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A41319 An answer to Mr. Thomas Grantham's book, called, A dialogue between the Baptist and the Presbyterian by Martin Finch. Finch, Martin, 1628?-1698. 1691 (1691) Wing F942; ESTC R7436 100,803 186

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maintains the Sovereignty of God that he might do so for his own Glory That this is the Apostle's Scope appears from Ver. 11 12 13. Eor the Children not being yet born neither having done Good or Evil that the Purpose of God according to Election might stand not of Works but of him that calleth it was said unto her The Elder shall serve the Younger As it is written Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated As if the Apostle had said You may see a Type of Election and Reprobation in Jacob and Esau that before they were born and consequently from Eternity God had determined their Eternal Estate for his own Glory as it pleased him Let Men cavil what they please God will be God and do whatever he will Yea but some may say How doth Paul make out this from what was spoken to Rebekah The Elder shall serve the Younger I answer The Apostle knew by the Spirit of God that there was a Mystery in these Words not only that two Nations were to come out of Jacob and Esau but that which was primarily intended was that the Person of Jacob was loved and chosen to Eternal Life and not Esau Yea but how came the Apostle to mention what is written in Malachy concerning Jacob and Esau's Posterity I answer The Apostle brings what is written there by way of Accommodation and Allusion thus That as God made a great Difference as to Jacob's and Esau's Posterities so much more as to Jacob 's and Esau 's Persons Some of Jacob's Posterity were afflicted in Egypt and at other times as well as Esau's and Jacob personally did never get Dominion over Esau as to outward Things but the Apostle sheweth that the Person of Jacob was from Eternity elected of God and not Esau If we cannot see how the Apostle could collect this from that place in Genesis and that in Malachy yet I pray let us reverence and believe the Scriptures and not quarrel with the Pen-men who were infallibly inspired I have heard indeed of an Arminian Preacher that wished that Paul had never writ any thing and especially not Rom. 9. that Chapter will confute all the Arminians in the World Now that the Apostle speaks here of God's Eternal Decree and Purpose concerning Jacob and Esau doth evidently appear by what followeth Is there Vnrighteousness with God That is in not purposing to bestow his Grace upon some Job 36.3 but passing them by the Apostle saith God forbid Surely we should ascribe Righteousness to our Maker Ver. 14. And Ver. 15 16. For he saith to Moses I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy and I will have Compassion on whom I will have Compassion So then it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth but of God that sheweth Mercy As if he had said There is no Unrighteousness with God it is infinite Mercy that he saveth any for he might glorifie his Justice in the Damnation of all for their Sins And that God should shew Mercy to one and not to another who shall dare to question God about this I will do saith God what I will I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy Ver. 17. The ●postle sheweth that God raised up Pharaoh for that very purpose to manifest his own Glory made him a Man a King gave him Power over the Children of Israel left him to the Corruption of his own Heart for the same purpose to manifest his Glory in his Confusion and Destruction If any contend with God about his Soveraignty I pray God give him Repentance here or else they will be confounded before his terrible Majesty hereafter The Apostle goeth on Ver. 18. Therefore he hath Mercy on whom he will have Mercy and whom he will he hardneth Yea but then if all be as God wills as God will have it Ver. 19. Thou wilt say then to me Why doth he yet find fault For who hath resisted his Will The Doctrine of God's Soveraignty cannot go down with unhumbled Men that never were made truly sensible of their own Meanness and Sinfulness and of the Infinite Majesty of God therefore Ver. 20 21. Nay but O Man who art thou that repliest against God That must be challenging and disputing and quarrelling with God Shall the thing formed say unto him that formed it Why hast thou made me thus Hath not the Potter power over his Clay of the same Lump to make one Vessel unto Honour and another unto Dishonour And as he sheweth in the following Verses What if God willing to shew his Wrath and to make his Power known endured with much Long-suffering the Vessels of Wrath fitted to Destruction And that he might make known the Riches of his Glory on the Vessels of Mercy which he had afore prepared unto Glory God is from Everlasting he was infinitely happy in himself that he made Angels and Men was merely from the pleasure of his Will He could have