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A01735 A short reply vnto the last printed books of Henry Barrow and Iohn Greenwood, the chiefe ringleaders of our Donatists in England VVherein is layd open their grosse ignorance, and foule errors: vpon which their whole building is founded. By George Gyfford, minister of Gods holy worde, in Maldon. Gifford, George, d. 1620. 1591 (1591) STC 11868; ESTC S118836 80,934 106

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by true repentance Thus farre be your wordes Master Barrow Alas poore creatures how much is your siely blindnes to bee pitied that can set down things so directly contrary at the same instant yet espieit not for you say that Circumcision in their Apostasie was no true Sacrament vnto them neither sealed the Lordes couenant vnto them in that estate And yet you say it was true Circumcision concerning the outward cutting Likewise you say that Baptisme in the poperie cannot bee saide a true Sacrament or seale of Gods couenant vnto them And yet concerning the outward washing ye confesse it true Baptisme Is not this all one as if a man should say it is the true sacrament and seale of Gods couenant it is no true Sacrament nor seale of Gods couenant I pray you M. Barrow is not the outward washing the whole Baptisme and the whole seale of Gods couenant Was not the outward cutting the whole circumcision and the whole seale of Gods couenant And if the outward washing be the whole Sacrament and the whole seale of Gods couenant as indeede with the word it is for the inward grace is no part of the Sacrament but we may say that this inward grace is the thing represented and sealed by the Sacrament Then when you say concerning the outward washing it is true Baptisme doo you not affirme the whole Sacrament and so the whole seale of Gods couenant to be true But you say it is no true seale vnto them in their Apostasie or it doth not seale Gods Couenant vnto them in that estate but when the abuse thereof is purged away by true repentance What absurde speeches be these can a man deuife more grosse folly the outward true Sacrament is the true seale of Gods couenant euen vnto those which be hypocrites and vtterly voyde of fayth which haue it For if we shall say it is no true Sacrament or no seale of Gods couenant or that it doth not seale Gods couenant but vnto those which haue the inward grace the efficacie and fruite thereof then was it sometimes no true Sacrament which the Apostles themselues did administer because there were some vnto whome they did administer both the holy Baptisme and the Lords Supper which had not the inward grace And if the Sacraments be not the true seales of Gods Couenant euen vnto those which haue no fruite thereby how should the receiuers which are vtterly vnworthie be guiltie of the body and blood of our Lord Also when a man doth receiue Baptisme which is alwayes the seale of Gods couenant and is voyde of fayth and receiueth it at their handes which doo mixe it with sundry additions and corruptions and after commeth vnto true faith he himselfe is purged by his fayth and hath the vse of that seale which hee had before but without fruite we cannot say as you doo but with most wicked and foule absurditie that the Sacrament it selfe was a false Sacrament and now through sayth is purged and became a true Sacrament That which is the Lordes doth stand in it selfe pure and vnde●iled euen when corruptions bee added The Wheat in it self is as pure lying among the Chaffe as when it is purged from the Chaffe The golde and siluer in themselues be as pure when the rust is vpon them as when it is scowred off If a thing in the mixture of corruptions haue not a true being ye cannot by purging bring it to haue a true being And when you say that concerning the outward washing it is true Baptisme ministred in popery which is as much as I haue shewed as to say it is a true sacrament concerning the whole because the outward washing is the whole and therefore all that Iohn the Baptist taketh to himselfe is this I baptize ye with water Doo you not acknowledge a ministrie in popery Will you say it is concerning the outward washing true Baptisme by whomesoeuer it bee done Nay you say where there is no true ministrie there is no true Sacrament Then where there is no part of a true ministrie there is no part of a true Sacrament In your other booke Master Barrow which you tearme a briefe discouerie of the false Church from the 102. page vnto 121. you make a large discourse about this point taking vppon you to bee a stickeler betwéene Master Doctor Some and the Scholler of Oxenford writing against him in defence of Master Penrie There you lay about you with your woodknife vpon both parties Master Doctor Some holding the Baptisme administred in the popery to be true Baptisme alleaging that Master Caluine held so as in déede all the Churches and all the most excellent and worthy lights which God hath raised vp in these last times doo hold the same with sound reasons from the Scripture you scoffingly tearme him a great Clarke and say that in certaine marginal notes added to his booke this inconuenience was moued vnto his further consideration how hee would auoyde the blowe of flat Schisme Also you say he was friendly aduised to spare this deepe diuinitie deriued from Master Caluine and others of this time leaft h●e should open such a gappe to the Papistes as neither the Church of England nor Geneua nor any other that hold this opinion shall euer be able to shut for if it be true Baptisme deliuered in the Church of Rome then will it follow that the Popish priests be true ministers And then may the seale of the couenant be giuen to open Idolaters then dooth Gods couenant of peace belong to the babilonish harlot then hath Christ many bodies or else cannot three so diuers Churches as the Church of Rome the Church of England the Church of Geneua all or any two of them I will not say any one bee true Churches Thē he may be an husband where his wiues rule Infinit other absurdities would then proue lawful And let me adde yet this vnto the rest if the Baptisme of the Church of Rome be a true Sacrament then haue they one true Sacrament and another false Thus you wound the one party that is Master Doctor Some Then touching the Scholler of Oxenford hée is blamed for that he alleageth for his patron Master Doctor Fulke to proue that the Baptisme administred in popery is no true Baptisme And he is set to counteruaile Master Caluin as his equall in all learning Grieuous absurdities you shew in déede which must néeds follow from the opinion of the foresaid Scholler Touching the comparison betwéene Master Fulke and Master Caluine for my part I am not so learned as that I can bring a full measure to measure them iustly withall I know not what might slip from Doctor Fulke in any part of his writings vpon some occasion which may séeme as though he fauored that opiniō but this I know that sundry times crauing his iudgement in that matter he held it to be true Baptisme which hath béen administred in the popery And what a thing is this Master Barrow that
