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B00812 A dialogue philosophicall. Wherein natures secret closet is opened, and the cause of all motion in nature shewed ovt of matter and forme, tending to mount mans minde from nature to supernaturall and celestial promotion: and how all things exist in the number of three. : Together with the wittie inuention of an artificiall perpetuall motion, presented to the kings most excellent maiestie. / All which are discoursed betweene two speakers, Philadelph, and Theophrast, brought together by Thomas Tymme, professour of diuinitie.. Tymme, Thomas, d. 1620. 1612 (1612) STC 24416; ESTC S95612 68,496 81

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yet Temperament doth not comprehend in it alone the efficacie of all functions but of those onely which after a certaine manner doe retaine and set forth the nature and condition of the first qualities For in temperament and mixture it is very necessary that one or two qualities doe excell which because they are superiour they challenge vnto them all the efficiencie of temperament in such wise that whatsoeuer is effected by it the same is said to be perfected by them albeit the rest are not idle For that which we perceiue to be hot doth heate albeit more faintly then fire And that which is hot and dry doth both heate and dry together Neither can any function come out of the Temperament which is not referred to the nature and power of the predominant quality This if it be alone and pure shall haue the forces of the Element but if it be tempered with the mixture of the contrary it shall still containe the same forces albeit obscure and inferiour For the repugnancie of the contrary may hinder the forces of the predominant quality excesse but it cannot vtterly suppresse and quaile the nature and strength thereof Therfore it is necessary that the power of the predominant Element doe abide and domineere in the temperament albeit the same power be weaker oppressed which enclining alwaies to the accustomed nature can produce no effect out of another different kinde And to perswade you that the rules goe thus it seemeth good to me to vse a more subtill reason The true mixture is of bodies the temperament is of qualities onely But contrary qualities doe not mutually passe into themselues or one into another saith Aristotle For heate doth not passe into colde nor moistnesse into drinesse or contrariwise but the subiect body onely doth suffer change For heate is not subiect to colde nor colde to heate but that which is subiect to either is Matter Therfore if ye thinke that contraries cannot passe into themselues how shall it come to passe that a new power or quality should arise out of the contemperament of the chiefe qualities which hauing gotten a different nature doth nothing sauour or taste those chiefe qualities Wherefore it is necessarie that the forces which arise out of the principall qualities doe immitate the nature of the superiour and ruling quality Philadelph I see verely the reasons of this conclusion Tell me therfore I pray you what force of effecting doe you thinke hath the matter gotten at the last For seeing it is rude without forme only subiect to beare the formes of things it effecteth nothing at all but suffereth endureth all order of change Theophrast I doe not hold and determine that there are any forces and functions in the simple and bare matter of things but in that matter which is compounded of mixed substances of the Elements Aristotle in diuers places sheweth that of the foure first qualities two that is to say Heate and Colde are actiue and are therefore called efficient the other two that is to say Moyst and Dry are called passiue so in like manner concerning the beginnings of nature Fire and Ayre are as causes efficient but water and earth are as the matter patient That same Aristotle pronounceth those things which are more potent and excellent in strength simply efficients but Water and Earth which are lesse potent hee maketh the matter of compound and thicke bodies and calleth the qualities of these drinesse and moistnesse Liuing creatures saith he doe liue and conuerse onely in the earth and in the water and not in the Aire and Fire because earth and water are the matters of bodies and therefore he addeth these words That which suffereth is either dry or moist or else compounded of both and for this cause water is said to be the body of moistnesse and earth the body of drinesse because amongst moist and dry things they are most passiue Hereof I gather that moistnesse and drinesse are patible qualities and that earth and water wherein is much moistnesse and drinesse are the matter of naturall bodies Therefore for good considerations we do call the same the vertue and quality of matter which Aristotle is wont to call the secundarie qualities arising from the patible