the tares were cast into the good fielde Shall not a white head be taken so to be vnlesse the precise beginning of white haires be known A chinke in a wall is spied and mended but the beginning vsually vnknown When the Scribes and Pharises had corrupted religion what bookes doe we reade to be written against them How able were Ioseph Simeon Marie Anna c. to confute them Falshood is falshood though no man write against it And therefore let the doctrine of poperie he sifted whether it be sound or no and the beginning let goe of which yet you see what I haue said M. Sonne you haue said much and still I wish that one of vs would heare another more then we do I see I see it is profitable god hath commaunded meanes and liketh meanes S. Mother many a good man and woman that nowe liueth in ignorance woulde heare and reade but that they are so terrified in holes and corners by false charmers vnder the paine of excommunication not to doe it nor to conferre with any Yea they are often snared with an oath not to doe it and all to keepe them in darknesse because the hooded hauke is quietest and Sampson when his eies be out may be mocked and vsed at will but the Lord is able to touch his peoples hearts to thinke of their craft and cast from them such deceitfull workes which I beseech him to doe euen with speede For the impietie and boldnesse of these wicked charmers is great and worthily reprooued by S. Hierome who saith of some in his time that they did tantam sibi assumere authoritateÌ„ in Esai l. 9. c. 3. vt siue dextra docerent siue sinistra id est siue bona siue malanolint discipulos ratione discutere sed se praecessores sequi some did take such autority vpon them that whether they taught right or wrong good or badde they would not haue their auditours to examine it but to followe them M. Yea but it is a great matter sonne in our eyes that the Church of Rome hath alwaies beene a visible state maintaining that doctrine visible I say and still appearing and knowne whereas your church before Luthers time either was not at all or was hidde as some say and your doctrine not receiued by publike authoritie S. But good mother you know trueth is trueth although the whole world were set against it And therefore still I wish your eye bent not vpon the fauour of the world for that is commonly against the good and for the badde but vpon the face of almightie God his good pleasure and the rule thereof his worde And then for answere to this obiected which seemeth so strong a bulwarke in the iudgement of many Papists â—â—e â— church 〈◊〉 nor alwaies â—â—sible first I say that the true church is not alwaies visible in the worlde as they take visible that is glorious in credit and fauour supported by authority of worldly powers so that all people may know whether to resort vnto it For the Church is either Catholike 1. vniuersall or particular The Catholike or vniuersall church cannot be seene and therfore we beleeue it as an article of our faith Credo sanctam ecclesiam Catholicam Symb. Apost I beleeue that there is an holy Catholike Church not as some would haue it I giue credit to the church and beleeue what soeuer it teacheth for then it should be Credo Ecclesiae not Credo Ecclesiam Sentent l. 3. distinct 2â— There is great difference saith P. Lumbard following S. Austen betwixt Credere Deum Credere Deo and Creaere in Deum the first is to beleeue that there is a God the second to giue credance vnto God and to beleeue all that tâ—u which he speaketh the third to rely vpon god and to put our confidence in him for protection and blessing So doubtlesse may I say that there is an apparent difference betwixt Credere Ecclesiam Catholicam Credere Ecclesiae Caetholicae and Creaere in Ecclesiam Catholicam the first is to be assuredly perswaded and to beleeue that there is a Catholike Church which is the meaning of the article as the very phrase of speach sheweth and the other articles following Credo communionem Sanctorum I beleeue that there is a communion of Saints Credo remissionem peccatoruÌ„ I beleeue that there is a remission of sinnes Credo carnis resurrectionem I beleeue that there is a resurrection of the flesh c. The second Credere Ecclesiae catholicae is to giue credit vnto the Catholike Church and to embrace as trueth whatsoeuer the Church shall propound vnto vs which can not be the sense of the article except we will both confound these two phrases Credere Eccslesiam and Credere Ecclesiae so accurately distinguished by the master of the sentences and S. Augustin and make the wordes of men equall with Gods word The third Credere in Ecclesiam Catholicam is wholly to depend vpon the Catholike Church which we cannot make the sense of the article without violence to the wordes and great blasphemie to God Thus much by the way and by your gentle patience good mother of this article and the true meaning of it in generall because the mistaking thereof hath misled