that you can discerne nothing besides your owne dreames In the wordes of Esaie are sundrie circumstances which plainely prooue Sheol there not to be taken for the graue onely The first is the situation of Sheol which the Prophet there saith is below Sheol from below is stirred to meete thee not meaning the dead should be then raised to life but the Ghostes below should be mooued and affected with the suddaine fall of that mightie tyrant It is also there opposed to heauen as the lowest place to the highest for where through pride the king of Babylon said in his heart I will ascend to heauen and exalt my throne aboue the starres of God the Prophet replieth thou shalt be thrust downe to Sheol to the sides of the lake Secondly there are in that place attributed to them in Sheol remembrance admirance irrision and speach which by no meanes can agree to dead carcasses in the graue but to spirits and soules in hell neither had the dead bodie of the king of Babylon any sense sorrow or shame for his foule fall which their insulting in hell against him purposed to impresse Thirdly the cruelty tyranny pride and rage of the king of Babylon against Gods people were greater then to bee requited onely with the graue as were all other men euen the Iewes themselues that were the Seruants of God their most religious Kings It was therefore no way fitting for the iustice of God against his enemies nor for his loue to his owne to menace the oppressors murderers of his people with no more but only with the graue For since God by the same prophet threatned the king of Asshur with Tophet for smiting his people saying Tophet is prepared of old it is euen prepared for the king he to wit God hath made it deepe and wide the burning thereof is fire and much wood the breath of the Lord like a riuer of brimstone doth kindle it how should the graue onely be sufficient to reuenge the outrages of the king of Babylon against the Saints of God whose citie he vtterly destroyed and kept them groning in most miserable seruitude Lastly where you so confidently pronounce the graue onely is there ment a man may soone see how little care you take in setling your sentence since of all other things there specified the graue is namely excepted by the Prophet as no part of Gods threats against that proud tyrant These are his words Thou shalt not be ioyned with them in the graue because thou hast destroied thine owne land and slaine thy people thou art cast out of the graue like an abominable branch as a carcasse troden vnder feete So that heere you are taken tardie with a plain and presumptuous contradiction to the words of the Prophet that where he threatneth the king of Babel for his cruell oppression shall not be partaker of a graue after his death but be cast out as an hatefull care asse to be troden vnder foote you in your wisedome affirme the gâ—…ue is onely heere ment whatsoeuer others thinke yea though the Prophet himselfe expresly say no. With such principles you proppe vp your idle fansies in the Hebrew tongue whiles you would seeme learned in giuing the Prophet the lie to his face But heere you will say is mention of wormes that should spredde vnder him and coâ—…er him and of lying downe to sleepe This is all the shew that can be made out of sixteene verses in that Chapter describing the destruction of the king of Babylon and his issue and yet these wordes neither doe nor must inferre the graue which he should lacke but the putrifying of his body though vnburied and his lying down to death yet not in the graue Neither is it to be doubted but when his soule descended to Sheol below his bodie was dead the one doth not exclude but rather include the other except men descend aliue to hell as we read of some in the Scriptures otherwise the soule is first seuered from the body before she goe to her owne place which for the wicked is the lower Sheol Thus much you might haue learned out of old and new interpreters but that you scorne to be directed by any man farder then your owne fancie doth lead you Of this place of Esaie Ierom thus writeth He that through pride said I will ascend to heauen and be like the most high is thrust downe non solum ad infernum sed ad inferorum vltimum â—…ot onely to hell but to the lowest steppe of hell So the deepe of the lake doth signifie for which in the Gospell we read vtter darkenesse where is weeping and gnashing of teeth And withall we learne that hell is vnder the earth the Scripture saying vnto the bottome of the lâ—…ke Haymo on the same words Hence we learne that hell is vnder the earth whose inhabitants in this place are designed by the name of hell Hell is troubled to meet thee because the angell who is President ouer infernall paines hath stirred vp to meete thee the Giants that is the mightie princes of the earth whom before thou didst heauâ—…ly oppresse Lyra very skilfull in the Hebrue tongue as appeareth by his often citing the Rabbins vpon the same place saith Heere is the insultation of the dead and first against the soule of the king of Babylon secondly as touching the buriall of his bodie Concerning the first we must know the Iewes Catholike writeâ—…s expound this place of Nabâ—…codonosors soule descending to the paines of the damned But it must be referred to Balthasar his Nephew and so it is said HELL That is the diuell the ruler of hell VNDâ—…R THEE because hell is said to be in the deepe of the earth IS TROVBLED because the diuels were busie about the receauing and leading of his soule Bullingere likewise The Prophet goeth on to describe the wretchednesse of Balthasar the wicked king of Babylon When therefore he was thrust through the body in many places by the souldiers that brake into his palace his soule went straight to hell Where two things are to be obserued first that the soule of man doth not die with his body next that hell is appointed as a certaine place for the wicked which heere is auouched to be beneath vs. Oecolampadius Thou art descended to hell and thy glory and mirth with thee And as the body is deuoured of wormes so the soule is tormented with the wormes of an euill conscience These are the treasures of rich and mightie men which oppresse others in this life they cary nothing hence but a wretched conscience into the Gehenna sire where their worme doth not die nor the fire quench Pellican The dead Princes in hell answer one another deriding ech the other vpbrayding violences exercising wrath and indignation raging with impatience and iniuries wormes meate and most wretched with the perpetuall gnawing of conscience euen as in the kingdome of the blessed
vs. In this sense all that the Scripture intendeth by wrath in God is most proper and naturall to God namely his holinesse abhorring sinne his iustice proportioning punishment to it and his power performing whatsoeuer his will and councell decreeth for the repressing or reuenging of sinne For which respect Zanchius a very moderate and considerate writer of our time and one whom amongst others the Discourser iudgeth no way inferior to the best of the Auncients setteth downe this for one of his Resolutions which he calleth a Thesis Ira eo sensu quo scripturae dant illam deo veré proprié ei attribuitur Anger in that sense in which the Scriptures giue it to God is truely and properly ascribed vnto him And his resolutions ensuing vpon the former are not onely that God is angry he meaneth truely and properly as his first Thesis affirmeth with all sinners as well elect as reprobate but that maior grauior est ira dei aduersus homines etiam electos propter peccata quam existimari possit ab ipsis hominibus The anger of God against his elect for sinne is greater and greeuouser then they can conceiue A second signification of proper may be that this wrath which the Scriptures attribute to God is proper to him and common to no creature els Men and deuils haue wrath but that is tumultuous or vitious and hath no communion with Gods wrath which is righteous and holy The Saints and Angels in heauen no doubt detest all iniquitie but they are no fit discerners esteemers nor rewarders of sinne The secrets of the heart they know not whose vncleannesse is open onely to the eies of God The waight of sinne they cannot truely balance he onely that is offended and cannot be deceiued rightly knoweth how farre euery sinne should displease and what euery sinne deserueth As they cannot fully ponder offences no more can they iustly proportion punishment to the demerits of euery sinner and least of all ordaine and arme meanes temporally to afflict or eternally to reuenge the bodies and soules of transgressors he onely that is all-wise all-holy all-iust and allmightie can throughly discerne perfectly dislike euenly reward and powerfully represse sinne by repentance or vengeance as seemeth best to him and therefote he onely is the righteous Iudge of the world and capable of that wrath which is proper to God A third meaning of Gods proper wrath may be this that as euery thing most rightly deserueth his name when it hath in 〈◊〉 permixtion of the contrary to alter his nature so Gods proper wrath may be that which is wholy