Selected quad for the lemma: ground_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
ground_n	apostle_n	doctrine_n	faith_n	1,496	5	5.4771	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A07782	A Christian dialogue, betweene Theophilus a deformed Catholike in Rome, and Remigius a reformed Catholike in the Church of England Conteining. a plaine and succinct resolution, of sundry very intricate and important points of religion, which doe mightily assaile the weake consciences of the vulgar sort of people; penned ... for the vtter confusion of all seditious Iesuites and Iesuited popelings in England ...	Bell, Thomas, fl. 1593-1610.	1609 (1609)	STC 1816; ESTC S101425	103,932	148

same so pithily as I must perforce yeelde thereunto I will proceed by your fauour to be resolued in other doubts Remig. Leaue nothing vnsayd which possibly can bée deuised or aduised for the supposed prerogatiues of your Pope Obiection fourth Theoph. The Apostle telleth vs that the Church cannot erre and he proues it because it is the pillar and ground of truth Remig. It is true that the Apostle saith so and my selfe do willingly admit the doctrine and humbly reuerence the same I most willingly grant y● Christs church cannot erre in matters of faith we differ not in the nature of the thing markewel my words but in the modification and application of the thing that is to say wèe all grant on all sides that the Church cannot erre but we differ in the application of our grant what Church it is that cannot erre what Church meane you M. Theophilus Theoph. I meane as all Catholikes doe of the Pope and Church of Rome Remig. I told you that you are but bastards and deformed Catholikes as your owne Capuchéenes do tell your deformed Franciscans and withall I tell you that the Pope or Church of Rome which is with Papists all one hath de facto erred egregiously as is already proued Nay it is vnpossible that the Apostle should meane of your Pope or Church of Rome I proue it many wayes First because the famous Popish Doctor Iohannes Gersonus hath fréely told vs as we haue heard already related the the Bishop of Rome hath de facto erred not onely in his priuate opinion but also in his publike and iudiciall definitions that therefore we haue no infallible Iudge vpon earth sauing these two viz. the whole Congregation of the faithfull and a generall Councell sufficiently representing the same where I wish you to marke attentiuely the word Sufficiently because it is very emphatical ● of great moment Secondly because the Popish Doctor Syluester Pryeras a diuine so learned that he is by them so named Absolutus Theologus confirmeth the opinion and doctrine of M. Gerson the famous Chauncelor of Paris in these expresse words Et sic intellige glossam dicentem quod Ecclesia quae errare non potest dicitur non papa sed congregatio fidelium quae scilicet tenet fidem quam Petrus eum alijs populis docuit And thus must the glosse be vnderstood which saith that y● Church which cannot erre is not the Pope but the congregation of the faithfull that is such as hold firmely that faith which Peter with other godly people taught Thirdly because Panormitanus that famous Popish Canonist Abbot Arch-bishop Cardinall for he was all foure and therefore of high estéeme with the Pope and Church of Rome iumpeth with the other learned Papists Gerson and Syluester and stoutly cōfirmeth their doctrine These are his expresse words Nam in concernentibus sidem c. For concerning matters of faith euen the iudgemēt of one that is a méere lay-man ought to be preferred before the sentence of the Pope if that lay-man could bring Better reasons out of the old and newe Testament then did the Pope And it skilleth not if one say that a Councell cannot erre because Christ prayed for his Church that it should not faile for I say that although a generall Councell represent the whole vniuersall Church yet in truth there is not truly the vniuersall Church but representatiuely For the vniuersall Church which is it that cannot erre consisteth of the collection of all the faithful Whereupon all the faithful in the world make this Church vniuersal whereof Christ is the head The Pope is the Uicar of Christ but not truly the head of y● Church as noteth the glosse vpon the Clementines which glosse saith notably that when the Pope is dead the Church wanteth not an head and this is that Church which cannot erre whereupon it is possible that the true faith of Christ might remaine in one alone and so it may be truely said that the faith faileth not in the Church Christ before his passion prayed for Peter that his faith should not faile therefore the Church is not said to faile neither to erre so long as the true faith abideth in one onely thus writeth this famous and learned papist Fourthly because the Popes owne deare glosse vpon his owne d●●rées doth most liuely describe that Church which cannot erre to be the Congregation of the faithfull for thus is it there written in expresse termes Quaero de qua Ecclesia intelligas quod hic dicitur quod non possit errare si de ipso Papa certum est quod Papa errare potest respondeo ipsa congregatio fidelium hic dicitur