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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A20661	A proufe of certeyne articles in religion, denied by M. Iuell sett furth in defence of the Catholyke beleef therein, by Thomas Dorman, Bachiler of Diuinitie. VVhereunto is added in the end, a conclusion, conteinyng .xij. causes, vvhereby the author acknovvlegeth hym self to haue byn stayd in hys olde Catholyke fayth that he vvas baptized in, vvysshyng the same to be made common to many for the lyke stay in these perilouse tymes.	Dorman, Thomas, d. 1577?	1564 (1564)	STC 7062; ESTC S110087	184,006	300

so long time six hundred yeares after Christ there vvas no priuate masse in the catholike church in any countrie or coast thoroughe ovvt the vvorlde A harde matter is it M. Iuell that yow take apon yow to proue for it is a negatiue so generall that to proue it is a thing impossible To proue that there is no Masse saide imagine with your selfe in all London how harde a matter it were You ar not able for your life to proue that there is no masse saide in the diocesse whereof yow call your selfe bishopp For how shoulde yow proue it being denied but by witnesses how is it possible to haue witnesses to depose for euery church for euery corner in euery churche euery towne euery house in euery towne euery chamber and secrete place in euery house not for once in the weeke but for euery daie not for euery daye but for euery hower of the daie all which he must doe that will conclude a necessarie proufe And yet all this haue yow M. Iuell vndertaken to proue not in the citie of London or diocesse of Salesburie but in all England Fraunce Spayne Scotland Portugall Denmarck Germanie Italie emongest the Indians the Mauritaniās the Egyptians the Persians the Arabians the Armenians the Grecians or in any other place or coast thoroughout the whole worlde not that there was no priuate masse in some one of these places but in neuer a one of them in neuer a towne of al those countries in neuer a house of all those townes in neuer a place were it neuer so secrete of all those houses not for one two or thre yeares but for the continuall space of six hundred A greater matter I confesse then if yow had stoode to the lawe yow coulde peraduenture haue bene constreined to haue done but seing yow trust so much to your selfe let vs heare how yow proue it For saye yow All the vvriters that vver vvithin the compasse of that time haue lefte behinde them vvitnesse sufficient of a communion but not one of them all coulde euer tell vs of anie priuate masse Here if a man should desire of yow good sir a catalog of all such writers as wrote within the first six hundred yeares I thinck for all your greate bragges you woulde turne him ouer to your frend Gesnerus where I am sure he were like to finde many a worcke named that neither he nor yow nor any man elles a liue euer sawe yet and I thinck and feare it to the more is the pitie I maie adde no man hereafter shall see But let this passe yow kepe not your quarters so close but that a man maie r●ache yow a rapp when he will If one shoulde aske yow whether yow haue but ●ene all those writers that be●ng extant and to be sene wrote within the compasse of the first six hundred yeares I thinck such a question would grauell you But if he shoulde goe farder and coniure yowe apon youre false faithe trulie to answere him of those fewe that yowe haue sene how much yow lefte behinde in them that yow neuer reade Esopes dawe neuer was cause of so greate laughter to her other fellowes being spoiled of her borowed fethers as yow woulde bring shame to your companions when your counterfeite lions skinne being plucked ouer your eares and your loftie lookes and greate bragges broughte to nought yow shoulde appeare to the worlde in your simple asses carcas But let this be graunted to your spirite of arrogancie that yow maie saie frelie that yow haue sene all the writers which no man elles aliue hath done let it be a figure of rethorick that yowe haue ransacked euery corner in their worckes who haue not reade the twentith parte thereof and of that little which you haue reade haue not borne awaie perhapps the hundreth Yet all this I saie being graunted what logike is this of youres to reason after this sort All these holy doctours haue geuen vs perfect euidence of a communion without mencion making of any priuate masse Ergo there was in Christes churche within the first six hundred yeares no priuate masse If apon your witnesse yow bring not in this conclusion yow saie nothing against vs. If this be your conclusion in effect yow saie as little