and onely wrath without any temper of mercie or loue to diminish the heate and hight of wrath That is most properly light that hath no darkenesse trueth that hath no falshood good that hath no euill in it And since Gods iustice against the wicked admitteth neither loue to their persons nor mercie to their miseries that is also Gods proper wrath which is fully and wholy wrath without any fauour or pitie towards them that are the vessels of wrath appointed to destruction Of their damnation S. Iohn writeth The smoke of their torment shall ascend for euer and they shal haue no rest day nor night Wherby it is euident their iudgement shall be mercilesse their worme neuer dying and the fire neuer quenching And how can it be otherwise since they are both haters and hated of God Iacob haue I loued saith God and Esau haue I hated Thou hatest saith Dauid to God all those that worke wickednesse Yea the wrath of God saith Paul is reuealed from heauen against all vngodlinesse and vnrighteousnesse of men For as they regarded not to know God so God deliuered them vp into a reprobate minde to doe vnseemely things Neither is there any greater wrath in this life then for men to be left to the lustes of their owne hearts that they may be full of all vnrighteousnesse wickednesse maliciousnesse haters of God inuenters of euill voyde of all loue fidelitie and mercie and here receiue in themselues a meete reward of their errour to prepare them for eternall vengeance with diuels in the world to come This wrath of God against the wicked hath in it neither loue nor mercie but is wholy wrath proportioned to their desires which are sinnefull and their deserts which are hatefull before God and so they feele the iust and full recompence of their affected ignorance and wilfull disobedience Of this wrath the elect doe not taste they are freed from it in Christ their Redeemer and Sauiour by whose spirit their mindes are lightned and renued and their hearts perswaded to the obedience of faith and by whose death they are wholy deliuered from the wrath to come Of the two former they often taste specially when they neglect continuall and serious repentance to which free remission of sinnes is offered in the blood of Christ Iesus or when through the rebellion of the flesh against the spirit they are caried backe to the desires of their former corruption In which cases the Lord with sundry and sore afflictions letteth them sharpely feele what it is to prouoke the holinesse or abuse the goodnesse of so gracious a Father and neuer leaueth scourging them till they see and acknowledge their vnrulinesse and lament and leaue their vncleannesse taking hope and hold through faith of his mercies promised them in Christ Iesus If it can not be truely sayd of the elect that in this third sense which you vrge they taste of Gods proper wrath because of the loue which God beareth and sheweth them in Christ his sonne how much lesse may it be auouched of Christ himselfe that he suffered all Gods proper wrath on whom nothing was layed for our sinnes but with so great loue fauour and honour considering the cause which he vndertooke that God in each and all Christs sufferings declared him to be the best pleasing sacrifice and most sufficient recompense for sinne that heauen could yeeld or God would haue For whether wee looke to the choise of the person to the measure of his chastisement or to the reward of his labour wee shall see the exceeding and admirable loue and fauour of God towards him albeit the iustice of God kindled against our sinnes did not quit him from all paine yea that very chastisement by which he yeelded and learned obedience did not onely witnesse but also increase Gods loue towards him And where you Sir Discourser cast your eyes onely vpon Gods seuere and implacable iustice against sinne when you speake of Christes sufferings to serue your owne turne and to tole in hell-paines with some pretence of piety all the godly may perceiue and must confesse that God in satisfaction for sinne had greater regard of his holinesse despised by mans disobedience and of his glorie defaced by Satans triumph for our fall than of the rigor of his iustice prouoked by contempt of his commandement For
you be not of your manifest follies But Christ suffered you say the substance of hell-paines though not the circumstances of place and time which the damned do suffer for they are not of the nature and essence of hell To make God the tormentor of Christs soule heere on earth with his immediate hand and so of all the damned soules in hell you brought vs the words of the Prophet Esay the Lord â—…ayd vpon him the iniquitie of vs all for this seraphicall sequestration of the substance from the circumstances of hell which mysterie of iniquitie you begin now to broach what Prophet or Apostle can you produce Dare you Sir Discourser out of the hazard of your owne head pull in pieces Gods setled reuealed and eternall iudgement against sinne and with the worme of your owne wit wrest in sunder the substance of hell from the circumstance thereof What will you not aduenture in earth that attempt this in hell or what shall be free from your forge that offer to make vs a new essence and nature of hell and heauen If you can deâ—…se or intend to mingle your toyes with Gods truth and with sillie sleights of Sophistrie which you thinke Philosophie subâ—…ert maine points of Diuinitie your leasure is great but your labour is leaud In the secrets of the next world none of the godlie euer presumed to debate or determine any thing speciallie touching hell or heauen without the manifest precedence or sequence of holie Scripture You had need therefore Sir Deuiser to be well aduised it is no small presumption and intrusion against Gods wisedome power and counsell to eleuate and frustrate the paines which he hath appointed for the wicked in hell and to coâ—…e fresh and new in stead thereof which God hath not ordained I professe to all the world I dare not depart from so often and earnest words of Christ himselfe nor allegorize the sentence of the Iudge which shall be pronounced on the reprobate both men and angels and executed in the sight of all the elect not by any figures and metaphors but by the terror of the things themselâ—…es matching the trueth of the words which Christ shall vtter And he 〈◊〉 I assure thee Christian Reader I â—…warue not either from the continuall tenor of the Scriptures nor from the full consent of Christs church howsoeuer this Deuiser flatte himselfe in his new inuention But let vs trace him in his owne path and controll him with the leâ—…ell of Gods trueth What can be more substantiall to any iudgement or punishment than the sentence of the Iudge and specially of such a Iudge as with his will word and power decreeth pronounceth and setlâ—…th all things in heauen earth and hell If then this Iudge in his sentence of condemnation appoint the PLACE and TIME to be parts of the punishmenâ—…s inflicted on the damned tell vs I pray you why some parts of the sentence be moâ—…e essentiall to the punishment than others or why all being parts alike they should not all be equally of the substance of the iudgement Depart from me ye cursed unto euerlasting fire prepared FOR THE DIVELL AND HIS ANGELS is the sentence to be pronounced on all the wicked that shall be damned Of the continuance there can be no question but here it is expresly mentioned that it shal be EVERLASTING For the place it is as plaine by the witnesse of the Scripture which maketh no fire euerlasting but onely hell-fire Our Sauiour twice in one chapter ioyneth the one as an exposition to the other and thrice almost with one breath affirmeth euerlasting fire to be the fire of hell It is better to enter into life mâ—…imed than hauing two hands or two feet to be cast INTO HELI INTO THE FIRE THAT NEVER SHALL BE QVENCHED VVHERE their worme neuer dieth AND THE FIRE NEVER GOETH OVT No fire is euerlasting but onely hell-fire Christ therefore in his sentence including the one implieth the other as part of his iudgement against the reprobate and maketh both time and place essentiall parts in the punishment of the damned And when he sayth DEPART from me ye cursed forsomuch as there shal be then no places left but heauen for the blessed and hell for the cursed he doth not exclude them from the one but by appointing them to the other Besides that fire which is prepared for the diuell and his angels is no where but in hell and therefore adiudging them to that fire he doth euidentlie adiudge them to hell fire Since then no man is or shall be damned but only to hell and that for euer the place and continuance are expresse and so essentiall parts of the iudgement and consequently of the punishment that is and shall be inflicted on all the damned For the iudgement which then shall be openly pronounced is immutablie decreed and alreadie reuealed by the Iudge himselfe and therefore vnchangeable to all that aâ—…e or shal be damned and executed on that part of the wicked which is extant I meane their soules assoone as they depart this life though their bodies be yet in the dust as afterward