made all the Angels and all the Posterity of Adam Eternal and Immutable Vessels of Honour if so it had pleased him But what if God the great and glorious God who is to be adored and feared of all What if God pleased to make Angels and Men for the Manifestation of his own Glory one way or other Who shall say unto him Why did God make Angels and Men at all of whom so many shall be so miserable that it had been good for them that they had never had a Being But what if the great and glorious God willing to shew his Wrath and holy Justice and to make his Power known did decree to leave some to themselves and to their Sins and to glorifie his Justice upon them Yea but may some say As to the Children of Men they were all left to fall in Adam and are alike by Nature But what if God have afore prepared some to Glory by his Eternal Election and redeems them by the Blood of his Son and calls them in due time by his Grace and Spirit as those whom he hath chosen to be Vessels of Mercy who shall question God for what he doth They that perish perish for Sin the Throne of the Holy God is guiltless for ever They that are saved are saved by the exceeding Riches of his Grace and Kindness towards them through Christ Jesus Thus I have answered the Author's Six Queries he sent me in a Letter Now I come to his Seventh and last Query Qu. 7. Because saith he I preach God's Love to Mankind to be such that he gave his Son to be the Propitiation for the Sins of the whole World this you call Arminianism the Life and Soul of Popery I answer This is utterly false that ever I said so Let him look upon my Letter and see how he hath wronged me in print I wrote to him in my second Letter that Arminianism was the Root of Quakerism and that a good Divine saith that it is the Life and Soul of Popery But as
so as to get Execution against them in Hell seeing they are God's Elect and Christ hath died for them Men know not what they do when they set their Wits on work to deny that God hath set his free and unchangeable Love upon some from Eternity whereby he will certainly and infallibly bring them to Grace here and Eternal Glory hereafter through our Lord Jesus Christ For observe Take away Election and you take away Redemption for Redemption is grounded upon Election Joh. 17.6 Thine they were and thou gavest them me Thine they were by Election and therefore thou gavest them me to redeem and bring to Glory Take away God's Eternal Election of a certain number of Persons to Grace and Glory and you take away Effectual Calling and Conversion For if God of his mere Grace and good Pleasure had not so elected them there had never been any Person effectually called 'T is God alone that doth inwardly and effectually call any so as that they are savingly converted and if he had not freely predestinated and elected them he had never called and converted them Whom he hath predestinated them he hath also called Rom. 8.30 Take away God's Eternal Special and Unchangeable Love to a certain Number that he will set them before his Face for ever and if we were in Heaven we could not be sure to continue there What a Multitude of Angels sinned and were thrust down to Hell It was Election that setled the Angels that see God's Face for ever The Angels that stand are called the Elect Angels 1 Tim. 5.15 God decreed from Eternity to determine and fix their Wills unto himself for ever It is from this Eternal and Unchangeable Love of God in Election that the Angels and Saints in Heaven are upheld in Love and Praise unto God for ever It hath been an old Objection of Arminians and revived by this Author pag. 26. That many have despaired of Mercy and have laid violent hands upon themselves and many he saith in this City He mentions it that they fall into this Despair because they are told Christ died but for a few 1. I answer This Objection useth to be brought too against Election For my part I do not remember that ever I knew any in my whole Life that laid violent hands upon themselves because they heard that Christ did not die for all Adam's Posterity or that they were not elected The truth is those that make away themselves may sometimes get such things into their Thoughts as that they have committed the Sin against the Holy Ghost and that they are not elected and Christ did not die for them But the true cause of their laying violent hands upon themselves is some extraordinary worldly Sorrow which worketh Death in that sense or Excess of Melancholy whereby they are so distracted that they are not themselves 2. As to Despair of Mercy If God give up a Man to Satan and his own Heart how easily may any Man fall into it though he hold Universal Redemption and deny Election For our Saviour saith plainly Matth. 