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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A25216	A reply to the Reverend Dean of St. Pauls's reflections on the Rector of Sutton, &c. wherein the principles and practices of the non-conformists are not only vindicated by Scripture, but by Dr. Stillingsfleet's Rational account, as well as his Irenicum : as also by the writings of the Lord Faulkland, Mr. Hales, Mr. Chillingworth, &c. / by the same hand ; to which is added, St. Paul's work promoted, or, Proper materials drawn from The true and only way of concord, and, Pleas for peace and other late writings of Mr. Richard Baxter ...	Alsop, Vincent, 1629 or 30-1703.; Barret, John, 1631-1713.	1681 (1681)	Wing A2919; ESTC R6809	123,967	128

Cases wherein Moderation ought to be shewn And is not that very agreeable to the Christian-temper And what may others say now of your Icenicum If what I transcribed thence seem to you not agreeable to the Christian temper then was you not under some great Distemper either at the writing of this latter or that former Book In the Christian-temper I have Occasion p. 370. to borrow something from Bishop Downam what he noteth to have always been the Hypocrit Guise I there say is the genius of false Zeal S●il To neglect the greater Du●●es and to affect the Observation of the less to prefer Circumstances before th●●obstance and Ceremonies before the Works either of Piety or Charity to place the heig●th of their Religion either in observing or urging Ceremonies or Controversies in inveighing against them And I say further p. 371. You would not take him for a wise and careful Builder that laid the greatest Weight on the weakest part of the Wall And is that true Zeal for God Or rather is it not a selfish Zeal which is for ones own Opinions or own Party neglecting those things which make most for the Honour of God and wherein the main Interest of Religion lieth If I could see any thing there or in that Book which chanceth to bear the Name of the Rector of Sutton that is not agreeable to the Christian-temper and to the Truth and Doctrine of Christ I hope I should be ready to retract the same Ibid. For it is to pick up all the Passages he could meet with in a Book written twenty Years sinc with great tenderness towards Dissenters before the Laws were establish'd And have you repented of that your former Kindness and Tenderness towards them since the Laws were against them But Solomon tels us A Friend loveth at all times and a Brother is born for Adversity Which I observed 〈◊〉 agreeable to the Christian-temper p. 219. And you cannot deny that which you told us twenty Years since of the Magistrates Power being bounded He hath Power of determining things undetermined by the Word 〈◊〉 they be agreeable to the Word His Laws must be regulated by the general Rules of the Divine Law Rector of Sutton p. 12. That no Laws of Men can hinder but what was Truth will be Truth still and what was Duty will be Duty still In what followeth you more humbly as it would seem than truely confess in Mr. Cotton's words the weakness or unwariness of those Expressions which I have gathered out of your Irenicum That Book was your First-born And the First-born was the chief of their Strength Psal. 105. 36. But it seems you are for reading Gen. 49. 3. Principium doloris rather than Principium roboris The beginning of your Strength is now become the beginning of your Grief Thus you now let the World know indeed that whereas you had written much favouring the Cause of Dissenters your Thoughts at last are changed as to those Things and Persons too Next you fall hotly on me And have you not very well required the Author of that Book for the Tenderness and Pitty he had for you and the Concernment he then expressed to have brought you upon easier Terms c. Reverend Sir I hope you will give me leave to speak when I am thus spoken to I suppose you expect my Answer when you put Questions so close to me First then I thank you for your good pains taken in that Book and for your truly Christian Design in it so agreeable to the Christian-temper though it hath been unsuccesful I doubt not yet but that Book will stand as a Witness before God and the World against many who can never answer that Strength of Reason in it an Evidence of Truth against unn●cessary rigorous mischievous Impositions and yet were for pressing and are still for continuing them upon us But it is no ill Requital of the Author that I have an esteem of his Work And if you can reconcile the Scope of your Sermon with what I cite out of your former Writings do your self that Right Or if you can refute those Collections otherwise such as meet with them may be tempted to think you self-condemned When you say you wrote in Tenderness c. I hope you did not only play the Orator make a flourish meerly with Words or plead our Cause against your own Judgment nor acted the part of Politician as hoping to engage a Party but wrote your Judgment as a sober and indeed well studied Divine Will you say you wrote partially then as swayed with your Pitty and Tenderness towards Dissenters How then shall we be satisfied and assured that you have not written partially of late out of overmuch Fondn●ss on Conformity If you wrote impartially your Judgment and Reason deserves to be regarded till you or some other for you bring greater Str●●gth of Reason to prove you was then in an Error