and also calleth them corporall effects as are hard and soft thicke and thinne tough and brittle light and sharpe and such like all which are hidden and contained in matter Also Aristotle respecting the power and qualities of the Elements calleth them efficients but yet after a more subtill manner but when he considereth their substance then he affirmeth all of them to be patible and the matter of naturall bodies whereof all creatures which are in the vniuersall frame of this world consist This therefore is the matter of mixt bodies which being compunded of the matter of the elements and of the vertue of their qualities hath the same forces which I called secundarie and from whence all that is soft hard thick and thinne proceedeth And this is the cause why our meates doe nourish quicker or slower and why they haue vertue to stop to open or to cleanse Philadelph Your speech importeth thus much as I take it as if you should say that such forces doe one while proceede from the qualities of the elements and sometime from their matter and yet neuerthelesse the forces both of the qualities and matter doe apparantly come from the elements themselues Theophrast They seeme to proceede in deede from both if as well the one as the other seeme Elementarie but yet except those forces which proceede from the qualities be discerned from those which the matter yeeldeth there will no doubt be great ambiguity in things and much confusion which if you thinke good to cleare and auoid you shall driue the effects of the elements from the temperament and the effects of the consistence from the matter Philadelph I like the distinction of your Homonomye now therefore proceede with the third sort of forces namely of that which concerneth forme Theophrast If the forme of a naturall thing which is the perfection of the whole be farre more excellent than either the matter or the temperament who I pray you is so mad and so blinde in the contemplation of things as to thinke that matter and temperament haue their forces and effects and that forme should be idle and nothing auaileable in the power of acting That the accidents should haue in it a naturall effecting power and the substance which of all other is most chiefe should be destitute of all acting power to doe any thing which to thinke is too absurd I for my part attribute so much force to the formes of bodies that I verely thinke that all those effects which we behold in the things created doe chiefly and especially proceede from them And the rather I am of this opinion because Aristotle confirmeth the same For he opposing himselfe against certaine Philosophers which deduced the powers of naturall bodies from
spirit of the Elements The third is an Earthie and watrie substance both together carying the body of the Elements vnder the name of Earth Philadelph I pray you declare vnto me the complexions and qualities of these three principles Salt Sulphur and Mercurie that I may vnderstand how they agree with those of the Elements Theophrast Mercurie is a sharpe liquor fluible and penetrable and a most pure Aethereall and substantiall body a substance Aierie most subtill quickning and full of spirit the seede of life and an essentiall forme comprehended in Aire Sulphur is a moist sweet oile-like clammy originall which giueth substance to it selfe the nourishment of Fire or of a naturall heate endued with the force of molifying and conioyning together comprehended in water Salt is that dry body saltish meerely earthie representing the nature of Salt endued with wonderfull vertues of dissoluing congealing cleansing emptying and with other infinite qualities comprehended in earth These three principles were called by the fore-said Hermes Spirit Soule and Body Mercurie Spirit Sulphur the Soule and Salt the body The body is ioyned with the spirit by the bond of the Soule Sulphur for that it hath affinitie with both the extreames as a meane coupling them together For Mercurie as is said is liquide thinne and fluible Sulphur is a soft oyle passable Salt is dry thicke and stable the which three are so proportionate together and tempered one with the other that there is a great Analogie conueniencie in this contrariety of beginnings For Sulphur with his humiditie oyle-like ioyneth as a meane the two extreames fixed Salt and flying Mercurie that is to say the drinesse of Salt and the moistnesse of Mercurie are contempered with the viscous humidity of Sulphur the thicknesse of Salt and the subtilty of Mercurie which are contrary are tempered with the fluidity of Sulphur Moreouer Sulphur by his exceeding sweetnesse doth contemper the sharpnesse or sowernesse of Mercurie and the bitternesse of Salt and by his clamminesse doth conioyne the subtill flying of Mercurie with the firmenesse and stability of Salt Thus of these three all naturall bodies are compounded Philadelph