shal be shewed Most vainly then and falsely doe you slide betweene the substance and circumstance of hell-paines since the name of hell-paines doth necessarilie and naturallie import the place of torment where those paines are which is hell and out of which place they are not els might they be called aswell aëriall or terrestâ—…iall paines as hell paines if they were found aswell in the aire or on the earth as in hell But the Scripture hath resolued vs there is a â—… place of torment after this life which is called hell and the torments there so farre exceed all the paines of this life not only for perpetuitie but also for intolerable acerbitie and grauitie that they are iustly called hell-paines as proper to the place where diuels and damned persons shal be punished with euerlasting fire And where you would seeme out of the dregs of Philosophie to borrow the difference of the substance and circumstance of hell-paines you vnderstand not what you say For euen by the rules of Philosophie there are no circumstances in things perpetuall and immutable Circumstances must often varie els are they no circumstances if they be eternall and necessarie consequents Since then time and place do not alter in anie of the damned for all that are damned are cast into hell for euer though all suffer not like paines if there be any circumstances in hell they are rather in the degrees and differences of paine which you make the substance of hell than in the place or perpetuitie of the torment which neuer varie in any of the damned And since you will needs be medling with Philosophie I pray you Sir Discourser if Christ suffered the substance of damnation as you auouch doth not your doctrine plainlie conclude the Sauiour of the world to be damned for which shall truely attribute the name of anie thing
pleasure so it shal be of her paine You affirme not only my meaning but my reason to be this that God temporally and eternally punisheth the soule ONLY by the bodie I vtterly denie that I haue any such reason words or sense but that you purposely haue inserted the word ONLY of your owne to make my reason seeme false and foolish which otherwise is sound and sure You mistooke you will say my meaning you did it not of malice Your mistakings Sir Discourser are indeed very grosse as shall well appeare when we come to your fairest forts but in this by your leaue you could not mistake me except you were bereaued of your wits and senses I not onely prouided that my words should import no such thing as you dreame of but to cleere all cauils when I had made some proofe out of Cyprian Ierom and Tertullian for the second proposition of my reason I moued the question my selfe and answered it with as plaine and precise a deniall as I could deuise to vtter These are my words Do I then denie that the soule hath any sufferings in this life the next which come not by the body BY NO MEANES For though those conioyned sufferings be most answerable to sinnes committed yet the soule hath some proper punishments in this life as sorrow and feare when the bodie hath no hurt from which Christ was not free as appeareth by his agonie and so in the next the soules of the wicked haue griefe and remorse besides the paine of fire These punishments in this world and the next the soule suffereth not by her body nor from her body how then should I meane that God temporally and eternally punisheth the soule ONLY by the bodie or that ALL the soules paine for sinne is from the bodie as you make me to speake both without and against mine owne words Whether this dealing sauour of vnshamefastnesse or no iudge thou Christian Reader as thou seest cause The maner of the Discoursers carriage in the entring and ending of his answer I might not omit Now to his matter The midst of his answer is a medley meet for a man of his learning and iudgement the summe of it is this All my proofs out of the Fathers runne to prooue corporall and materiall fire except the Scriptures by me alleaged which vtterly prooue nothing at all For his part he seeth no reason to beleeue that now there is corporall fire in hell which is only our question or els nothing whatsoeuer shal be heereafter when the bodies shal be tormented with their soules Lastly Austen here doth not proue there shal be such sire after the resurrection be only sheweth the maner how it may be so heereafter if God will Now if the power of God only be all our reason we may as well proue the skie is fallen All the rest of the Fathers say nothing further nor indeed so farre as Austen Whether ten ancient writers all Christian and Catholike fathers relying themselues on the manifest words of holy Scripture and ioyning in one confession of the trueth be not more to be trusted and better beleeued than H. I. of Paules Chaine let the poorest prentise in London iudge As for the Scriptures if you Sir Deuiser and such other busie heads may allegorize them when they contradict your humors from Genesis to the Apocalypsis they shall vtterly proue nothing at all against you for what is there in them which you may not peruert with your fansies and figures if nothing shall be plaine and proper that any way seemeth vnsauourie to your reason The Fathers haue for that which they affirme the exact and euident words of holy Scripture and not so few as Twenty Places of the New Testament witnessing without any parables or allegories fire to be threatened and performed to the wicked in the world to come Whereupon with one consent they haue all resolued and professed it as a setled ground of Christian religion that hell fire to which Christ shall adiudge the wicked at the last day shal be a true externall and sensible fire I meane seene and felt of all the reprobate in their soules and bodies To this our new Patriarck of Pater-noster Rew answereth Austen doth not proue there shal be such a fire he only sheweth the maner how it may be so heereafter if God will Now if Gods power onely be all our reason we may prooue aswell the skie is fallen Gentle Sir if so many vouchers from Christes owne mouth and from his Apostles following their masters steps be no proofe with you nor sufficient witnesse of Gods will you haue some aduantage against S. Austen and all the rest of the Fathers for presuming vpon Gods power without the knowledge of his will but if those proofs be more then pregnant then looke to your allegories lest they prooue you to be a proud presumer against the Scriptures and an arrogant despiser of the Fathers where they accord with the word and will of God It is not enough for you Sir Deuiser to rowze your selfe and say YOV SEE NO REASON you must take the paines to yeeld good reason why you depart from the literall and proper signification of the words vttered by the sonne of God And since you can pretend none but want of power in God to performe the words which he hath spoken in their proper sense all the godly will see great reason to refuse your fansies and figures as idle shifts to decline the cleerenesse of the sacred Scriptures The Scriptures you say shew no more any corporall or materiall or true fire to be now in hell than a corporall worme materiall brimstone much wood and true chaines which I called a sleeuelesse obiection but neither I nor Austen whom I cite against it doth any where answere it Of the worme mentioned in Christes words their worme neuer dieth I shewed you S. Austens iudgement which might content a farre greater Clerke than you Neither is he alone in that opinion Gregorie Nyssene sayth I heare the Scripture affirme that the damned shal be punished with a fire darknesse and worme quae omnia compositorum ac materialium corporum poenae cruciatúsque sunt all which are the punishments and torments of materiall and compounded bodies Basil deliuering what terrours shall be presented to the eyes of the damned in the day of iudgement amongst other things nameth a darkish fire that hath lost his brightnesse but kept his burning 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and a venimous kinde of worme feeding on flesh and raising intolerable torments with his biting Iosephus a Iew liuing in the Apostles times and no stranger to the Christian faith in his oration to the Greeks which Damascene doth mention and Zonaras doth cite speaking of the finall iudgement of God to be executed by the person of the Messias sayth There remaineth for the louers of wickednesse an vnquenchable and neuer ending fire 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and a