some into errour Now to returne seeing we beleeue the vniuersall or Catholike Church it followeth that it can not be seene â—eb 11.1 For faith as the Apostle writeth is the ground of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seene Not seene I say againe and intreat you to marke the worde And that a particular Church is not alwaies seene the storie of Elias prooueth pregnantly who could not see one and therefore was wery of his life â—ing 19.18 whereas God had kept vnto himselfe euen then when he complained and in that place where he liued yea in the middest of that people of whome he complained 7000. that had not bowed their knees vnto Ball. What may we thinke of these 7000. among the tenne trikes of Israel were they not Gods people worshipping him in spirit and in truth or is not the nuÌ„ber sufficiet to make a church Surely the number might well make seuen glorious particular Churches Rom. 1â— and the Apostle saieth of them first that God had kept them to himselfe secondly that they were his people thirdly that he knewe them before to wit in his eternall councell and almighty God himselfe to his prophet acknowledged them as his beloued and promised his protection vnto them that they should be safely kept Reasons 1. Reg. c. 19 1â—.17 18. I suppose sufficient both for number and weight to prooue that God had his church in that place and at that selfe same time when where the prophet Elias complained for want of a Church and fellowe members to worship God with him O if so many so deare vnto god at one time in one countrie worshipping the true God truly by the testimony of
Tit. S. Hierome considering well the place before named in the Acts saieth Quod magis mirum sit c. And that wee may the more maruaile we may once againe read this place of the Acts of the Apostles where wee finde that the Christian and Ecclesiastical discipline was euen then of wicked meÌ„ called Heresie Many others haue witnessed as much therefore since it is no new thing but the very custome of Satan euer I trust you see there is great cause not to be carried away with mens speaches whose eies be blinded by the god of this worlde but with true and sound proofes If they cannot shew that we haue fallen away from Christ nor from his Apostles nor from the prophets if we beleeue as surely we doe all that is written in them maintain nothing as necessarie to salvation but what may be plainely shewed to be taught vs by them how iniurious and shamfull yea fearefull a dealing it is neuerthelesse to call vs Heretiques good mother consider in your selfe Me thinkes in this place S. Austens speech somtimes to Petilian the Donatist is good who said thus contra Petil. 2. cap. 85. Vtrum nos schismatici sumus an vos nec ego nec tu sed Christus interrogetur vt indicet Ecclesiam suam Whether of vs be scismatiques or heretiques aske not of either of vs but let Christ be asked for vs both that he may shewe vs his owne Church that is let the scriptures bee searched and let them declare the trueth which they will doe M. Sonne for your first point that it is not safe to iudge of things by names because Gods truth hath bin called heresy as you haue shewed and I see it plainely I ioyne with you and take it for a good caveat hereafter to beware but for your second point that therefore you should not be counted heretiques because you say you holde nothing disagreeable to the scriprures I cannot approoue it because heretiques as I haue heard at al times haue boasted of scripture as you doe S. Good mother I am very glad you perceiue how truth hath bene slandered with the name of heresie Scripture and therefore how fit it is in matters of salvation not to be mooued by speches of men but euer to search seeke for due true proofe and for the second point I trust God shall make you see it also if it please you to goe along with me True it is which you say you haue heard that heretiques alleadge scripture and you knowe that the diuell himselfe who is as bad as any heretique 〈◊〉 4. alleadged scriptures but what then is not it therfore a safe way to cleaue to the scriptures and only vpon them to ground our faith yes surely which shall appeare euen by this practise of Satan being duly considered for such is the skill of that old subtill serpent that as he knoweth to fitte his temptations to the humour and disposition of them whome he tempteth so he vseth to set vpon men by those perswasions which he is most likely to seduce them by as to Eve in paradice he promised the knowledge of good and euill 〈◊〉 3. â—â—od 7. 〈◊〉 Chron. 