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friend_n	appear_v	great_a	time_n	915	5	3.1574	3	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A47189	A true relation of a conference had betwixt G. Keith and T. Upsher, at Colchester the 6th of the fifth month, 1699 the truth of which is attested by three witnesses who took it from their mouths in short-hand and afterwards by joint consent writ it out at length : the question stated at the said conference was whether Thomas Upsher's preaching in the forenoon that faith in Christ, as he was born of the Virgin Mary, and dyed for our sins, &c. was absolutely necessary to salvation, ..., and in the afternoon his preaching that the light within ... is sufficient to salvation is a contradiction : and a brief account of the uncivil and illegal treatment used by some principal Quakers at Colchester and Bristol toward G Keith ... : and a postscript, containing some notes and observations on the assertions of T. Upsher and his brethren, detecting their self-contradictions : and a certificate from Parson Shelton of Colchester, to the truth of the case in debate ... and to the truth of the conference / by George Keith.	Keith, George, 1639?-1716.	1699 (1699)	Wing K222; ESTC R14758	20,930	32

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved Now I say this is the absolutely necessary terms of Salvation and if there be no such thing in the Heathen to teach them this and seeing th●re is no such Manifestation in the Gentile Heathen World that discovers or teacheth this then there is no Manifestation in them sufficient to Salvation T. U. He hath not proved that the Manifestation of God and Christ in his Light to all Men doth not give nor can give to Man that which is necessary to Salvation because he cannot bring one word of absolute necessity or that saith after this manner that without this and this kind of knowledge they cannot be saved G. K. The Light within teache them and all Men even the Heathens that I must not commit Murther Adultery nor be Drunk c. I find in Scripture as positively Faith in Christ without us required to remission of Sin and eternal Salvation as obedience to the Light within us 1 Cor. 1. 21. T. U. I should be loath to be so uncharitable to the poor Heathens which live up to their Light as G. Keith is G. K. I am no more uncharitable to the Heathen than you or any Man I dare not conclude that any of the Heathens that live vertuously are damned What is wanting to Heathens in respect to the outward God may make up to them in an inward extraordinary Manifestation What do we know what God may reveal to them in a dying Hour T. U. I never did declare that the Light within without the outward Manifestation of Christ is sufficient for Salvation G. K. Whither Tho. did not speak to this purpose That the Light within without Faith in Christ is sufficient for Salvation I apprehend I have proved by his Paraphrases on those Scriptures that he brought from those Scriptures say I Tho. did say That this Light or this inward Manifestation is enough for the Salvation of Man then say I if one thing be enough there needs not two If this be enough then there is no need of that Faith in Christ that he mention'd in the Morning which is a Contradiction In the Conclusion divers of T. Upsher's Friends gave this Consession and so did he viz. It is necessary to Salvation to believe in Jesus Christ that was born of the Virgin Mary and was Crucified without the Gates of Jerasalem and is ascended into Heaven and is there in Glory and from thence will come without us at the end of the World this we acknowledge to be our absolute Belief and that he is ourwardly to come in a glorified Body This they owned as necessary to believe to those that live in the Christian World Parson Shelton told them This plainly did contradict the Doctrine in their Friends Books however he was glad of this their Confession now We having carefully compared and thoroughly examined do affirm this to be a true Copy of the Conference between G. Keith and T. Upsher the 6th of July 1699. Witness our Hands Edw. Brasier Tho. Streaton Arthur Winsley Junior This 6th of July was the 5th Day of the Week next to that 1st Day wherein G. Keith had charged T. Vpsher with Contradiction A BRIEF ACCOUNT OF THE Uncivil TREATMENT Vused by some principal Quakers at Colchester and Bristol towards G. Keith and some other material Passages in his Travelling through several places in the Country this and the former Summer THE occasion of the above mentioned Conference the true Relation whereof is above given was That whereas G. Keith at the publick Meeting-House of the People called Quakers at Colchester the Second of the First Month 1699 in the Afternoon had affirmed That T. Vpsher had contradicted in the Afternoon