You pleaded wel● for 〈◊〉 ●●ms and what can you say now what have you thought of since to justify Mens imposing harder Terms How can you answer your own Interrogatories What ground can there be why Christians should not stand upon the same Terms now which they did in the time of Christ and his Apost es And whether do they consult the Churches Peace and Vnity who suspend it upon such things as you know what How far doth the Example of our Saviour or his Apostles warrant such rigorous Impositions Rector of Sutton pag. 7 8. You express your having been concerned to have brought us in But were not many of us in both in the Church and in the Ministry before we were put out by the late Impositions● By this expression of yours it would seem your Church is a new Church lately erected standing upon new Terms which I shall have occasion again to take notice of But were we not true Ministers before had we not a valid Ordination Deny it if you can And if we were true Ministers before then it is a great Question whether we are not so still unless you can prove we were justly degraded And consequently whether we are not obliged to the exercise of our Ministry as we may have opportunity Preface p. 72. And hath he now deserved this at your hands to have them all thrown down in his ●ace and to be thus upbraided with his former Kindness Is this your Ingenuity your Gratitude your Christian-temper Now are not these pretty sharp Reflections If you can justly charge me with any Bitterness and Rancor c. I shall acknowledg such things not agreeable to the Christian-temper and would be ashamed of them If you are ashamed to own your former Principles many will judg it is without Cause It may prove you fallen from those sober Principles but it will not prove those Principles false When you speak of my throwing them in your Face my Design was not to cast Dirt upon so worthy a Person What I alledged I took to be matter of

Preaching when 〈◊〉 In the Contents of your Book Part. 1 § 17. it is thus The ●ld Non 〈◊〉 Iudgment of the unlawfulness of Mens preaching here when forbidden by ●aws full● cleared from some late Objections Which you undertake p. 78. c. That their Judgment and Practice was to forbear ●rea●hing in their Parish Churches while they were under Suspension I grant And did not the present Non-conformists follow them herein Did they not generally quit the Temp●es as well as their Tithes and Pr●●ts from Aug. 24. 62. yielding these to be at the Magisnates dispose They would not that you or others should call their Preaching as you do preaching i●●pposition to established Laws whereunto they yielded as far as they could be satisfied it was lawful for them But do you your self be●●●ve that the old Non-conformists thought it unlawful for them to preach at a● when silenced Then you cannot take them to have been very hone●● upr●ght Men who did so ordinarily 〈◊〉 from their own Principles Were not some of them glad of an opportunity of Preaching in another Diocess when they might not be suffered to preach where they lived And were not many of them for the exercise of their Ministry in private when they were denied liberty in publick Fr. Iohnson speaks of their suf●ering themselves to be deposed from their stated publick Ministy which you seem to overlook And so I think Bez● may well be understood of quitting their former publick Employments with whose Testimony you make so great a Flourish p. 21 22. What! is Beza for silencing and stopping the Mouths of such a number of faithful and able Ministers Would Beza even Beza at such a time as that be for silencing so many Preachers It appears that Beza was not of the Mind of our Adversaries That he expresseth no such terrible apprehensions at their quitting their Places as he doth at their Preaching in opposition to the Laws To which I return Were not the Non-conformists generally both at that time and since for quitting their Places rather than holding on in publick to the defiance of the Laws They have desired as far as they could to avoid the exasperating of Rulers They were not for opposing Sword to Sword as Bradshaw has it they were not movers of Sedition nor have been to this day And would Mr. Baxter even Mr. Baxter be for their silencing yet he says in his Search for the English Schismatick p. 37. It is not their Judgment speaking of the meer Non-conformists that they are bound to Preach when by opposing violence or the offending of Rulers it is likely to do more hurt than good and once preaching to deprive them of all the usefulness of their Lives c. But I doubt not there are many Christians yet alive who can remember some of the old Non-conformists and their preaching in private Houses when suspended from Preaching in Churches One writes me word that Mr. Hildersam used to preach in his own House when silenced and two or three Families came to hear him Another special Friend helping me to a sight of some Papers of Mr. E. Reyner formerly of Lincoln I meet with this considerable Passage For me to preach in this Place and at this Time is no way necessary since others may do it and I my self tho put by here may do it as well and freely elsewhere as in New-England Ireland Scotland Holland yea haply in some remote out-wing of the Kingdom And thus God in his ordinary Providence doth order it that his Church gains much by this course of removing Ministers and transplanting the Gospel to such Places as