18.11 to obstinate Pharaoh he presented lying wonders to wicked Ahab delighting in lies he came in the month and consent of many false prophets to the superstitious and hypocriticall Iewes he pretended the temple of the Lord â—er 7.4 â—ct 19.27 17. â—â— to the populous ancient heathen vniuersalitie and antiquity to our Sauiour the written word of God which he thought if any thing would preuaile with him So the diuell in alleadging onely scripture against our Sauiour turneth himselfe into an angell of light and would seeme to doe that which is most holy in it selfe most acceptable vnto god most comfortable to men most sure for their safegard and protection which doth not diâ—credit the triall of truth in points of faith by scripture only but rather countenance and confirme it because it argueth the disposition and setled affection of our blessed Sauiour towards these sacred writings that he made them the tower of his defence the rocke of his safegarde the foundation of his whole obedience accounted nothing a ground of faith and dutie but onely scripture and therefore that we likewise should cleaue fast to the written word of God turning neither to the right nor left hand but walking constantly in the obedience thereof Wherefore though this alleadging of scripture be a worke of darknesse both because he did misâ—alleadge it leaving out a principall part of the sentence and so corrupting it and also for that he did it as a lying spirit to deceiue Yet to alledge the scripture rightly with an vpright minde to a good ende shall euer be as the dutie of Gods people so the shield and buckler of their defence yea the crowne and glorie of the children of light whereby they shall resemble their head our blessed Saviour Christ Iesus who as you may see in the gospel gaue not ouer his holde because the deuill abused it but with scripture againe he answered him and so both iustified himselfe and confounded his aduersary which also hath beene the manner good mother of the church of God at all times As namely at the first most holy and vncorrupt Councell helde at Hierusalem by the Apostles themselues 〈◊〉 15. where the question debated was whether the beleeuing Gentiles could be saued onely by faith in Christ Iesus without circumcision and the obseruation of the lawe of Moses as Paul and Barnabas affirmed and preached against certaine who came from Iudea and taught the contrary For the deciding whereof in that most catholike and orthodoxall Councel S. Peter alleadged the testimony of God himselfe who sent him to the Gentiles Cornelius and his friendes to preach vnto them not the lawe of Moses but the word of the gospel that they might beleeue and blessed his ministerie with happy successe giuing vnto them the holy ghost and purifying their hearts by saith which he calleth Gods testimony God saith he bare witnesse vnto them giuing them the holy ghost c 〈◊〉 8. â— And S. Iames in his sentence alleadged the written word of God both to confirme that which S. Peter had deliuered and to ende the controuersie 〈◊〉 14. Symeon saith he hath declared howe god first visited the Gentiles tooke of them a people vnto his name and to this agree the wordes of the Prophets as it is written c. Likewise at the famous Counsell of Nice the worthy Emperour Constantine whome god raised vp to ende the persecutions of his Church and to giue it rest saide thus to the bishops assembled there Theod. lib. 1. cap. 7. Evangelicae Apostolicae literae c. the writings of the Evangelists and Apostles and the sayings of the olds Prophets doe clearely instruct vs what iudgement we ought to haue of the meaning and will of God Therefore laying
aside all contention let vs seeke out of those heauenly oracles the assoiling of our questions And of the Arrian herericks who in that counsel were ouerthrown another saith thus Explicantes sacras scripturas illâ—s euertimus Socr. l. 1. c. 6. by opening and expounding the holy scriptures we overthrowe them The like rule was followed at the counsell helde at Constantinople against the hereticke Macedonius that denied the divinitie of the holy ghost neuer mooue question hereof saith Athanasius ad Serapion but learne of the holy scriptures for the onely proofes that you shall there finde are sufficient And in another place the same father saith Scripturae sufficiunt adveritatis instructionem siue institutionem â—â—ra Genâ—es â—â—l Idola the scriptures are sufficient to instruct vs in the trueth Marke I pray you the word Sufficiunt In the other two Councels also of Ephesus and Chalcedon â—vagrius we read of the same course all things were concluded by the wordes of the Evangelists and Apostles The auncient father Origen saith Rom. lib. 10.16 Vnde quà m propè periculis illi sunt c. See and consider in what daunger they be that haue no care to read the holy scriptures for by the same scriptures onely the iudgement of this triall must be allowed ierom hom 1. And in another place Necesse est nobis scripturas sanctas in testimonium vocare sensus quippe nostri enarrationes sine iis testibus non habent fidem VVe must needes call to witnesse the holy scriptures for our iudgements and expositions without those witnesses carry no credit a notable saying if it please you to marke it And with him S. Austen fully agreeth when he saith 〈◊〉 