what he had Preached in the Forenoon the which T. Vpsher denied and put G. Keith to prove it whereupon it was mutually agreed by them both to debate it before Witnesses on both sides on the 6th of that Instant following as was accordingly done The Moderators chosen to regulate the Debate were William Shelton a Minister of the Church of England in Colchester and Samuel Rider a Presbyterian there But it is sit the Readers should be further informed of some other Particulars relating to the Difference betwixt T. Vpsher and his Friends at Colchester and G. Keith and some of his Friends there one of which is That whereas T. Vpsher did offer a Conference with G. Keith in order to defend his Doctrine from being a Contradiction G. Keith did readily accept it on the Condition that he would agree to debate it with him before Witnesses whether T. Vpsher had done justly and Christianly at a Meeting in Great Staten in Huntingtonshire in the Month called August 1698. to pronounce Woes and Curses in the Name of the Lord against G. Keith and all that adhered to him that were there present and came to hear him which were many reckoned in the U●ity with T. Vpsher and his Friends saying God would confound destroy and dash to pieces both him and them which he said he was moved by the Lord so to affirm as many are ready to witness if he deny it but this Condition T. Vpsher would by no means agree unto Another is that whereas G. Keith had been accused at the said Meeting at Great Staten in Huntingtonshire by T. Vpsher that he was an Apostate and had wronged and perverted Friends Books in his printed Narratives and that he offered to prove it against him providing G. Keith would begin to dispute with him the next day G. Keith replied He was very desirous to hold the Debate with him but it was well known to divers there present he could not begin any such Meeting for Debate next Day being under an Engagement to be at a Meeting at Bedford next First Day which was the Day following but he was ready to engage with him the Third Day following which T. Vpsher by no means would yield unto alledging for his Excuse the great need he had to be at home which to many appeared fallacious because he had before proffered to hold the Dispute with G. Keith for two Weeks together if he would begin next Day R. Bridgeman a Friend at Huntington did propose to have the Meeting for the Debate begin next Day and he would undertake in defence of G. Keith that he had not wronged the Friends Books in his said Narratives and proffered to hold a Dispute with T. Vpsher on that account until G. Keith should have time to return to manage the Dispute by himself but this T. Vpsher would not agree unto Some few Days after in the 6th Month called August 1698. G. Keith came to Colchester and in the publick Meeting of the Friends there put T. Vpsher in mind of his former promise to ingage in Dispute with G. Keith in order to prove him an Apostate and a perverter of Friends

Books in his said Narratives telling him He hoped he had time now to do it being at home but T. Vpsher replied Since his former offer was not accepted he found himself clear of any such Engagement And now again in the beginning of the 5th Month called July 1699. T. Vpsher refused to ingage in any such Debate with G. Keith though earnestly desired by him And the like proffer he made to the principal Friends called Quakers at Colchester That whereas they had the last Summer sent out a Paper against him signed by many Hands charging him to be an Apostate and an Enemy to Truth and Friends they would now make that one of the Matters of debate as well as this viz. Whether T. Vpsher had contradicted himself But by no means would either he or they assent to any such Debate save only that it might be debated before sufficient Witnesses Whether G. Keith could prove a Contradiction in T. Vpsher's Doctrine to himself expecting that they might have some advantage against G. Keith if the Subject of the Debate should be confined to that alone Particular But why they were not as willing to debate other Matters with him as well as that which yet were of greater moment than that as whether T. Vpsher had contradicted himself it being very common both to him and his Brethren to Preach Inconsistencies and Contradictions in great plenty is easie to be understood even because they knew they were never able to prove against G. Keith that he was an Apostate or Enemy to Truth or guilty of any of the hard Names they had given him And therefore the further to detect them and to leave them without Excuse G. Keith did yield to have a Debate with T. Vpsher only upon that single Head viz. Whether T. Vpsher was guilty of Self-contradiction The which is now left to the Judgment of the Impartial Reader after he has viewed