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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A63577	A true narrative of the Portsmouth disputation, between some ministers of the Presbyterian, and others of the Baptist, persuasion, concerning the subjects and manner of baptism held in Mr. Williams's meeting-place there on Wednesday, Feb. 22. 1698/9. The managers for the Presbyterians were, Mr. Samuel Chandler of Fareham. Mr. Leigh of Newport in the Isle of Wight. Mr. Robinson of Hungerford in Berks, moderator. For the Baptists were, Dr. William Russel of London. Mr. John Williams of East Knoyle in Wiltshire. Mr. John Sharp of Froome in Somersetshire, moderator. Transcribed from two copies taken at the dispute; the one by Mr. Bissel Town-Clerk of Portsmouth, and the other by Mr. Samuel Ring. Revis'd and publish'd by Dr. William Russel.	Bissel, Mr.; Ring, Samuel.; Russel, William, d. 1702.	1699 (1699)	Wing T2806A; ESTC R215290	67,061	90

way of Baptizing whatever he might say in the time of the Dispute because he did say to divers persons That if it had been in a private Conference where there had been but a few Persons of a side he should have made several Concessions which he was not willing to make in so great an Assembly And therefore I will not charge those extravagant Expressions of Mr. Chandler's upon him i. e. That Dipping was always used as a Token of Displeasure And surely Mr. Chandler had mightily forgot himself when he said so for Naaman the Syrian was commanded to Dip himself not in a way of Vengeance and Wrath but in a way of Mercy and he found it to be so for he was perfectly cured of his Leprosie thereby I would advise Mr. Chandler to read over Rom. 2. 1 2 3. and consider how sharply the Apostle reproves such that condemn others and yet do the same things themselves and saith Thou art inexcusable O Man whosoever thou art that judgest for wherein thou judgest another thou condemnest thy self for thou that judgest doest the same things How can he or any of them condemn our Practice when themselves can do it to satisfie a Scrupulous Conscience or c. And especially Mr. Leigh who confesses it to be according to the Word of God And Mr. Erle hath done it by their Consent I shall now give you an Account from another hand written from Gosport in which after he hath signified his respects to me c. he thus saith Although they look on your Arguments to be of little weight yet we think them to be of too great weight for them to answer with all their Cunning. I hope those that were unprejudic'd will receive some Light though they endeavoured as much as in them lay to darken Counsel with their mutinous Carriage But Truth will be Truth still in spight of all its Opposites and will shine though they would cloud it This was written after that vain boasting Advertisement of the Presbyterians in the Post-man which was very pleasing to their Party at London and made so great a Noise all over the Nation as if they had gotten some great Victory although in truth it was nothing so as will evidently appear by this Narrative But my Friend proceeds saying I hope this Account I have herewith sent you will come safe to your hands wherein you may see some of their Curiosity whereby they say they have confounded your Sophistry Four things I observed in their Proceedings which to me condemned their Cause I. The want of so much as one bare Instance in Scripture to confirm their Practice of Infant Baptism II. When they required an Instance of a Believers Child Baptized when adult and promised when produced they would give us the Cause which Instance was given and yet they persisted in it as before III. Their appealing to the People to give their Assent that they were satisfied with Mr Leighs Argument from Matth. 19. 4. Of such is the Kingdom of Heaven by holding up their hands and it was observed there were but few that did hold up their hands in comparison of so great a Multitude supposed by some not to be one in fifty and by others a much fewer number so that they were far from having the Opinion of the People on their side by way of Approbation whatever they may say of themselves which was not a little Mortification to them IV. When they could not obtain it by Right they would have it be theirs by might And this was evidenced by their repeated Clamours which was not when duly considered to their Honour Besides There have been two Concessions made since the Dispute by themselves which were these 1. That there was Credit gained to our Cause by this Dispute 2. That there was Truth and Christianity in it For my part I am satisfied in what was said and so are our Friends c. Sir This is but some and considering the Procedure was so clamorons it may be said to be some of the Spoils won in Battel where Innocence and Rancour encountred I should be glad to hear of your Welfare and desire an Interest in your Prayers as oft as you go to the Throne of Grace Yours c. Gosport March 11. 