice in him in this viewe and examination we haue also to consider that if it consent with the proportion and analogie of fayth as Paule sayth it agrées fully with the chiefe groundes of religion Question All men say and may saye as much but for this reason it is an argument insufficient tyll I be warranted by effect and other proofes how I may rest and stay my selfe vppon it Besides this aunswere excéedes the lymites of the proposition as presupposing the scripture to be knowne to be the grounde of religion and the proposition was layde to giue the reason to assure me that the scripture was of God and that we must put a distinction betwéene the bookes of the same Aunswere
ReuelatioÌ„s of the holy spirite which are most certaine and of no lesse assurance And so lastly touching our Answeres to be out of the first matter or spéeche If they be so so also are the Demaundes Obiection The Conclusion is whether euery one ought to be beléeued saying he hath a particulare Reuelation of the holy spirite without Declaration otherwayes that there be holy Scriptures and that there is difference betwéene the same Let euery one be iudge whether the Demaundes and Aunsweres be pertinent to this difficultie or not like as also whether the one importe more credite and beléefe than the other as the one béeing a newe Doctrine shewes not any proofe more than the other of their particular inspiration Aunswere In our former Answers we haue declared howe the Reuelations supposed by particulare persons ought to be examined by suche meanes as they may be discerned whether they be of Gods spirite or not Héere Doctor Vigor intercepted his further spéeche saying that in the discourse aforesaide he vnderstoode muche matter in the mynisters Aunswers to be against the woorde of God as where it is sayde that first the Sonne must be honored afore the father which Spyna mainteined to be vndoutedly true alleaging that proposition to haue his ground and authoritie on the holy scriptures as in the gospel and first Catholike of S Iohn Whervnto Vigor Replies that in the saide places is not founde this woorde firste albeit in respecte not to incident the matters alleaged in the beginning of the conference he wil forbeare for the present to enter into Confutation reseruing that charge til the ende of al the conference Aunswere Spyna requires Doctor Vigor to coate the places of scripture which he pretendes to be contrary to the contentes of his Aunswere And to iustifie his opinion to glorifie first the Sonne afore the Father according to the testimonie of the textes afore noted he preferres this reason grounded and drawne out of the Scriptures we can not knowe the Father onlesse we haue knowne the Sonne we can not glorifie the Father onlesse we haue knowne him by which the consequence foloweth that the knowledge and glorie of the Sonne is a degree to come to the knowledge and glorie of the Father which being referred by Vigor to be more amplie debated in the conclusion of the whole conference Spina was also content Obiection Vigor Obiectes without entring further into this disputation that by the selfe same reason inferred by Spina it foloweth that we must honoure the Father afore the Sonne for by the Father we come to the knowledge of the Sonne as appeareth by the woordes of our Lord to S. Peter Caro sanguis noÌ„ reuelauit tibi sed pater meê° qui in coelis est The same aduouching manifestly that the heauenly Father reuealed to S Peter that our Lord was the Sonne of the liuing God Whereupon Vigor argues in this sorte whether the reason of Spina be vaileable by the Father we knowe the Sonne therefore muste we firste honoure the Father afore the Sonne Aunsvvere To followe the order of the knowledge which we oughte to haue of Iesus Christe and his Father propouned to vs in S Iohn we must begin by the Sonne and from the Sonne to the Father For S. Philip desiring him once to shew to him and his companions his Father He answered Philip who hath seene me hath also séene my Father the same teaching that the meane to come to the knowledge of the Father is a former knoweledge of the Sonne which may be also approued by the Authorities of other places where Iesus Christe saithe that none knoweth the Father but the Sonne and he to whome the Sonne wil reueale him And to aunsweare the Authoritie of S Mathewe alledged by Vigor Spina saithe that the place by him produced contained no mention of the knowledge of the Father nor the meane to come thereunto but only of the Reuelation which was made by the grace of God and his holy spirite to S. Peter and his other companions to know Iesus Christ and in him his Father Whereupon Vigor calles vppon the iudgemente of the Auditorie whether this be an Answere to his Obiection reseruing notwithstanding till an other conference to handle this pointe more largely if he wil mainteine it as not now to incident that which hath bene proponed whereunto Spina consentes Vigor addes further vpon an Answere made by Spina where he vsed a difference betweene the Reuelation certaine by the Lorde to a particulare man and the holy Scripture in which Aunswere he seemes to put a maruell the rather for that