be Where it is something that he confesseth their bread not to be like the Papists neyther in extensive quantitie nor yet in Forme and Figure But yet I am perswaded he wrongeth that Church in making their Cakes as thin as the Papists Host. For the Papists Host is a starchie or scummie crust distinct from cibarius panis bread fitting for food by our Divines censure of it And it is not credible that the Church of Geneva should reteyne such a grosse corruption But sayth the Rejoynder you allow their Ceremonie of Wafer-bread Nothing lesse We never read nor heard from them that they made any Wafer fashion a Religious significant Ceremonie This Wafer was first baked in England And if they did they are olde enough let them answer for themselves But addeth he even unleavened bread hath been abused Neyther allow we of any Ceremonious leaving out of leaven nor can it be proved of the Geneva Church As for that which was added by the Replier of custome heerin praevayling against Farells Calvins and Virets advise it is confessed by the Rejoynder that these Divines had brought-in a custome of using common bread but after some knaves working upon the reliques of the former custome brought in unleavened bread which is enough for to confirme that which the Replier spake as the Rejoynder sayth at random To the second part of the quaestion whether it be nor a wide leape to bring in the Practise of Geneva for an Instance of the Non-Conformists practise in England The Rejoynder answereth that it is an abuse unruly lightnesse eagernesse after squibs and scornes which wrought the Replier out of his geares All this it pleaseth him to lay upon this one phrase a wide leape a litle after he had commended Hellebore unto M. Parker with many such Drugges unto others And what is the cause Forsooth because this Geneva Wafer-cake was given as an instance of our Confessions and not of our Practise But this is as wide as if it had been confessed to belonge to our Practise For no such Confession of ours can be shewed It had been fitting to object nothing unto us as Confessed but that which we have eyther in practise or in writing allowed Neyther in deed was it the Defender his meaning to make all the rest of his instances our Practises and this onely our Confession but he stumbled upon this in the ende as a thing that must have some place among his objections because it had been objected by others and the Rejoynder having begunne his booke with the accusation of Scurrilitie finding him to be taken had no other way but with this shew of a distinction to vente some salt phrases like unto that Vt ultima primis consentirent 1. e. That both endes might agree A POSTSCRIPT SOme Reader may inquire whence came this new writing about Ceremonies And he may please to be informed that after the Abrigement was printed a great silence followed in England about these matters as if enough had been sayd on both sides until D. Morton then B. of Chester not thinking it honest to silence Ministers for Ceremonies before some answer was given unto their reasons they stood upon undertooke with great confidence to give a full Answer to all which was objected This answer being printed was divers years neglected as conteyning litle or nothing that had not formerly been confuted But afterward when silence was interpreted in such sence as if it had been a yeelding consâ—nt it was by some thought fitting that a breif Replie should be opposed This the Bishop thought not worthy of his owne Rejoynder but was contented to put it off unto D. Burges as a friend to him ingaged in the cause and wanting neyther will nor witte nor wordes nor credit And he went about it with all his might But finding more rubbes in the way then he had thought of after he had spent about nine years in Rejoyning to that which was written in some fowre weâ—kes by Special Command procured he knoweth by whome was compelled to thrust forth his imperfect woâ—ke full of such passionate stuffe as it may be upon more deliberation he himself would have recalled Vpon these out-cries it was necessarie to speakagaine for a good cause lest diffamation should praevayl against it But what good will some say can be exspected from this writing when the cause appeareth dâ—speratâ—â— Surely litle or none for the publick Because in our Bishops courses Will and Power have jusâ—led out Reason But yet Gods word is not bound And if we must needes be oppressed by them is it not worth a litle inke and paper to demonstrate that it is in a good cause By this meanes our consciences are justified our afflictions made more tolerable our oppressours though more angered yet must of necessitie be lesse insulting and our names shall suffer lesse though our bodies and outward estate endure more and Posteritie shall not say that for our owne ease we betrayed the cause by leaving it more praejudiced to them then we receyved it from our Fore-fathers FINIS AN ADDITION Of the two last reasons of the former reply unto whiâ—h no answer hath as yet beene rejoyned THE