Selected quad for the lemma: fire_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
fire_n	christian_a	free_a	good_a	14	3	2.0819	3	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A11532	A conference betvvixt a mother a devout recusant, and her sonne a zealous protestant seeking by humble and dutifull satisfaction to winne her vnto the trueth, and publike worship of god established nowe in England. Gathered by him whose hearts desire is, that all may come to the knowledge of God, and be saued.; Conference betwixt a mother a devout recusant, and her sonne a zealous protestant.	Savage, Francis, d. 1638.	1600 (1600)	STC 21781; ESTC S106433	62,438	140

woman being excused by ignorance yet compelled by the disciplin● of the Church his obedience excuseth him This is grosse and knowne adultery excused by these holy Catholicks false reason and erring conscience ruleth this kingdōe of darkenesse so shamefully If this be not libertinisme what is Alas why might not this fauour be shewed in Queene Maries daies that an erring conscience should excuse Why were men and women then compelled to doe contrary to their consciences which at worst must be granted to be erroneous consciences Nay see their partiality yet more for if one of their prelats command what a mans erring cōscience stardeth at then they say such a man ought to lay away that his conscience and obey his prelate And why not when God cōmandeth should a man doe the like O blinde guides what doctrine is this if the commandement of an inferiour officer or magistrate bind not when the superiour as King or Emperour commandeth the contrary how may an erring conscience euer bind me against the Lord Gods booke is so farre from allowing this erring conscience and this pretēsed knowledge that it onely alloweth good and suffereth not euill to be done that good may come of it M. Surely I see more harshnesse in the doctrine then I did before But on the other side to compell and force any body by lawes and penalty before the conscience be fully perswaded is it not as harsh and hard to S VVhere there is an honest plaine meaning to indeauour to be perswaded and resolued god forbidde but some time should bee graunted And I thinke it is so in all places But propound the matter thus whether a godly prince after a time giuen meanes graunted to be taught and instructed and after al gentlenes patience vsed his subjects refusing to be taught and contemning that gratious great fauour continuing still perve●sly and obstinately in Idolatrie and superstition whether I say then by lawes and punishments to compel thē to the true worship of God be so harde and harsh And then truth wil answer that it is not but iust godly and fit For not onely to maintaine publike peace is the sword giuen but also to see that God be serued according to his cōmandements ●trieis cal ●amans ●●tum that is both the tables are cōmitted to him the breaches of both ought by him to be punished otherwise man should bee regarded more then God the lesser duties more then the greater In which holy and relious duty hath not the magistrate god for his patterne who after words of admonition giuē to his own elect deare children if they take no place cōpelleth as it were by crosses rods of his fatherly loue to the bettering of their course leauing of euill Yea is not our own practise so with our own children if gentle admonition will not serue wherevpō the saying sprāge he that spareth the rod hateth the child what shall we say to the Scriptures that are as plaine for the warrāt of this matter as we need to desire did not Nabuchodonosor make a law that euery people nation and language which spak any blasphemy against the god of Sidrach c. should be drawn in peeces Dan. 3.29 their houses made a ●akes Darius also made another decree chap 6. In the book of Chronicles Asa destroieth Idolatry cōmandeth his people to serue the true God 2. Chro. 14.14 yea he sweareth them and deposeth his mother for adulterie whose erroneous conscience was in all likelihood as strōg as any Papists for his popery In the book of Ezra we read that the king of Persia made a decree that the Iewes should build their temple that they should haue all things necessarie for their sacrifices that they might offer sweet odours vnto the God of heauen pray for the kings life the life of his sonns Also he made another law that whosoeuer should alter that sentence a penal stat●● the wood should be pulled down from his house and set vp and he hanged thereon his house made a dunghil for this Ezra 6.11 And the god that hath caused his name to dwell their saith that lawe destroy all kings and people that put their hand to alter and destroy this house of God which is in Hierusalem Idarius haue made a decree let it be done with speede After againe which I pray you good mother to marke authority is giuen to set iudges and arbiters which may iudge all the people that is beyond the riuer p. 7.25 euen al that knowe the lawe of God and to teach all that know it not and whosoeuer will not obey the law of God the kings lawe saith that statute let him haue iudgemēt without