Selected quad for the lemma: ground_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
ground_n	apostle_n	church_n	scripture_n	2,161	5	5.9273	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A30650	A vindicaton of churches, commonly called Independent, or, A briefe answer to two books the one, intituled, Twelve considerable serious questions, touching church-government, the other, Independency examined, unmasked, refuted, &c. : both lately published by William Prinne ... / Henry Burton ...	Burton, Henry, 1578-1648.	1644 (1644)	Wing B6176; ESTC R20892	61,118	78

serve for Christ will not have his people to be wandring sheep when they may have a fold nor to be individua vaga when they may be reduced to order The ninth Interrogatory This Interrogatory lays a charge upon Independents for refusing to admit to the Lords Supper such as are not notoriously scandalous nor grossely ignorant but professe repentance c. which you say is a very uncharitable arrogant yea unchristian practise contrary to Christs own example in admitting Iudas to the Lords Supper Also to that of Paul 1 Cor. 11. you calling it also a transcendent straine of tyrannicall usurpation over soules and consciences and Gods Ordinances worse then our most domineering Lordly Prelates c. yea Lording over Christ himselfe and more then ever the Apostles did but onely by their extraordinary calling c. I answer in one word omitting your copious aggravations and sharp censures that we look further then to a generall profession and conversation namely to their faith in Christ that it be sound intire and whole and namely whether they hold him to be as the onely Prophet and High Priest so the onely Prince of his People the onely Lord and Lawgiver to every mans conscience and over every Congregation or Church of his Saints If they thus acknowledge not Christs kingly office as well as his other offices we doe not we dare not receive them And what have they to do with the seales that refuse by covenant to own Christ for their King As for Judas he received the sop not the supper for after the sop he went out * immediately saith John So as it appeares the other Evangelists relate some other passages by a hysteron proteron as is not unusuall in Scripture story And none of them saith that he received the Supper And suppose ●e did the Churches Censure had not yet past upon him onely John by a secret signe knew he was to be the traytor For that of the Apostle 1 Cor. 11. 28. that was a true Church though now disordered and the Apostle refers the redressing of their abuses to themselves The case is otherwise here so as all your accumulated calumniations fall to ground And concerning the Apostles extraordinary calling if we must expect the like calling we must not in the meane time admit of any either to Baptisme or to the Lords Supper neither should there be any gathering of Churches at all as some from hence doe gather Besides what shall the authority be that Luther gathered the Churches by and those that followed him and what lawfull gathering then have the Reformed Churches For your marginall note of Moses David Solomon about setling Religion by Gods own direction herein you come home to that I said before alledged against your unlimited law But in that you now restraine by their example all Church-government to the Civil Magistrates you must make it out by holding close to the rule that is To settle Religion by Gods own direction as you here confesse and not to elect erect a forme of Religion and Church-government such as they shall conceive sutable c. as before you told us And Moses David Solomon were all types of Christ who put an end to all such And while you there exclude the Priests from having any thing to doe in Reforming or advising What will the Assembly say to you But they may advise you will say But the Priests might do nothing but according to Gods prescript law no more then Moses David Solomon And if the Priests as you say had no ruling votes then by this reckoning what votes do you allow the Assembly-men in their mixt Committees with the members of Parliament or in the Assembly it selfe Reconcile these I pray you The tenth Interrogatory This Interrogatory questions or rather as all the rest concludes that that Text Mat. 18. 15 16 17. is not meant of any Ecclesiasticall censure as of Excommunication but onely of the civill Court of Justice Brother if you did speake hereas a Divine and not meerly as a lawyer you would not have against the judgment of most learned Divines ancient and modern and not Papists c. so interpreted this place And what speak I of Divines The Text it selfe is its own clearest Interpreter For it is immediatly added v. 18. Verily I say unto you whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall bee loosed in heaven Which is without controversie spoken of Church-censure or of the power of the Keyes in exercising Church-discipline as that Matth. 16. 