Selected quad for the lemma: grace_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
grace_n	faith_n	justify_v	sanctification_n	2,387	5	10.2932	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A45823	A contention for truth: or, an impartial account, of two several disputations The one being on Munday, the 12th. of Feb. And the other on Munday, the 26. of the same month, in the year 1671. Between Mr. Danson of the one party, and Mr. Ives on the other, upon this question (viz) whether the doctrine of some true believers, falling away totally and finally from grace, be true or no? Published to prevent mistakes, and false reports, concerning the said conferences. By a lover of truth and peace.	Ives, Jeremiah, fl. 1653-1674.	1672 (1672)	Wing I1095A; ESTC R222598	83,987	220

one can witness that was there present Vale AN APPENDIX Reader THat many Godly and Righteous Men in these late times have held and believed That it is impossible for any True believer to cease to be such and fall away and perish I do not deny I am also sensible that their perswasion in this matter is grounded as they think either upon Gods Election the Scripture Promises and Christ's Prayers or else upon the absurd consequences that follow upon the contrary opinion Now as touching Gods Election I shall freely grant and it may easily be affented too that those whom God hath from the beginning chose to Salvation through the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief of the truth shall never finally fall away and perish according to 2 Thes 2.13 but though this be granted yet it doth not follow from hence that no True believer or that none who sincerely believe can finally fall away and in this case let Mr. Baxter who in this point discents from me speak for me I dare not saith he say I am certain that all who do sincerely believe and are justified are Elected to Salvation and shall never finally fall away It is my opinion saith he but I dare not put it in my Creed c. I know saith he how learned and godly Men do differ from me and deny the certainty of perseverance I know how many sad and shaking examples these times have afforded and therefore I am not certain properly strictly certain of my perseverance and so not fully strictly certain of my Salvation See Mr. Baxter's directions page 16. And in the end of his Appology I am not saith he So certain of this doctrine of perseverance as I am that Christ is the Son of God and the Redeemer of the World I never saith he found the doctrine of certain perseverance in any Creed of the Church I hope none dare say that all the Lutherans Arminians and Anabaptists who are otherwise minded are no Christians much less in the first Ages of the Christian Church which thought otherwise And again in his account of his thoughts touching perseverance Page 5. he saith That it was the judgment of St. Augustin that though the Elect should never fall away finally yet he also believed and was perswaded that some that were effectually called regenerated and justified might fall away and perish And further in the same page he saith That because some are so immodest as to question whether this was St. Augustin's opinion I add further that I did ask the Reverend Bishop Usher in the hearing of Dr. Kendal whether this was not plainly the judgment of Augustin and he answered undoubtedly it was and further saith he Bishop Usher was as likely to know as any man I am capable of consulting with and if any be still in doubt the passages following which are transcribed out of St. Augustine may end his doubts August de bono persever Capt. 8. 9 ex duobus autem piis cur huic donetur perseverantia usque in finem illi autem non donetur instructabil●ora sunt judicia dei That of two both being GODLY perseverance unto the end should be given to the one and NOT GIVEN VNTO THE OTHER belongs to the unsearchable judgments of God Again Propter hoc Apostolus com dixisfet c. For this cause the Apostle when be had said We know that all things work together for good to those that love God knowing that some LOVE GOD WHO DO NOT PERSEVERE in this good Mr. Baxter in the last forecited book of perseverance tells us page 16. That though he presumes in this point to discent from Augustin and the COMMON judgment of the teachers of that and MANY former and later ages yet saith he I find my self obliged by the reverence of such contradicting Authority and forced also by the consciousness of my Ignorance to suspect my own understanding and dissent with modesty honourring the contrary minded and being willing to receive any further evidence c. and page 17. I dare not say that I have attained to a certainty in understanding this point c all the texts of Scripture that concern it better then St. Augustin and the common judgment of the Church for so many ages and therefore I dare not say that I have attained to a certainty that all the justified shall persevere and further in the same page that can be no very easie point which ALL or ALMOST ALL THE CHURCH FOR SO MANY AGES and which not only most of the Christians of the World but also so many Nations of Protestants themselves do erre in and which the choicest Men for learning and diligence and those that were the leaders in defending the grace of God against Pelagius as Augustin and others and besides abundance of Protestant Divines could never attain the