and considered the foregoing Contents And here let it be noted that on the said First Day at Colchester Meeting the 2d of the Fifth Month called July 1699 in the Forenoon after G. Keith had peaceably sat and heard T. Vpsher and their other Preachers and stood up to Speak he was most uncivilly and contrary to the Act for Tolleration interrupted by many of their principal Men called Friends who cried out against him Thou Apostate hold thy peace this House is ours thou hast no right to speak in it without our consent G. Keith replied He was no Apostate and if they thought him to be such they ought to prove it and their Proof he desir'd to have They told him Friends at London had judged him to be such and they stood to their Judgment G. Keith replied That was downright Popery to believe as the Church believed by an implicit Faith and as for their right to the House his Right was as good as theirs until they did prove that he had forefeited his Right which he formerly had all being Tenants in common and that place being no Man 's proper Right but free to all travelling Friends of the Ministry among that People and to him as well as to any of them until they did prove that he was no Friend of Truth which he believed they could never do he retaining all the common Marks of a Friend and that he had better Principles than they that was no bad sign of his being a Friend of Truth But they continuing in their uncivil and illegal manner of interrupting him which many friendly People that were present who were desirous to hear G. Keith both of the Church of England and Dissenters did blame them for being illegal as well as uncivil and unchristian some Constables seeing the Peace broke being called upon by several to keep the Peace took away one called a Quaker before the Mayor for his illegal Behaviour who threaten'd to bind him over to the Peace though divers others were as rude and uncivil as he especially they of the richer sort In the Afternoon the Mayor sent several Constables to keep the Peace which they broke as much in the Afternoon as in the Forenoon crying out at G. Keith while he was speaking and calling him Apostate and Enemy of Truth the which great disorder and interruption the Constables who in the Afternoon were sent to keep the Peace soon did quiet by telling them who made the greatest Interruption who generally were the richest Men among the People called Quakers in that place that they would take them away to the Mayor in order to have them bound over if they would not forbear whereupon they generally in great haste went away and as fast as they thronged to go out as fast did many more throng to get in who were not Quakers but sober and friendly People of the Church of England and of the Dissenters of several sorts who had a desire to hear G. Keith and did hear him after the Friends did generally withdraw some few remaining that were his Friends in that place and some others that were friendly affected towards him On the 4th Day following G. Keith did again go to their publick Meeting place which they suspecting that he would do and speak again in their Meeting as he did the foregoing First Day which gave great content to many and was a great trouble to his Adversaries to find them so exposed and their great and vile Errors so detected by G. Keith they set Men at the Door to keep him out so that when he essayed to get in they hindred him This gave occasion to G. Keith to go to the Mayor and complain of their uncivil and illegal treatment who forthwith commanded two Constables to go to their Meeting to make free entrance for him as accordingly was done whose Generosity as well as Justice in that Affair is greatly commendable and worthy of imitation by Persons of his Quality and Station but after he came in and waited patiently till their Ministers had done and then stood up to speak they bid the Friends withdraw the Meeting they said was ended and as many of them were going out and others coming in desirous to hear G. Keith that were not of their Profession they shut the great Door bolted and barr'd it and knocked in the Barrs that the People that were got in might not open them leaving only a little private Door open that few but themselves knew and indeed they made such disorder and especially the richer sort of them that it was a shame to see it to behold their rude actions and hear their outcries against G. Keith many crying to him at once and pulling him by the Sleeve to be gone insomuch that a Friend there present said It seemed like Bedlam let loose The like Incivility and illegal Proceedings the People called Quakers at Bristol used against G. Keith the 23d of the Month called July 1699. who offering peaceably to come into their Meeting-House was stopt by a great Guard of them they had set at