Ecclesia talis Ecclesia non potest non esse I aske thee O Pope Leuci of what Church thou vnderstandest that which thou tellest vs in this place to wit that the Church cannot erre for if thou vnderstand it of the Pope himselfe it is certaine that the Pope may erre I therefore answere that the Church is here taken for the congregation of the faithfull and such a Church can neuer erre indéede Fiftly because the popish ceremoniall practise in the holy wéeke while they put out all the candles saue one doth liuely expresse vnto vs that the Church of Rome and Bishop there may erre indéede for thereby the romish Church doth giue vs to vnderstand that the light of faith was extinguished in all generally saue only in the blessed virgin Mary that most holy mother of true God and true man and so their vsuall yéerely practise thrée daies together in the wéeke afore Easter doth vtterly condemne the faith of the Pope and of the Church of Rome Sixthly because S. Austen and S. Anselme doe both of them so expound S. Pauls words the ground of this obiection these are S. Austens expresse words secundum ergo sabbathi c. therefore we may not vnderstād the second of the sabbath to be any other then the Church of Christ yet the Church of Christ in the saints the Church of Christ in those which are not ouercome with the tentations of this wicked world for they are worthy the name of Firmament therefore the Church of Christ is called the Firmament in those that are firme which is saith he the Church of the liuing God the piller and Firmament of truth The like saying hath the same holy father in many other places but especially where he writeth against the Donatists Anselmus an auncient father and well approued of the papists doth follow Saint Austens interpretation these are his words Domus in qua Deus habitat c. the house in which God dwelleth is the whole congregation of the faithfull who are to be taught diuersly and the same Church is in the perfect a pillar that is sublime straight inconcussible supporting lifting vp the yonger sort and in the same perfect it is the firmament of truth because in

be too chargeable to you if I tarry long with you Remig. I liue as you sée like a scholler and kéepe but a sparing diet if you can content your selfe therewith I shall ioy thereat For I know assuredly that our mercifull God who fréely without my deserts sendeth me al things necessary for my bodily sustenance and who hath also fréely promised not to suffer a cuppe of cold water giuen in his name to passe at any time without reward will neuer sée or suffer me to want things necessary to my selfe for bestowing Christian hospitality vpon my neighbour for his sake yéeld therefore your serious attention and ye shall behold these thrées things as cleare as the noo●e day viz. the false and erroneous faith of your Bishops of Rome their most brttish and de●estable liues and their interrupted and most uncerta●● succession as which is so mingled and mangled or rather so defaced and vtterly extinguished that no man can tell what indéede to make thereof Of which thrée points while I shall distinctly discourse I would haue you to put forth plainly and at large all such doubts as any way doe trouble you for that I hold the best course for your full satisfaction and confirmation in the truth of the true auncient Cathalike and orthodore faith CHAP. 2. Of the false and erroneous faith of the late Bishops of Rome Theophilus VVE at Rome hold it constantly for an article of the Chatholike faith that our Popes and Bishops are the successors of S. Peter and therefore can they not erre in faith or doctrine no more then S. Peter could for whose faith Christ prayed that it should neuer faile Remig. How the late Bishops of Rome are S. Peters successors it shall be shewed God willing in the chapter of succession Let vs now vnfold and sincerely examine the faith and doctrine of some speciall Popes in particular for the view and consideration of a few will be a sufficient tryall for all the rest Theoph. I must needes yeeld thereunto for we hold it a part of the Catholike faith that Christs prayer was effectuall for all S. Peters successors alike so as if any one of them can be conuinced to haue erred we cannot safely relie and ground our faith vpon the rest Remig. That the Bishops or Popes of Rome as ye call them may become heretikes yea that they haue béene heretikes de facto it is a thing so cleare as I shall not neede to stand long vpon the same for many popish decrées and Papall constitutions tell vs that Popes may be deposed when and so often as they swarue from the true faith and become heretikes indéede which decrées and constitutions must perforce presuppose that the Popes may be heretikes indéede for otherwise they should be frustrate and to none end at all one popish Canon and decrée hath these expresse words the Pope iudgeth all and must be iudged of none vnlesse he swarue from the faith and be an heretike another Canon hath these words sheepe which are committed to their pastor may neither rebuke him nor in any wise accuse him vulesse he depart and forsake the faith these are the words of the Popes owne