forasmuch as euery childe is in a manner able to teache yow that this consequent is nought he speaketh not of such a thinge Ergo there is no such thing Or as yowe reason they did not Ergo they coulde not I would alleage your auctorities of Clemens Dionisius Iustinus martir Ambrose Hierom Austen Leo sauing that we finde in them that which we denie not that is to saie that with the priest the people did vse to communicate but that if as yow saie the people would not the priest should not thereof we finde not one worde which till yow proue to vs Chrisostome his yea wilbe taken for better then youre naie In the meane season yow maie if it please yow take this for an answere That as the catholikes forbidde no man to receiue with the priest that will but hartelie wisshe that all men would so dispose thēselues that at euery Masse with the priest there might be some to cōmunicate so neither can they constreine them to receiue whose deuotion thereto serueth them not nor maie them selues absteine from the sacrifice whereunto Christes institution bindeth them Which reason allthough it please one of youre coate I meane him that toke on him your defence of late as appeareth by a little treatise by him sent a brode to call the roote of all the abuses of the L. supper and farder to affirme that Christes institution maketh no mencion of any oblatiō or sacrifice to be done by the priest sauing onelie the sacrifice of thankes geuing Yeat ar we able well to proue that bothe the sacrifice which is offered is not of thanckes geuing onelie but of the very bodie of Christ bothe owt of Martialis the B. of Burdeaulx one of the disciples of Christ S. Ambrose S. Austen S. Chrisostome and others and also that it ought dailie to be offered and so was vsed in the primitiue churche and last of all that Christe him selfe commaunded him selfe to be offered If yow thin●ke that this be but a shift and that we meane nothing lesse then that the people should communi●ate and receiue together with the priest lookeapon that citie cast your eyes to that churche which of all other I dare saie in the worlde yow hate moste Rome I meane and there shall yow by the comon and frequent communicating of the people with the prieste well perceiue how greately yow haue iniuried vs with that selaunderouse diffamatiō that oure priestes inhibite and forbid the lait●e to communicate with them at their Masses Loke apon those religiouse men of the societie of Iesus whose chieffest-profession is to enstruct youthe in vertue and learning to trauaile about the worlde to bring in to Christes folde infidelles and

A PROVFE OF CERTEYNE ARTICLES IN RELIGION DENIED BY M. IVELL sett furth in defence of the Catholyke beleef therein by Thomas Dorman Bachiler of Diuinite VVHERE VNTO is added in the end a conclusion conteinyng .xij. Causes vvhereby the Author acknovvlegeth hym self to haue byn stayd in hys olde Catholyke fayth that he vvas baptized in vvysshyng the same to be made common to many for the lyke stay in these perilouse tymes Augustinus contra literas Petiliani lib. 2. cap. 16. Si quaeras quibus fructibus vos esse potius lupos rapaces cognoscamus obijcio schismati● trime● quod tu negabis ego autem statim probabo Nequé enim communicas omnibus gentibus illis ecclesijs Apostolico labore fundatis that is to say If thou demaundest he speaketh to Petilian the Heretick by vvhat fruictes I knovv you to be rather the rauening vvolues I obiect to you the fault of scisme vvhich thou vvilt deny but I vvil out of hand proue for thou doest not communicat vvith all Nacions nor vvith those churches founded by th'apostles labour Imprinted at Antwerp by Iohn Latius at the signe of the Rape with Priuilege Anno 1564. REgiae Maiestatis Priuilegio permissum est Thomae Dormanno sacrae Theologiae Baccalaureo vti per aliquem Typographorum admissorum impune●e ei liceat imprimi curare per omnes suae ditionis Regiones distrahere Librum inscriptum A prouf of certeyn articles in religion denyed by M. Iuell omnibus al●s inhibitum ne eundem absque eiusdem Thomae consensu imprimant velalibi impressum distrahant sub poena in Priuilegio contenta Datum Bruxellae 14. Iul. Anno. 1564. Subsig Facuwez TO THE RYGHT VVORSHIPFVLL MASTER Thomas Hardyng Doctor of Diuinite Thomas Dorman Bachiler of the same sendeth gretyng and wyssheth health of bodye and soule IT prycketh now fast if my memory fayle me not ryght worshipfull sir towardes the poyncte of seuenteen yeares when I beyng a yong nouyce of Caluyns relygyon was fyrst by my frendes brought to that famouse schole at Wynchester of bishop VVyckham hys foundation At which tyme it pleased you of