delay whether it be vnto death or punishment to confiscation of goodes or to imprisonment What lawe did euer any prince make more plaine without any regard to a pretended conscience wanting true grounde out of the law of god For if that might either then or nowe be allowed what lawe coulde holde against which he that list not to be reformed would not obiect his erroneous conscience VVhat gouernment could any prince in the world settle and establish Away therefore with this idle dreame of a pretended conscience and marke how neuer in any gouernment it was regarded after waies and meanes vsed for the reformation of it but euer subiected to the penaltie of the lawe beeing indeede an obstinacy both against god and prince worthy punishment In the newe testament is it not saide Luk. 14.23 Goe into the high vvaies anà compell to come in that my house my be full I forgotte to remember you of that lawe and penall statute made by the king of Ninive Ionah 3. which was so well liked of god but you may now thinke of it and adde it to the rest of the olde testament If we looke at practise Polonia Russia Lituania were forced at the commaundement of their rulers to forsake their auntient Idols Munst Cosm 4. p. 894.902 L. 3. p. 719.74 and to receiue baptisme Good princes also maintained long and sharpe warres to compell the Saxons and Vandals to the faith c. The lawes of this realme blessed be god force to nothing but what is directly prooued in scripture And the constraint is not outragious with fire and sword but tempered with mercy that is free from losse of life and limme such as the true Church of god neuer disliked and Christian princes alwaies vsed with great and good successe It is tempered also with good instruction to forsake error wherewith Christ is dishonoured and his trueth defaced Romish Catholicks revenge the smallest contempt of their idle ceremonies with vnsufferable torments Their prelats make it their occupation to persecute to death all sorts ages and Sexes which refuse their schoole-tricks or dregges of their Clementines or decretalls Howe then can they finde fault with any due compulsion full of mercy and profit to

you tell where or vnder what Pope or Emperour papistrie first began and what Churches then complained of it S. Good Mother your questions still are to good purpose who firsts 〈◊〉 Rome to ●●cline 〈◊〉 for this is an high point with diuers popish writers and these thinke they haue plunged vs when they haue made this demaunde But I am nowe comforted with assurance of your readinesse to heare what on our side is answered which is thus That if these false perswaders thinke as appeareth by this question they doe that the Church standing possessed of a true religion there cannot arise a false but that some either many or fewe must rebuke it it is not so in such errours as creepe in at the beginning by hypocrisie by a great shewe of holinesse as poperie did but onely in grosse and apparent errours it is so Nowe poperie is called of the Apostle a ministerie and why because it is not open to euery eye but vnder a colour and cloake of holinesse so conueieth it selfe into mens hearts and into the worlde that it is not obserued and noted of many and scarce by any Againe as a building maketh no shewe till it be aboue the ground so this synagogue for a time was not noted when yet the worke men laboured harde to raise it and builde it Thirdly wee are admonished and tolde even of this errour that so slie so colourable and so hypocriticall it should be as the very elect thereby if it were possible should be deceiued Fourthly in reason and experience wee see and knowe that tares in the corne are not noted till they bee come vppe the grasse is not seene growing but when it is growen And therefore to set this down that no false religion no errour of heresie may creepe into the church but at the very first it must be noted of some is not true especially of this errour of poperie for it entred not all at once but by degrees in diuers ages and these degrees so small that they they could not more be discerned then the grasse growing The hypocriticall shewe of devotion and good intent letted greatly the woolfe in a sheepes skinne may deceiue Again it is well knowen that these primitiue times were greatly exercised with open grosse and apparent heresies seeking the ouerthrowe of the faith directly manifestly as of Ebion Ce●inthus Arrius and others Diuers of the defenders whereof were of great giftes and so their doings were dangerous vpon which the fathers eyes were bent that it was not possible to obserue little ones creeping in so colourably as I haue saide and so hypocritically If any did obserue somewhat then yet neuer thought they that such small declinings would grow to such an issue as nowe we see and therefore were lesse carefull to write of them and if they did write so many and so great haue bene the losses of bookes since that time by persecutions and troubles That the bishops of Rome did vse to bur● all bookes crossing their errours vide Concil Rom. Concil Constant ses● 8. C●cil Trident. Bellar. Tom 1. contr 