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A00759 A defence of the liturgie of the Church of England, or, Booke of common prayer In a dialogue betweene Nouatus and Irenæus. By Ambrose Fisher, sometimes of Trinitie Colledge in Cambridge. Fisher, Ambrose, d. 1617.; Grant, John, fl. 1630. 1630 (1630) STC 10885; ESTC S122214 157,602 344

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to shew that the People might say after the Minister not that they might answer him The reason and end whereof I cannot conceiue I. The end thereof First is to ease the Priest Secondly to raise vp in the People memory attention and zeale the first to prepare the minde the second to make it concurre with the Priest The third to apply the Publique sayings to each priuate mans vse N. If a good intention might make a good action the money changers in the Temple might be iustified which helped the people to the money of the Sanctuary but where is the warrant of your practice I. Our warrant is drawne from proportion As the Priest would not suffer Dauid and his followers to taste of the holy bread vnlesse they had beene seperate from women by analogie to Gods Commandements vpon Mount Sinai So wee cause the People to answer 1. Sam. 21. 4. Exod. 19. 15. the Priest by a proportionable reference to the practise of Miriam and Anna. Againe seeing diuers of the Psalmes are prayers And Exod. 15. 20 21 Luke 2. 38. Consider the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 publique psalmodie is approued by all men of tempered wits Wee know not why the peoples Responsals or answers in praier should be reiected N. There is no lesse errour in the matter then in the persons The first fault of the matter is their vsing of Gloria Patri which is but an human inuention I. Were it so yet were it tolerable as we shewed when wee spake of Set Prayer But true it is that Athanasius a man inuented it and the whole Church approued it which as we thinke had the Spirit of God N. That whose first vse is decayed ought to be abolished but the vse of Gloria Patri is now decayed which was to detest Arrians and Macedonians denying the God-head of Christ and of the Holy Ghost now therefore it is to bee abrogated I. First the Maior is vntrue For though the first vse of the Arke were to preserue Noah with his Family yet Moses made an Arke for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an Arke to preserue things aliue Gen. 6. 14. whence Thebes was called by the houses thereof built of Cadmus ships 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an Arke to keepe things without life Exod. 25. 10. another vse And though the first vse of Manna were to feed the people yet it was reserued in the Golden Pot many hundred yeares The like is to bee said of the Brazen Serpent which though it healed not them that looked on it yet was it kept till the dayes of Ezekias Againe your Minor is weake For at this day we know by a certaine migration of soules or art of Endor sundry both Arrians and Samosatenians and Tritheites Turkes and Iewes which doe no lesse impugne the Trinitie then did the Old Heretiques Besides the Grecians denying the Holy Ghost to proceed from the Sonne denie withall in our opinion the Sonne 's equalitie with the Father which seemeth to bee acknowledged by this Gloria Patri Are there not amongst vs many Familists which are said to disclaime the God-head of the Holy Ghost Are there not many stiffe-necked Atheists which all in their liues some in plaine words denie the Glorie Trinitie and Eternitie of God which three things are orderly combined in this Doxologie Nay is any man of that trāscendent capacitie to whom it shal not be auailable to haue this more then Super-celestiall Mysterie often inculcated into his flitting memorie N. The words wee might better indure were they not so vnseasonably reiterated at the end of all the Psalmes and sundry Hymnes I. You complaine as I heare that Alleluia Prayse yee the Lord is omitted seuenteene times in the end of certaine Psalmes and yet when we at the end of euery Psalme doe most distinctly praise God which Alleluia doth enioyne vs to doe you seeme to be in Choller Againe the end of this rehearsall is First that the ignorant which cannot reade may be aduertised where each Psalme endeth Secondly that the true vse of Psalmes which is the praising of God may bee manifested in practice Thirdly That many irreuerent persons by meanes of this which seemeth to be a kinde of prayer may bee put in minde of the dutie which is most decent in the hearing of the Psalmes namely vailing the Bonnet which many doe with as little regard neglect as they which depart from Baptisme before the Thankesgiuing Of which kinde of Sacrilegious prophanenesse we obserue many lamentable trials among the dissolute multitude N. The second fault in the matter of these prayers is found in these words after the Apostles Creed There is none other that fighteth for vs but only thou O God I. Are there not sinnes enow why make you more what is the knot in this bulrush N. First you seeme to pray for peace in your owne time without regarding the posteritie I. We pray for the one as being a blessing of God promised to two worthy Kings of Iuda 2. Kings 20. 19. 22 10. the latter we neglect not Only we dare not presume that peace shall remaine with vs with her wings clipt for euer When we aske bread for this day doe we neglect to morrow Doe we not tread as neere as may bee in the steps of Christ who forbids vs to take care for to morrow N. Againe when you pray for peace because none fighteth for you but God you seeme to intimate that you would not feare warre if any should fight for you but God I. This is rather our meaning That we feare no warre but expect an eternall peace if God defend vs who is the Lord of Sabaoth that is of Hoasts At which word in the Te Deum some haue cauilled not remembring that it is found in the Greeke Text of Saint Paul For had it beene in the Te Deum Sabboth Rom. 9. 29. not Sabaoth might not that also bee iustified Did not sundry ancient Iewes tearme God the Lord of the Sabbath Day Is hee not indeed the Lord of rest which that word implieth But to returne from this seeming digression God is our a Psal 18. 2. 121 4 127. 2 shield and b Psal 73 25. watchfull keeper him only wee haue in Heauen and Earth And now remember you auouched c Dan. 10. 21. Michael to bee Christ Consider the words there written There is none that holdeth with mee in these things but Michael your Prince If Michael here bee Christ are not the words the same in effect with these in our Liturgie at which you stumble In summe though Angels and Men fight for vs ministerially and in the nature of instruments yet God only fighteth as principall Agent teaching our d Psal 18. 34. hands to fight CHAP. VIII Of the Letanie N. THe Short Prayers being handled I proceed to the Letanie being a more continued forme of Prayer which as I take it doth want things needfull and abound with things needlesse