Naâ— Grat. â— Solis Canonicis scipturis sine vlla recusatione consensum debeo Onely to the Canonicall scriptures do I owe my consent without gainsaying The same father againe when he disputed against Petilian the Donatist â—â—c Vnit. Ecâ—les c. 3. said Let not these vvordes be heard betweene vs I say or you say but let vs rather speake in this wise thus saith the Lord. Auferantur de medio chartae nostrae procedat in medium codex dei contra liâ— Pâ— l. 3 c. 6. Away with our bookes and let Gods booke come in place Siue enim de Christo siue de Ecclesia siue de quacunque aliâre quae pertinet adfidem vitamque nostram non dicamsi nos c. For whether it be of Christ or of his Church or of any thing els what soeuer pertaining either to our life or to our faith I will not say if I my selfe but if an angel from heauen shall teach vs otherwise then we haue receiued in the bookes of the law and in the gospel holde him accursed This is the proofe saith he againe quae nec falli nec fallere potest de peccat mâ—â— remist l. 1. c. 2â— which can neither deceiue nor be deceiued To the verie same effect speake all the fathers I assure you if it were needfull to repeat their wordes I beseech you saith S Chrisostom weigh not what this man or that thinketh in 2. Cor. hoâ—â—â— but touching all things search the scriptures S. Hierom saith Quod de scripturis autoritatem non habet eadem â—acilitate contemnitur qua probatur in 23. Mat. that which is not warranted by the scriptures may as easily be contemned as alleadged And so the rest of the fathers particularly euery one and therefore good Mother weigh it and note it that albeit both heretiques deuills abuse the scriptures by alleadging them to euill endes yet is it the true way and the onely way to be resolued by and to finde rest for our consciences in all matter of controuersie touching either faith or manners so taken so taught so held by Christ by his Apostles and by all the godly fathers and worthy approoued Councels in the world M. I must confesse that if the scriptures bee rightly applyed they are indeede the sure foundation that ought to be stood vpon but howe shall that appeare that you apply them rightly more then those whome you acknowledge heretiques which likewise haue alleadged them S. Good mother giue me leaue to make make much of that which I gaine from you in this conference and to recken it vp as deere vnto my verie soule for the duty I owe you and for the desire I haue that the trueth may be revealed vnto you This therefore now you see and confesse that although all the hereticks in the world and all the diuels in hell should alledge scripture and abuse it yet hath it not bin giuen of God in vaine but serueth as a sure ground of our faith and actions euery thing beeing alowable that is consonant vnto it and that alwaies faultie which is contrarie vnto it and therefore that we ought not to be beaten from it by any deuise of Satan but stedfastly to stick vnto it and euer to depend vpon it as the only sure ancher of our soules in like manner as all those worthy men and Councels before mentioned haue done For what quietnes to my minde like to this Thou Lord hast commanded me thus to beleeue and thus to doe therefore I so beleeve and so doe Interpretatioâ— of scripture Only you sticke nowe at the right application of them and aske howe shall you know that Surely mother you shall know it euen to your full contentment if you will doe as others before you godly and holy persons both men women haue done lib. 83. quaest 〈◊〉 Saint Austen saith Solet circumstantia Scripturarum illuminare sententiam The circumstance of the scriptures is vvout to giue light and open the meaning thereof in Esai c. 19 Saint Hierome saith Moris est scripturarum obscuris manifesta subnectere It s the manner of the scriptures after harde thinges to ioyne other things that be plaine Tertullian saith Opertet secundum plura intelligi pauciora The fewer things must be expounded by the moe Hil. de Trin. 9. S. Hilary saith Intelligentia dictorum ex causa dicendi fumenda est the vnderstanding of things spokeÌ„ must be taken froÌ„ the cause of speaking theÌ„ expraepositis consequeÌ„tibus by things going before and following after S Cyril saith Cyr. Thâ—s l. â— c. 2. whensoeuer we woulde vnderstande any place of scripture we must consider three things the time when it was written the person that writ and to whome or of whom and the matter it selfe Many such good rules haue the fathers which as you see greatly help in the thing you desire and which if we vse no doubt we shall finde as they found then haue we the gratious promise of gods holy spirit if we aske it and what a sure guide is that the performance of which promise see in the Gospell c. 24. then opened he their vnderstanding that they might vnderstand the scriptures See it in