5. l. 3. de laicis c. 20. and sundry confusions in the world that well they might perish and bee lost Moreouer the bishops of Rome beeing in credit with the Emperours had euer oppertunitie to suppresse deface and alter writings roules and recordes against them as they thought good whose consciēces could brooke such dealings well inough as we see by experience in the councell of Nice falsified by them to their perpetuall shame Finally the credit of diuers good bishops of Rome at the first did so sticke in the mindes of men that for their sakes the rest a great while after were the better thought of and not suspected as they deserued who indeede succeeded in place but not in vertue and pietie M. Sonne these be good reasons I confesse why the beginning might not be so well marked but yet if it had beene so false a religion as now is saide it could not but haue beene marked of some S. Good mother if what I haue saide bee well weighed it doth fully prooue what I vndertake namely that errour may creepe in vnder colour of deuotion by small degrees in the time of greater grosse heresies and not be noted for a time But if so much may not suffice we answere further to your question that the misterie of Papistrie beeing antichristianity began euen in the Apostles times Claudius being the Emperour of Rome and so continued increasing vntill the time of Sigismund who procured the councell of Constance in which the lay people were robbed of the cup. So haue you the Emperour vnder whome it beganne But for the pope we vse to craue pardon id we cannot shewe him certainly because then there were three popes no man could tell which was the right but euerie man spake as he was affected to one of them And for cōplaints against it the stories make it well knowen that in the time of Seuerus Emperour Victor bishop of Rome bewraying an ambitious desire of superiority ouer other bishopps Euseb l. 5. c. 25 Irenaeus the ancient father Bishop then of Lions Polycrates and many others reprooued him Afterward in the daies of Theodosius Honorius and Arcadius the bishops of Rome Innocentius Bonifacius Sozimus Anastasius and Caelestine vsurping more openly shamfully forging the decree of the Nicene councel were reprooued and complained of by the bishops of Africa in open councell the forgerie detected and decrees made that none in Africa should appeale to any bishops ouer the sea and that the bishop of the first ●ea should not bee called prince of priestes or by any such name of pride but onely bishop of the first sea After this againe when Iohn of Constantinople in the daies of Mauritius vsurped the title of vniversall bishop Gregory the bishop of Rome reprooueth it himselfe and with such vehemency of words ratleth him vp for it as no more can be said against that point of popery Then was Mauritius cruelly murdered by his seruant Phocas and the Empire giuen to Phocas vnder whome Bonifacius of Rome gotte that proud title But the Church of Rauenna with others complained of such pride and would not be subiect for many yeares Many more haue cried out as they could and noted this falling away from truth and pietie to pride and antichristianity But good Mother ponder with your selfe how needles this is to be stood vpon where there is euidence of fault and falshood Doe we not account it folly when we see tares in the fielde to denie they be tares vnlesse we knowe who sowed them what day and houre c. If an house be on fire wee seeke to quench it and stand not to aske who set it one fire A theife taken with the manner is punished Popery compared with the doctrine of the Apostles appeareth to bee tares and we offer that issue if we prooue it what though we knowe not when

the tares were cast into the good fielde Shall not a white head be taken so to be vnlesse the precise beginning of white haires be known A chinke in a wall is spied and mended but the beginning vsually vnknown When the Scribes and Pharises had corrupted religion what bookes doe we reade to be written against them How able were Ioseph Simeon Marie Anna c. to confute them Falshood is falshood though no man write against it And therefore let the doctrine of poperie he sifted whether it be sound or no and the beginning let goe of which yet you see what I haue said M. Sonne you haue said much and still I wish that one of vs would heare another more then we do I see I see it is profitable god hath commaunded meanes and liketh meanes S. Mother many a good man and woman that nowe liueth in ignorance woulde heare and reade but that they are so terrified in holes and corners by false charmers vnder the paine of excommunication not to doe it nor to conferre with any Yea they are often snared with an oath not to doe it and all to keepe them in darknesse because the hooded hauke is quietest and Sampson when his eies be out may be mocked and vsed at will but the Lord is able to touch his peoples hearts to thinke of their craft and cast from them such deceitfull workes which I beseech him to doe euen with speede For the impietie and boldnesse of these wicked charmers is great and worthily reprooued