firy worme not dying nor destroying the bodie but breaking forth of the bodie with vnceasing anguish Howbeit because S. Austen leaueth it indifferent for euery man to refer the WORME properly to the bodie or figuratiuely to the minde as he liketh best so that by no meanes he thinke the bodies in hell shall not be touched with the paine of fire I left it likewise free for euery man to make his choise and saw no need of farther answer Touching brimstone you may iest at S. Iohn if you list who saith of the wicked they shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy Angels and before the Lambe and likewise of the diuell that he was cast into a lake of fire and brimstone or if you please you may oppose God himselfe and aske whether materiall brimstone were mixed with the fire which hee rained from heauen on Sodom and Gomorre and why hee powred them both on the heads of those wicked ones as if fire alone were not sufficient to destroy them who are set forth for an ensample by suffering the vengeance of eternall fire But howsoeuer you presume to alter or new frame the iudgements of God after your fansies when I reade that God hath rained brimstone and fire out of heauen on Sodom and the cities adioyning and will raine fire and brimstone vpon the wicked as Dauid testifieth I dare not allegorize either of them because I reuerence the word of God which is his will and by no meanes distrust his power For if God will haue brimstone mixed with hell fire to make it burne not onely the darker and sharper but also the lothsommer and so to grieue the sight smell and taste of the wicked which haue heere surfeited with so many vaine pleasures what haue you or any man liuing to say against it yea rather why teach you not men to tremble at the terror of Gods iudgements who can and will so fully punish all the powers and parts of bodie and soule with one and the same fire in hell Your obiection of true chaines and much wood I called sleeuelesse in deed I should haue called it witlesse for but you no man that would seeme wise euer did account it worth the obiecting or answering Who knoweth not that the names of artificiall things applied to Gods iudgement or gouernement must not import with him as they doe with vs things made or prouided with mens handes but the woonderfull works and powerfull acts of God tending to the same end for which these artificiall things do serue with vs As when we read in the Scriptures of Gods sword cup bow booke sootestoole furnace and such like Is any man so foolish as to aske after the Cutler Goldsmith Flâ—…tcher Stationer Carpenter Mason that made those things for God and not rather to looke to the vse of these things amongst men and thence to collect the marueilous and manifest effects of Gods power iustice counsell and prouidence determining and perfourming in this world and the next what pleaseth him against men and Angels The chaines wherewith the deuils are bound Peter calleth the chaines of darkenesse not of mettall which man can frame and they note the ineuitable subiection and immutable condition of deuils plunged in outwarde and inward darkenesse malediction and horror whereby they are now kept vnto damnation without any power to resist or decline the iudgement which shall be pronounced on them That God hath a Smith to make Iron chaines to bind the deuill or a fueller to cut and fetch wood for hell fire lest it should faile these were such meriments to be concluded out of Scripture that if you find no vanitie nor absurditie in them against the trueth and glorie of God you may take the Legend or the Alcoran into your Creede without any scruple of conscience but if these things be more then sottish then deserue your obiections a worse name then I gaue them The Scriptures you say shew no more any true fire in hell then true chaines and much wood To suppose those things to be needefull for hell which are prepared by the hands of men is a very wicked and wilfull impietie For so should hell fire quickly cease which Christ hath said shall be euerlasting And that the Scriptures prooue no more the trueth of fire there then they doe of wood is an open and arrogant vntruth For first all the Fathers of Christs Church and the soberest Diuines of our time are condemned by this insolent assertion as ignorant and absurd teachers who confesse the trueth of hell fire to be established by the Scriptures which of wood they do not Secondly the words of Christ and his Apostles are chalenged to be false For they in plaine speech affirme fire to be in hell which of wood they doe not Thirdly the reason whereupon the Defenders obiection is grounded ouerthroweth all religion in this life and all reward in the life to come For this is and must be the pillar whereto his obiection leaneth The Scripture nameth fire and so it nameth wood and therefore it sheweth the trueth of the one no more then it doth of the other but if the wood be figuratiue so must the fire be Applie this reason to the Church of Christ on earth or to the kingdome of heauen or to Christ himselfe and see whether it will not vtterly subuert them all and make all Gods promises and graces here and in heauen to be allegoricall and not literally true Of Christ God saith Behold I will lay in Sion a stone a tried stone a precious corner stone And of himselfe Christ saith I am the true Vine Were it not braue blasphemie to say the Scriptures shewe Christ to be no more a true God then a true Stone or a true Vine because they affirme of him all three To his Church God saith I will lay thy foundation with Saphires and will make thy windowes of Emeraudes and thy gates shining stones All thy children shall bee taught of God and much peace shall be to thy children in righteousnesse shalt thou be established Shall we say that wisedome peace and righteousnesse here promised to the Church are figuratiue because Emeraudes and Saphires mentioned in the very same place must be figuratiuely taken Christ saith to his disciples I appoint you a kingdome as my Father hath appointed to mee that you may eate and drinke at my table in my kingdome Are all the rewards of the faithfull in the kingdome of heauen allegoricall because this most apparantly is so Proude and false therefore is that surly resolution of yours Sir Discourser who auouch the Scriptures shewe no more true fire in hell then much wood because the Prophet in one place nameth them both and if your obiections be no better let the Christian reader iudge whether there be any cause you should so earnestly call for an answere But let vs view the place whence you
fetch your wood to nourish hell fire and see whether it make no more for the one then for the other Against Senacherib that proud and blasphemous king of Assyria the capitall and cruell enemie of Gods people and Church the Prophet denounceth vengeance in this wise The Lord shall cause the glorie of his voice to be heard and shall shew the stroke of his arme with the anger of his countenance and flame of deuouring fire with scattering and tempest For Tophet is prouided of olde it is euen readie for the King God hath made it deepe and wide the burning thereof is fire and much wood the breath of the Lord doth kindle it as a current or riuer of brimstone Tophet was a place built by hand in the valley of Hinnom nere to Ierusalem made deepe and wide to containe whole Pyles of woode which the Priests of Molech with their deuices and prouisions could readily kindle and raize to huge and mightie flames to inclose and consume the children that were presented to their Idole To this place and vse the Prophet alludeth when he threatneth the King of Asshur and to comfort the Iowes that God had care ouer them he assureth them that Gods Tophet was prouided of olde and readie for the King of Asshur that it was deepe and wide to receiue him and all his retinue and the burning thereof as the fire of much wood the breath of the Lord kindling it as a flood of brimstone That Tophet was a place in the valley of Hinnom a part of Gehinnom BVILT HIE of purpose to burne children in the fire appeareth by Ieremie The store of wood heaped there and the rage of fire kindled there is euident by Esays comparison when he sayth The burning thereof is fire and much wood the breath of the Lord as a Riuer of brimstone kindling it fire and much wood is the fire of much wood to which he compareth the burning of hell for wood without kindling maketh no fire And so the Chaldaie paraphrast expresseth it A flame of sire is there in hell kindled LIKE AS in much wood And to euery man meanely seene in the Hebrew tongue it is a knowen Rule that Caph the note of similitude is often vnderstood in the Scriptures and then specially when it is added to one part of the Periode for example Flie to your mountaine a bird that is LIKE a bird Zion shall be plowed a field that is LIKE a field A Lyons whelpe Iudah from the pray shalt thou ascend that is LIKE a Lyons whelpe All flesh is grasse and the glory thereof is as the flower of the field that is all flesh is LIKE grasse And in this place of Esaie it is so the rather because the aduerbe of similitude is expressed in the next member where it is said the breath of the Lord LIKE a streame of brimstone doth kindle it which argueth that the former part must likewise be vnderstood the burning thereof is A s a fire of much wood which in effect is a mightie flame This then being a comparison what reason haue you Sir Discourser to pronounce that the Scriptures shew no more true fire in hell then much wood since fire was the maine respect why hell was likened to Tophet wood was not and without fire hell is no more like to Tophet then it is to a bodkin which if it be thrust into a mans body will raize paine enough And therefore these amplifications