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A27412
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A disswasive from error much increased a perswasive to order much decayed / by Joseph Bentham.
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Bentham, Joseph, 1594?-1671.
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1669
(1669)
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Wing B1909; ESTC R25276
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73,061
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94
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preaching against the true Christ preaching against the Scribes and Pharisees and they affirming him to be a deceiver And I dare maintain that what they preach contrary to what we preach in publick if they do to be contrary to sound doctrine Object You say you do nothing but what is good you set open the great doors and little doors not caring who sees who heareth you Answ 1. Admit that what is preached is good yet it is not well done good things should be well done according to rule and order 2. The Tree is known by the fruits and by your such Meetings we see the publick Ordinances slighted neglected contemned 3. I cannot accuse what is delivered in your Meetings but if it is contrary to what we preach in publick it is not good doctrine And let me tell you that John of Leyden infused his dangerous opinions in private Meetings and how our Mr. Thrask in publick preached sound truths but in his private Meetings he did indoctrinate his followers with his pernicious principles Object They who preach to us in private Meetings are pious men the other are profane vicious scandalous Answ 1. If this be true that some of us are such we are sorry for it yea such we will not justifie and when was it otherwise nor is all done by the other justifiable 2. There are more sins than swearing and drunkenness who can forget the swarms of sins in our late Tragedies and who were actors of many of them in it 3. For the present Are not despising of Authority disobedience Cobler of Gloc. to wholsom Laws sins from which are these men free 4. Blessed be God although we all are proclaimed to be profane and naught yet there are very many as free from idleness drunkenness swearing and such like vices and as painful pious charitable and inoffensive as the strictest in your commanded company 5. But to be plain with you All professions whilst kept under it is their interest to be orderly but when these men of late had their liberty we are able to prove the profane excesses of some of them even to publick scandal by Epicurism intemperance and uncleanness to say no more For my part I cannot think but that the respect such who are in Authority bear to themselves their care to have their Laws and Religion upholden their obedient Clergy not vilified and people kept from Atheism and rebellion will awaken them in time strictly and by severity to do that which their clemency will not do You cry out much against Popery yet your doings endeavour to bring it in and set it up it is a Jesuitical plot to sow division amongst us to make our Religion odious and that they may fish in troubled waters From a good Author I will tell you a story which is this Before our troubles one Meridith an ancient Dr. Nicols and learned Jesuit told one reconciled to the Church of Rome that in England they had been long and industrious about the work of conversion but it went on slowly and so would do until they took a wiser course Two things there were that must be done before they should bring their business to a full effect they must first find a way to remove the Bishops and Ministers in whose rooms they must bring it so about that all should have liberty to preach Then secondly they must get down the Common-prayer-Book and suffer every man to use what prayer he list And we cannot but remember how far they effected this in our sad troubles Besides if you expect such priviledge why may not they expect the same They being Christians they being subjects they and some of you being Recusants why not they their Mass as well as you your Meetings Object Why Those you hear in your Meetings have rare gifts they are pious and precious men Answ I envy no mans gifts but bless God for other mens parts and piety 2. Comparisons are odious otherwise we could say as St. Paul of the false Apostles in his time Are they thus and so so are we 3. The forbidden fruit without doubt was excellent yet it had been good for our first Parents to have contented themselves with their allowed Trees and fruits Many mens Wives and Diet come short of other mens yet it is fit their own should content them 4. Blessed be God your allowance is large you may hear every week three Sermons in an approved way and none of them to be contemned And as for Popish Priests do you not think theâ— will say for their Priests and Jesuits the same that you do for your Preachers you say yours are rarely gifted men great Scholars pious painful and what you will more They will not conform to the Book of Common-prayer nor observe the Orders appointed by the Church of England they will not assent and consent They can and will say the same of theirs If you say yours will take no Livings they can say the same and add not Wives neither If you say that yours live by providence going about to do good they can say theirs have no setled abiding but are sometimes here and there to promote and spread the Catholick cause and are maintained by the peoples bounty We acknowledge that we and Papists are Christians agreeing in many things for we and they acknowledge unity in Trinity but we with them acknowledge no Queen of heaven to pray unto We and they acknowledge the Scriptures to be the Word of God but we with them make not the Apocrypha Canonical We with them make the Word of God the ground of faith but we with them make not unwritten traditions of equal authority We and they agree in admitting doctrinal traditions agreeing with Scripture or thence deduced yea ritual for order and decency left to the disposition of the Church although but of positive and humane right they not being childish nor accounted parts of God's Worship nor with opinion of merit nor burdensom for multitude But we with them believe not traditions obtruded as Articles of Religion grounds of faith and parts of God's Worship they not being deduced from Scripture by inference nor expresly commanded such we reject We and they receive and believe the three Creeds but we with them receive not the Creed of Trent We and they believe the true God is to be worshipped in Spirit and truth we with them believe not that he is to be worshipped by Images We and they believe that we are to pray with fervency and sincerity but we with them pray not in an unknown tongue We and they pray to God but we with them do not pray to Saints and Angels We and they acknowledge Christ to be our Mediator of redemption and intercession but we with them do not at all rely upon the intercession and merits of Saints and Angels We and they do honour Saints departed but we with them do not worship them We and they do urge to good works we as necessary