your goodnes beyng then one of them who had for that yeare the right and auctoritie in that behalf without monye without rewarde without commendation of frendes apon the onlye contemplacion and respect of my pooer and nedye estate and some lyttle hope perhapps conceiued hereof that once the tyme myght cōme when I should not be alltogether vnprofytable eyther to my countrye that brought me forth eyther to the place that should nouryshe me vp to bestowe apon me beyng then a futer for that purpose your voyce or suffrage for th' obteinyng of a place emon gest the scholers there By the benefyte whereof I was the same yeare made one of that numbre brought home agayn to Chrystes churche from whence I was strayed and fynally haue obteyned that knowledge and small vn derstanding yfyet emongest the learned it may be accompted any to the which you now see me growen True ytis I can not denye yt that other helpes God hath sence that tyme prouyded for me to the furnyshyng and makyng perfect of that buyldyng the foundacion whereof by your handes he fyrst disposed to be layde To whome I mynde not nether to showe my self in tyme and place of so great benyfytes by them receaued eyther vnmyndfull or vnthanckfull In the meane season yf as next after God of that profytt which I haue taken in my studye what so euer yt be I accompt you for the author and verye founder thereof so I doe with the scripture askyng quis plantat vineam et de fructueius non comedit offer to you such as they ar the fyrst fruictes thereof for a taste and that apon the groundes of the law whych wyll that the most auncient debt be first discharges before all other none I trust of my other frendly cre dytours wyll be therewithall offended Thys hath byn ryght worshypfull sir the verye cause of my boldnesse in offeryng to you thys rude and symple treatyse of myne Wherein yf any offence on my part haue byn commytted impute it I praye you to the abundan●e of the great good will that I beare towardes you and the necessitie that I thought my self to stand in for the testifyeng of my mynd ready in some part to discharge as I was hable my dutye to you Fare you wel at Aquicinctum the seat of my banyshment your mastershyps to commaund Thom. Dorman TO THE READERS I Am not ignorant good Readers of the manyfold daungers wherinto what so euer he be he wyllyngly as yt wer casteth hym self who publysheth any thyng to the world in wrytyng The whych confy deration after that I had well weighed and deepely debated wyth my self of what mynde I was touchyng the sendyng abroade of thys lytle treatyfe of myne any man may easely iudge For I besydes those sawcy snaphaunces and murmuryng momi whome no mans doyngs can please but there owne which fortune I tooke to be common to me wyth many foresawe also my self not wythout good cause in apparence ready to fall in to the iust and lawfull reprehension euen of those whose iudgements I haue alwayes both loued and feared the wyser the learneder and the better sort also Whylest after so godly so graue so exact a worck most amply treatyng of the same matter I of all other moost vnfyt therefore should seeme to take pen in hand to wryte agayne This one cause appeared to me to be of such importance that I was euen fully resolued to stay my hand and trauell herein no farder When sodenly beholde emongest dyuerse other it camme to my mynde to thynck on the earnest desyre and godly greedy hunger of my pooer countrymen I meane not the Catholykes only but euen of those whome simplicitie not malice hath caused to stray whereof I was to my great comfort dayly enformed wyth what labour they fought for wyth what diligence they harckened after wyth what sauory appetyte they receaued in to ther myndes and as it wer deuoured such bookes as brought them any tydyngs of the truthe Whereapon I discoursed farder wyth my self that e●en as in a plague of famyn or dearth● he that hauyng in hys barnes no great stoare of corne but yet somme beyng once well mynded and charytably moued to employ part of that lytle which he had to the comfort and relyef of hys pooer hungrye neyghbours should in all mens iudgement doe verye ●uell yf afterward apon the liberall almoise of some welthyer man he should vtterly wythdrawe hys and because hys habylytie serueth hym not to gyue as muche gyue nothyng at all euen so me thought it fared wyth me who myndyng these two whole yeares past to conferre some part of that small prouysyon that allmyghty god hath bestowed on me to publyke cōmodytie could not now I perswaded my self suppresse and kepe in the same wythout the manyfest offendyng of hys holy spyryt who fyrst moued me