must either vtterly be voyde and import nothing knowen to the Iewes or else there must be fire in hell as there was in Tophet and that like the fire of much wood which is violent and raging and as a torrent of brimstone which flameth all with fire if it be once kindled And since Christ called hell Gehinnam for the resemblance it had to the flames of Gehinnom as is before prooued what maruaile if the Prophet speaking by the same spirite compared hell to Tophet which was the place in Gehinnom where the mightiest fires to burne men were made in his time Or if we follow not the Chaldaie paraphrase to make wood a comparison but leane to the later writers who make it a metaphore and referre it either to the continuance of hell fire or to the sinnes soules and bodies of the wicked feeding and nourishing the fire of hell as wood doth our common fire what gaine you by that If one word in the sentence be figuratiue will you conclude all the rest to be figuratiue so may you as well anouch all the Articles of our faith to be allegoricall because sitting at the right hand of God is a plaine allegorie And are there no moe places in the Scriptures mentioning hell fire besides this of Esaie Or if there be as there be exceeding many which haue no similitudes nor metaphores in them will you allegorize them all because this place of Esaie hath one similitude or metaphore in it whether this haue any learning reason or sense in it let the Reader iudge And because I haue mentioned the opinion of the latter writers making wood a metaphore in this place of Esaie and yet confessing the fire of hell to be a true substantiall aud externall fire I thinke it not amisse to let the Reader see what diuerse of them in true religion and learning not inferior to any of our time haue professed touching either of these points Peter Martyrs iudgement of GEHENNA we heard before who maketh Tophet all one with GEHENNA and saith of Tophet Esaie in his 30. Chapter calleth that place of Gehenna Tophet and fire vnquenchable as hauing much wood and brimstone to nourish it The Prophet also setteth downe the breath wherewith the fire is blowne that it may flame the more siercely Munster in his Annotations vpon the 30. of Esaie saith Gehenna is here called Tophet Dicit habitaculum illud esse igâ—…eum That place or habitacle the Prophet saith is all fierie to let thee vnderstand that the torment there is euerlasting For the vncleane lustes of the mind which here are not purged by faith shall be the nourishment of that eternall flame IN STEEDE of wood and coales And also the conscience within shall afflict the wicked as a kind of fire Hell is perpetuall because the Spirite and will of the Lord giue euerlasting force of fire to it Bullinger in his 90. homilie vpon the same Chapter Our Prophet calleth hell Tophet as our Sauiour called it Gehenna And indeede Tophet or Gehenna did burne and flame with perpetuall fires deuouring their children which seduced with a diuelish error thought they offered them vnto God when they offered them vnto the diuell As then in Tophet wretched men were skorched with fire so in hell all the wicked are tormented with euerlasting fire Therefore hell is rightly called Tophet and Gehenna whose inside or burning is fire that is if thou aske what is in hell there is fire and burning or
whatsoeuer is within hell is nothing but fire God perfourmeth that hell shall flame with perpetuall fire euen as in many places and hilles of the earth an unwasted store of brimstone is found that euen thence we may gather there may be Riuers and lakes of brimstone in hell All these things the Almightie knoweth how to prepare that these torments may â—…itte both Soules and bodies so that we haue no neede to dispute whether this fire and brimstone be corporall and if it be corporall how it worketh vpon spirituall substances The Lord as I now said can fit all these to either part of man that in truth they may be inflicted as well on the bodies as on the spirits of the damned which here the Prophet foretelleth If thou hadst rather dispute against them and wilt not now beleeue these things doubtles thou shalt one day trie them by experience Gualter vpon the same place Esaie teacheth what heil is The inside thereof is fire that is how deepe and wide soeuer hell is it is all fire and burneth euerlastingly For so he describeth the sharpnes of the punishment which the wicked shall there suffer And lest any should aske what matter can suffice to maintaine such a fire the Prophet saith there is great store of wood He that made hell hath plentifully prouided that the fire there shall neuer goe out For filthie lustes and lewd actes not purged by â—…aith and guiltie mindes yeeld perpetuall matter and maintenance to those flames Yea and the bodies also of the wicked shall be incorruptible that they may suffer continuall fire and flame and dure therein He mentioneth also a streame of brimstone whereof the Apocalypse speaketh that we should remember and consider those things which are in nature For so many ages hath the fire of Aetna continued and still doth casting vp flames of brimstone He then that kindleth these things in nature without the helpe or assistance of men he also can kindle and maintaine the fire of hell that it shall neuer faile Musculus commenting vpon the 25. of Mathew sayth Those who measure all things by the rule of reason and thinke nothing firme that cannot be comprehended by mans witte dispute how it is possible that the body should alwaies burne in hell and not consume which is repugnant to the nature of the body They likewise dispute how fire can burne not onely bodies but also wicked spirits which haue no bodies These curious men thinke that to be against nature which is done by Gods will neither doe they consider the nature of all creatures to haue and be that which they haue and are by Gods commandement Others quarrell with the qualitie of the fire and thinke it no corporall but a metaphoricall fire which they take â—…or an exceeding paine and sorrow of minde This they gather out of the 9. of Marke where Christ saith their worme dieth not and the sire quencheth not Here as by the name of worme no corporall worme is to be vnderstood but a great and continuall remorse of mind so they thinke by the word fire no corporall fire but a metaphoricall must be conceaued I take it to be rashnes and not the part of a christian man thus to dispute of the qualitie of this fire but rather leauing the certaine knowledge thereof to the Iudge to prouide that we trie it not one day what manner of sire it is Zanchius very soberly and learnedly examining this question resolueth in this sort It is certaine the diuels together with all the wicked shall be in euerlasting fire and therein tormented Christ plainely professeth he will say to the wicked depart into euerlasting fire prepared for the diuell and his Angels What manner of fire it shall be I dispute not because the Scripture doth not expresse it but this is without question that not onely the soules of the wicked but also their bodies shall suffer torment FROM THIS FIRE and therefore the fire such as may worke vpon their bodies and inflict on them a farre greater paine then our materiall fire doth impresse on vs. What qualitie soeuer it shall be of it seemeth it shall be altogether a corporall creature which may worke vpon bodies and torment them Which being so IT IS MANIFEST the diuell shall suffer paine and torment from a corporall thing I meane from this sire and that euerlastingly therefore it is called eternall and vnquenchable fire And asking your question How is it possible that spirituall substances should suffer from corporall he answereth We haue an example in our selues in whom the soule suffereth many things from the body by her coniunction with it Againe what can resist the power and will of God Let this doubt therefore depart from the minds of the faithfull I produce these later writers of great learning and good religion as I might many moe to let thee vnderstand gentle Reader that I neither presse the Scriptures nor cite the Fathers to any other purpose but to that which by all their iudgements is Christian and catholike and howsoeuer some men otherwise learned but carried with this new conceite of Christs suffering the essentiall paines of the damned to colour their deuise call these things in question yet the most aduised and sufficient Diuines of our age haue clearely confessed that which I teach to accord with the holy Scriptures and to be held of the godly without contradiction The ancient Fathers of Christs Church vphold the same doctrine and teach the fire of hell to be an externall visible and true fire and not a spirituall and internall paine onely as this Discourser intendeth With no speech sayth Chrysostome can any man expresse it here but els where we shal see it most plainely Set now before thine eyes that horrible way which shal carrie thee headlong to the fire and the deuils readie with torments and the persons deliuered to such cruel tormentors These things shal be in that day Let vs alwayes thinke on these things sayth Austen lest it repent vs too late when we come to the sight of eternal fire For the burning pit of hell shal be laid open there shal be a descent but no ascent Call to minde saith Basil that terrible tribunal of Christ which no creature may indure there must euery one of vs be presented to render an account of his life About those that haue liued wickedly shal stand fearefull and grisly angels beholding the sire and kindling it Then shall they see a deepe gulfe and darkenes that no eyes can pierce through and an obscure fire that with blackenesse hath lost his shining but kept his burning Alas saith Cyril what a place is that where is weeping and gnashing of teeth which is called hell which the deuil himselfe abhorreth Alas what a Gehenne of vnquenched sire is that which burneth and shineth not how venemous is that worme which neuer resteth how terrible is that deepe and euerduring darkenesse how cruel in