deprive our selves of that joy comfort and good we might receive by Christian unity and order Since therefore God is the Author of good agreement and order since we are all of the same family and houshold of God since we are fellow members of the same body fellow stones of the same building and fellow-soldiers of the same band since we have the same Father God the same Mother the Church the same enemies weapons cause and expect the same crown since in Christs Kingdom lambs Isa 11. 6. and wolves agree Labour we for peace and to uphold in this house in this Kingdom fold and family unity and order In contentions therefore deal like neighbours in State business like subjects in other mens sins like Christians in all humane things as just men and in all we do be careful to observe order 1. That all things may be done decently and in order lay aside pride passion prejudice and pragmatical dealing in things out of our Calling for when meer Mechanicks from the anvile thimble needle yea from tinkering and tapstering presume to sit in Moses chair to be dictators and reformers It is sure against order and a cause of much disorder 2. That all things may be done decently and in order by no means have a prejudicate opinion against the Governours of the Church I mean the Bishops they having been therein in and since the Apostles times St. James at Jerusalem St. Peter at Antioch St. Mark at Alexandria c. And after them such Worthies of the Church St. Augustine Bishop of Hippo Chrysostom of Constantinople Ambrose of Millain Cyprian of Carthage c. Fulgentius Palladius and Finan Bishops in Scotland before Antichrist three Luther pag. 41. British Bishops at the famous Councel of Nice Aristobuluâ— one of the seventy Disciples as we are informed a Bishop in Britain And of the nine and twenty Clergy men Mantyrs in Queen Maries dayes five were Bishops and one Arch-Deacon Such hath been the Government of the Church in and since the Apostles time and if some have been faulty personal faults may not annihilate needful functions 3. That all things may be done decently and in order let us better esteem of things appointed by our Church for unity edification and order and not causelesly run into factions and fraternities scandalous to the Gospel dangerous to our selves Obj. 1 Some I know will say to obey and observe order in things commanded by authority is against conscience Answ That Magistrates have power to command is cleer Rom. 13. 1. Surely then they may make Laws they being called powers surely such receive force from God they being ordained of God surely such bind since we must be subject v. 5. and surely violaters sin since resisters receive damnation v. 2. Obj. 2 But I am perswaded that such and such particulars are unlawful 1. If the thing commanded is simply unlawful as to worship Answ the golden image if the thing it self is lawful yet obedience to that lawful thing to some puts upon a necessity of sinning as when single life lawful to some is imposed to such who have not the gift of continency If indifferents are commanded as necessary as meritorious and as the substantials of Religion such commands lose their force yet not so but all commands of Magistrates wanting authority of the Word ought not to be disobeyed with scandal and contempt Even Heathen persecuting Kings had such authority from God that Christians were to pray for them and obey 1 Tim. â— 1 2. them commanding things lawful actively commanding things unlawful passively 2. You say you are perswaded they are unlawful this makes them not to be so If there is no rule from the word for their unlawfulness there is no place for your disobedience but the command to obey is sufficient warrant to obey It is a great mistake to swallow Camels sins and to scruple at matters indifferent not once pretended to be against the word they being also commanded by authority and that such we are to obey upon no better grounds than such they are contrary to our fancy humour opinion or Christian liberty as pretended for Christian liberty consists in freedom from sin from the curse of the Law from the wrath of God the yoak of Mosaical rites and an obligation There is a glorious liberty which is celestial in heaven Rom. 8. 21. On earth there is a liberty temporal 1 Cor. 10. 29. This liberty is best when â—ffence is neither given nor taken There is a liberty spiritual Joh. 8. 36. which consists in deliverance from evil from sin from the punishment of the Law Rom. 8. 1. Col. 3. 13. from the strict observation of the Law which saith do and live freedom in respect of God to have free access to serve him in the Name of Christ Rom. 5. 2. To serve him without fear in righteousness and holiness Luk. 1. 74. and freedom in respect of the creatures to use or not to use our dominion lost by Adam it being restored by Christ so that all are ours 1 Cor. 3. 22. all being pure to the pure Rom. 14. 14. There is also a carnal liberty to swear to lye to slander to serve God when and how men list to shun Gods Ordinances and publick Meetings and this is a liberty stood for by some whereas this is no Christian liberty but a dissolute licentiousness for notwithstanding our liberty we must pay debts and perform duties to whom debts or duties belong Scripture mentions a good a cleer a pure a purged a weak an evil and a feared conscience If the conscience for which men plead liberty loves divisions which God hates it is but a bad conscience of conscience to the things indifferent as substantials As for liberty of conscience so much desired of some who know not what they desire I could shew how John Becold Nicholas Stock Mancer and others pleaded for and obtained the desired liberty but having power in their hands they would not grant the same to others And sure we may remember how some would not grant it to others who are now most desirous of it themselves But who I pray should have liberty of conscience Sure I am it is not agreed upon by those who have written earnestly for the same Some would have it granted to all conscientious men only but who are they some not to such who sin against the light of nature and reason and here will be some doubt And some would have it granted to all men in all Nations whereas if to all what confusion if to some only what dissension Concerning things indifferent as such things are which I may lawfully do or use as I may forbear from or drink wine ale beer or water I may cloath my self with woollen or linnen I may use the gestures of sitting standing kneeling so long as I am at liberty for a Christian is sometimes to moderate his liberty in the use of things indifferent of which there