1698-9 I will give you an Abstract of another Letter from a worthy Person in those Parts directed to me who was an eye and ear Witness of what past In which after Christian Salutations he saith I hope these Lines will find you in Health after your tedious and uncomfortable Journey which I hope may bring some Glory to God notwithstanding the great Rage that the c. was in Indeed they had no other shift to save their Reputation but by casting out a Flood acting the part of the Serpents hiss amongst the worst I do understand several were convinced by their Rudeness and they are since Baptized I think it may be convenient to take away the Cloud from the Common People by exposing what was delivered in the Dispute to publick view and by adding that which they would not then hear I mean that which relates to the manner of Administration You may consider of it 'T is pity they should glory in their shame deceiving the World Dear Friend I thank you for all your Labour of Love Your Preaching and Behaviour was to me very acceptable and to all our Friends c. Gosport March 6. 1698-9 By these Testimonies you may see that the Presbyterians had no Cause to publish what they did to the World except it were to keep up their declining Reputation After the Dispute was ended and I was returned to my Lodging Mr. Williams told me he would go to his Namesake's house to talk with the Presbyterian Ministers that were there I desired him to remember my Love to them and let them know that I could dispute with Men and yet love them notwithstanding but desired him to tell Mr. Robinson their Moderator that I took it very unkindly at his hands that he should transgress so much as he had done against the Rules of Dispute and be so abusive as he was so as to give the Lye for he said in the midst of the Dispute with a loud Voice That is a Lye and yet could not make any thing out about it and for his Misrepresentation of what I had said particularly upon that Argument about the Beasts of the Field not being capable c. And when Mr. Williams came to see me before I left Portsmouth he told me that he had delivered my Message to them and that Mr. Williams the Presbyterian Minister did acknowledge that Mr. Robinson had exceeded his Bounds and that he did abuse me in his misrepresenting of me to the People upon that Argument I answer'd It was well he had acknowledg'd it now but it had been better if he had done it before the People Mr. Williams the Baptist Minister was pleased to communicate this Account to me by Mr. Sharp

and to come up again out of the Water when they were never in it as those are said to do in Acts 8. 38. They went both down into the Water and they came up again out of the Water Besides I challenge all the Learned in the World to shew one Instance in the New Testament that these words Rantizo Rantismos or Rantisma are ever made use of by the Spirit of God to express that Ordinance of Baptism by For they know right well that Bapto and its Derivatives are always made use of to express it by And where they are translated into English the one is rendred Dipping and the other Sprinkling But if these Men will keep up a Practise contrary to Holy Scripture and the Judgment of the most Learned Lexicographers and Criticks in the Greek Tongue it 's their own fault and not ours The Assembly of Divines Annotations Acts 8. 38. They went both down into the Water They were wont to dip the whole Body or go down into the Water as here and Matth. 3. 16. And upon Rom. 6. 4. Buried with him by Baptism See Col. 2. 12. In this Phrase the Apostle seemeth to allude to the Ancient Manner of Baptism which was to Dip the Parties Baptized and as it were to bury them under the Water for a while and then to draw them out of it and lift them up to represent the Burial of our Old Man and our Resurrection to newness of Life The late Dr. Gabriel Towerson in his Explication of the Catechism of the Church of England Part 4. pag. 20 c. speaks largely upon it in Vindication of the Rite of Dipping in Baptism of which I shall recite some few Passages and refer you to his Book for the rest Baptism is intended as a Sign and that in respect of the Manner of Application used I mean the dipping or plunging the Party Baptized in it A signification which St. Paul will not suffer those to forget who have been acquainted with his Epistles for which he Quotes Rom 6 4. and Col. 2. 12. It was performed by the Ceremony of Immersion that the Person Immersed might by that Ceremony which was no obscure Image of a Sepulture be minded of the precedent Death as in like manner by his coming again out of the Water of his rising from that Death to Life after the Example of the Institutor thereof Then he puts this Question Whether it ought to be performed by an Immersion or an Aspersion c His Answer is It may be a more material Question than is commonly deemed by us who have been accustomed to Baptize by a bare Effusion and Sprinkling of Water upon the Party For things which depend for their force on the meer Will and Pleasure of him who Instituted them there ought no doubt great regard to be had to the Commands of him that did so as without which there is no reason we should receive the benefit of that Ceremony to which he has been pleased to annex it Now what the Command of Christ was in this particular cannot be well doubted of by those who shall consider First The words of Christ Matth 28. 