understanding of but resisted the contrary opinion meaning that it was possible for any True believer to fall away findly As error yea when they were and are as holy as we and so as like to have divine Illumination all this being in the case it seemeth to be high self-conceited arrogancy for such a one as I to profess such a point to be so evident and easie and to imagine that ALL THE MOST HOLY and JUDICIOUS writers for so MANY AGES and SO MANY at this day are so far below me in the understanding the Scriptures and that even in points which they had so much occasion to search into and so many and great advantages to understand I do not saith he I dare not presume of this thus far and much farther to the same purpose the learned though in this point the dissenting Mr. Baxter in his book of the Sain●s Perseverance so that not only from Scripture but from the general consent of all Antiquity the docrin of the possibility of some True believers falling from Grace finally may consist with an election of Grace and Gods choosing men from the beginning through the sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth from whence we may see that though there is a number that shall certainly be saved according to an election of Grace yet there may also be many that may have true justifying Faith that may fall away and perish who never were in this number of Elect. So that this doctrine of the possibility of some True believers fahing away finally no way interfers with the doctrin of Election not do those Scriptures that speak concerning Election so much as call the truth of this doctrin in question The other ground of the impossibility of any True believers falling away finally is a mistake of Scripture promises here let me give notice of two kinds of promises in the Scripture about this matter First such as though they seem to be absolute yet they have conditions implyed in them Secondly of such Scriptures as promise the performance of those conditions the first fort are as follows Mat. 19 18. You that

the sence was true that you first gave in answer to this argument upon which we have been arguing so long or it was not true if it was true why do you not keep to it if it was false why do you give it in for an interpretation For first You answered that Paul laboured to prevent the coming to pass of that which he knew was impossible to come to pass which was his final Apostacy And now you substitute a contrary interpretation viz that Paul laboured to prevent the losing that esteem and reputation which he had among Christians If this Latter be the sense then he laboured to prevent the coming to pass of nothing but what was possible to come to pass which is contrary to the first interpretation Therefore pray which was the true sense the latter or the former Mr. Danson The Latter Mr. Ives Why did you give us the former then I shall therefore desist and argue no further But here the Reader may take notice that in Mr. Dansons giving this last answer viz that Paul laboured to prevent his doing those things that might make him lose the esteem and approbation he formerly had he justifies my Major proposition in words at length for who ever looks back shall find it runs thus pag 17. that which Paul uses all diligence and labour to prevent was not impossible to come to pass Mr. Danson once and again denied this major proposition and now he confesseth it in this latter interpretation for he saith that which he laboured to prevent the coming to pass of was nothing but what was possible to come to pass viz the approbation and esteem he formerly had See Page 17. and compare it with Page 18. After Mr. Ives bad desisted Arguing Mr. Danson offered to be opponant and desired Mr. Ives to spend some time in Responding to some Arguments he had to urge but Mr Ives told him that he was weary but however as farr as his strength and time would permit he would endeavour to answer him hereupon Mr. Danson Replied he was weary also and thereupon they promised each other to agree upon some other time This was the whole of the first days oonference An Account of the Second days Disputation which was on the 26th of Feb. at which Dispute Mr. Danson was Opponent and Mr. Ives Respondent Mr. Danson THE question that is now to be debated is whether or no some True believers may fall away totally and finally from Grace you stated it so the last time Did you not Mr. Ives I Sir Mr. Danson Now because the last time so far as I was able to apprehend there was onely two arguments that was urged by this Gentleman that had any thing of wait I shall therefore in the first place urge something by way of retortion upon him from his own arguments Mr. Ives Pray tell me whether you are now a responding to my arguments or whether you are arguing as an Opponent Mr. Danson I am now Opponent Mr. Ives You may urge them argument wise and then Sir the question is this whether it be impossible for any true believer to fall away totally and finally from grace And you may remember that we might not put any deceivable termes upon each other by Impossible we understood the Word in opposition to such as either have may might or can fall away and then with respect to true believers we understood such as had true faith in opposition to hypocrites or such as whatsoever Truth they may believe do not believe the Articles of the Christian Religion or