that good woman Lydia the purple seller 〈◊〉 16. whose heart was also opened This blessed gift doth the Apostle think of when he wisheth to the Ephesians the spirit of wisdome and revelation that the eyes of their vnderstanding might be opened â—hes 1.17 lightned that they might knowe c. So to the Philippians and to the Colossians and of this speaketh Elihu in the booke of Iob â—lip 1.9 â—lost 1.9 There is a spirit in man but the inspiration of the almighty giueth vnderstanding Iob 32.8 This did king Dauid knowe and therefore asked this heauenly gift by earnest prayer often saying Teach me O Lord teach me thy statutes teach me thy waies open mine eyes that I may beholde the wonderfull things in thy lawe Origen saith Orandus est Deus vt aperiat librum obsignatum we must beseech God by prayer to open the booke that is sealed The Lord is no respect of persons but as he hath done he will doe and heare the desires of his children that wish to know his will This is the way mother this is the way that neuer failed any who vsed it neither will it faile you But you shall see by it the true and right applying of the scriptures howsoeuer others abuse and mis-construe them In a worde therefore marke I beseech you that we doe not affirme all cases of doubt to be by manifest and open wordes plainely expressed in scripture for so there should neede no exposition but we say and affirme that there is no case in religion necessarie to Gods worship or mans salvation so darke and doubtful but it may necessarily be either prooued or disprooued by true collection and conference in scripture M Sonne I marke your speech well and your words fall not to the ground yet I hope you will confesse that our men doe well in regarding the doctours as they doe S. Surely mother I doe confesse the doctours of the Church worthy of more regard then is giuen them sometimes by Romish Catholickes Doctoures And you see by my alleadging of them that I greatly regard them But seeing you haue mentioned this matter I doe hartely intreat you to marke a fewe things in that behalfe First that they are not Domini sedduces nostri Not our Lords but our leaders And therfore S. Augustin saith Other writers or fathers besides the holy scriptures I read in this sort that be their learning or holinesse neuer so great I wil not thinke it true because they haue thought so but because they are able to perswade me so either by Canonicall writers or els by some likely reason Likewise againe This kind of writings meaning the holy doctoures must be reade not with necessitie to beleeue each thing but with libertie to iudge each thing For we may not consent to the bishops notwithstanding they be Catholike â—nit Eccl. c. if they iudge contrarie to the holy Canonicall scriptures This is the right credit of holy fathers they are not the trueth of God it selfe but onely witnesses vnto the trueth no more haue they they theÌ„selues euer desired no lesse ought we euer to giue them Heare I pray you the words of the same father againe we receiue not the disputations or writings of any men be they neuer so Catholicke or praise-worthy Fortunat. â—â—t 111. as we receiue the Canonicall scriptures but that sauing their reuerence we may well reprooue or refuse some things in their writings if it happen we finde they haue otherwise though then the trueth may beare them out such am I in the writings of others and such would I wish others to be in mine He writeth to S. Hierom againe to the same effect Non puto frater ep 19. c. My brother I doe not thinke you would haue vs so to read your bookes as if they were written by the Apostles and Prophets To the like purpose writeth Tertullian of himselfe and the rest wherein their holy modestie is worthy great praise for euer they tooke not vpon them to be Lords but leaders and to that ende the Lord hath giuen theÌ„ as excellent lights to his church So of Counsels S. Austen telleth vs that the former are reiected by the later c. Likewise Panormitan saith vve ought to giue more credit to on lay man then to an whole councell and to the Pope if he bring better authority and more reason This is my first obseruatioÌ„ in this matter of the doctours My secoÌ„d is this which I humbly pray you to marke that as scriptures haue beene abused by heretiques so haue fathers and therefore if we must giue ouer the one for mis-applyings so must we the other also for the same reason The Arrian heretiques alleadged Origens bookes for their defence and safegard Socr. l. 4. c. Concil Ch act 2. p. 732 the heretique Eutiches saide I haue read the writings of the father Saint Cyprian as also of other holy writers and of the holy father Saint Athanasius Another of his sect cryed this is my faith according to the exposition of 318 fathers The Nestorian heretiques alleadged the Counsel of Nice p. â—â—7 and not to weary you with many Dioscorus the heretique cried out in the open Councell of Chalcedon 〈◊〉 1. p. 767. Ego habeo testimonia sanctorum patrum I haue the testimonies of the holy fathers Athanasius