our fasts what is that now to the purpose And so in diuers other things is this the question betweene vs You charge vs with idoll feastes as if wee worshipped Saints and Angels I told you it is a starke lie and so I must affirme our Church vtterly condemning all that most blasphemous doctrine of popery touching the meditation of Saints or Angels here againe you deale but euen as in the former you must not still so boldly slander but proue that the dayes are kept in honour of the Saints and Angels And so for the naming of the Churches I knowe Saint Luke did not in any respect honour Mars and so did not contrarie to that which Dauid professeth saying he would not take the names in his mouth you may see by his example how Dauid is to be vnderstoode not of the very naming but of the naming with some honor for a man may name them either in detestation or as Saint Luke dooth onely to make destinction Then come tithes and oblations here in deede Master Barrow you bid me looke whether this error be not fundamentall being obstinately held and bring for your reason that they which reuiue any part of the ceremoniall lawe are bound to the whole lawe and so are as Paule saith to the Galathians abolished from Christ Truely Master Barrow the more I reade of your writings the more I pittie your blindnes I could not haue beene perswaded that you were so exceeding ignorant taking vpon you to controule all Churches and farre to excell all the most learned deuines neither could it enter into my thought that any would so boldly abuse the holy Scriptures to seduce and subuert the mindes of simple men I doo here also intreate the reader to be atte●tiue a little and to see vpon what foundation you doo builde a great part of your dooings For here to proue the paying of tithes an error fundamentall and vtterly to separate from Christ being obstinately held you alleage the words of Saint Paule Galath 5. I testifie againe vnto euery man which is circūcised that he is deptor to keepe the whole lawe yee are abolished from Christ c. Let me first aske ye then were the fathers which were circumcised in the time of y● law abolished from Christ and fa●●en from grace You will say no for circumcision was a seale of the righteousnes of faith Rom. 4. Then it must needes be graunted that Saint Paule doth not speak here of circumcisiō in the right vse for which God did ordeine it for so it was not cōtrary vnto Christ albeit the retaining of it after Christ come was an error Also let me aske ye further doo you thinke that Saint Paule was contrarie to himselfe when he circumcised Timothie Acts 16. ver 3. Or after that when he would with those which had a vow be purified and offer an oblation according to the lawe Act. 21. 26. will you say that Saint Paule and Timothie became deptors to keepe the whole lawe Or that they were abolished from Christ It is horror to admit any thought that way or once to make doubt of such a matter Neither would Iames and the other Apostles haue suffered or tolerated the Church in Ierusalem in that which dooth abolish from Christ Whereupon it followeth of necessity that Saint Paule here to the Galathians dooth not speake simply of the ceremonie of circumcision but as it was vrged with the doctrine of the false Apostles which was this that circumcision was a necessary part of Gods worship and that men could not bee saued vnles they were circumcised for so did the false Apostles vrge it as ye may see Act. 15. 1. placing righteousnes and the merite of eternalllife in it for against that Saint Paule speaketh here to the Galathians saying as many as are iustified by the lawe are abolished from Christ fallenfrom grace Here is the thing then that the false Apostles did ioyne the law and Christ together for iustification and Saint Paule testifieth and denounceth that he which is circumcised with such a minde as to be iustified in part thereby hée is debtor to kéepe the whole law which is not possible for any flesh and therefore he shall stand vnder the curse Moreouer he is abolished from Christ and fallen from grace because the iustification by grace and the iustification by the law are so contrarie that they cannot be ioyned together he that will holde any thing of the one must forgoe the other This being the thing which Saint Paule speaketh of the Galathians and not the very ceremonies which both he and Timothie did sometime obserue nor yet the error of the Church of Ierusalem which was not to place the worship of God and righteousnesse in them which the holy Apostles would neuer haue borne withall seeing it ouerthroweth the faith of Christ marke well Master Barrowe or if you will be wilfull let others marke how foolishly and yet with what furious terror ye thunder out the abolishing from Chrst for paying tithes and for the obseruation of some ceremonies in which if there be a fault it is so farre from that which the falfe Apostles went about to seduce the Galathians in that it commeth short of the error of the Church of Ierusalem For the Church of England as all men may sée dooth condemne fully and absolutely not onely that doctrine of the false Apostles and of the Church of Rome touching iustification or merite of words but also teacheth the whole law of ceremonies was to cease now Christ being come Cease therefore Master Barrow this foolish rage and labour not to seduce the people deceiuing and being deceiued as the blessed Apostle speaketh Ye obserue dayes and times months and yeares saith Saint Paule to the Galathians I am afraide of ye least I haue laboured among ye in vaine If ye be circumcised Christ shall profit ye nothing The Church of England say you obserueth dayes and times as Easter Whitsonday c. and payethtithes and obserueth other ceremonies therefore Christ can profit yee nothing ye are abolished from Christ ye are fallen from the couenant of grace in as much as ye obstinately holde and continue in them Is it not much to bee lamented that after so many yeares preaching of the Gospell much people should lie open to bee fpoyled by such poore seely stuffe as this and bee led away by such more then sottish ignorance Cannot men sée that the who●e matter lieth in the diuers endes of obseruation The false Apostls the Church in Ierusalem Paul and Timothy doo obserue the selfe same things that is Circumcision and other ceremonies of the lawe The false Apostles are abolished from Christ as they vrge and obserue them The Church of Ierusalem is not abolished from Christ but yet erreth grosely Saint Paul and Timothie sinne not at all thereby What is the reason of this difference but that as ye may see the false Apostles obserued and vrged the ceremonies as meritorious for iustification and