by S. Hierome who saith of some in his time that they did tantam sibi assumere authoritatē in Esai l. 9. c. 3. vt siue dextra docerent siue sinistra id est siue bona siue malanolint discipulos ratione discutere sed se praecessores sequi some did take such autority vpon them that whether they taught right or wrong good or badde they would not haue their auditours to examine it but to followe them M. Yea but it is a great matter sonne in our eyes that the Church of Rome hath alwaies beene a visible state maintaining that doctrine visible I say and still appearing and knowne whereas your church before Luthers time either was not at all or was hidde as some say and your doctrine not receiued by publike authoritie S. But good mother you know trueth is trueth although the whole world were set against it And therefore still I wish your eye bent not vpon the fauour of the world for that is commonly against the good and for the badde but vpon the face of almightie God his good pleasure and the rule thereof his worde And then for answere to this obiected which seemeth so strong a bulwarke in the iudgement of many Papists ●●e ● church 〈◊〉 nor alwaies ●●sible first I say that the true church is not alwaies visible in the worlde as they take visible that is glorious in credit and fauour supported by authority of worldly powers so that all people may know whether to resort vnto it For the Church is either Catholike 1. vniuersall or particular The Catholike or vniuersall church cannot be seene and therfore we beleeue it as an article of our faith Credo sanctam ecclesiam Catholicam Symb. Apost I beleeue that there is an holy Catholike Church not as some would haue it I giue credit to the church and beleeue what soeuer it teacheth for then it should be Credo Ecclesiae not Credo Ecclesiam Sentent l. 3. distinct 2● There is great difference saith P. Lumbard following S. Austen betwixt Credere Deum Credere Deo and Creaere in Deum the first is to beleeue that there is a God the second to giue credance vnto God and to beleeue all that t●u which he speaketh the third to rely vpon god and to put our confidence in him for protection and blessing So doubtlesse may I say that there is an apparent difference betwixt Credere Ecclesiam Catholicam Credere Ecclesiae Caetholicae and Creaere in Ecclesiam Catholicam the first is to be assuredly perswaded and to beleeue that there is a Catholike Church which is the meaning of the article as the very phrase of speach sheweth and the other articles following Credo communionem Sanctorum I beleeue that there is a communion of Saints Credo remissionem peccatorū I beleeue that there is a remission of sinnes Credo carnis resurrectionem I beleeue that there is a resurrection of the flesh c. The second Credere Ecclesiae catholicae is to giue credit vnto the Catholike Church and to embrace as trueth whatsoeuer the Church shall propound vnto vs which can not be the sense of the article except we will both confound these two phrases Credere Eccslesiam and Credere Ecclesiae so accurately distinguished by the master of the sentences and S. Augustin and make the wordes of men equall with Gods word The third Credere in Ecclesiam Catholicam is wholly to depend vpon the Catholike Church which we cannot make the sense of the article without violence to the wordes and great blasphemie to God Thus much by the way and by your gentle patience good mother of this article and the true meaning of it in generall because the mistaking thereof hath misled some into errour Now to returne seeing we beleeue the vniuersall or Catholike Church it followeth that it can not be seene ●eb 11.1 For faith as the Apostle writeth is the ground of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seene Not seene I say againe and intreat you to marke the worde And that a particular Church is not alwaies seene the storie of Elias prooueth pregnantly who could not see one and therefore was wery of his life ●ing 19.18 whereas God had kept vnto himselfe euen then when he complained and in that place where he liued yea in the middest of that people of whome he complained 7000. that had not bowed their knees vnto Ball. What may we thinke of these 7000. among the tenne trikes of Israel were they not Gods people worshipping him in spirit and in truth or is not the nūber sufficiet to make a church Surely the number might well make seuen glorious particular Churches Rom. 1● and the Apostle saieth of them first that God had kept them to himselfe secondly that they were his people thirdly that he knewe them before to wit in his eternall councell and almighty God himselfe to his prophet acknowledged them as his beloued and promised his protection vnto them that they should be safely kept Reasons 1. Reg. c. 19 1●.17 18. I suppose sufficient both for number and weight to prooue that God had his church in that place and at that selfe same time when where the prophet Elias complained for want of a Church and fellowe members to worship God with him O if so many so deare vnto god at one time in one countrie worshipping the true God truly by the testimony of