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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A36727	A conference between an orthodox Christian and a Socinian in four dialogues : wherein the late distinction of a real and nominal Trinitarian is considered / by H. de Lvzancy ...	De Luzancy, H. C. (Hippolyte du Chastelet), d. 1713.	1698 (1698)	Wing D2417; ESTC R31382	78,348	146

A Conference Between an Orthodox Christian AND A SOCINIAN IN FOUR DIALOGUES Wherein The late distinction of a Real and Nominal Trinitarian is Considered By H. DE LVZANCY B. D. Vic. of Dovere and Harwich LONDON Printed by Tho. Warren for Thomas Bennet at the Half-Moon in St. Paul's Church-Yard 1698. THE PREFACE IT is hard to determine which is the greatest misfortune either to give an easy assent to whatever Doctrine is propos'd to us or value our selves upon pretended difficulties and deny incontestable Articles because they are not altogether free from them It seems to me as dangerous an errour to disbelieve as to believe every thing The one being the effect of a prodigious weakness and the other of an incredible presumption both equally inconsistent with Reason which cannot but be sensible that as there are things visibly false to the meanest Capacity so there are those which the greatest penetration cannot reach and yet are certainly true This carries so much evidence along with it that it is granted in all our Moral and Philosophical inquiries We are witnesses of innumerable events the causes of which we guess at but can give no clear account of The springs of most transactions in the World are hid from Mankind and lie in an unfathomable obscurity plain to none but him to whom Darkness is as light as the Day The same must be said of our search about natural objects Nature so obvious every where has yet secret recesses which all our sagacity cannot penetrate We are agreed concerning its operations but as for their principles they have been disputed of from the beginning and will be to the end of the World The Men of thoughts and reflexion concluding daily that there are on all sides mighty difficulties and never to be overcome But it is strange that this should be granted with so much equity and freedom in that sort of Matters and deny'd of Religion which being of a higher and more abstruse Nature and of a far greater Authority than all the Dictates of Men should by its own weight silence all Objections and put positive Mortals in mind that a transcendent Object ceases not to be because we cannot take an exact view of it and that a Divine Proposition loses not the Character of Truth because we form difficulties against it And yet this is the ease of Socinianism The Gentlemen who have suffer'd themselves to be led into it deny the Mysteries of Christianity insisting on their unreasonableness pretending that they are not oblig'd to believe that of which they have not a clear Notion and with a sort of assurance which becomes no Man and them least of all charging the Sacred Doctrine with the scandalous imputations of contradiction and nonsence This is the design of their last Collection of Prints the perpetual descant in conversation and a contrivance to keep the dispute alive till that being ruin'd they must of necessity set up something else But indeed either we argue to give life to a party or else we act sincerely conscientiously and with a design to find out and establish the Truth If the first God is greater than our Hearts and knows all things He will punish so mean and so sordid an end which does not vindicate but prostitute Religion But if the last I must beg leave to say that there is neither Truth Piety or Modesty in all that noise Is it come to that that I must call a Doctrine unreasonable because my Reason is weak and cannot understand every part of it Do I own my doubtfulness and ignorance in all other things and am only secure and clear-sighted in this Or admit Mysteries in most of Nature's Operations and exclude them only from Religion Happy Man who can tye the Hands of his Creatour and force him to impose nothing on his belief but what is plain and intelligible What high strain of good manners is this to call that Non-sence and Contradiction which the Church of God from the very beginning of Christianity to this time and in all the parts of the World where it is receiv'd has so highly reverenc'd As if our guides in Spiritual Matters had been no more than a company of Mad-men who have fill'd our Heads with crude impertinent and contradictory Notions This is so much the worse in these Gentlemen because they cannot but be acquainted that Philosophy was never and is not to be appeal'd to in these disputes The certainty of our belief depending on a nobler and more infallible Principle even the Authority of God speaking in the Sacred Scriptures The Fathers never doubted but that Difficulties would ever be rais'd in the treating of our Mysteries but thought this sufficiently over-rul'd by the very consideration of God's own determination in that Revelation which he has made of himself Whether these Gentlemen will or no this must be the last resolution of this great Controversy Let them think of it in earnest and they will agree with me that it cannot be otherwise This method I follow'd and urg'd again and again to a Friend for whose sake I writ and publish'd the Four Letters They seem'd to me to have made some impression on him and as he is a Person of Candor he own'd that it was beyond his Ability to Answer but would expect what the Socinian writers had to say to them After some time an Answer came out But as I must do them the justice to acknowledge that they have us'd me in it with a great deal of civility and show'd that deep studies had not spoil'd in them good breeding a fault too too common in Learned Men So I am forc'd to complain that they have not so much as touch'd any one part of my Book But taking no care either of vindicating the unwary Assertions of their Authors or answering those substantial Arguments which were laid before them they serv'd me as they had done others before contenting themselves with a handsome declamation about their new and chimerical distinction of Real and Nominal Trinitarians insisting on the incomprehensibility and contradiction of the Christian Doctrine and what is pleasant enough arguing against its unreasonableness without so much as examining any one of the plain Reasons given for it My Friend then was arm'd with two n w Topicks He would call upon me and ask me whether I was a Real or a Nominal Trinitarian He would maintain that his Reason could not yield to what is unreasonable or be bound to assent to what is Contradictory or at best Incomprehensible I thought then my self oblig'd for his sake in particular and in general for the good of the Christian Cause to which we are all debtors to take a view of these two Engines of the Socinian make This is the occasion of the following Papers in which this distinction is examin'd the dispute between them and us brought back to the true state of the question viz. the Authority of the Sacred Writings The nature of Faith and