7.14 Few there be that find the strait Gate and narrow Way Yea I will maintain that the Doctrine of Eternal Redemption and of Christ's dying only for the Elect and that the Elect whom Christ died for shall certainly and infallibly be saved is an Antidote against Despair if the Lord please to put in with it And that the denying of Election and holding Universal Redemption is the way to bring those that have a deep Sense of their own Sinfulness and Unworthiness is the way to bring such to utter Despair of Mercy I make it out thus Take a Person that is throughly convinced of Sin that sees and is sensible that he hath a Depth of Sin in his Nature that sees himself vile and abominable by reason of the universal Corruption of his Nature as well as actual Sins more than the Hairs of his Head which cannot be numbred You come to this humbled convinced Person with your Arminian Doctrine and tell him that God did not decree any Person to Salvation from Eternity of mere Grace to give them infallibly both Grace and Glory but that Christ died for all Adam's Posterity Saith the convinced humbled Sinner Shall all be infallibly saved that Christ died for You must tell him according to the tenour of your Doctrine No there were many of them in Hell when he died and never shall be set at liberty from their Everlasting Chains of Darkness Yea you can tell them according to your Doctrine that notwithstanding Christ's Death there might not one Man or Woman in the World have been saved Truly this Doctrine is enough to drive Men into Despair Ay but you can tell them that whosoever believeth shall be saved Ay and so can others tell them as well as you though they hold Election and that Christ died only for the Elect For if God gives Faith that is a certain sign of Election and that Christ died for that Person Well Now let us see what those that hold Election and that Christ died only for the Elect can say in a Ministerial and Doctrinal Way to keep a convinced humbled Sinner from Despair of Mercy I say in a Ministerial Doctrinal Way for it is God alone that can do it inwardly and effectually Now therefore our Doctrine can say to such a convinced humbled Sinner that is ready to despair God hath from Eternity decreed of his mere Grace in Christ to give Grace and Glory to certain Persons and some of these Persons that God intended to make everlasting Monuments of his Free Grace are not only by Nature Children of Wrath as well as others but in time are Monsters in respect of Actual Sin as Manasseh the Thief upon the Cross and Paul for persecuting the Church of God but being elected to Life and Christ dying for them they are converted and saved And who knows but that you are of that number There is a May be that you are an Object of this Special Grace and 't is certain if that you being convinced of Sin do venture and trust in God's free Mercy in Christ you shall be saved All that the Father giveth unto Christ to redeem and save shall come to him and he that cometh unto him he will in no wise cast out And if the humbled Sinner says If I should put my Trust in Christ the Arminian tells me that I may be a Child of God to Day and a Child of the Devil to Morrow Therefore why should I that know what a vile Heart I have ever think of any Hope of Salvation but sink in utter Despair Our Doctrine assures them if the Lord be pleased once to unite them to Christ by a true and lively Faith the Lord will give them from time to time such Influences and Supplies of his Spirit as that they shall be kept in the state of Grace until they come to the state of Glory Therefore let all that are wise
Voice To conclude this Chapter I would have this Author and all that shall read what I have written take notice that I shall not meddle with those few Passages that he quotes out of other Writers for some of his Opinions Indeed he seems as if he would put out another Book with Quotations taken out of Mr. Pierce and others out of the Ancients for some of his Opinions If this Author will trouble the World with more Books to no purpose who can help it He may do it with great ease though it may be he never saw the Books themselves but Mr. Pierce and Mr. J. G. will furnish him with Quotations out of the Greek and Latin Fathers to his hand But I shall not I say meddle with any Quotations of that nature for these Reasons Because 1. That before Pelagius broached his Errours the Fathers did not speak so distinctly and warily about the Points of Grace 2. That this way of deciding Controversies is endless As we see when our Protestant Divines took that way with the Papists we took the meaning of certain Passages one way and they another A learned Episcopal Divine and a Professor of Divinity in Cambridge long since said very well The Fathers in some things are for the Papists against us in some things they are for us against the Papists and in some things they differ both from the Papists and us But because this makes Controversies endless and casts a Mist before the Eyes of the Common People a learned Man amongst the Papists gives this Advice to those that have to do with Protestants Get them saith he out of their Castle of the Scriptures into the large Field of the Fathers And then he made