their torments are those mercilesse Angels woe to the guiltie when the innocent shal be rewarded with honour and they with shame The innocent shal goe to Paradise the nocent into fire vnquenchable The sight of God shal cherish the innocent the sight of fire shal torment the wicked If the fire of hell be visible it must needs be an externall and true fire for internall and spirituall paines are inuisible And therefore the Church of Christ hath alwayes confessed the fire of hell to be an externall and violent force of true fire tormenting the wicked and condemned as an error in Origen the conceit of an inward and spirituall fire in stead of hell fire which this Defender is so much in loue withall Ierom directing Auitus what he should beware in the reading of Origens bookcs sayth Scias detestanda tibi in cis esse quà m plurima iuxta sermonem Domini inter scorpiones colubros incedendum This know that there are very many things in them to be detested by thee and as God speaketh Thou must walke amongst Scorpions and Serpents Where repeating diuers errours of Origen hee layeth this downe for one of those that must be detested Ignes quoque Gehennae tormenta quae scriptura sancta peccatoribus comminatur non ponit in supplicijs sed in conscientia peccatorum quando Dei virtute potentia omnis memoria delictorum ante oculos nostros ponitur ac praeteritas voluptates mens intuens conscientiae punitur ardore poenitudinis stimulis confoditur The fire of hell also and the torments which the sacred Scripture threatneth vnto sinners Origen PLACETH NOT AMONGST externall PVNISHMENTS BVT VVITHIN THE CONSCIENCE of sinners when as by the vertue and power of God the remembrance of all our sinnes is set before our eyes and the minde beholding her pleasures past is punished with the fire of conscience and pierced with the stings of griefe and repentance This error Ierom more plainly expresseth and sharply taxeth in his larger Commentaries vpon the Epistle to the Ephesians whose words to preuent all cauils I thinke best to set downe in Latine as they lie though they be large for that they giue light to the former testimonie Quia sunt plerique qui dicunt non futura pro peccatis esse supplicia nec extrinsecus adhibenda tormenta sed ipsum peccatum conscientiam delicti esse pro poena dum vermis in corde non moritur in animo ignis accenditur in similitudinem febris quae non torquet extrinsecus aegrotantem sed corpus ipsa corripiens punit sine cruciatuum forinsecus adhibitione has it aque persuasiones decipulas fraudulentas verba inania appellauit vacua quae videntur blandiri peccantibus sed magis eos ferunt ad aeterna supplicia Because there are many which say that there shall be no externall punishments for sinne nor TORMENTS OVTVVARDLY INFLICTED but that sinne it selfe and the conscience thereof is punishment whiles the worme doth not die in the heart and a fire is kindled in the soule after the fashion of a feuer which doth not outwardly torment the sicke but possessing the bodie veâ—…th â—…t without any forrâ—…gne inflicting of paine these perswasions and deceitfull deuices the Apostle calleth void and emptie words which seeme to flatter sinners but indeed hasten them to eternall punishment Hell fire by this resolution is a punishment OVTVVARDLY inflicted on the damned and not an inward fire or paine kindled in the minde and possessing the soule or bodie as an ague doth which is an inward grieuance but no externall violence and the contrarie conceit of your spirituall fire in the minde to be hell fire is heere condemned in Origen as a deceitfull and detestable error hastning men to eternall torments The same confession stil continued in the Church of Christ Gregory Quos flamma Gehennae deuor at à visione veri luminis coecat vt for is eos dolor combustionis cruciet intus poena caecitatis obscuret quatenus qui authori suo corde corpore deliquerunt simul corde corpore pâ—…iantur Whom the flame of hell deuoureth it blindeth from sceing the true light that paine of burning may outwardly torment them and punishment of blindnesse inwardly obscure them that as they sinned against their maker with heart and body so they may be punished both in soule and body Isidore Duplex damnatorum poena est in Gehenna quorum mentem vrit tristitia corpus flamma There is a double punishment of the damned in hell whose minds burne with sorow and their bodies with flame by a iust rcward that as they debated with their mindes what they might performe with their bodies so they should be punished both in soule and bodie Bede By the worme Christ noteth the rottennesse as by fire the burning of hell or cls the worme signifieth the ouer-late repentance of sinne which shall neuer cease to bite the conscience of the damned in their torments vt ignis sit poena extrinsecus sâ—…iens vermis dolor interiâ—…s accusans that the fire of hell should be a torment OVTVVARDLY raging and the worme a griefe inwardly accusing Bernard Timor coâ—…turbabit te cùm terra aperietur cor am te iurues caedes in stagnum sulfuris ardent is foetentis Ignis exteriùs carnem tuam comburet vermis interiùs conscientiam corrodet Feare shall amaze thee when the earth shall open before thee and thou fall and light in the lake of brimstone burning and stâ—…king Fire shall OVTVVARDLY BVRNE thy flesh and a worme shall inwardly gnaw thy conscience So Tertullian before them Gehenna est ignis arcani subterraneus ad poenam the saurus Hell is a treasure of secret fire kept vnder the earth to punish withall And Iustine the Martyr The diuels shall suffer punishment and vengeance 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 inclosed in euerlasting fire Arnobius likewise The Gentiles are admonished by the books of their best learned men and verses of their Poets of that firie flood and infernall lake of flames often compassing the place which being prepared for eternall torments they deliuered as knowen both by the demonstration of diuels and by the oracles of the Prophets As the flashes of lightning touch mens bodies but consume them not and as the fires of Aetna and Vesuuius and of other places of the earth doe burne and not spend so that flame appointed to punish the wicked is not fed with the decayes of those that burne but nourished with parching their bodies that waste not And Prosper To heare and reade these things and to beleeue they shall come to passe to thinke how great an euill it is to be excluded from the ioy of beholding God to be banished from heauen and cast into euerlasting fire with the diuell and his angels to see no light in that fire but to feele that it burneth to suffer the
terrible cracks of that flaming fire to haue their eyes blinded with the bitter smoke of that fuming gulfe to be drowned in the deepe lake of Gehenna and to be torne eternally with most greedie wormes to thinke on these things and many such like is a sure way to renounce all vice and refraine all allurements of the flesh Apparently then the fire of hell by the confession of all these ancient aud Christian writers is locall as kept vnder the earth externall as inclosing the damned both men and diuels and sensible to the eyes with obscure flames tormenting all the parts of the body with an horrible paine of burning but not consuming them And that the fire of hell shal be an externall and true fire what proofe can be fairer or fuller than that Scriptures and Fathers with one voice professe that Christ shall come to iudge the world in flaming fire which shall melt the elements with heat and dissolue the heauens and threfore without question must needs be a true substantiall externall fire and that the same fire with which he shall come to iudge shall deuoure his aduersaries Behold sayth Esay the Lord will come with fire that he may render his indignation with the flame of fire for the Lord will iudge with fire There shall goe a fire before him when he commeth to iudge sayth Dauid and burne vp his enemies roâ—…nd about The Lord Iesus sayth Paul shall shew himselfe from heauen in flaming fire rendring vengeance to them that know not God and obey not the Gospel For to such remaineth no sacrifice for sin but a fearefull expectation of iudgement and a violence of fire which shall