19 is spoken of doctrine as the learned Calvin well observeth So as this very context cleareth the former to bee meant of Church-censure as it was among the Jewes You alledge on the contrary that learned Lawyer whom wee all honour for his learning Good brother I could wish that all this zeale of yours against Independents might not arise from any jealousie as if Church-censures should prejudicate or trench upon your pleadings at the Barre of civill justice Farre be it that we should have our motion beyond our own Spheare Content your self with your own Orb and we shall confine our selves to ours I dare warrant you Again to what purpose do you urge this interpretation of this Text against us Do not all the Presbyterians expound it so And if this Text which is made the great pillar of Presbyterian excommunication be taken off you leave no more to a Classis then we scil. to consult and advise And with this foot you have dashed all the milk you gave them The eleventh Interrogatory This Interrogatory is to perswadeus that in that Assembly or Evangelicall Synod as you call it Acts 15. the Apostles voted not as they were Apostles infallibly guided by the holy Ghost but rather as they were in their ordinary capacitie as Elders and chiefe members of it Whereupon producing your six reasons for it you peremptorily conclude that this is an undeniable Scripture-authority for the lawfulnesse use of Parliaments Councels Synods under the Gospel upon all like necessary occasions and for their power to determine controversies of Religion to make Canons in things necessary for the Churches peace and concernment maugre all evasions exceptions of Independents to elude it But let us examine your six reasons why the Apostles sate not as Apostles but as ordinary Elders c. Where first we lay this ground for the contrary scil. that they sate as Apostles because not ordinary Elders as Elders can say It seemed good to the holy Ghost and to us But the Apostles as Apostles might say so because in any doctrinall point they had the promise of the Spirit to bee led into all truth as upon whom the Church was to bee built Eph. 2. 20. Secondly if they sate as ordinary Elders then their decrees did no further bind then as they might appeare to agree with Scripture otherwise Elders as Elders may bind the conscience let the decree bee

And so your Argument by crossing shins with it selfe falleth to ground Again your Presbyteriall government hath neither best nor any sufficient warrant as wee judge in the New Testament no nor any warrant at all in Gods word But the true forme of Church-government hath both sufficient and without comparison best warrant in the Scripture And in truth whereas you oppose presbyteriall and Independent as you call it one against the other let me tell you that that which you call Independent is the onely true originall and primitive Presbyteriall Which Presbytery is proper and peculiar to every particular Church of Christ● and is not a Presbytery collective of many Churches by way of jurisdiction one or many over each or of a Nationall Church as you terme it For neither of these can you find either in the New Testamens or in the Old In the old we read of one Church to wit that of the Nation of the Jewes But that whole Church was one intire congregation Act. 7. 38. they had one Church officer over all it is called the Tabernacle of the congregation in the singuler and they all assembled three times in the yeare at Jerusalem in the Temple where they offered Sacrifice and not else where So as the Church was a type of every particular Church of Christ under the New Testament as being both one intire Church and absolute subject to no other form of government but only that of the only Law-giver and Mediator Jesus Christ and no pattern of any such Nationall Church as you would have Every particular Church now consisting of visible Saints is under Christ as the onely Head King Governour Law-giver of it and so is subject to no other jurisdiction then that of Christ his Spirit his Word Were there none other particular Church in the world then one as that of Abrahams Family should it not be a compleat Church untill there were other Churches on whose jurisdiction it should depend though for ordinary Families they cannot have such a number as is requisite to make up a ministeriall body so are bound to unite to others for this end Wee hold communion and consociation of Churches for counsell in doubts and comfort in distresse but we deny any such combination of Churches as whereby the true liberty of every particular Church is taken away And this communion of Churches doth no lesse if not more prevent Heresies Schismes Injustice then your Presbyteriall Nor can you shew reason to the contrary And yet would you have our Churches more perfect then those of the Apostles own planting and gathering as to bee altogether exempted from Heresies Schismes Injustice Did not the Apostle tell the Church of Corinth There must bee Heresies eve among you that they which are approved may be made manifest And could those Primitive Churches after the Apostles preserve themselves from Heresics How soone did the whole world groane and wonder that it was become an Arian And this within the fourth Century after the birth of Christ when the Churches were governed by the Bishops and their Presbyteries And how soone did the Kingdome of the Beast mount up to such a height as it