there is no Faithe giuen to holye Scripture but only that the Lorde is the Author thereof who can not lie euen so if a particular man be assured that a Reuelation is made to him by the Lord or that a persone be assured of the Reuelation made to an other be bound asmuch to giue faith to the Reuelation as to the scripture the which matter also he will not as he may amplie handle and deduce but falles eftsoones vpon the first Question which as yet hathe not bene resolued to the which he prayes Spina to aduaunce and prepare himselfe Aunswere The cause of Vigors maruell touching the Reuelation of the Lorde and the woorde to be thinges differing produced in one of Spinas Answeres moues in that he conceiues not the sense and meaning of the spéeche For Spina wil not put a difference touching the certaintie betweene the true Reuelations of the Lorde and the woorde whiche proceeding from him is no lesse true than the Reuelation and the Reuelation of Reciprocal Faithe with the woorde and yet it followes not for all that that the woorde and Reuelations of Goddes spirite by whiche we may be ledde to the vnderstanding of the woorde be not things differente and that the one goeth not afore the other And touching Vigors request to prepare to the pointe he Aunswereth that he can not frame or draw his Answers from other grounde than the Demaundes that are made him To this Vigor Replied that touching the sense he layeth him selfe vpon the contentes of Spinas Aunswere And where he saithe that the woorde goeth afore the Reuelation that deserues not to set a difference vppon the question propouned And touching the matter of the pointe Vigor Demaundes if a persone may be assured that he hath the Reuelation of the Lord or that a Booke be a Booke of holy scripture and when he may iudge assuredly of his inwarde inspiration And lastly how he may assertaine any of this inspiration which he hath of the Lord. Aunswere The first Article of the last demaunde is not a thing impertinent to distinguishe the scripture from the interpretation of the same seeing they are matters diuers and sundry giftes of the lord And to answer that part of the demaund how a particulare man hauing in his heart the Reuelation and inwarde witnesse of Gods spirite may knowe that it is Canonical the spirite of God is
made and contained amongst Christians in Baptisme afore there were any Apostolicall wryting and in Baptisme it was proposed to beléeue the saide Créede afore there was entrie into the wrytings or speache therof in the primitiue Churche wrytings were examined whether they were to be receiued or not and the vnderstanding of the same together if a Doctrine were true or false by this Simboll and rule of Faithe and to imitate or confront it with it as Irenaeus Tertullian and others affirme And though it should happen that a man neuer heard but the Simboll without knowing whether there were holy Scriptures or not yet he might beleeue the said Créede and be a true Christian so that he were not infected with other particulare false opinions And of the contrarie if the beleefe of the Créede depended vppon the knoweledge of the Propheticall or Apostolicall wrytings as to vnderstand and be assured of the conformitie that therein is afore wée beleue it onely wise men and such as were wel studied in writinges who woulde assure them selues of the saide conformitie should be bounde to beleue the Symboll or at the leaste assured of the truthe of the same and so there shoulde be fewe Christians Therefore the beléefe of the Créede dependes not vpon the knowledge of the Scriptures By meane whereof the Doctoures holde by tradition of the Churche gouerned by the holy sprite that the Creede is of the Apostles and that there is no doubte thereof In like sorte by the same tradition we muste geue Faithe to it as a Doctrine of the Apostles not written and yet of equall authoritie with that whiche is in their writings notwithstanding we had no knowledge of other Scriptures The Doctoures are very sory that the other parte hath so muche declined to aunswere pertinently and absolutely to these twoo pointes why they proponed onely to shewe what Faithe and authoritie men oughte to attribute to this Symbol and all other Doctrine receiued by Tradition of the Apostles without Canonical writing whiche might haue bene lefte by them by the same meane and reason that is shewed that the Symboll was geuen to the Christians by the said Apostles without that they put it in writing For ende the Doctours persuade suche as shal reade this conference not to amaze or maruel at so many perplexities declining from the true ende of the said two pointes proponed with request to remember the conferences of S. Augustine with the Donatistes and Pelagians whose fashion resembles the presente manner of the Ministers with whom they conferre laying them selues notwithstanding vpon the iudgemente of suche as shal reade the matter of this disputation Resolution of the Ministers WHo affirme according to the former propositions alwaies mētioned by them also the better to confirme the faithe of the Duches that as S. Cyprian writeth it is incertaine whether the Symbol which beares