Selected quad for the lemma: friend_n
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A47176
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A serious dialogue betwixt a church-man and a Quaker
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Keith, George, 1639?-1716.
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1699
(1699)
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Wing K207; ESTC R26829
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10,201
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18
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these new Creeds not only contradict their elder Brethren but also their own Books And the sense of many of our Friends is concerning G. W. and W. P. that they are not a-whit changed in their Faith but that they give forth those new Creeds to quiet the Nation and be a blind to them to make all thing the Quakers Toleration is secured to them as much as of any Dissenters for by these Creeds all will be apt to thing we are one in Faith and Doctrine with all the Dissenters who are included in the Act of Toleration and that we own all the Articles of the Church of England excepting some few that are excepted in the Act it self in favour of such Dissenters as are of the same Faith with your Church in all the other Articles Church-man It seems your chief Leaders have some of the Policy of the Jesuits and other Popish Orders that to lye and dissemble is no Sin providing the Peace of the Church can be preserved thereby Quaker I cannotdeny but that some of our chief Leaders and particularly W. P. and G. W. seem to agree with them in such Politicks as in too many other things which is a great grief to many sincere and simple-hearted persons among us Church-man But do ye not in good earnest believe the twelve Articles of the Apostles Creed Quaker As for my self I cannot say that I believe them all for there are divers of them I do not believe and so I am perswaded many hundreds of our Friends do not believe them no more than I do for the very Books of our Friends of best account with us hath taught us to believe the contrary and none have more plainly led us into a contrary Belief than the Books of G. W. and W. P. Church-man Pray what Articles or parts of that Creed do ye and many of your Friends not believe and what Passages in your Friends Books have led you not to believe them Quaker Your Creed that ye commonly call the Apostles Creed hath three distinct Articles in it one concerning your Belief in God the Father a second concerning your Belief in Christ the only begotten Son conceived by the Holy Ghost and born of the Virgin Mary that suffered under Pontius Pilate was crucified dead and buried and a third concerning your Belief in the Holy Ghost By which it is plain to me and I think ye will not deny it that your Creed holds forth a distinction of Father Son and Holy Ghost as three distinct Persons distinguished by certain incommunicable Properties as ye commonly call them otherwise why make ye three Articles concerning them but that ye believe them to be three distinct Persons But both G. W's Books and W. P's have taught us a plaint contrary Belief and what they have taught us we believed that they had given them by Divine Inspiration for G. W. in his Divinity of Christ denyeth any distinction of Persons and in his Truth defending the Quakers denyeth that they are distinguished by incommunicable Properties and W. P. in his Sandy Foundation hath not only argued against three Persons but against three in any sense or respect otherwise than nominally as he somewhere words it as to say three Manifestations or three differing Names But at this rate ye may infer thirty as well as three for it is certain there are thirty various Names given to God in Scripture and many more and there are as many various Manifestations and Operations Again whereas your Creed teacheth you to believe that he who suffered under Pontius Pilate was the Son of God W. P. in his Serious Apology hath taught us a contrary Belief That that outward Person that suffered at Jerusalem so he calleth him that was born of Mary was not properly the Son of God and saith plainly we utterly deny it And G. W. in his Christian Quaker denyeth that Christ did consist of Flesh and Bones he grants he had a Body of Flesh and Bones but denyeth that he did consist of it that is as any part of him as you and I have our Bodies of Flesh and Bones to be parts of us and we consist of them as well as we have our more noble parts to wit our Souls of which we also consist Church-man But if ye believe that he who outwardly suffered Death at Jerusalem was properly the Son of God ye must also not believe that he who was born of Mary was properly the Son of God Quaker No more we do for the Son and the Father are but two Names and but one God and if we should believe that he that was born of Mary was the Son of God we should believe that he was God and so Mary should be the Mother of God which as G. W. hath taught us to believe is plain Popery Church-man If that Child that was born of Mary was not properly the Son of God pray whose Son was he for every Son must have some Father Quaker He was the Son of Mary Church-man Mary was not his Father but his Mother who was his Father Quaker Abraham and David Church-man Abraham and David were his remote Fathers as your Grand-Fathers and great Grand-Fathers were your remote Fathers but who was the immediate Father of Christ if not God And if God was his immediate Father then surely he was properly the Son of God and God was properly his Father Quaker I am not for answering thy ensnaring Questions nor for disputing with thee Church-man Pray what other Articles in our Creed do ye not believe Quaker That Article in your Creed that Christ descended into Hell and that other Article that he arose the third day and afterwards ascended into Heaven if by Hell and Heaven ye mean local places without us Church-man We do indeed by Hell and Heaven mean local places without us Quaker But W. P. hath taught us to believe that a local Heaven or Hell is Mahometan and G. W. hath taught us that to say Christ existeth Bodily without us at God's right hand in a personal existence is Anthropomorphitism and Muggletonism Church-man Do ye believe that Christ was buried Quaker That outward Person that was crucified on the wooden Cross and was buried was not the Christ of God but the Christ of God was in that outward Person that was crucified and buried I pity thy Ignorance to think that any thing that was mortal or could dye could be Christ or that Christ could be buried Our worthy Friend John Whitehead hath taught us that nothing that is mortal can be called Christ and G. W. hath told us that Christ was never seen with carnal Eyes and our Friend W. P. hath proved it against J. Faldo that it was not Christ that did hang on the Cross but the Body in which Christ was Church-man But what say ye to the places of Scripture that expresly say that Christ dyed and was buried as 1 Cor. 15. 3 4. Quaker Our inspired Teachers have taught us that the Scriptures are