never heard the sound thereof before and in the mean while they may have time to do much good in private c. And I think this was the general Sence of the Non-conformists that they did not look on the censure of Suspension if unjust as a sufficient discharge from the exercise of their Ministry Had they thought themselves bound to cease Preaching whensoever they were prohibited by Men they were honester Men than to act so contrary to their Judgment as they used frequently to preach tho more privately or in Places where they were not known when suspended by the Bishops But these things were not to be publickly talkt of then when the High Commission-Court was up and there was such Inquisition after their Meetings I have this Account of Mr. Simeon Ash from one whose Father 's House was as his home sometimes that when he was sought after by Pursevants coming to them they had Meetings in the Night-time Another a Minister tells me he hath heard from Ancient Christians in Ringly Congregation that Mr. Iohn Angier sometimes Minister there being silenced and having his Chappel suspended by the Bishop of Chester used to preach to divers in his own House till such times as he was removed to Denton I suppose there are some in those Parts yet alive that can testify so much Mr. Westowbye I well knew His Bible was his Licence The Courts could not take him off but he would be at his Work in one place or other Once after my preaching for him when he was scarce able to get into the Pulpit for Age and Weakness accompanying it he entertained me with a Discourse of much of his Life past the Troubles and Opposition he had met with in the World and the great Experience he had of the most encouraging Success of his Ministry under his greatest Troubles that in his Travels he could write to his Wife as he said that God bad given him many Children she knew not of But to enquire after the Practice of particular Persons would be a tedious and endless Work You have the Iudgment of the Assembly under that Head of Ordination where they would have the Person to be ordained declare his sincere Intentions and Ends in entring into this Calling And his Resolution to continue against all Trouble and Persecution If that Assembly were Non-conformists then you see there the Iudgment of the Non-conformists But if they were generally Conformists then you see wee have the Judgment of a Learned Synod of Conformists for us 4. Are you not too partial in allowing Protestants to be occasionally present at some parts of Worship in the Roman Church and that frequently too to hear Sermons c. how far your et caetera may reach others cannot tell till you better inform them while you do not allow them to be present at the Worship performed in the Assemblies of Dissenters The former you are for pag. 108. To your Question there doth this make a Man to have Communion with the Church of Rome I answer yea so far as he joyns in their Worship so far he has Communion with them Sure you will not deny a Man to have any Communion with you in hearing the Word preached who comes for that End and that frequently too So here you must be supposed to grant Occasional Communion with the Roman Church in

Argument and with this Advantage ad Hominem I know no Reason you have to be sorry for what you wrote formerly tending to Peace and Vnion as you may have cause to be sorry for what looks another way I should have thought the Method I took minding you how much you had said against such an establisht Rule as you would now bring us under might have tended to moderate rather than exasperate you What if you have since changed your Opinion Yet me-thinks you should not judge those former Principles of yours so sinful and dangerous that none are fit to be tolerated in the Church who hold to them How happy and glorious would the Church of England be had she no worse Teachers than Dr. Stilling fleet was when he maintained those Principles Or if you do account them so sinful and dangerous are you not the more obliged to disprove and refute them which you will find as hard a Task as it would have been to Grotius had he gone about the Confutation of what he had written de satisfactione Christi You go on Are you afraid of having too many Friends that you thus use those whom you once took to be such Me-thinks herein you appear very self-denying I am not careful to answer in this matter But is it so that we have quite lost you Will you no more stand our Friend Where is then the Kindness you spake of I remember Dr. Borrel silenced me when I had been silenced not two Months before But I could not have thought 20 Years ago that when we were driven into Corners Dr. St. would be for driving us out of our Corners too even he that could plead so well for us that we might enjoy publick Liberty Here I look back to that Preface p. 52. They would have had me preached for Alterations and Abatements and taking away Ceremonies and Subscriptions and then I might have been thought to have preached a very seasonable Sermon This indeed would have shewed that you was still our Friend and not our● only but as good a Friend to this poor Church and Kingdom To plead for all Abatements that with the Honour of God and safety of true Religion might be granted to Dissenters for the uniting and strengthening of the Protestant Interest in such danger to be trodden down by the common Enemy would certainly be more seasonable than this