the name of the Apostles was made composed suche one by them or els drawne and gathered of their Doctrine and also why it is called Symbolum whether it be by reason that euery one of them broughte his parte and portion to it or that it is a marke or certaine signe of Christian Religion as touching whiche Regardes it is a thing indifferente for Saluation as hauing alwayes one equall weighte and authoritie whether the Apostles write it or whether it was faithfully gathered of their writings as were also the Symbols aswel of Niceus as of Athanasius of whom the Church neuer doubted that they conteined not a pure Apostolicall Doctrine as shée hathe well and euidently declared in ordeining that the saide Symboll of Nyceus shoulde be openlye published to the people when they assembled for the Communion the same being in obseruation at this day in the Churche of Rome where this Symboll is readde and sunge euery Sonday in the Temples whiche if it conteined not Apostolicall Doctrine it shoulde impugne the 59. Articles of the Councell of Laodicene by whiche it is forbidden to reade in the Churche any thing of Priuate inuention but onely the Doctrine comprehended in the Canonicall Bookes of the Olde and Newe Testament whose number is there made The Ministers doo further affirme that the reason and principall cause of the Faithe which Christians adde to this Créed is the knowledge they haue that it is the pure woord of God and he that teacheth it mainteines also that it is Gods woorde the same appearing by the testimony and writing of S. Paule who after he hath proponed to the Corinthians the Deathe Buriall and Resurrection of Iesus Christe whiche be the principall Articles of the Créede as vpon whiche also our iustification is chiefely founded Addeth this speache that he hathe geuen them that whiche he hathe receiued whiche is that Christe is deade for our sinnes according to the Scriptures and after that he was buried and is risen againe the thirde daye according to the Scriptures Christe him selfe also proposing in like sorte his Deathe and Resurrection to his twoo Disciples alleageth to them the Scriptures for their more assurance saying Oh fonde weake of hart to beleue all things that the Prophets haue pronounced was it not méete the Christ suffred these things and that he entred into his glorie then beginning at Moyses and the other Prophetes he declared to them in all the scriptures the things that were of him selfe In the same chapter appearing to them after his Resurrectiō yea afore the créede was made speaking to them of his death and resurrection for their better assuraunce he laies vnto them the scriptures saying It is so written and it was méete that Christ suffred and rise from death the third day by which wée maie inferre that for the grounde of Faithe and assurance of the Articles of the same there is no better meane than to propone the Scriptures And albeit in the tyme of the Natiuitie of the Churche the Créede was proponed to suche as were Catechised afore the Apostles or Euangelistes had sette downe any thing in writing yet it foloweth not for all that that there were not other scriptures vppon which mighte be founded euery Article of Faithe Whiche to decypher by péecemeale the Article of Creation hathe his fundation vppon the beginning of Genesis The Article of the Almightinesse of God hathe his grounde vppon the 40. of Esaie and many other places of scripture The Article of the Conception of Iesus Christe vppon the vij of Esay For the place of his Natiuitie vppon the v. of Micheas and for the Regarde of the Time vppon the xlix of Genesis and ix of Daniel The Article of his death the Crosse vpon the xxij Psalme xxxv of Esay and ix of Daniel The Article of Resurrection vppon the xvj Psalme the Article of Ascension vppon the xcviij Psalme the Article of the Iudgemente in Daniel xij the Article of his sending the holy ghost in Ioel ij the Article of the Church in Esay 2. and Micheas 4. the Article of Remission of
séeing if it should be so it might be falsified corrupted They say that in their confession there is nothing either ambiguous or darke which some of the saide Doctors haue wel shewed whē they haue dressed a forme of confession vpon the Patron of those of the refourmed Churches vsing proper termes and sentences whereunto they haue added nothing to make it diuerse but that which they haue in difference with the Ministers that they could hardly grounde vpon the scripture Obiection The Doctours say the Ministers conceale no whit their boldnesse to deny things that are manifest as the opinion of S. Cyprian that the Apostles were the Authoures yea and made and composed the Symboll referring them selues altogether to the present hearers and others by whom this writing shal be readde wherein for their better grounde of this denial they rest vpon a very small reason which is vppon the Article of descending into Hell whether it was brought in by the Apostles or added by others as from thence to call againe into doubte whether they be Authours of all the other Articles The same resembling as if it were said that it is incertaine whether S. Iohn made his Gospell bicause some men doubte whether the Historie of the adulterer be of him But leauing that aparte the Doctoures demaunde if they confesse not in their Doctrine that God of his Omnipotencie cannot bring to passe that one body be in two places two bodies in one place Thirdly that God cannot bring to passe that one body be inuisible and fourthly that a body may be in one place without holding place equal to his greatenesse Aunswere All these questions are impertinent estranged from the confession of the churches yet the doctors haue chosen it for the fundation of al the conference in which respecte the Ministers require pertinent disputation that they chuse one Article or more of the said confession vpon which they pretende to pitche the ground of the saide Confession Obiection These questions are very pertinent to impugne the Articles of the Ministers confession for there is no question of the proper woordes conteined in the same confession which is no other thing than a summe of the Faithe But the Doctours seeme to impugne the sense of the articles which they knowe by theire proper writings by whiche they make open the testimonie that touching the Article of the Omnipotencie God cannot bring to passe the things aforesaide The Doctoures also shewe that it is directely to impugne the Doctrine of Heretikes and the true meane to proue against them that they receiue not the holy Scripture when it is proued they comprehend not the true sense of it They also say that euen the Ministers themselues be the causes of suche Questions hauing desired to conferre of the Masse by which meane the Doctoures woulde make them come to it For the Article of the omnipotencie is the principall ground to proue and sustaine Gods woord and the Reall presence of the body of Iesus Christe in the Sacrament of the Aultare maruelling much of much declining considering that when there is speeche of their Confession they demaund the Masse and when the Masse is offred they require their Confession Aunswere The ministers maruell muche of so muche superfluous matter proponed by the Doctoures And where they say that albeit they impugne not the termes of the saide Confession yet they resiste the sense the ministers Aunswere that the sense can not be knowne but by the termes by which reason they wrap themselues in a contradiction when in leauing the termes they say they will confute the sense Touching the Conclusion affirming that one body at one selfe instante may be in diuers places the Ministers denie in good consequence that that can not be inferred of the omnipotencie of God. Obiection The Doctoures say that it foloweth that God can not bring to passe that at one time one body occupie two places God then is not almightie Aunswere The Ministers denie the consequence aforesaide and alleage the reason as that it appeares by the holy Scripture that God can not denie him selfe as also it is impossible that he can lie and yet it were blasphemie to inferre thereupon that he is not omnipotent For the almightinesse of God ought to be measured according to his wil and things which are conuenient to his nature as the Maister of sentences teacheth saying that God is almightie in that that his habilitie is of power and not of infirmitie which S. Ierome writing to Eustachius confirmes by this that foloweth I will say hardly albeit God can doe all things yet can he not raise or réestablishe a Virgine after hir fall S Augustine in like sorte in the fifthe Booke of the Citie of god Chap 10. vset◠these woordes Goddes power is in nothing lessened when it is saide he can not die nor be deceiued And a little after God is almightie bicause there be things which he can not doe The same Author in the .26 of the same worke Chap. 8. vseth this spéeche he that saithe if God be almightie let him bring to passe that things which are made be not made doth nor meane that it is as much as if he should say if he be omnipotent let him bring to passe that the things that are true in as muche as they are already true be false Theodoretus also in his thirde Dialogue conformablie to this saithe wée muste not without Determination say generally that all things are possible to God bicause he that saith so absolutely comprehendes things that are good and wicked matters also which be their contraries And a little after he affirmes that God can not sinne as being a thing farre from his nature And so concludes that albeit there be many things which he can not doe seeing there be many sinnes that yet for all that he forbeares not to be omnipotent Obiection The Doctors finde in the reasons aforesaid a Confession of the antecedēt which shuld seeme to be only supposed God could not bring to passe that one body at one season shoulde be in two places no more than he is able to do the things by them alleaged for they alleage them to this ende to shewe that there be somethings which God can not do which they can not applie to the present Question that one bodie can not vse two places without Declaration that it is impossible to god And touching the reasons recited of the holy Scripture that God can not lie nor denie himselfe those places vnder correction serue nothing to purpose For as they haue alleaged out of the Maister of sentences to lie and to be able to sinne is not power but impower so of the contrary if God could sinne he should be impuissant and weake neither coulde God do so for then he shoulde resiste and destroy himselfe And touching the Examples drawne out of S. Ierome and S. Augustine that God coulde not bring to passe that a corrupte Virgine