Canons I doe alledge them truely as I meane to do all the reste whatsoeuer I shall speake of the Popes themselues or of any popish writer which I proteste vnto you once for all as I will answere the saine at the dreadfull day of generall doome Now we sée by these Canons that the Popes may be heretikes and in the case of heresie be censured controlled and condemned Theoph. I heartily thanke you for this your Christian protestation it fully perswadeth me that I may safely giue credit to all your allegations and asseuerations whatsoeuer you say of our Popes Popish writers and their Faith and Doctrine But can yee name any Pope indeede that hath been an Heretique or an Apostate from the Faith our honorable and learned Cardinall the Iesuite Bellarmine statly denieth it Remig. Pope Anastasius Pope Honorius Pope Iohn and others haue beene Heretickes Vignerius Melchier Canus Alphonsus and Adrianus all foure famous and learned Papists and one of them Adrianils sometime Pope himselfe doe affirme it and defend it for a constant and vndoubted truth Nicholaus de Lyra a famous Popish Frier so learned a man that Sir Thomas Moore called him a great Clearke as he was indéede preueth euidently that the Church doth not consist in men by reason of power or dignity either Ecclesiasticall or Secular and this is the ground and foundation vpon which hée buildeth his assertion because saith Fryer Lyra many Princes and Popes and others of the inferiour sort are sound to haue swarued from the faith and to haue béene flat Apostataes Yea Iosephus Angles a famous Popish Bishop and religious Fryer in that very booke which hée deliuered to the Pope himselfe behold the force of truth confirmeth this mine assertion in these expressed words Papa hereticus aut Apostata c. The Pope being an Heretique or Apostata may bee deposed by a generall Councel and the reason is because as none can be a Prelate of any religion which is not professed in that religion so neither can he be Pope that holdeth not the faith o● the Church Thus you see it cléere euen by Popish famous Doctors the Popes owne decrées such 〈…〉 none can be better that the Bishope of Rome may forsake the Christian faith teach false Doctrine and become flat Apostataes Yea that de facto the same hath béene verified of sundry Popes in very déede Theoph. Our Cardinall Bellarmine and other learned Catholiques tell vs that our Pope is a double person priuate and publique that as he is a priuate person hee may thinke speake write and hold erroneous opinions false doctrine and whatsoeuer else yet this notwithstanding that the Pope as he is Pope and a publique person can neuer erre in any matter of faith nor iudicially define any thing against the truth This our famous Dominican Fryer Dominicus de Soto setteth downe in these expresse words quamuis Papa vt Papa c. Albeit the Pope as Pope cannot erre that is to say cannot set downe any errour as an article of our faith because the holy Ghost will not that permit neuerthelesse as hee is a priuate person he may erre euen in faith as he may do in other sinnes Remig. This indéede is the ground and foundationo all Popish faith and doctrine that the Pope may erre as a priuate man but not as Pope and publique person for this cause doth M. Watson tell vs in the name of all the secular Priests in their conflict against the traiterous Iesuits that as the prudent Gréeke appealed from Alexander furious to Alexander sober and Bishop Crostrate from Pope Adrian priuate to Pope Adrian publique and as sumus pontifex in cathedra Petri so may the secular Priests the Popes deuoted vassals notwithstanding any decrée

seeme truely and sincerely to relate I will thinke vpon them they enforce me to stagger and to doubt of the Catholike saith Remig. I deale sincerely with the papists I protest vpon my saluation for I hold it a great sinne to bely the diuell of hell but God forbid that ye should doubt of the Catholike faith Theoph. I remember well your distinction of deformed and reformed Catholikes I meane the deformed Catholike faith which I now suspect to be the romish faith of our late Popes I am not able to gainesay or withstand the truth your reasons are so strong your testimonies so plaine your applications so euident your grounds so inuincible that I cannot doe withall but needes I must giue great credit to the same Remig. You shall yet heare stranger matters of your Popes hearken to them attentiuely Pope Celestine the third of that name erred as Pope and publike person in his iudiciall and publike decrée this to be so Alphonsus aboue named that famous and religious papist is a constant witnesse in these words Celestinum Papa crasse circa matrimonium fidelium quorum al●er labitur in haeresim res est omnibus manifesta neque hic Celestini error talis fuit qui soli negligentiae imputari debuit ita vt illum errasse dicamus velut priuatam personam non vt Papam qui in qualibet re seria definienda consulere debet viros doctos quoniam hui●smodi Celistini definitio habebatur in antiquis decretalibus in capite laudabilem titulo de conuersione infidelium quam ego ipse vidi legi That Pope Celestine erred about matrimony of the faithfull