overtopt all the Westerne Churches and brought them under his dominion And for our truly and properly Presbyterian Churches your Independents to which you deny expresse warrant in Scripture the whole New Testament is both an expresse and ample witnesse on our side All those particular Churches which the Apostles planted were all of absolute authority amongst themselves respectively and equall one of the other You can shew unto us no rule or example to the contrary That in Act. 15. is a transcendent and stands alone not to be paralleld and therefore very impertinently objected by many before you as wee shall have occasion to shew afterwards And for pattern in the Primative Churches after the Apostles we are not curious to seeke it in the corrupt current of succeeding ages when we find it the pure fountaine It appeares say the Centurists Cent 1. 7 Tit●de consociatione Eccles. that the Government of Churches in the second hundreth yeare was almost popular every Church had equall power of ordaining or casting out if neede were those Ministers they had ord●ined with other things very materiall in that whole Title as also in the Title de Synodis privatis And for the best reformed Churches if in them we cannot finde that patterne so fully followed as the Scripture holds forth unto us wee cruve leave without prejudice to take it as wee finde it in the Word without the least variation And you may know● in the beginning of Protestant Reformation could they so clearly see in the dawning as wee may now in the meridian if we will but open our eyes The reformed Churches have taken up one or other of them upon the matter the maine things we contend for 1. The Church of Holland receive none to the Table nor have a vote as a member of that Church but such as first give satisfaction to the Elderships and then to the Congregation and 2. have a forme of covenant propounded by them Secondly the French Churches exercise excommunication in their particular congregations though with liberty of appeale And this was the governement of the Primitive Churches in the 2d hundreth yeare as appeares Cent. 2. c. 7. Tit. de Synodis but especially Tit. de consociatione Eccles. So as no long debate neede to be if but Christs word alone may take place without the necessary accommodation of humane Lawes Customes Manners of the people as you doe plead And lastly for appeales in case of Injustice you know brother that if injustice be done in any civill matter if redresse may not be had by the mediation of the Church whereof the parties are members then the Law is open there to appeale for justice And if it be about the Churches censure for some miscarriage of a member towards the Church or any member thereof if the censure bee unjust the party grieved may desire to have his cause heard by some other Churches who may accordingly deale with their Sister-church to require a brotherly account of the whole businesse as is the duty of all the Churches in such cases And if it be in matter of opinion here the appeale lies principally and in the first place to the Scripture as the supreme Judge and if the things be obscure too hard for that Church to resolve by the Scripture then to call in the helpe of other Churches for their best information And in summe brother there is no case can fall out in any Church which hath not as many helpes by a free communion of Churches wherein every Churches peculiar liberties and priviledges are preserved as they ought to be as any you can name to bee in your obligatory combination of Churches wherby the liberty of each Church is by cōmon consent sold over to others by which it ceaseth now to be a free Church

each Congregation I am sure your Congregations admit neither augmentation nor diminution but according to the capacitie of every Parish 2. Within what precincts Christs Churches are not limited either to place or number 3. What set Stipends allowed Sufficient more or lesse 4. When and where Churches should assemble For when at times convenient For where Not necessarily in this or that place 5. Who shall prescribe extraordinary times of fasting or thanksgiving to them upon just occasions If the occasion be the Churches peculiar Interest the Church agrees upon the time But if it be publick concerning the Politick body of the State whereof we are native members in whose weale or woe we sympathize either we keep dayes of our own appointment extraordinary or if the Civill State command and appoint a day we refuse not to observe it 6. Who shall rectifie their Church-Covenants Discipline Censures Government if erroneous or unjust First Each Church useth her best meanes left her of Christ within her selfe Secondly If need require she useth the help of Sister-Churches Thirdly If any other as the Civill State be not satisfied shee * refuseth not to yeeld an account of her actions being required 7. Shew us say you a sufficient satisfactory Commission from Gods Word for all they doe or desire before they gather any Churches Brother Prynne you say you will pump out our thoughts yea it seemes you will exanclate pumpe out every drop that is in us But stay brother you are not yet a Magistrate And 2. wee