are obiected to corrupte the scripture the Doctors say the the Ministers can not deny that they chaunge not the sense and glose the matter of the Supper this is my body this is my bloude By which and suche like Authorities vnder pretext of obscure reasons euery one may pretend to corrupte the other Scriptures and alleage certaine impossibilities of nature and contradictions For the Article beginning touching the opinion of the scripture that the body c the Doctors say that in time and place they will declare their Obiections and make a more large discourse of the Sacrament of the Altare Touching the Obiection of the Doctoures that the contrary parte doe not grounde their affirmation which is that God can not bring to passe that one body be in two places vppon the expresse testimonie of the Scripture or that they can deduce it thereof the Ministers haue alleaged for all their places but that God can not lie God can not deny him selfe But the Doctoures say this consequence is nothing woorthe God can not lie God then can not bring to passe that one body be in two places which notwithstanding it had behoued the Ministers to haue made so if the places brought in had serued to the purpose like as also when it is saide that God can not lie as the Ministers haue recited to be able to lie is not power but infirmitie So that it behoued to say thus according to the true sense God is not infirme or weake as to be able to lie than God cannot bring to passe that one body be in two places which consequence woulde be ridiculare And where the Ministers haue broughte in certaine authorities of the Auncientes to proue that there is diuersitie betwéene the Creatures and the Creator and that the Creator by Nature is euery where and the Creatures are not in diuers places naturally The Doctoures receiue with reuerence the Authorities of the holy Fathers but there was no néede of their trauaile to produce the saide places for the confirmation of a thing so manifest and which was not in difficultie But the Doctors are yet to vnderstand one only place of the Scripture or one onely Testimonie of the Auncientes which sayeth that God coulde not bring to passe that one body were in diuers places The Doctoures desire the Ministers to receiue with like reuerence the Auncients specially touching the interpretation of the holy Scripture whose Exposition shall be the iudge betwéene them and the Ministers Vppon a request made to the Lorde of Neuers by the Ministers to assigne a day for Aunswere particularely to euery Article and reproche heaped before by the Doctoures in their Obiections The saide Lorde prouided that the Ministers shoulde take away with them at nighte one of the Copies of the Obiections to the ende to come readely prepared the next day by noone to Aunswere them whereunto the doctoures agréed who for their partes made like request for sufferaunce to Replie to the Ministers Aunsweres if they sawe it were so good with the which they will giue Resolution touching this Article of Gods omnipotencie to the ende to passe further and examine the Reall veritie of the bodie of Christe in the Sacramente of the Altare like as also the Ministers for their partes doe agrée to yelde a full Resolution to what so euer shall be deduced by them The morowe folowing being Wedensday the seuentens of Iulie the companie being assembled the Lorde of Neuers considering that the day afore the Doctoures had furnished all the time so that the Ministers had no oportunitie to aunswere presently thoughte there was no lesse leisure due to them to Aunswere and therefore with other necessary respectes which woulde haue bene a long and weary season he ordained from thence foorthe the conference to passe by wryting and that the Ministers shoulde bring againe the Copie that was giuen them to Aunswere and sende it vnto him signed by them and two Notaries whereof he woulde cause his secretorie to drawe oute an other copie to sende to the Doctoures reseruing with him selfe the Originall and in like case woulde sende the Ministers the copie of such as the Doctoures should send to him Wherunto the one and other parte submitted them selues and disputed afterwarde by wryting as foloweth The Aunswere of the Ministers to the Doctoures Obiections giuen vppon Tuesday the sixtienth of Julie THey denie that the Doctoures consequence is necessary which is God can not bring to passe that one body be in two places at one instant and that therfore God is not almightie bicause Gods omnipotencie ought not be measured but by the things only conformable to his will and do not derogate either his nature his wisedom his truth or the order he hath established in the world Whereunto that which the Doctoures preferre dothe directly resiste that one selfe