deuoure the aduersaries Fire sayth Arnobius shall go before Christ comming to iudgement euen fire which shall performe two offices with one and the same aspect it shall lighten the friends and inflame the enemies of God for the fire which shall burne the sinfull shal be made brightnesse to the iust The end of this present world saith Iustine Martyr is the iudgement of the wicked by fire as the scriptures of the Prophets Apostlesdeclare and likewise thâ—… writings of Sibylle so blessed Clemens that liued with the Apostles in his Epistle to the Corinths affirmeth Christ shall come sayth Ambrose with his heauenly army and with fire as his minister to giue vengeance â—…or the sire of iudgement shall serue him to reuenge the reprobate sayth Gregorie Paul sheweth sayth Theodoret that iudgement shal be full of terror noting first the Iudge comming from heauen then their power which minister vnto him who are the angels lastly thâ—… kinde of punishment for the wicked shall be deliuered to the flame of fire There are two properties in fire to burne and to shine the shining propertie the assembly of Saints shall enioy by the other shall wicked men be punished So Basil There are two forces in fire one to burne the other to shine the sharpnesse of â—…ire which punisheth is layed vp for those that deserue burning the light and shining thereof is allotted to the ioy of the blessed And Athanasius Fire hath two forces the one of shining which shall be giuen to the iust the other of burning which shall be diuided to sinners Ierom likewise Fire shal be light to the faithfull and punish the vnbeleeuers And Theophylact Christs comming shall be in flaming fire as Dauid professeth of him A fire shall goe before him and shall burne his enemies round about For this fire shall offer burning to sinners and no shining but to the iust it shall giue light and shining and no heat or burning The fire I trust which hath these two properties to lighten the iust and torment the wicked is an externall and sensible fire and with that fire Christ shall come to dissolue the heauens melt the elements and punish the wicked neither shall the spirituall and internall paine of the soule which the Discourser maketh his hell fire come neere the Saints or be ioyous and comfortable to any as the fire of iudgement shal be to the saints of God Then all sorts of writers Prophets Euangelists Apostles and Diuines of all ages Yea Philosophers Poets and Sibyls haue taught the wicked shall â—…e punished with true fire and not with metaphores and the Sonne of God in person hath confirmed the same and all sectes Iewes Pagans and Christians haue beleeued it God taking speciall care as well by deeds as words that the truth and terror of his vengeance vpon sinne should not be vnknowen to all the world For which cause he hath not only made the earth in many places as Aetna Vesuuis and else where to burne with perpetuall fire but hath often destroyed sinfull persons and places with fire from heauen to let all men see and know that the vengeance decreed threatned and executed on the wicked is sensible and true fire from God which he hath made of all senseles creatures the most violent potent and fearefull meanes to punish Therefore did he raine fire and brimstone vpon Sodome and Gomorre when their sinnes were at full punished the people that murmured at him with fire calling the name of the place THABHERAH because the fire of the Lord burnt amongst them as likewise he sent Firie serpents to bite them when they spake against him So Fire came out from the Lord and consumed the two hundred and fiftie men of Corahs company that presumed to offer incence vnto the Lord as before it had destroyed Nadab and Abihu for offering strange fire before the Lord. And at Eliahs word Fire came downe from heauen twice and deuoured two Captaines with their two bands of an hundred men Insomuch that when Satan would haue Iob beleeue he was punished by Gods owne hand he gate fire to fall from heauen vpon Iobs sheepe and seruants the messenger making this report The fire of God is fallen from heauen and hath burnt vp thy sheepe and seruants and deuoured them Which kind of vengeance Iames and Iohn the Disciples of Christ desired when their master was repelled by the Samaritans and denyed lodging as willing to haue that inhumanitie punished to the example of all others but that they were repressed by him who came to saue and not to destroy Thus hath God often by true and sensible fire from heauen declared and verified the certaintie of his generall and finall iudgement when his Sonne shall appeare in flaming fire to render vengeance to all that know not God and obey not the Gospell and that fire of Iudgement which shall burne heauen and earth shall shine to the Saints with ioy and comfort and punish the wicked by tormenting them for euer This you thinke is not against you for you deny that Now there is corporall fire in hell whatsoeuer there shall be hereafter when bodies also shal be there vnited and tormented with the soules and this
Christ meerely and alone without the merit of his soules and mindes proper suffering our whole ransome were payed The chiefe merit of Christes obedience and patience I referre to the soule of Christ since the body of it selfe hath neither will nor sense much lesse vertue or merit and the sufferings of Christes soule by affections of feare and sorow I haue often affirmed I neuer dâ—…ed The death of Christs soule I vtterly disclaime to haue beene any part of our redemption and so doe the ancient Fathers before me with one consent That you keepe close as it were confession and beare men in hand that I vpholde the meere sufferings of Christes flesh alone without any communion of his soule or minde What tricks you containe in those termes of the soules proper suffering I little regard when you proue that which you pretend by more then saying I will take the paines to refute it with more then denying o Defenc. pag. 89 li. 7. As for our comparing the paines of Christes suffering with the paines euen of the reprobate in this life I sâ—…e not that you or any man liuing can finde fault therewith onely set aside their sinfull suffering which alwayes I testifie that Christ was most free from It is well that not the Scriptures but you compare the paines of Christes sufferings with the reprobate whereby the Reader may perceiue that the first foundation of your new faith is your owne fansie and the best bulwarke you haue for it is the presumption of your owne braine whereto you leane without if not against the Scriptures Then Christ yet at last shall be alwayes and altogether free from all sinfull suffering and then how might his soule or mind apprehend any doubt or feare of Gods fauour towards him or any the least distrust or staggering of his saluation or our redemption his faith and hope standing sure and vnshaken as also the full perswasion of Gods loue towards his person and acceptation of his obedience 〈◊〉 and wholly possessing his heart what feare or sorow common to him with the reprobate can you imagine in the soule or spirit of Christ Tell vs what Christ apprehended or conceiued that should torment his minde with equall anguish as it doth the reprobate Your generall phrases of Gods proper wrath and of the extreamest spirituall punishments are but hiues to hide your poisoned honie in expresse particularly your conceits that we may know whether they sauour of trueth and faith or of errour and infidelitie p Defenc. pag. 89. li 11. Yea I doubt not but we may compare Christes sufferings in his agonies euen with those of the 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 Neither doe I doubt of your boldnesse in this and all other caâ—…s but if you will speake of the Christian faith you must shew vs what Scripture teacheth you to compare Christes sufferings in the Soule with the reprobate or with the damned They be great aduentures to vndertake of your owne head to torment the soule of Christ with diuels in like maner as the damned are or to giue him the same 〈◊〉 of Gods wrath vpon himselfe that the reprobate and damned haue For either of which if you can shew any Prophet Euangelist or Apostle that sayd so before you we will holde you excused q Tertull aduersus Hermogenem If it be not written feare the curse appointed for those that augment or diminish the word of God For my part I haue learned to say with S. Austen r Aug. contra literas Petilia li. 3. ca. 9. In any thing touching our faith if an Angell â—…om 〈◊〉 teach otherwise then we haue receiued in the Scriptures of the Law and the Gospell let him be accursed For Hilarius dâ—… Patris filij essentia of Gods matters there is no speech or doctrine left vs besides the word of God So that if the Scriptures make these comparisons and resemblances we easily admit them if you take vpon you to deuise them as new points of faith we as heartily detest them And if I be not deceiued you will hardly make either of these comparisons good by the sacred Scriptures For you were euen now very busie with certaine places of the Apostle which to my iudgement proue the plaine contrarie Christ t Hebr. 2. must 〈◊〉 like his brethren in all things and consequently in all his sufferings But neither the 〈◊〉 nor the damned are Christes brethren His sufferings therefore were not like theirs And how could Christes sufferings be glorious if they were like the reprobate or the damned Haue the reprobate or the damned any glory in their 〈◊〉 as Christ had in his Father sayd he the houre is come glorifie thy Sonne speaking of the houre of his pasâ—…on By his sufferings then Christ was glorified and declared to be the Sonne of God which if you attribute to the reprobate and the damned you must new alter the whole course of God counsels and iudgements Desenc pag. 89. li. 16. Touching the vehemencie of the paine Christ suffered 〈◊〉 as â—…terly and as sharply yea I may say in nature the very same as the damned doe It must be the selfe same in euery point afore it can be as sharpe and as bitter as theirs Had the damned but one kinde of paine the comparison were the sooner examined but they haue exceeding many both outward and inward and all these must be common to Christ with the damned before Christes paines in sharpnesse and vehemencie can be equall with theirs The griefe of reiection confusion and desperation they inwardly feele the worme of conscience the horror of darknesse the paine of fire breedeth them intolerable torments Yea what one thing doth the Scripture specifie of the paines of hell which with any religion you may attribute to Christ Your generall refuge of Gods wrath will doe you no good not onely the Scriptures but your selfe now at last acknowledge the faithfull feele a taste of Gods infinite wrath who yet I trust feele not the sharpenâ—…sse nor bitternesse of eternall damnation If then Gods wrath in some sort be common to all the suffâ—…rings of men iust and vniust in this life and the next what sequence hath your supposall that because Christ felt Gods wrath in some measure he therefore felt the very sharpnâ—…sse of hell paines x Defenc. pag. â—…9 li 20. If you say the extreamest paines of punishment can not be where sinne is not that is true neither indeed can the least paines be where there is no sinne You be likely to vnderstand weighty matters that so much mistake ordinary points of speech That Christs suâ—…ings must be void of all sinne inferreth not only the integritie of his nature and puritie oâ—… his actions but the sincerity of his affections which could not be distempered in â—…im by any excesse of feare or sorow but as in minde he did apprehend the trueth and not erre by doubting of Gods fauour towards him so in feare and sorow
you l Treâ—… pa. 78. li. 〈◊〉 butted both these as absurd and most false that Christ was made aliue either in his humane soule or by the same I replied that you refuted your owne position Foâ—… if in the former words of Peter his meaning were to say that Christes soule and bodie as you conceaue him were done to death then of necessitie Christ must be quickned and restored to life as well in his humane Soule as in his Bodie And this is so farre from being absurd and false as you proclaimed it that it is openly blasphemous otherwise to saie or thinke that Christ was neuer made aliue in his humane soule if once it were dead as you collected out of Peters words What course now take you to colour these incongruities You ment it was absurd to say that Christes soule was quickned as was his bodie Of the maner of death you speake there not a word but onely seeke to prooue that spirit in that place can not be taken for Christes soule because it is most absurd and false as you say that Christ was made aliue in his humane soule How you will iangle or iuggle touching your intent is not to this purpose you must answere for the sense which you would patch to Peters words The death which Christ suffered in his flesh by Peters assertion was it the death of the body alone or of both body and soule if of the body only then is your commentane which corrupteth Peters words absurd false and wicked Did Peter intend to teach that Christ died in both parts of his manhood that is in soule as well as in bodie then is it a necessarie trueth and point of piety to confesse and affirme that Chist was made aliue in his humane soule which you say is absurd and false Which way will your wisedome winde out of this grinne you ment it is absurd for the soule to be quickened as the body is You ment as best serued your turne but what ment Peter if he affirmed the soule of Christ died as you interprete him must not his words auouch that Christes soule was made aliue except you resolue that Christs soule once dead was neuer quickned againe and though you set a bold face on these contradictions and say you are farre from them yet ech meane Reader may soone perceaue how farre you were ouershot in them though heere you would outface them And where you now say that in such a sense you doe not denie but Christ may be said to be quickned in the spirit what is this but to grant that now which before you called absurd and most false m Dâ—…c pag. 140. li. 37. I hope it is cleere to reasonable men that Christes soule according to the Scriptures phrase may be said in some sort to haue tasted suffered death that is the extreamest feelings of Gods wrath for sinne and the most vehement paines of the damned but in a singuler maner and extraordinarie vvay And to the same reasonable men I referre it whether you haue brought one word or syllable out of holy Scripture concluding that Christ died the death of the soule or the second death The Scripture phrase you haue peruerted and distorted to your meaning but the words are farre from inferring any such thing euen in the iudgement of the meanest Your mittigations In some sort in a singular manner and extraordinarie way What argue they but your wresting of the Scriptures from their right sense since no such thing is there affirmed yea the death of the soule and the second death in the Scriptures are such as you dare not auouch of Christ but with these limitations which are no where mentioned in the Scriptures but are houels to shroud your absurd and false doctrine from the tempest of the word of God conuincing you of impiety and heresie if you did not thus delude the force of them But in vaine doe you seeke for these vnsound refuges when you be once driuen from your footing in the word of God For you must not only prooue by the Scriptures which you neither haue done nor can doe that Christ suffered the death of the soule and the second death as you say he did but you must shew also where these exceptions are written of Christ otherwise they are but shifts declining the maine and generall trueth of the Scriptures touching the death of the soule and the second death which can no more agree to Christ then sinne and damnation which you may as well defend IN A SORT in a singular manner and extraordinary way to be found in Christ as the other And therefore dally not with the word of God and faith of Christ your singular manner will not saue you from abusing the one and defacing the other except you can shew where your assertion as well as your exceptions be written in the booke of God As for the most vehement paines of the damned when you take the paines to prooue any thing otherwise then by the meale of your owne mouth you shal be answered The paines of the damned expressed in the Scriptures are reiection confusion worme of conscience and torment of hell fire which if by your cunning conueyance you cast vppon the soule of Christ you shall cough me a singular and extraordinary miscreant n Defenc. pag. 141. li. 6. Now besides the matter you gird at me in diuers places as where I say the death of the soule is such paines and sufferings of Gods wrath as alwayes accompanie them that are separated from the grace and loue of God This geere deserued more then girding other men vse to blush at such falsehoods but shamefastnesse and you are parted When you had thus grossely thwarted the trueth as to say that the paines of Gods wrath which here you make the most o Treatis pag. 77. li. 5. vehement paines of the damned doe alwayes accompanie them that are separated from the grace and loue of God your Printer or Corrector ashamed of that more then childish ouersight would not take vpon him to altar your text and so to amend your error but with a marginall note bridled your wordes making an addition cleane contrarie to your text For where you said alwayes he said ordinarily which is not alwayes and so he giueth you the lie and yet himselfe is as farre from the trueth as you are For neither alwayes nor ordinarily much lesse alwayes ordinarily which is as much as alwayes sometimes doe the most vehement paines of the damned accompanie them that are strangers to the grace and loue of God and therefore this Laborinth is like your other riddles in religion neither Writer Reader nor Corrector can tell what to make of them nor how to temper them with any trueth But now you will make amends for all p Defenc. pag. 141. li. 10. Forsooth it is true they are alwayes wicked whom these paines do accompanie ordinarily It is the first time I heard you speake