Gregory Cyrill I varie not from them in any point I am thrown forth and banished with the fathers I defend the fathers doctrine I haue their iudgement vttered not by chaunce or vnaduisedly but remaining expressed in their bookes Therefore you see good mother that heretiques haue cried as well fathers fathers as scriptures scriptures and yet neither the one nor the other for this cause to be reiected My third obseruation might be of counterfeit and young yesterday fathers alleadged by papists and of small credit or reuerence giuen to fathers by them that boast thus of fathers when they please whereof I assure you we haue notable examples with many things moe but that I feare to be troublesome vnto you M. Yet sonne seeing our faith was long before yours me thinks the fathers should rather make for vs then for you S. And why say you not so of the scriptures which were many yeares before any of the fathers Surely if your faith were before ours Old faith as well scriptures as fathers would giue on your side and indeed both would make for you New faith the fathers desiring to holde nothing but that they iudged agreeable to scripture which euer they make the rule and ground of faith and trueth and not their own writings as you haue seene But good Mother they abuse you and many moe that tell you your faith that is as nowe you meane the Romish faith was before ours for I assure you it is not so but very newe and younge in comparison of ours M. What our faith newe Sonne yours old Alas I see these
newe teachers haue possest you mightily you are so carried away with them that they are able to make you beleeue any thing Why tell me the crowe is white or the snowe is blacke S. Good Mother the Lord hath mooued your heart to heare me speake who am yours and of you If I speake amisse as you thinke and so as you cannot consent vnto me with me leaue we it both to the working power of a mighty God who in further time can giue further light and vnderstanding to his children that humbly craue it and are not lifted vp with an high hand to withstand his offered grace Onely according to this motherly loue that you haue began to shew me vouchsafe to here me still vpon what groundes I haue setled my selfe and with what proofe I am mooued to thinke as I doe M. Surely sonne I coulde not abide or indure to heare any other once speake of such a straunge thing as this but say you on what you list you are my childe S. I doe verely beleeue it seemeth most straunge to you and to many moe of your side to heare that your religion is newe and ours olde Yet I doubt not but to make it evidently apparent vnto you and all whosoeuer shall without preiudice duly consider my allegations and proofe But first I must interpret my selfe in a worde or two what I meane by your faith and religion I pray you therefore when I speake of your Romish religion thinke not that I meane the whole doctrine and all the articles of faith and religion taught and professed by the Papists but onely those points of doctrine wherein they differ from vs. For in generall they hold the doctrine of the lawe and tenne commandements as we doe sauing that they leaue out the second commandement which forbiddeth the worshipping of Idols and Images making two of the tenth they professe also the summe of the gospell at least in generalitie and in wordes to wit that Christ Iesus perfect God and perfect man hath wrought our full redemption and by the blood of his crosse and pretious death prrfect obedience hath deliuered vs from eternall death the fierch and euerlasting wrath of God the due desert of our transgressions and purchased for vs euerlasting peace and blisse they maintaine also and professe in wordes as we also doe the three creedes the Nicene the Athanasian and the Apostolike creede wherein is comprised the summe of our faith and the doctrine we professe they acknowledge that most excellent forme and paterne of prayer taught vs in the gospel by our Sauiour and vse it and many other good and godly prayers which we also vse euen all those vvelneere in our common liturgie except a very fevve for our most gratious Queene sauing that they vse theÌ„ in latin vve in english that all may vnderstand and say amen Wherefore vvhen I say that your religion is nevv meane not generally nor of the things before rehearsed but only in respect of certeÌ„ other articles and points of religion maintained by Romish catholikes as namely 1. that the traditioÌ„s of the church are of equall authority vviâ—h the vvorde of god to be embraced with like reuerence and deuotion 2. that the vulgar latin translation commonly called Hieromes is onely authenticall 3. that the imputation of Christs righteousnes and obedience to the faithfull is a fantasie without ground in Gods word 4. that the bread in the sacrament of the Eucharist transubstantiated into the body of Christ is to be adored 5. that the faithfull are able to keepe the whole lawe