of the Christian Faith We also understood by falling away totally wholly to renounce the Christian Faith and by Finally so to depart from the Faith as at last to perish Eternally and by the grace of God we meant the love and favour of God that men might fall away from it and perish Mr. Danson No Sir I do not mean so Mr. Ives What did we mean by falling away and be damn'd which was the sense of my arguments the last day Mr. Danson There is no such term in the question Mr. Ives I But how did we prosecute it the last time what was then the sense of the question Let us not deceive one another Mr. Danson We mean the grace of God in us and not the grace of God without us Mr. Ives Do you believe a man may fall away from the grace and favour of God without him and not from the grace of God within him well then let 's never differ about words when we agree about sense you know I did by my arguments the last time endeavour to prove that true believers might loose the favour of God or else what did I mean when I said Paul might become a reprobate Mr. Danson There was only to my remembrance but two arguments used by you the last time that were of any seeming force the one was in the 1 Cor. 9. ult about the Apostle Paul and this was the issue that you did urge it to that it was altogether needless and unnecessary that Paul should have any caution given him or that he should make use of any caution to prevent that which is impossible as to the event and against that I shall direct my Arguments Mr. Ives I will prevent you a little I am now standing in the place of a respondent and you are oppenent and what ever you argue do it distinctly and do not incumber your dispute with what I said as opponent but make what advantage you can in the prosecution of your Argument of whatever I said then and if you will not do thus I will not answer you My Reason I shall give you is this because it will bring us back again into the place where we were before of my being opponent and you respondent and to what you say as to the Apostle Paul you may remember you answeredme that Paul and so others might labour to prevent the coming to pass of that which they knew was impossible for to come to pass with respect to the decree of God though not in respect of the nature of the thing Now we argued and discovered that a great while so long that at last you gave an answer that was directly contrary to your first answer that you stood so long upon Mr. Danson I did not Mr. Ives Sir you told me that Paul might labour to prevent his being a reprobate or cast-away that is as you at last interpreted the word a man that might not be approved that is to say in the judgment of Christian Charity then Sir I told you he laboured to prevent nothing but what might come to pass and then I asked which of these senses was the true sense of the Text and you answered the Latter and then I told you you had spent half an hour and more to no purpose about the former sense if the Latter which was contrary to it was the true sense Mr. Danson You tell part

Therefore if I could not shew you an instance of any bodys falling away will it follow that it is impossible for any to fall away I gave you arguments the last day from the nature of the thing that they might fall away and therefore if I could not give you an instance of any that did so fall your Argument is not therefore proved it is possible for a man to Steal and Lye Now what if I could never prove that ever any man did Steal or Lye doth this prove it is impossible for a man to Steal and Lye But Sir I offer this fair proposition to you that I will dispute my Arguments over again with you when you please the very same I urged the last day and provide the best answers you can Mr. Danson I retort your own arguments upon you Mr. Ives You do not understand them will you please to argue and prove that no True believer can fall away or otherwise prove the major proposition last denyed Mr Ives I will prove against your examples that those in the 2 Pet. 2.20 last compared together were Dogs and Swine whilest they escaped the pollutions of this world Mr. Ives I am ashamed of you doth that conclude the Question I challenge any Schollar here whether this concludes the question therefore conclude the question or I will not answer you Besides the Texts Mr. Ives insisted upon were brought to prove that True believers might fall away and not by way of example that any did fall away as any may see that Reflects upon the former discourse Here one Mr. Fowler a Minister interposes The proposition saith he denyed is that it is impossible for True believers to fall away Mr. Danson undertakes to prove by Retortion And the Retortion of an Argument is very good upon the head of an Adversary and there is the same reason of the perseverance of all believers as there is of some and therefore if in the 2 Pet. 2. Heb. 6.5 Nor no other part of Scripture there be no instances of any True believers that fell away Ergo no Tue believer can fall away Mr. Ives answers Mr. Fowler Sir I hope you will not say it as your own opinion but if you do it is more then you can prove but if Mr. Danson pleases I will in a sober way run over the disquisition of those Arguments with you and I promise you you shall have them all word for word But now as I did the last time endeavour as well as I could I will not say Infallibly well