whereof the one is fallen into heresie it is a thing so manifest as all men know the same neither was this error of Pope Celestine such as may be imputed to sole negligence so as we may thinke he erred as a priuate man and not as Pope who ought in euery serious decrée to aske councell of the learned for that decrée of Celestine was in the old decretall epistles in the chapter Laudabilem which I my selfe haue séene and read out of these word of Alphonsus who was a man highly renowned among the papists I obserue many worthy and memorable points First that Pope Celestine erred and that not as a priuate man but euen as Pope and publike person Secondly that he erred in a very serious matter euen in a matter of faith to wit that matrimony was so dissolued by reason of heresie that the faithfull man or woman might marry again the hereticall party liuing which thing saith Alphonsus a great learned man and a zealous papist was manifest to euery man to be an heresie and the popish late councell of Trent hath defined so to be Thirdly that this decrée and definition of Pope Celestine was in those daies enrolled in the Popes decretalls Fourthly that Alphonsus both saw and read the same decrée Fiftly that the said decrée cannot this day be found among the Popes decretall epistles so then the Popes vse to change not onely their faith but also their decrées Theoph. I see well that simple people are shamfully abused and that the late Popes haue egregiously seduced them for this is a case so cleare as euery child may perceiue the same that which the Pope and his Iesuits tell vs of his double person is but atrick of Legerdemarie For Alphonsus saith plainely and resolutely I see it cannot bee denied that Pope Celestine erred as Pope and publique person and not as a priuate man Remig. Let this testimony neuer bee forgotten for it ouerthroweth and beateth flat to the ground the chiefest bulwarke and strongest sort of all popish faith It condenmeth the Pope and his doctrine both affirmatiuely negatiuely Affirmatiuely because it a●outheth the Pope to haue erred as Pope and publique person Negatiuely because it flatly denieth him to haue erred as a priuate person But there is another point in this testimony and that of great importance which may not bée forgotten I know not if you haue marked the same Theoph. What is the point I beseech you Remig. It is a kind of Iugling and Legierdemaine where with the Popes and their denoted vassals haue seduced the world a long time they alter and change their Romish faith and doctrine at their owne good will and pleasure and to hide and couer the nakednesse of their Popes publike errors hereticall decrées they cashéere and make away such former decrées of former Popes as they cannot for shame approue or by any honest meanes defend the same For as Alphonsus here telleth vs this hereticall decrée and definition which Celestine made as Pope and not as a priuate person was in y● old decretall epistles but this day cannot be found Theoph. This point indeed I did not obserue because Alphonsus saith he saw and read the same but not that it is not this day to be found Remig. Alphonsus saith he saw the decrée and read it in the old decretals and nameth the chapt eit● where it was whereby he giueth vs to vnderstand that in the latter decretals he could not finde the same He further insinuateth to vs that albeit we cannot finde the same iudiciall sentence in the decretals nowadaies yet may we assure our selues of the truth thereof for that himselfe both had séene and read the same in the old decretals for if hee had found the same in the later printed decretals he would not haue giuen the reader this cau●at viz. that it was set downe in the old decretals in the Chapter Laudabilem and consequently that the deniall thereof would not serue to excuse the Pope Nay I will yet shew you a cléerer case if any cléerer can be Theoph. I know not doubtlesse how a cleerer case can be found yet for the better confirmation of the truth I pray you withdraw not your paine Remig. Saint Cyprian was an ancient Father alearned Writer and a glorious Martyr of our Lord Iesus and for all that he both beléeued and publiquely declared that the Bishops of Rome might erre as well as other Bishops their brethren not onely in their priuate opinions but also in their definitiue sentences iudiciall decrées For first though Cornelius then Bishop of Rome together with the whole national Synode of all the Bishopps of Italy had made a slat decrée touching rebaptization and secondly though Pope Stephanus had confirmed the same decrée and stricktly commanded it to be obserued and thirdly though our Papists too much Iesuited and Italianized doe of late daies obstinately affirme as appeareth by the notes of the Rhemists vpon the new Testament that their Pope cannot erre when hee defineth iudicially yet this notwithstanding S. Cyprian both practically and iudicially giueth vs to vnderstand that in his time the Bishop of Rome had no such priuiledge as he this day arrogantly Antichristianly taketh vpon him for we Cyprian stoutly and resolutely withstood the decrée of Pope tephanus who at that time