work you are engaged in I would know whether that Speech of the Bishop of St. David's in the Convocation-House May 23 1604 was not seasonable Can it ever be unseasonable moving for the due Liberty of grave honest sound and conscientious Men such as the Church hath need of at all times and whose Labours might be very profitable And then whether pleading for Abatements at this day be not as seasonable I put a great difference said he between Quid liceat and Quid expediat And then speaking of those who were scrupulous only upon some Ceremonies and other Circumstances being otherwise learned studious grave and honest Men whose Labours have been both painful in the Church and profitable to their several Congregations he says though I do not justify their Doings yet surely their Service would be missed at such time as need shall require them and us to give the right hand of Fellowship one to another and to go arm in arm against the common Adversary that so there might be vis unita fortior If these our Breth●en aforesaid should be deprived of their places for the matters premised I think 〈…〉 Cause to bend our Wits to the uttermost extent of our Skill to provide 〈◊〉 cure of Souls for them where they may exercise their Talents Furthermore If these Men being divers hundreds as it is 〈…〉 should forsake their Charges as some do presuppose they will who I 〈◊〉 should succeed them Besides this for so much as in the Life-time of the late Arch-Bishop of Canterbury these things were not so extreamly urged but that many learned Preachers enjoyed their Liberty herein conditionally that they did not by Word or Deed openly disgrace or disturb the State established I would know a Reason why it should now be so generally and exceeding strictly called upon especially seeing that those Men are now the more necessary by so much as we see greater Increase of Papists to be now of late than were before To conclude I wish that if by Petition made to the King's Majesty there cannot be obtained a quite remove of the Premises which seem so grievous to divers not yet a Toleration for them which be of the more staid and temperate Carriage yet at the least there might be procured a Mitigation of the Penalty if they cannot be drawn by other Reasons to a Conformity with us Thus the Bishop of St. David's And if all the Bishops in England were of his Mind and would move for their Ministerial Liberty whose Service is needful at such a time as this especially whether would it not be very seasonable And if you had a Kindness and Pity for Dissenters is there not the same Reason for it still And is not this very Iuncture of Time as good an Occasion as ever you may have to shew it You say further to me Preface p. 72. But I cannot take you to be any of the wisest Men upon Earth And I should wonder if you did But you know what Diogenes said to one that told him many mocked him But said he I am not mocked I might well expect your Contempt when I see you contemning such whose Books I am not worthy to carry after them Yet it may be questioned here whether you take not your self to be wiser than the Wisdome of the whole Nation in Parliament comparing your Preface p. 81 c. with the declared Sense of that great and honorable Council Pref. p. 93. you say These are all the things which appear to me reasonable to be allowed in order to an Union So that if they were inclined to have gone further therein they appeared to you not very considerate or reasonable When you think it reasonable that upon longer time and farther Consideration those Divines of the Assembly who then opposed Separation should change their Opinions But where find you this in what I wrote Will you not allow one single Person but stupendae eruditionis Theologum as the Latine Apologist then called you pag. 118. Who happened to write about these matters when he was very young as you may say Mr. Ioseph Alleyn was very young when he was very ripe in twenty Years time of the most busie and thoughtful part of his Life to see Reason to alter his Judgment And yet you was as close a Student in that former part of your Life and as free from other Business from Diversions and Temptations as can be supposed you have been since But you should be allowed to alter your Iudgment and none can blame you if it be for the better Only in this case you should be so

once thorowly understood our Cause I should not doubt of their determining for us I have respect to what you say Pref. p 77. And to come nearer to you yet If a Council could be called of all the Protestant Churches in Christendom and let any one of these be set in the Chair that would indifferently hear what both Parts have to say I would only exclude such as you for what you say Rat. Acc. p. 292. and 338. What Justice or Reason is there that the Party accused should sit Judg in their own Cause None of the Parties accused seem fit to you either to be Iudg or Iury and with this Caution only I should not distruct our Cause if such a Council had the hearing of it One thing more I learn from these Letters viz. When I see that such eminent learned Divines are so mistaken and drawn to misrepresent so considerable a numb●r of their Brethren living in the same Age with them and not very far remote from them it satisfies me how much more easy it was for the Romish Party being uppermo●● in the World to cloud and obscure those who at any time appeared against their Err●rs