but according to my poor mean mechanick abilities endeavour to prove that some True believers may fall away and now Mr. Danson would go upon my Legs and let him if he can if he doth what he is expected to prove by some Argument or other that it is impossible for any True believer to fall away totally and finally Mr. Fowler He may retort your own Argnments Mr. Ives Yea that is sit for a respondent but now he is opponent and is to prove and not to answer Let him bring my Arguments in if he please I care not so he concludes the Question for I confess my Arguments retorted upon my self are good Arguments ad hominem but then he must conclude the Question I appeal to Mr. Fowler whom I know is able to judge Mr. Fowler an Argument ad hominem is a good Argument I confess But must he not conclude the Question by that medium Mr. Fowler Yes he must he must Mr. Ives Very well I thank you Mr Fowler Here Mr. Fowler offers to interpose Mr. Ives I will not allow it it is not fair that I should dispute with two at once Mr. Danson will you prove that it is impossible for any True believers to fall away and conclude it for you ought as Mr. Fowler faith to conclude Ergo It is impossible for any True believer to fall away totally and finally and then Argue ad hominem as well as you can Mr. Danson If there be no example of any True believers falling away totally and finally from Grace then no True believers can fall away totally and finally from grace But there is no example of any True believer falling away totally and finally from Grace Ergo No True believer can fall away totally and finally from Grace Mr. Ives I deny the major as I said before I only remember you that Mr. Danson the last time was against hypothetical syllogisms and now he uses nothing else Mr. Danson You say false I only told you when they could not be put into Categorical Mr. Ives Always the major of a Hypothetical fylogism consists of two parts which is as much as to say an Antecedent and a Consequent an Hypothesis supposed and an Inferrence inferred upon it and it is taken for granted that the Antecedent and the Consequent may be both true or both false both disjunctively true and conjunctively false and therefore I do deny the Consequence It doth not follow that if there be no example of True believers falling away that therefore none can fall away for there may be no examples for many things and yet the things may be possible for to be done I can give you many Instances Mr. Danson If there be the like reason for the perseverance or not falling away of all True believers as there is of some then my former consequence is true But there is the like reason for the perseverance or not falling away of all Tue believers as there is of some Ergo Mr. Ives I deny the major the consequence doth not follow that if there be the like reason for the falling away of all as there is for the falling away of some that then it follows that if there be no example of any True believers falling away that no True believer can fall away for that must be the conclusion of your Argument to prove the consequence of the major denyed in the former sylogism Mr. Danson What can be more evident Mr. Ives Is that a proof Mr. Danson I am to prove that there is the like reason that is the minor Mr. Ives You are to prove the consequence of the major that if there be the like reason that then the former consequence is true and for you to say evident it is that is no proof but Begging the Question pray where is it evident Mr. Danson Those things that have the like reason must have the same consequence Mr. Ives You do not conclude the ting denied I am ashamed of it Mr. Danson That is the thing I proposed that I would deal with you upon in retorting you own arguments Mr. Ives What back again Mr. Fowler hath given it against you for he said you may take what advantage you can from my arguments but then you ought to conclude the question Ergo No True believer can fall away totally and finally Mr. Fowler here interposes Mr. Ives Nay pray Sir forbear you know Mr. Fowler it is not fair

shall find Mercy this man confesseth his sin unto God and forsaketh it and therefore he looks for mercy BUT THIS IS NOT THE MANNER OF GODS PEOPLE No marvail they cannot perish if they have a way to salvation without either confessing or forsaking sin but from such people of God whose manner is neither to confess nor forsake their sins in order to salvation or finding mercy this shall be my Letany Libera nos Domine Another like this we have in Mr. Bridges's Book entituled The sinfulness of Sin pag. 34. Humble your selves for your sins saith he though they be never so small but do not question your condition though your sins are NEVER SO GREAT I do not saith he speak this to those that are unconverted for they have cause to question their condition for every sin though never so small but being converted I say humble your selves for your sins though never so small but never question thy condition for ANY SIN THOUGH NEVER SO GREAT I do not wonder that men have run into Ranterism and all the abominations of the Gnosticks of old under the pretence of their being the darlings of God and favourites of the Court of Heaven having fancied they have absolue promises of Salvation and therefore have no reason to question their condition or fear their Damnation though their sins be never so great No