19. concerning it and the Practice of those Times whether in the Baptism of John or our Saviour for the words of Christ are That they should Baptize or Dip those whom they made Disciples to him for so no doubt the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Baptizontes properly signifies Though if there could be any doubt concerning the signification of the words themselves yet would that doubt be removed by considering the Practice of those Times For such as was the Practice of those Times in Baptizing such in reason we are to think our Saviour's Command to have been concerning it c. there being not otherwise any means either for those or future Times to discover his intention concerning it What the Practice of those Times were will need no other proof than the resorting to Rivers and other such Receptacles of Water for the performance of that Ceremony as that because there was much Water there Matth. 3. 5. John 3. 23. And the Scripture expresly affirming concerning the Baptism of the Eunuch Acts 8. 38. That Philip and the Eunuch went both down into a certain Water which they met with in their Journey in order to the Baptizing of the latter For what need would there have been of the Baptists resorting to great Confluxes of Water or of Philip's and the Eunuch's going down into this were it not that the Baptism both of the one and of the other were to be performed by an Immersion a very little Water as we know it doth with us sufficing for an Effusion or Sprinkling The same is to be said yet more upon the account of our conforming to the Death and Resurrection of Christ which we learn from St. Paul to be the design of Baptism to signifie for though that might and was well enough represented by the Beptized Persons being buried in Baptism and their rising out of it yet can it not be said to be so or at least but very imperfectly by the bare pouring out or sprinkling the Baptismal Water on him But therefore as there is so much the more Reason to represent the Rite of Immersion as the Only Legitimate Rite of Baptism because the Only One that can answer the ends of its Institution and those things that were to be signified by it so especially if as is well known and undoubtedly of great force the general Practice of the Primitive Church was agreeable thereto and the Greek Church to this very Day for who can think that either the one or the other would have been so tenacious of so troublesom a Rite were it not that they were well assured as they of the Primitive Church might very well be of its being the Only Instituted and Legitimate One. I cannot but think the forementioned Arguments to be so far of force as to evince the necessity thereof c. For what benefit can Men ordinarily expect from that which depends for its force upon the Will of him that Instituted it where there is no such compliance in the least with it and the Command of the Institutor as may answer those ends for which he applied it Dr. Barlow late Bishop of Lincoln in his Letter to Mr. John Tombes Printed in his Life-time and owned by him He saith thus I believe and know that there is neither Precept nor Practice in the Scripture for Paedo-Baptism nor any just Evidence for it for about two hundred Years after Christ Sure I am that in the Primitive Times they were to be Catechumeni and then Illuminati or Baptizati And this not only Children of Pagans or Pagans Converted but Children of Christian Parents Nazianzen though a Bishop's Son being not Baptized till he was about Thirty Years of Age as appears in his Life And the like is evident in some others I have seen what my Learned and Worthy Friend Dr. Hammond Mr. Baxter and others say in defence of it and I confess I wonder not a little that Men of such Parts should say so much to so little purpose For I have not seen any thing like an Argument for it I shall add no more but my hearty Wishes That as God was pleased to make the Hearing of the Dispute of such use to several Persons that they were fully convinced by the Grace of God towards them of the Truth of the Doctrine of Holy Baptism and did in few Days after submit themselves to be Dipt in Water upon Profession of their Faith according to the Commission of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ That it may also be of the like use to many others in the Reading of it that so there may be added to the Church daily such as shall be Saved And then my design will be answered in its Publication and I shall count it a sufficient Reward for all my Pains and Labour therein FINIS

our Moderator Feb. 23. 1698-9 Mr. Leigh and himself being together at Mr. Williams's House in Portsmouth there came in Mr. Erle Mr. Bowler and Mr. Farrel three Presbyterian Ministers and there was two other Baptists present at the same time Mr. Farrel in the Presence of the forementioned Ministers saluted Mr. John Williams the Disputant after this manner Mr. Williams I must tell you and that not as my own Sentiments only but as the Sentiments of every one of our Brethren that what Credit was gained to your Cause was gained by you Mr. Leigh asked Mr. Williams whether we did infer from those words That the Ministers had granted out of their own mouths that we had gained the Cause His Reply was No all that we infer from it was this That it was an implicit Concession that there was Credit gained to our Cause Mr. Leigh said How much Credit did we infer was granted by them to our Cause Mr. Williams said We do not know the quantity of it Mr. Leigh replied Truly it was but a little Credit that was granted out of our own mouths that was gained to your Cause To which Mr. Williams answered That if there was a little Credit granted out of their own mouths then there was Credit gain'd to our Cause granted by themselves which was no farther denied by Mr. Leigh But what was spoken by Mr. John Williams in the Dispute was abundantly shorter than what Dr. Russel did then speak Thus far as to Mr. Williams's Account Notwithstanding all this whilst they were making these Concessions at Portsmouth they let fly an Advertisement after Dr. Russel to London which was Printed and Published before he got home for as Mr. Williams said they knew who had hurt them Here follows a true Copy thereof The Post-Man Feb. 25. 