and Corruptions As the Lord Faulkland Answer to Mr. Montague p. 281 If he consider the great Industry of his Church in extinguishing those whom they have called Her●ticks and also their Books so ●hat we know scarce any thing of them but from themselves who are too partial to make good Historians if he consid●r how carefully they stop Men's Mouths But here I shall stop my Pen. So much to these Letters Yet for a Conclusion I have a few Words more particularly to you Now Reverend Sir Be not offended at my plainness I hope 't is for the Interest of the true Protestant Religion that I appear in this Cause how weak and unworthy soever My Charity I speak my heart is not confined to a Party no not so set upon that which you would call my own but where I have reason to believe others of a different Perswasion are more holy and live more like Christians I would esteem love and honour such more I am not conscious to my self of wishing you the least harm or enjoying your Dignities or Estate Live or dye sink or swim however things go with me and mine I hope it is my Hearts desire it may go well with the Church and People of God I see the Protestant Interest in a lamentable tottering State Methinks all that are true Friends to it should readily yield it would stand firmer on ample Ground Terms of Communion of a due latitude than on such a narrow Bottom that admits not of a Multitude of sound Christians who would be firm to it Yet the latter of these you plead zealously for though it is plain your dividing them from you by unnecessary uncatholick Terms must needs weaken both you and them This I cannot but be sensible of and think it my Duty to lament Unless the Lord shall incline you to a more moderate Course than you have lately taken in reference to Dissenters I know I may expect a fiercer Assault from you But I know as well what Ground I stand on and further am bold to say you cannot hope for Success in this Cause without first destroying a considerable part of your own Works not only pulling down your Ireni●um a good Sconce however now slighted but also sadly battering and shaking that goodly Fabrick your main Fort the Rational Account too And if you causel●sly destroy what you had so well built and what is fortified and strengthened with so much Reason will you not make your self a Transgressor And may not this add something to the grief of your Wound as Aejop has it of the Eagle to be shot with your own Feathers Yet Reverend Sir I would be more concerned far on other Accounts for you Refrain now from these Men and let them alone for if the Work wherein they are employed be God's Work then you cannot seek to overthrow it but therein you will be found a Fighter against God Oh! be well advised what you do further this way You may be under a sore Temptation seeing your self so far engaged in this Cause possibly you may think it would be a Dishhonour now to retract But if by this Undertaking of yours you seek to deprive very many Souls of the ordinary means of Salvation forbidding us to preach to Sinners that they might be saved if thus you set your self in some measure to obstruct the Course of the Gospel if you so far oppose the Interest of Christ your great Lord and Master if you are against what may be truly called God's Worship and truly Religious Exercises be assured this shall not be for your Honour in the End For the Lord has said Them that honour me I will honour and they that despise me shall ●e lightly esteemed And you know further our Lord Jesus Christ hath denounced a sad Wo unto such as take away the Key of Knowledg from M●n And ought you not to think seriously of it whether you may not be accounted to have a special Hand in procuring what further Opposition and Sufferings your poor Brethren may meet withal If ●en should be animated and set on by your Writings to fine impoverish imprison c. them being falsly persw●●●d that in persecuting them they should do God and his Church good Service can you be found altogether clear in this matter And is it not a dangerous thing not only to scand●lize and injure a Prophet or eminent Saint and Servant of God but 〈…〉 offind the least and weakest Believer Mar. 9. 42. Whosover shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me c. There we see Christ makes not a light matter of it You may go on censuring such as guilty of as great a Sin as Murder when nothing but a fear of sinning kee●● them from d●ing as you would have them But when you have said ●●ll you can against them and tho you will not allow them to be Members of any Church upon Earth yet with all your Authority was it greater you cannot shut them out of Heaven you cannot separate them from Christ As P. Martyr Caeterum dic●nt quicquid velint ●●●quam efficient qui● vivdentes ●●●ertes ad praescrip●um Verbi Dei s●●● faelices The best of it is they may be happy for all that you can ever say or do Yea though they were supposed under some Misapprehensions as suppose Conformity lawful in ●●self yet their Non-conformity and Non-compliance with you through Conscientious Tenderness is better than a rash precipita●● or dissem●ling hypocritical Conformity would ●e And thus endeavouring as near as they can to keep to the Rule of the holy Scripture avoiding what they cannot but suspect is not according to that Rule they may be in a safer way than if they were in external Communion with you And so much I have from my Lord Faulkland