body at one selfe instante may be in diuers places by which it should folowe that a body may be a body and not be limitted and so by consequence that he may be and may not be all together For the measures as to be long large and thicke and to be bounded and limitted within certaine endes are so essentiall to the bodie that withoute them he is no more a bodie in whiche spéeche the Ministers doe in nothing diminishe Goddes omnipotencie but of the contrarie establishe it not attributing to him any mutabilitie or chaunge in his Councell nor contradiction in his will for feare to make him lie a thing impossible to him by the Scripture And touching that which the Doctoures alleage of the ancientes that they haue not denied the almightinesse of God the Ministers haue declared héere before that they haue and in what cases it may happen yea Fertullian in his Booke which he wrote against Praxeas speaking of this matter vseth this spéeche Certainely nothing is hard to god But if withoute iudgement we vse this sentence and interprete it according to our fond fansie we may faine al things of God and say he hathe made them bicause he coulde make them wherin we must not beléeue that bicause he might and may do all things that therefore he hath made that which he hath not made but rather to enquire if he haue made it and so the conclusion folowes that the power of God is his wil and his not power likewise his not wil. It rested then to the doctors to shewe that God would make a body which in one instant should be in diuers places as to shew that he could do it And it is a maruellous matter that they impute againste the ministers to derogate the almightinesse of God as to except frō the same that which is contrary to his wil séeing they themselues confesse it and except the same things as standing betwéene them and the Doctors no other difference than that they say that God brings to passe that one body be in diuers places in one instante bicause he can doe it and the
place Touching the fourth and fifth Articles to know whether the Ministers haue imposed any vntruth vpon the Doctors they send the Readers to the actes of the former conference as also to learne in what sense and to what ende the Ministers haue alleaged the Ancients which they may more easily perceiue by the reading and diligent obseruation of theire places and sentences there inferred Touching the sixth Article wherin the Doctours had rather confesse their Canons to be false than in deferring the authoritie of the same to auowe the body of Iesus Christ to be true and being true that it is necessary that it be in one certaine place the Ministers answere that by the obseruation of S. Augustines place from whence is taken the saide Canon it is easie to iudge that the terme Oportet is muche more conuenient there than this woorde Potest To the eighth Article the Ministers answere that a substance without quantitie neither is or can be any waie a body whilest it is and remaines so and the reason is bicause they are twoo diuers predicaments that of the substance that of the quantitie vnder the which one selfe thing for one selfe respecte cannot be in any sorte comprehended Besides Christe alleageth no other reason to declare his body was not a sprite but that he had members and partes which bicause of their measures mighte be handled and touched Wherupon it foloweth that without that a substance can not be a body And touching the difference that shuld rest according to the opinion of the Doctors betwéene our soules and bodies exempt from quātitie if the same were possible we say that albeit they were substaunces different bothe in number and species yet they shuld be like touching genus and that bothe the one and other should be contained vnder the kinde of substance not corpored The ministers passe ouer the ninthe Article as a matter but of repeticion of woordes and sufficiently aunswered alreadie Touching the tenth Article we say in the first place that the consequence whereof there is Question can not otherwayes be defended by the Doctoures than by the rule that saithe of one absurditie may be inferred all things we complaine bisides of the time which the Doctoures make vs lose in the reading of so many matters already aunswered and which seeme so often repeated by them for none other ende than to fill paper and persuade the world that they do something For in the first place the Euangelist saithe not as the Doctoures pretend that Christe entred not by the shutte doores but only that he came the doores being shutte so that he speakes not there in any sort of the manner of his entrie nor how the doores were opened nor yet of any other parte of the house by the which he entred And as al the sayings of the doctors cannot be founded neither on the scripture nor any authoritie of the Auncients by them alleaged who stand rather againste than with them So for conclusion they haue no other ground of their opinion than their singulare coniectures and imaginations wyth sinister interpreting the wrytings of the Auncients to whose Faith they would constraine and assubiect the Church to the ende that hauing laid this foundation they may