1698-9 Portsmouth Feb. 23. Yesterday the Dispute between the Presbyterians and Anabaptists was held in the Presbyterian Meeting-house It began at Ten of the Clock in the Morning and continued till Six in the Afternoon without any Intermission The Theme of the Dispute was the Subjects of Baptism and the Manner how Baptism is to be performed Russel and Williams were the Opponents for the Anabaptists and Mr. Chandler and Mr. Leigh Defendants for the Presbyterians Mr. Sharp Moderator for the former and Mr. Robinson for the latter Mr. Russel opposed Infant-Baptism with all the Subtilty and Sophistry of the Schools and was answered with good Reason and Learning Upon the whole it was the Opinion of all the Judicious Auditory the Presbyterians sufficiently defended their Doctrine and also worsted their Adversaries when they came to assume the place of Opponents We being silent and not using the same Methods as they did to squirt out foolish Advertisements in common News-Papers these Men grew confident and upon the 1st of April following in the Flying-Post they publish a long Story full of Vntruths and filly squint-ey'd Reflections not becoming their Learning or Profession and all to support a sinking Interest But it appeared so manifestly partial that there seemed to be little or no credit given to it except by some few of their own Party For although they were so civil to give themselves the Title of Master they grutched to speak so honourably of their Opponents And in the second Paper they say one Mr. William by some called Dr. Russel of London c. All that I shall say to it is this As I am a Minister of Christ and of the Churches I can through the Grace of God bear all the Indignity and Contempt they can put upon me if I by so doing can but do good to Souls and bring the least Tribute of Honour to my Lord and Master thereby I thank God that he enabled me to count the Cost before I was ordained to the Work of the Ministry and therefore if Reproaches yea Bonds and Afflictions abide me it is no more than I looked for But what Reason these Men have to refuse to give me the civil Title of Doctor I know not neither do I care But this I know that many years since I was not only admitted as Master of Arts but took my Degree of Batchelor in Physick and was after that Created a Doctor in Physick of the famous Vniversity of Cambridge and also admitted by universal Consent to be a Member of the Senate there and that not as some have suggested as if it had been only ex gratia Yet these Men even whilst I was in Portsmouth as well as since have reported among the People there that I was Russel the Mountebank a Man that hath been dead several years They thought perhaps by such Artifices to lessen the Peoples Opinion of me But by making me little they make themselves the less in that such Giants as they would have the People believe them to be should not be able to conquer such a Pigmy as they have represented me in the Eyes of the Vulgar They have also reported That I am a Hackney Disputant and that I refused to come down to Portsmouth under thirty Guinea's but that at last I was prevail'd upon to take Twenty I did not trouble my self whilst I was at Portsmouth to confute them in it because our Friends there knew how to do it themselves for they knew the Report to be altogether groundless and false But seeing I have this opportunity I think sit hereby to tell the World That I did not so much as demand one farthing of them for my Journey neither before nor after For all that are throughly acquainted with me know that I do neither Preach for Hire nor Divine for Money as some of them do but as I have freely received so I desire freely to give believing that ought to be left to the free Benevolence of the People But that I may do Right to our Friends at Portsmouth and Gosport I do acknowledge that of their own free good Will without asking they did pay my Coach hire and bear my Charges which as they thought it was the least they could do so I can truly say it was the most I ever expected I shall close this Epistle with giving the World an Account of the Occasion of this Publication There were two things that moved our Friends thereto 1. Their Noise and Clamour they made in the Time of the Dispute which bindred the People from hearing what was said especially when they were pinch'd upon an Argument For which Reason it was thought convenient to publish it that what they could not be permitted quietly to Hear they may have the benefit to Read without Interruption and so have leisure to consider it But 2dly The principal Cause thereof was those Advertisements they sent all over the Nation to misrepresent the Dispute and blind the eyes of the Vnthinking about it Whereas this Publication will set the matter in a true Light and let all Men see that they had neither Scripture nor any good Consequences deduced from thence to prove their