Revelation which I own to be the rule of my Faith is for it I say my Reason is against it Revelation and Reason cannot be contrary to one another This would be a greater contradiction than the first God cannot give me Reason in my Creation to be my guide and unravel at the same time those very Principles which he has made a part of my constitution Tertullian de poenit c. 1. says truly and Elegantly Res Dei Ratio Reason is the business and work of God It is by it that he has made us like him after his own Image And can it be so much as thought that that Divine and essentially Rational Being will contradict himself defeat his own work and reveal that which is contrary to the first impressions of Nature You take a wrong way to convince me You say God has reveal'd it and therefore it can be no contradiction You must first prove that there is no contradiction in the thing it self before you can satisfy me that he has reveal'd it Orthod God then must go out of his own ways and his Thoughts are to be accommodated to yours or else cannot be receiv'd You will prescribe Laws to the Divine Majesty It must be made to bow to your weak conceptions and the all wise Creator must stoop to a poor ignorant Creature Pray is this Reason or obstinacy You would fain struggle with a Principle of that mighty clearness and solidity that it commands an assent from all Men and is really the true and last resolution of all this great Controversy If God has reveal'd it you may cry out contradiction to the end of the World There will still be none and you will only shew your weakness Prove that it is not reveal'd and then and not before the business is done shew that your Reason has that character of Authority and Infalliblity which the Scripture has and then talk of contradictions Had you ever known any part of the Mystery if first it had not been Reveal'd How then can you find out contradictions in that which does so much transcend all your conceptions of which you know so little and which does not lie within the reach of our little Argumentations but rests wholly on the Basis of the Divine Authority I beg of you to tell me whether God cannot propose to us any thing to believe which is above Reason And whether what is above our Reason can be said to be contrary to it In resolving these two Questions you answer your Self The Trinity in Vnity is a discovery made by God which is above our Reason and therefore cannot be contrary to it The contradiction cannot come from the declaration of God For God cannot contradict himself The All-wise God cannot utter a contradictory Proposition It is not seated in the thing it self for there is no such thing as contradiction to be imagin'd in the Divine Nature It comes therefore only from our weak Apprehensions And how we can place a contradiction in an object infinitely above all the power and reach of our Reason be your self judge Socin This is the common Subterfuge of your Writers And this they are so pleas'd with that they have made it a general Answer Let them enjoy it to all intents and purposes But I deny that God can oblige us to believe what is above Reason This appears to me an Imposition unworthy of the thoughts which we have of God To be plain Whatsoever is above my Reason is incomprehensible to me That which is incomprehensible is nothing to me I cannot believe what I cannot understand Orthod 'T is because you cannot understand that you must believe Faith is to over-rule your Reason The way to understand is to believe as Isaias expresses it ch 7.9 according to the Septuagint Faith is so far from being destructive of Reason that of the contrary side it improves and perfects it Socin I wish I could be satisfy'd of the truth of this Orthod If the nature of Faith and Reason were truly establish'd I am apt to think that a very great part of our disputes would be at an end Socin Pray let us endeavour at it with Candor and Sincerity It is late now but you must promise me the honour of your Company at a small Dinner to morrow and after Dinner we shall talk fully to this Orthod I hate afternoon studies and afternoon disputes The Body then oppresses the Mind Nor are the Spirits capable of that intense application which the clearing a difficulty requires I give all the forenoon to my thoughts the middle part of the Day to my self and the Evening to my Friends At that time I will wait on you Perhaps I may bring a Friend along with me Socin If he is your Friend he will have neither Pedantry in his looks nor harshness in his manners Do not fail Orthod I will not The Third DIALOGUE Orthod YOU see I am come according to my Promise Socin Not altogether for you gave me some hopes that you would bring a Friend along with you Orthod I design'd it But he had made an appointment which could not be dispens'd with Besides he being wholly in my sentiments it would have look'd as if I had intended to over-match you and oppose two to one Socin I should not have been afraid of that For I think that the defender of Reason has a mighty advantage All Mankind is of his side It is their Freehold and if they part with it to believe impossibilities they make a very foolish exchange Orthod Christianity proposes no impossibilities and is so far from being an Enemy to Reason that it is the most Rational System in the World Things which actually exist cannot be said to be impossible Whatsoever it proposes is of that kind and though a great part of it transcends our comprehensions yet we ought not to deny it but submit to it with an humble reverence Expecting a blessed Life wherein we shall know what we now believe and clear perceptions lucid and glorious thoughts shall make a part of that blessed state which God has promis'd Socin I am perswaded that there will be such a state and that those magnificent promises which God has made us will be fully perform'd We shall know then infinitely more than we do now And if at this time the finding out any Truth so sensibly affects us how much more will it do so when the glory of God shall be reveal'd in us and Truth shall not appear in scatter'd and divided beams or by intervals but as it is in its ineffable Spring But for all that I cannot be sensible that I must enslave my Reason and un-Man my self in running after incomprehensible objects of which I can neither give nor receive any tolerable account Orthod You are so offended at things incomprehensible Pray are you the happy Man who finds nothing of that nature in the World Is it always day with you Do you never feel the cold and darkness