builde afterwardes thereupon all their absurdities and erroures which they meane to deduce And where they presupposed that when Iesus entred the doores shut when he walked vpon the waters and came out of his graue those miracles were done rather in his person than in other things Iustine wrytes the contrary that without any mutation happening in his body nor in the body of S. Peter he brought to passe by his diuine vertue that the Sea againste his nature serued him as a way As also S. Hillarie saith to the same respecte that by his power he did all things passible with whom S. Iohn Chrysostome consents as attributing all that to a power Diuine and confessing frankely that he was ignorant of the manner and fashion thereof By meane wherof the Ministers maruell much of the presumption of the Doctors to offer to determine a thing left indecided by the scripture the Auncients and touching the which according to the wise opinion of S. Hillarie bothe the sense and the woorde do faile and the truthe of the facte excéedes the capacitie of humaine reason How then dare the Doctors say so impudently that Christes body passed thorowe the doores that there was penetration of Dimensions and that two bodies were in one place séeing that of all this there is not one only sillable either in the scripture or witnessed by the Auncientes who confesse as is saide that their vnderstandinge and senses were to weake to comprehend or declare the reason of suche a Misterie Touching the birthe of Iesus Christe the ministers stand vpō the scripture whose cleare opinion is that the virgin was bigge bellied shée broughte foorthe and was deliuered shée gaue sucke and that in the deliuery aperta est vulua And yet dothe none of all this derogate or preiudice the state of hir Virginitie or integritie the same consisting in thys one pointe that shée neither knewe nor was knowne of any man. Wée say moreouer that in beléeuing this we folowe the scripture and by consequence can not erre nor be Heretikes neither likewise any other that assubiecte their sense to Gods woorde as the Auncientes by vs alleaged haue done in this In the Article folowing proponed by the Doctoures touching the manner of Christes Resurrection it containes nothing but coniectures and reproches with superfluous and weary repeticions which we haue already satisfied at the full by our former Aunsweres And what so euer folowes after in the writings of the Doctoures are but wrongs and iniuries in place of reasons and argumentes the same being the laste shifte of contencious wittes who being destitute of reason and not able to yelde to truthe defende themselues with clamoures and sinister impositions The Doctoures had some reason in their interpretation of the woorde Aphantos if there folowed autois but the Euangeliste saithe apantoin shewing clearely that the interpretation of the said place and vnderstanding of S. Ambrose in which the ministers do settle is better than the exposition of the Doctoures Touching the opening of the Heauens we Aunswer that they coulde not faile vsing the phrase of the Scripture who saithe clearely that at the Baptisme of Iesus Christe the Heauens were deuided and open when S. Stephen was stoned And as we take it for an imagination of man to applie to the aire the signification of the Heauen So we thinke it should be to diminishe the maiestie of God and Iesus Christ raised aboue all the Heauens to establishe the throne of his Maiestie so lowe as in the aire Neither is there any resemblaunce or likelihoode in the saying of the Doctoures touching the being of two bodyes in one place and the persuasion of the Ministers of the sighte of S. Stephen which stretched euen to the Heauens
our laste Obiections so for oure partes we maruell not much if they be deceiued in the nature of the almightinesse séeing they erre in the grounde as not knowing wherein it consists and why God is called almightie For they say they haue learned of the Scripture that God is omnipotent bicause he can doe all that he will and nothing can resist him the same being as a signe of the power of God but vnder correction it is not the matter wherein it consistes and therefore to knowe it it must be considered according to his Obiect that is according to things possible to doe so that there is nothing possible which God can not do All thing without exception is estéemed possible where is not founde contradiction to be and not to be and that comes not by the fault of the power of God who can doe al things but by the repugnācie of the thing that can not be which the Ministers in the beginning had perhappes put in some Aunswer were it not that bicause vpō certain interrogatories they Answered that Gods almightinesse must be measured according to his will and thinking to saue this error they are slipped into diuers others which they can not shift of without falling into an infinite absurditie as not to confesse to haue failed Wherin their offence is more in that they goe about to limite bound the power of God not suffer it to stretch to al things generally that the sprite of mā may conceiue imagine séeing of the contrary it is not to be douted that Gods