account they could do well enough with them 3. That it is Scripture one Scripture compared with another that must decide Controversies As one of the Ancients said I would hear Thus saith the Lord. It is not what learned and Godly Men say but what the Scripture saith being rightly understood and one place thereof compared with another that must decide Controversies And there are certain Rules agreeing with the whole scope of Holy Writ that must be attended to as that no Scripture must be interpreted so as in the least to reflect upon the Soveraignty Immutability and Omnipotency of God No Scripture must be so interpreted as to disparage and dishonour that perfect and eternal Redemption that Christ God-Man hath obtained for us as if he died in vain for any for whose Sins he made his Soul an Offering No Scripture must be so interpreted as to puff up proud Man with a Conceit that he doth merit his Salvation when others perish by his Towardliness and Care for himself in improving his Talent better than others but that all our good Inclinations every good Thought and all holy Desires are freely given us of God It is he that worketh in us to will and to do and that not for any Worthiness and Towardliness in us above others but of his own good Pleasure of his free Mercy in Christ It is by Grace we are saved wholly by Grace from first to last Election was of mere Grace our Redemption was of mere Grace our Conversion of mere Grace all is from special discriminating distinguishing Grace We have not the least thing to glory in as if we had made our selves to differ from those that perish but we must wonder here and to all Eternity in Heaven that we should find Grace in the sight of the Lord. CHAP IX An Answer to the Author's Queries at the End of his Book THis Author did send me a Letter containing Six Queries now he hath added a Seventh and hath styled me Preacher to the independents which he did not in the Letter which he sent to me As for the Title of Independents we own it not we are Dependents upon God his Word and upon other Churches for Help and Brotherly Advice and Counsel in the Lord But we desire to keep our selves independent upon this Author or any other that shall pretend to have any spiritual Jurisdiction over us for we hold that there are no Churches of Christ's Institution under the New Testament but particular Congregations and that those particular Congregations have not power over one another but ought to be helpful and assisting one to another as the Matter shall require Independent is too high a Title for any Saints on Earth or in Heaven yea it is too high a Title for the holy Angels it is only fit for the Almighty and Everlasting God And I heartily wish that this Author would but acknowledge God to be Independent Absolute and Vncontrollable and then he would never write such a Book as he hath Arminianism is a Quarrelling with God about his Independency and Soveraignty in his Decrees and Dispensations as if God were not Independent Absolute and Uncontrollable but must be and must do as Men shall enjoyn him his Way Job 36.23 If this Author saw fit to publish his profound Queries it had been but common Honesty to have published also mine Answer for I sent him an Answer in a few Days and had another Letter from him which I also answered And out of that second Letter of mine he takes occasion for his Seventh Query It was well that I kept a Copy of my Letters A true Copy of my Answer to Mr. Grantham when he sent me his queries SIR INstead of Answering directly to your Quarrellings I do out of true Love to you beseech you in the Fear of God to consider of these following Particulars that may give you more Light into those Points about Election Redemption and Conversion 1. Consider the Infinite and Incomprehensible Majesty of God and the Inconsiderableness of all the Children of Men the Grashoppers and Worms of the Earth Isa 40.15 17 22. This may prepare our Hearts to think of his Decrees and Dispensations to the Children of Men with an holy Fear and Trembling 2. Consider that God hath made all things for himself for the Manifestation of his own Glory one way or other for the Glory of his Mercy or for the Glory of his Justice This was God's End Prov. 16.4 Rom. 11.36 Rev. 4.11 3. Consider that God hath an absolute Soveraignty an absolute Lordship and Dominion over the Children of Men to do with them as he pleaseth Isa 46.10 Exod. 33.19 Rom. 9.15 16 17 18. 4. Consider that none of us hold that God punisheth any but for Sin and that all having Sinned and come short of the glory of God he might have spared none of the Children of Men and his Throne have been guiltless from our Blood for ever Rom. 3.19 23. 5.12 5. Consider that the exceeding Riches of God's Grace is to be adored for ever that God should Predestinate any of the Children of Men to the Adoption of Children by Jesus Christ give him to Redeem them and his Spirit to Sanctifie them Ephes 1.4 5 6 7. 1 Pet 1.3 6. Consider