REPLYER Being not onely willing but desirous for the manifestation of the truth that the Reioyner should try his strength to the utmost CHAP. V. Sect. I. ad X. THe Authours of the Abridgment framed a strong Argument against our Ceremonies from the rules of Ceremonies prescribed in the Word P. 43. c. with this Argument when the Defendant was not able to grappell as it stood in the parts combined he thought good to sever some parcels of it and try what he could say to them apart Thus out of this one Argument he hath taken that which he calleth our first and out of the same he hath made up this fift and yet hee hath quite leâ—t out a great part of the sinewes wherewith that one reason is knit together in the Abridgement The argument is taken from the scandall or offence which the imposing and using of these ceremonies do bring unto divers sorts of men The Defendant here maketh great flourishing in nine whole Sections defining deviding and subdividing a scandall as if he would make all cleare before him but at the end of all this preparation he maketh no application of these Rules unto the matter in hand at all but onely telleth his Reader Pag. 154. That these divisions and subdivisions will expedite all difficulties so that out of them he may collect the true and false sense of Scriptures alledged It were sufficient therefore either to deny this power to be in his divisions or else to sett downe as many other subdivisions of scandall which were easie to doe and then tell him that these will expedite the controversie and that from them hee may collect the errours of his answer But I will notwithstanding briefly shew my opinion concerning some of these dâ—ctates The definition which he onely alloweth of as
loue to our Cerem the peace of our Church so much pretended in his ansvver The third therfore must be concluded for I do not see vvhat fourth thing can be given Only Did ever any ansvverer serious judicious amongst Divines of any kynd Protestant Papist Lutheran propound such conditions did ever any grant such nay is it not to common sense ridiculous For any Lutheran to send to a Calvinist any Protestant to a Papist having printed some serious treatise agaynst them to send I say this message vvell you haue printed a treatise here you place some yea great confidence in it if you vvill reduce it into sillogismes you shall be soone ansvvered that ther is nothing but bumbast paynted vermilion putt upon it Spectatum admissi risum VVould not the Papists laugh in ther sleeves at such an ansvver I vvill say no more but only propound this forme to the Rej. saue him a labor to reduce it He that propounds such tearmes of ansvver vvhich never vvere yet asked or granted indeed are unreasonable to yeeld professeth he cannot make an ansvver being vvilling therunto But such termes the Rej. craves The like jirkes he lends to M r. Iacob p. 16. To Godly learned Fenner p. 38. And he hath such a mynde to chide that upon the occasionall mentioning of one vvord excrement he fetcheth a vagary into Scotland as it vvere sitts in judgement upon the Author of theScotch dialogue pa. 131. l. 20. vvithout any confutation of any ground vvhich I supose had better suited his place being an ansvverer and not a judge In like sort he vilifies M r. Bradshavv A pamphlet of things indifferent of M r. Bradshavv pa. 188. your M r. Bradshavv VVhom vve are not ashamed to ovvne suppose the Doctor vvould haue beene afrayd to haue grappled vvith him in an arg had he beene aliue Venerable M r. Cartvvright he taketh up sometime as if he had vvritten upon praejudice vvithout judgemeÌ„t Thus much I thought good to adde in short to vvipe avvay that supercilious disdayne cast here by the Doctor upon divers of the Lords deare servants many thousands of vvhom together he accuseth after of stupiditie or praejudice even all that allovv not of Organs in Divine service or Psalmes-singing VVe shall novv summarily poynt at the rest of the places as an inventory or treasury of the Rej. taunts p. 47. l. 22. p. 50. l. 7.8 p. 52. l. 33.34.35 p. 55. l. 26. p. 113. l. 32. p. 120. l. 12. p. 130. l. 10. p. 141. l. last p. 180. l. 32. p. 182. l. 16 17. p. 213. l. 18. p. 247. l. 21.22 p. 312. l. 6.7 p. 315. l. 11.12 p. 316. l. 10. These are some of the many common places of scoffes to be found in his booke are all contayned vvithin the compasse of the three first chapters as for the last I had neither leyseure nor list to trouble thee good reader or my self vvith vvriting them out Only to giue thee a guesse hovv prittily the Rej. can play vvith vvords fynd himself talk fill up pages I shall take so much paynes as to transcribe a place or tvvo Thus he vvrites p. 66. So this those rules after added are as the proverbe is like a rope butter that if the one slip the other may hold So agayne p. 73. The truth is M r. Iacob could never get ouer the block vvhich M r. Cartvvright the Admonitors had layd in his vvay hovv ever M r. Cartvvright himself a man of more activity made a shift to leape ouer it namely thus