of God 6. that the Pope is Christs generall vicar vpon earth hauing absolute power to ratifie or disanull all manner of decrees and ordinances and to dispense with the expresse and moral precepts of God at his pleasure 7. That the whole Church without him can neither enact nor infringe any lawe ecclesiasticall nor interpret any scripture 8. that the holy scriptures ought not to be translated into any vulgar tongue or reade of the lay people 9. that the sacrament of the Lords supper is to be administred onely in bread and not in wine Quia sapor possit generate suspitionem quòd esset ibi â—inum least as the Sorbonists at Paris say the people should smell it to be wine and so doubt of transubstaÌ„tiatioÌ„ 10. that good works are meritorious and that by them we are iustified in the sight of God 11. that the soules of the faithfull dying before perfect repentance suffer the torments of purgatory 12. that prayers are to be made in an vnknowen tongue such like of al which and the rest wherein they disagree from vs I say they are newe and yesterday opinions in comparison of the faith which we hold consonant to the holy scriptures and those famous ancient creeds before mentioned And therefore now to proceede to the declaration of that which I haue vndertaken touching the noueltie of your faith Thus good Mother haue our men written at this day teach that it goeth not with Religion as it doth with the statutes of the realme iudgements at common law where the later is thought to be the better but in religion the first and eldest is best Therefore they euer remember that golden saying of Tertullian that is true which was first that is first which was from the beginning and that was from the beginning which was deliuered by the Apostles but our faith is that was deliuered by the Apostles yours is not therfore ours is froÌ„ the beginning and so first yours not and therefore later Now that ours is that which was deliuered by the Apostles they prooue it thus Another ancient father saith That which the Apostles preached and deliuered to the world by preaching Irenaeus they afterward by the will of God committed to writing that for euer it might be the foundation and ground of faith Wherevpon it followeth that which the Apostles preached is the old auncient Catholike and Apostolike saith but that which they haue written is that which they preached so saith this father therfore that which is written is the true auncient Catholike and Apostolike faith that is ours For as I haue saide we hold nothing as necessarie to salvation but that which is truly taught vs out of these written scriptures Therefore our faith is that which was deliuered by the Apostles your faith is not that which is written For your men wil not be tried by the scriptures onely as knowing that many things they hold haue no warrant there but haue deuised vnwritten traditions therefore yours is not that which was deliueeed by the Apostles and not the old faith but a late newe faith devised by men M VVhy that which was deliuered by tradition Tradition was deliuered by the Apostles as wel as that which they wrot S. True Mother if it could as soundly appeare vnto vs what they deliuered as it doth by their writings what they preached But
this father that I named vnto you saith they wrot that which they deliuered and they wrote it by the will of God as not trusting tradition vnwritten and they wrote it to be for euer the ground of our faith noting that vnwritten tradition may not be the ground because it is vncertain and full of imperfection as I could shewe you if we were to speake of that matter Therefore seeing this which is written is certainly and assuredly that which they deliuered and we hold nothing but that which is agreeable to this which is written you see it is most plaine that we holde nothing but that which the Apostles themselues deliuered and so our faith the old faith which was from the beginning and first M. Surely if you holde nothing but that which is written it is certaine that that which was written was deliuered by the Apostles and so it followeth that you hold nothing but that which was deliuered by the Apostles and Prophets and therfore your faith olde indeede and not to be reiected And for tradition although we may be told that this and that was deliuered by the Apostles and their successours and so by them to theirs againe to this day yet I must needes confesse that is not so manifest and plaine as which is written neither doth it yeeld such contentment to my conscience But I can not tell what to say it is a sure and steadfast way to trust to that which is written rather then to that which is reported and yet I am loath â—o offend you shal giue me leaue to pause think more of it S. Yea deere Mother and with the hart of a dutifull child I say the father of our Lord Iesus Christ lighten the eyes of your vnderstanding in all things to the glory of his great name and your