marvail Mr. Danson in the dispute told us that True believers such as Mr. Bridges Calls onverts cannot sin as other men do for other men must question their condition though their sins be never so small as Mr. Bridges tells us but True believers and Converts must by no means question their condition though their sins be never so great Indeed if this be true I must needs confess that believers cannot sin as others do for others must fear damnation for the least sin but believers may sin cum privelegio and not fear damnation for the grossest and greatest sins though they should be Drunkards or Incestuous persons Murderers Adulterers or denyers of Jesus Christ in times of persecution to this agrees the forecited Doctor Crisp in his Sermon of Christ is the way page 36. Give me saith he a believer that hath truly set his footing upon Christ he blasphemes Christ that dares serve a writ of damnation upon that person Suppose a believer be overtaken in a gross sin Suppose it be Murder or Adultery denying of Christ or Blasphemy It is a desperate thing in any man so much as to serve a writ of Damnation upon a beliver and he doubles it with an ingemination I say unto thee whoevor thou art that art ready to charge Damnation upon thy self when thou art overtaken thou dost the greatest injury to the Lord Jesus that can be for in so doing thou overthrowest the fulness of the grace of Christ It seems then that when men are believers and have once the priviledges to set their foot upon Christ as the Doctor phrases it they may afterwards trample upon him and offer him the greats est indignities imaginable and not fear damnation from him Mr. Bridges and Doctor Crisp make one heart and soul at this turn for Mr. Bridges saith they must not QUESTION their condition though their sins be NEVER SO GREAT and the Doctor saith they do the greatest dishonour to Christ imaginable if they charge Damnation upon themselves though they should be overtaken with gross sins To this agrees the Learned Doctor Owen in his Sermon before the Parliament at Westminst Feb. 28. 1647. It is not saith he the greatness of thy sin nor thy continuance in thy sin nor thy back-sliding into sin that is the true cause of thy staggering but solely from thy unbelief This agrees with Mr. Bridges and Doctor Crisp that if they be believers and once set their footing upon Christ they need not stagger for the greatness of their sins nor their continuance in them No by no means after they have set their foot upon Christ they may be as bold as they please with him and sin at what rate and to what degree their lusts shall at any time propence them this is but the sense sum and substance of the forecited doctrines To all this may be added some doctrins laid down in a Treatise of Justification published by Mr. Eyres with Doctor Owen's Commendatory Epistle see Chap. 12. He lays down this doctrine That in the new Covenant there is no condition required to intitle us to the blessings of it and thence he draws this Corrollary that Faith is not a condition of the new Covenant he further saith That the Elect Corinthians that were Idolaters Fornicators Thieves Covetous Drunkards Revilers and Extortioners had no more right to Salvation after their believing then they had before Then it seems they had a right to Heaven if they had died in this condition and never believed for Faith he says is no condition of the Covenant that is the doctrin and that men in the height of their impieties and excess of wickedness have if Elected as much right to Heaven then as when converted that is the application so that if they can set foot upon Christ by Election they may be saved though they dye unbelievers for Faith he saith is no condition of it Somewhat to this purpose Mr. Edward Bagshaw dogmatizeth in his book Intituled The Doctrine of free Grace in pardoning Sin without conditions page 25. he explains himself what he means by free Grace By free here I do not mean free as excluding Christ but as excluding our selves or any thing we can do as a cause procuring or as a condition qualifying us for the receiving of it Lord Whether will these opinions lead us or rather whether will they not lead us sometimes they tell us if we are believers we need not question our condition though our sins are never so great Now we are told that if we are Elected we are well enough for Faith is no condition of the covenant of Grace and that we are no nearer Salvation after we believe then we were before for that is the sense for saith he The Elect Corinthians had no more right to Heaven after their believing then they had while they were unbelievers Whoremongers and Adulterers Thus they make even our Faith of none effect upon which words the learned and sober Mr. Woodbridge in his answer to Mr. Eyres saith he never read the like in any writings of God or man page 193. What! that some men saith Mr Woodbridge that live in Adulteries Idolatries Blasphemies Murders and all manner of ungodlyness yet have as much right to Heaven as the most Faithful Humble Mortified Christian or Apostle the height of whose blessedness it is that they have RIGHT to enter into the Kingdom of God Rev. 22.14 Blessed are they that DO HIS COMMANDMENTS that THEY MAY HAVE RIGHT to the Tree of Life for without are Dogs and Whoremongers and Idolaters and whosoever loveth and maketh a Lye But if this blessedness