VVhat soeuer is not commanded in the vvord must not be in the Church And yet M r. Iacob that he might seeme to hold fayre quarter vvith M r. Cartvvright other learned Divines vvho acknovvledge that certayne Ecclesiasticall rites Cerem appropriated to holy actions vvere left to the determination of the Church under some generall rules of the vvord vvill seeme to allovv somevvhat he cannot tell vvhat some circumstances only civill or occasionall as the tyme place vvhich he rather calleth circumstances then Cerem that so if any shall say he allovveth nothing to the Churches determination to be squared by some rules He may ansvver for himself say yes certayne circumstances are namely such as are necessary in civill as vvell as sacred actions If on the other side one challenge him to giue some liberty to men for the ordayning of rites vvhich are but extrinsecall circumstances about the vvorship of God He may ansvver for himself he hath protested agaynst all meere Ecclesiasticall Rites vvhich are ordayned by men not left so much as one to their determination Thus as he that by turning of his picture of an horse made it running or a tumbling horse vvhich you vvould So hath M r. Iacob provided for himself ther to square some circumstances by 4. rules or to put of all by another as the market shall require This is the substance Christian Reader of a vvhole page almost Touching vvhich I vvould propound these Quaeres to thy consideration VVhether it vvas not easy to make up a massy volume vvith such talk as this 2. If a man should sett dovvne such like passages vvord for vvord add an ansvver sutable filled vvith such vvynde vvould it not rather be accounted that justly a blotting of paper abusing the reader then rendering an ansvver of any vvorth satisfaction And by the survay of these perticulars collected out of the three first chapters comparing theReply thervvith I am confident it vvill soone appeare to any not forstalled vvith prejudice vvhether the replye or ansvver mâ—y most justly challenge beare the name of scurrilous And it vvill be as evident thatthe Rej. had no cause to accuse the Repl. of scurrility unlesse he vvould condemne himselfe not only of the same crime but ofsomvvhat beside farr more synfull For though it be easily incident I confesse to our corrupt natures out of a pange of pride passion to cast unbrotherly contempt upon such vvho seeme to crosse us in our opinions practises vvhen it comes to poynt of opposition bevvixt some particular men our selves yet to vent such a masse of venome in heavy censures harsh Revilings slighting scornes that not agaynst one particular vvhich may appeare in competition opposition agaynst us but even agaynst the generation of those vvhich refuse humane Ceremonies in Divine vvorship many vvherof our penns consciences acknovvledge vvorthy Godly Nay not only to vent these expressions but to keepe them sovvring leavening by us in our hearts vvritings many yeares vvherin vve haue beene persvvaded by freinds after persvvasions resolved rather to haue theÌ„ burned by others or to burne them our selves And yet after all this in colde blood in saddest consideration upon revievv so far to approue of theÌ„ as to print publish them to the vvorld Hovv such a mans spirit is principled vvhether
that Beza and M r. Cartwright determined with him in case of the Surplice I answer 1. they did not so for the crosse 2. they did not so for subscription to either 3. they did not so but by way of toleration requiring also that men did speake against the imposing of the Surplice 4. Beza was not throughly acquainted with the state of our Church M r. Cartwright as I have beene certainly informed by his owne sonne recalled that passage of his booke and desired that his revoking of it might be made knowne I thought good overseeing the Presse to confirme the Authors report by a more particular relation which I have received from a person of good credit set downe in writt as followeth MR. Cartwright being beyond the seas in printing the rest of his 2. Reply werein that indulgence is sent to the Ministers of England who sought reformation with him for their opinion of the use of the Surplice in case of deprivation 22. of whom met therabout of whom 19 joyntly agreed that it was simply unlawfull in any case but the other three sayd otherwise wherefore it was agreed by all that each part should write their opinion and their reasons to him which they did but the letter of the nineteene miscarried and that of the other three was delivered which he taking as the letter of the whole supposed their joynt consent had beene that the losse of the ministery altered the case of the unlawfulnesse so that they were all against him whereupon be mistrusting his owne judgement and being much perplexed thereabout suffered himselfe to be swayed unto what is there written but afterward understanding the right hee was much more perplexed yea as he sayd more then ever he was in that to the great prejudice of the truth he had suffered his conscience