hope you will not take up againe the Oath ex Officio to pump out all our secrets And 3. Though I have for my part dealt very freely with you as my brother all along yet give me leave to keep a Reserve Done● ad Triarios redieritres untill it come to a dead lift in case we shall be brought before * Princes and Rulers to give an account of what we doe or desire And 4. you put us upon too unreasonable a taske to satisfie you in all that we DOE or DESIRE First make your particular exceptions and demands for this or that and then we shall know the better how to shape you an Answer as you see we have here done What are all your books of Law cases all the Volumes of the Casuists to the resolution upon general grounds of incident matters which could not be ruled till they happened and yet the Government of States is one and the doctrine of the Scripture in all generally necessary poynts cleare And we desire you not too too much to grow upon us when you see we are so coming and free The fourth Interrogatory This is much like the next before For that was about Ministers power to gather Churches this concerning the peoples power in uniting themselves in a Church choosing their Minister erecting such a Government as they conceive most sutable to the Scripture And so all manner of hereticks may set up Churches and all manner of heresies sects be brought in I answer as before A Church is a Citie of God which by her Charter becomes a Citie being called of God and by the same Charter the Scripture chuseth her own Officers and sets up no other government but what her Charter prescribes If any other doe otherwise and doe pervert the Scripture it is not to be imputed to the Church of Christ Her liberties are no law for others licentiousnesse It was so in the Apostles times and the next ages after The true Churches liberties were no true cause of so many heresies no more then the Christians of old were the cause of the calamities of the Citie or Empire of Rome because Nero and other Tyrants falsly charged them and as injuriously dealt with them Nor may we cast away the priviledges of Christians because others abuse them Yea whether we use our priviledges or no errours and heresies will be The Apostles and Apostolick Churches could neither keep nor cast them out as is shewed before But brother where you say that if this liberty of setting up an Independent Church-government be admitted then by the selfe-same reason they must have a like libertie to elect erect what Civil forme of government they please to set up a new Independent Republick Kingdome c. By the selfe-same reason Surely by no reason at all Shew us a reason hereof and take all And you know that Republicks Kingdomes are Independent though not of Churches electing erecting It is unsatisfiable injury and extreame irrationality thus to argue for hath Christ given the same command to his people as such who are not of this world nor their Kingdome as he hath done to them in spirituals which he commands them to practise whosoever forbids 2. They set up no forme but take that which is prescribed which God hath not done in civill government but left it free 1 Pet. 2 Rom. 13. The fifth Interrogatory Herein you make a comparison between Presbyteriall and Independent Churches Why not that as well as this And if this why doe we not shew solid proofe of it I answer We desire to enjoy ours without making comparison with yours For proofe we have shewed sufficient Then to a second Quere the answer is not the Minister alone nor the Congregation alone but both together admit members and set up Christs Government not their own And how ever you make us a Conventicle consisting of inconsiderable ignorant members I beleeve brother Prynne when you shall have any thing to doe with the most contemptible of such Conventicles as you esteeme us you will not altogether find us such as you are pleased to terme us And for Nationall Parliaments States wee honour them with whatsoever honour is due unto them as Gods * Word commandeth us And for a Nationall Councell as this is called to advise not to be peremptory Judges in the matters of God over our consciences wee detract not their due honour too as they are pious and learned men 2. Where you would have them have the same power in a Parliament and Synod that they have in a Church if they be members it is answered that all power is restrained to its own sphere and place so that we may have a greater power in another kind and yet not that as no Parliament man hath the power of a Master of a family in the Parliament though he have a greater The sixth Interrogatory This Interrogatory hath sundry branches the answer whereunto respectively will intimate what they be 1. Wee say as before None of our Ministers doe by any usurped authoritie gather Churches 2. We cannot conceive that any law of the Land is against the setting up of Christs kingdome in the hearts of his people and in those Congregations called and gathered by the voyce of his Word Nor doth the Ministery of Christs word more in this then it did by John Baptist Christ himselfe and his Apostles when they called Christian Congregations out of the Jewes Nationall Church