power is great aboue the conceit and imaginations of mannes spirite yea it is infinite and incomprehensible as S Paule saith God can doe more than we eisher demaunde or vnderstande And where the ministers say that God can doe onely all things which are not contrary to his iustice his wisdome his bountie and truth and therfore he can not doe all things generally it hath bene already told them that to be able to do things contrary to the iustice bountie wisdome and truthe of God was not power but impower And by that also as S Augustine saithe in a place alleaged by vs in our former Obiection that he can not doe suche things it is an argument of his almightinesse and no restraint of the same And where the ministers inferre that bicause God cannot doe such things by consequence he cānot do any thing which is contrary to his wisdome and eternall will which is and shal be for euer to doe all things well and wisely with number poise and measure yea without that there be or shall be any iniquitie and contradiction in all that he dothe it may here be séene how the ministers disguise that which is in cōtrouersie concealing the matter of their former writing touching the order established in the worlde againste the which they said God could do nothing with other matters of blasphemie which as we did argue so they durste not reuiue them in their last answere as in respecte their conscience vrged them and kindled a knowledge that as such affirmatiōs could not be sustained so they could not auoide them but in denying to haue written them and so accuse vs of slaūder as to haue altered chaunged their matters by additions or retractions for our purgation wherin we send them to our last obiection where as the words are produced in the first Article so the said blasphemies are drawn out of the propre words of the first article of the ministers And we refer our selues to the collation of our said last writing with that of the ministers only it is as also most certainely it will be found the we haue faithfully recited the propre woordes of the ministers which as they wold not aduow in themselues so it wil be knowne at the laste that til now they haue mainteined propositions of blasphemie that therin wée haue done them no wrong as pardoning their persons and being content to speake our simple aduise of their Doctrine The Ministers to shewe their iuste cause to accuse vs of slaunder say in the first place that wée haue cut of their proposition whiche was suche that the almightinesse of God ought not to be measured but by the things which onely are conformable to his will and doo not derogate his wisedome his truthe his nature nor the order whiche he hath established in the worlde and that of this the laste parte onely is taken by the Doctors who for their purgation say that they haue alwaies considered what was put in cōtrouersi which is if God can bring to passe that one body be in twoo places And to examine the truth of this Question afore they committed it to writing they laid the whole with euery part of the Ministers proposition and haue thus argued that God can doo al things which are conformable to his wil the same neing knowne whē there is nothing that derogates either his wisedome his truthe his nature or the order whiche he hath established in the worlde as the Ministers holde one bodye to be in twoo places derogates not the wisedome of God séeing for all that God cannot be but wise it dothe not derogate his truth for he hath neuer said that he coulde not doo it neither yet his nature for if he shoulde he shoulde forbeare to be God th if there be any repugnancy it should be in this that it would derogate the order which God hath established in the world the same being the cause that they rest not but vpon the last Article And wée thinke sure the Ministers woulde not say that to be able to make a body to be in diuerse places were a thing repugnant either to the wisedome truthe or nature of God sauing in that they iudge it repugnes the order which God hath established in the worlde Besides the Ministers hauing laid the said proposition as a Rule to knowe what God can doo when they woulde accomodate this Rule to the matter in contention they oughte afterwardes to say so to what things repugne that whiche the Doctours preferre that one Body in one instant maye be in diuerse places but they saye and write onely what thing that is to saie Order c. whiche Relatiue cannot accorde but with his former Antecedent by which may clearly appeare that the Ministers incurre the crime of slaunder which falsely they obiecte to vs. And where they say wée take not the terme of the Order established in the worlde in the sense they meane it wée aunswere that wée haue construed the terme according to the vnderstanding whiche the Ministers haue giuen of it according to our iudgemente of their speaches and phrases thereof For when was question to bring in any myracle done by Iesus Christe contrary or aboue the nature of things created the Ministers had alwayes their recourse to the common order of nature as when speache was vttered of the doores shutte the comming foorth of the Graue the Virgyns wombe and of