to be so defiled which was forbidden 1. Cor. 8.7 which hee bartily sorrowed to many professing that if he againe put penn to paper about that subject he would cleare the cause and blame himselfe praying them to signify the same freely in the meane tyme the which they did so that it ever since hath been currant among all his friends and constantly affirmed by them to all on due occasions and particularly affirmed to M. Sprint by a Gentleman in the presence of one Nobleman two Gentlemen 27. Ministers and many professors in his course in the scanning his booke then about to be printed divers yeares before it was printed sundry also of those ministers avouched the same some on their owne knowledge others vpon vndoubted testimony which yet is ready to be avouched in due case of need and should now be expressed were not the naming of the avouchers dangerous vnto them and so not to be done without their knowledge which now cannot be For the point it selfe when a man doth but stand in doubt betwixt using the ceremonies and suffering of dâ—privation it must needs be more safe patiently to suffer himselfe to bee thrust from his ministâ—ry then to reteine it and offend his conscience by using the Ceremonies For to bee restrained by authoriâ—y from his lawfull function because hee will not yeeld to the doing of that which to him is sinne is no more sinne in the sufferer then to surcease his publicke preaching whilest he is held in prison where he wanteth occasion Thus the use of that is avoyded which he disalloweth and the blame of leaving his standing is theirs who cast him from thence and not his So no sinn is committed eiâ—her in the use of that hee disalloweth or in susteining deprivation But to hold his place and to practise against conscience is to commit one great sinn at the least Thus having examined the Defend his adventurous charges of false presumptuous irreligious partiall and pernitious I finde them all to bee but rash words of distemper SECT XV. IN the last place the Defendant bringeth forth to answere the words of the Apostle 1. Thess. 5.22 Abstaine from all appearance of evill But as this argument is not found at all in that page of the Abridgment which he citeth so in the words or sence which he setteth downe I dare say it is not used either of them or any other against the ceremonies Yet let us heare his answer The Apostle speaketh sayth he of the opinions of private men But 1. what warrant hath he to restraine a generall praecept when the universalitie of it agreeth witâ— the law Abstaine from all appearance sayth the Apostle i. e. sayth the Def. from some private opinions 2. Why must appearance of evill be needs understood of opinions onely two or three interpreters indeed do understand it of doctrine most properly but the most otherwise and the word translated appearance signifying rather an object of seeing then of hearing leads us rather to the eye as in actions gesturs garments then to the ear in doctrines 3. For that which he addeth of private mens opinions there is no circumstance of the text nor any reason or authority that doth warrant such a glosse SECT XVII AMong his accusations wherein he chargeth us with manifold scandalls the first is that some weak ones by occasion of these differences stand amazed and so become more remisse in profession or religion Where 1. it is to bee observed that when wee spake of weake-ones sect 12. it was putt off with this pretence that they were such as we had catechised Now then who are these weak-ones I hope the Bishops provide that people of their Diocesses are well catechised whence then is this weaknesse 2. DiffereÌ„ces in matters of circumstance are not wont to breed scandall untill some authority injoyne uniformity as we may see in the primitive Churches 3. If differences be the occasion of this scandall surely those that differ from us may as well be accused therefore as we that differ from them especially when we urge nothing of ours upon them but they impose their owne devices upon us and so are causes of the differences 4. The amazement which some have wondring what will be the event of differences is no damnable error which by the Def. is required to a scandall sect 1. And if they grow remisse in religion upon it that is their sinne I am sure zeale against superstition and for pure and undefiled worship hath no fitnesse in it to work remissenesse in religion but urging of humaine devices in Gods worship tendeth directly thither SECT XVIII THe second charge of scandall is in respect of the Separatists Where 1. I aske if Gaius had made a separation from the Church wherein Diotrephes lived whether the Apostle Iohn had beene cause of that scandall because he condemned his abuse of excommunication Ioh. 3.9.10 2. If any separate from churches where Images are retained who is the cause they that dislike of Images or they that retaine them 3. The dislike of Ceremonies is not the cheife cause for which separation is made but the intollerable abuses which are in Ecclesiasticall