not always to be understood literally Church-man At this rate I fear ye believe scarcely one Article of our Creed Do ye believe that the same Body of Jesus that was buried rose again and ascended into Heaven Quaker We believe that Jesus rose again but not that he rose in the same Body or that he ascended in the same Body for he rose in a Spiritual Body that came in the doors being shut as the Disciples were met together But the Body that did hang on the Cross and was buried was a Carnal or Natural Body and Christ's Body is Heavenly and Spiritual and is in us for we eat it as W. P. hath argued and nobly defended our ancient Friend G. P. but that was not the Carnal Body that was crucified and buried and G. W. in his Light and Life hath taught us that an Earthly Body and a Heavenly Body cannot be the same Substance and W. P. hath taught us in his Answer to J. Faldo that to say a Natural Body can be changed to a Spiritual Body and yet be the same in Substance is to out-do the absurd Doctrine of Transubstantiation Church-man Do ye believe that other Article of our Creed that Christ will come in a Bodily Existence without us as the Son of Mary to judge the quick and the dead Quaker We cannot believe any such Carnal Notion for that supposeth that Christ is in Heaven as in a local place without us and has our true Nature in Heaven but Ed. Burr our great Prophet hath taught us that it is Blasphemy to say that Christ is in Heaven in our Nature also it contradicts G. W. Church-man Do ye believe that Article of our Creed the forgiveness of Sins Quaker We do not believe it as ye state it and according to your Notion of it Church-man Why What is our Notion of it that ye do not believe it Quaker Ye tell us God forgives you your Sins upon the account of Christ's having paid the Debt of your Sins and having satisfied the Justice of God for them but we have no such Belief for W. Pen hath taught us that a Debt cannot be both paid and freely forgiven and this he saith doth totally exclude Satisfaction And you tell us that we must not only repent but believe in the Man Christ without us and that such a Faith is absolutely necessary to our forgiveness This we altogether deny for this would contradict our ancient Faith That the Light within us in sufficient to Salvation without any thing else Ye are so ignorant as not to distinguish betwixt a Historical Faith and a Saving Faith The Historical Faith is your Faith in a Christ without you that dyed at Jerusalem above Sixteen Hundred Years past but the Saving Faith is in the Power of God within us the Light and Life and that is the true and proper Christ Besides your Doctrine of Remission of Sins teacheth you to pray for a daily forgiveness because ye sin daily so that in your Common-Prayer from Seven to Seventy ye are still praying God be merciful to us miserable Sinners as W. P. hath well observed We neither need nor expect such a forgiveness and therefore we are not taught so to pray nor do we use such Prayers for our selves as Strangers that frequent our Publick Meetings can sufficiently inform thee Church-man Do ye own the Resurrection of the Body that dyeth and that the deceased Saints look for the Resurrection of their Bodies Quaker Nay for if the deceased Saints look for any such Resurrection as W. P. hath taught us it would follow they were in some Purgatory for the time and he hath also taught us that a Natural Body and a Spiritual Body are two Bodies Church-man I am greatly amazed I did not think that ye did so universally disbelieve our Creed as I find ye do for I cannot understand that ye believe any one Article of it as stated by us and all Orthodox Christians throughout the whole World Quaker What talks thou to me of your Orthodox Christians we deny you to be Christians but in Name But suppose we believed all your twelve Articles as stated by you what would that Faith profit us How many of them think ye necessary to our Salvation to be believed by us Church-man I think all of them very necessary Quaker And I think scarce any of them as stated by you to be necessary Church-man Pray why Quaker Nothing is necessary to be believed by us to our Salvation but what the Light within us which is the same in every Man teacheth us to believe but there is scarce one of your twelve Articles that our Light within us teacheth us to believe for if it did it would teach our Jewish and Mahometan Brethren and many other pious Gentiles and excellent Moral Livers these Articles of your Creed but this it doth Not. Church-man Do ye then take all Just and Moral Men Jews and Mahometans that profess the same Light within and obey its dictates to be your Christian Brethren Quaker Yea we do for W. P. hath taught us in his Address to Protestants that it is uncharitable to exclude any meer just Man from our Society and there are many just Men among them Church-man But why think ye that to take Christ God-Man without you to be the Object of your Faith together with the Light within you will bring any great inconveniences and sad inferences and consequences upon you Quaker Yea Time would fail to number them all I will mention some of them to thee First as I told thee before it quite overturns our whole Fabrick that we have been building almost these Fifty Years past and plucks up by the Roots the Testimony of ancient Friends yea and our present Testimony among our selves For Christ God-Man as they phrase it without us in Heaven in a Bodily Existence is the World 's Christ which our Friends neither think necessary nor profitable to preach for we find that the preaching of it hath not profited the Hearers and as our great Prophet Ed. Burr hath taught us the Light of Christ within is only that which is necessary to be taught for Salvation Secondly That Doctrine of a Christ God-Man without us being the necessary Object of our Faith will necessarily infer that we must set up another Rule of Faith than the Light within us to wit the Scriptures For whatever is a Ruâ—e of Faith must propose to our Minds all the things necessary to be believed and the full and compleat Object of Faith but this the Light within us doth not If Christ God-Man be the necessary Object of our Faith as he was conceived by the Holy Ghost born of a Virgin dyed rose again the third day and ascended into Heaven none of all which doth our Light within us teach us to believe but the Scripture without us by way of History teacheth some such things and this is but a Historical Belief which some of our Friends have may be