eternall comfort but be you assured in this that we hold nothing as needfull to our saluation but that which is written in expresse wordes or by sure and plaine collection and therefore make the consequence as the Lord shall direct you M. Howe then commeth it to passe that your religion is still called new new S. Even as I told you before it is one of Satans trickes to discredit trueth and hath in all times beene vsed of him But as then your selfe collected by that which I alleadged that it is not safe to be lead by tearmes and names without due considering howe iustly and truely they are giuen so I beseech you do here again and be not mooued with the name for questionles there can nothing be more spitefully spoken against the religion of God then to accuse it of noueltie as a matter lately found out For as there can be no change in God himselfe so ought there be no change in his religion Yet still I say Satan hath taken this course euen from the beginning to call trueth newe which indeede is not onely of greatest antiquitie but also froÌ„ euerlasting That vngratious blood thirstie Haman when he sought to procure the king Assuerus his dspleasure against the Iewes vsed this slaunder against them of noveltie telling the king that he had in his domion a kinde of people that vsed certaine newe lawes of their own c. Act. 1â— WheÌ„ Paul also began first to preach and expound the Gospel at Athens he was called a tidings-bringer of new Gods that is of a newe religion for said the Athenians may we not knowe of thee what newe doctrine this is Origen again telleth vs of Celsus that when he wrot of set purpofe against Christ to the ende he might scornefully scosse at the gospell he accused it of noueltie and said Orig. conâ—a Câ—lsum vvhat hath God after so many ages now at last bethought himselfe whose vile blasphemies that auncient father in his bookes written against him answereth Eusebius also saith that the Christian religion from the beginnnig for verie spite was called new and straunge Euseb l. 1 c. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Sentence was giuen of condemnation that S. Audrewe should be crucified for teaching and enterprising a newe sect and taking away the religion of their Gods Shall we then bee mooued with this tearme and carried away with this name No God forbid These examples are a faire warning for vs to take heede of that lightnesse and rashnesse Let the deuil rage against trueth with what names God shall suffer him and his members yet this shall euer stand that the doctrine of the Church is elder then any Idolatrie or superstition of the Gentiles that the doctrine of the Gospell was preached in Paradise by God himselfe saying The seede of the vvoman shall bruise the serpentâ— head That the writings of Moses are elder the any writings of the Gentiles the doctrine of the Apostles elder then Popery or any other heresie and that we at this day hold nothing as I haue often said but what appeareth out of the Apostles owne writings alowed both by vs and our aduersaries to be their vvritinges to be their ovvne doctrine deliuered to the Church to be beleeued and for men and vvomen to be saued by M. Surely I see still it is not safe to be carried away vvith names and to beleeue all to be nevve vvhich is called so or all olde vvhich is named olde for so vve may be deceiued But yet in shevve of the vvorlde ours hath had a longer continuance then yours S. I must needes here once againe remember you what I meane by your religion to wit those pointes of doctrine onely wherein you differ from vs. And then I answer first that your religion euen in shewe of the world hath not had a longer continuance then ours especially for the principall points whereon wee stand as namely 1. the articles of our Creede which is a briefe and summe of catholik faith as Athanasius plainely witnesseth Symbol Athanas Haee est fides Catholica and the Councell of Trent confesseth 1. the acknowledgment of gods diuine law and the worshipping of god according to that law 3. the doctrine of repentance froÌ„ dead workes and of faith in Iesus Christ for the remission of sinne 4 the doctrine of the Sacraments Baptisme and the Lords supper which are the fundamentall points of out faith and religion and the rocke whereon we build our soules and Church and without controuersie of greater antiquity then those points of doctrine which we call popery Besides I answer although your religion in shew of the world were more ancient then ours yet that ought to be no disparagement to ours or aduaÌ„cemeÌ„t to yours for god afflicteth his church as pleaseth him maketh vs see that it is like the moone whervnto it is compared now growing now ful now waining we may not mesure truth by worldly couÌ„tenaÌ„ce but by that rule which neuer faileth the word of God and if our faith be that which there is taught warraÌ„ted the you haue heard which is the old true Catholik faith