You said before that Fire is the Author of all formes and actions in vniuersall nature I pray you shew vnto me after what manner it is so to be reputed Theophrast Fire by his winde and spirit carieth and conuayeth his seeds into the belly of the earth whereby the generation fruit is nourished fostered and groweth and is at the last thrust forth out of the lap and bosome of the Elements This Heauen or Fire albeit it is no complexion in it selfe that is to say neither hot nor colde moist nor dry yet by his naturall disposition it yeeldeth to all things heate and colde moisture and drinesse For so much as there are starres which haue their most colde and moist spirits as the Saturnals and Lunaries others most hot and dry as the Solarie and Martials others hot and moist as the Iouials who by their vertues and complexion wherewith euery starre is endued doe forme fashion and impregnate all these inferiour things in such wise that some indiuiduals are of that condition and complexion which they haue borrowed and taken from their framing or fashioning starre or planet other some of another complexion which they haue obtained according to the condition of other starres For God hath giuen to Heauen most perfect and simple seedes such as are the Planets and Starres which hauing in them vitall faculties and complexions doe powre them forth into the lap of the inferiour Elements animating and forming them Neither doth this Heauen at any time cease frō his working nor the Astrall seeds thereof because their vertues are so abundant that they are neuer exhausted nor yet doe they suffer alteration or diminution of their faculties wherby they may cease from procreating or forming albeit at sometime they doe make more or lesse fruitfull than at other times Hereupon commeth that perpetuall circulation by the benefit whereof the seeds of the Elements or their matter are coupled with the seeds of the starres thrusting their contained seed into the maternall lap that it may forme bring forth a kindly off-spring For as Heauen is said to worke vpon the Earth so also the inferiour Elements doe yeeld and bestow their actions and motions albeit after another manner because Heauen is altogether actiue and nothing passiue being of a Homogeniall and most perfect nature and is therefore incorruptible and immutable vntill the predestinate end of things created Philadelph Are then those three Salt Sulphur and Mercurie the Essentiall and first principles of the Heauen Theophrast God in creating Heauen separated out of the Chaos or confused Masse the most pure from the impure that is to say he reduced the more pure and Aethereall Mercurie the more pure inextinguible starres and lights into a Crystaline Diamontine substance or most simple body which is called Heauen the highest fourth formall Element that from the same the formes as it were seeds might be powred forth as is before shewed into the more grosse Elements to the generation of all things Therefore it cannot be denied but that Heauen doth consist of those three principles albeit most simple but yet of the most pure spirituous and altogether formall If wee will beholde the purity of the Heauen aboue other elements and the constancie thereof looke then vpon those bright and shining fires continually glittering with light to whom the Heauen hath giuen the most pure in extinguible Sulphureus substance whereof they consist For such as the Heauen is in essence such fruits hath it brought forth therein as touching substance out of whose vitall impressions and influences they procreate and bring forth some likenesse of themselues in the more grosse Elements but yet according as the matter is more grosse more thinne more durable more constant or more transitorie And the influences of such fires are Mercuriall spirits but the light and shining brightnesse is Sulphur their fixed Heauens or vitriall Christalline circles is a salt body which circles are so pure shining and fixed that a Diamond which partaketh of the nature of fixed Salt is not of more purity continuance and perpetuity then they are Philadelph What say you to the Element of Aire doth that also consist of Salt Sulphur and Mercurie If it doe shew mee I pray you the manner how Theophrast The beginnings of Aire are all one with the other but yet more grosse lesse pure and lesse spirituous and simple then the beginnings celestiall notwithstanding that they are much more perfect thinne and penetrating than are the waterie and terrestriall Mercuries and Sulphurs and are such that next to Heauen Aire hath the preheminence of actiuitie and power whose powers and effects are to be seene in diuers and sundry winds which are Mercuriall fruits the spirits of the Aierie Element whose Sulphurs also are discerned to be pure and brght in burning Comets which are no
hot and colde thinking that all things were made of these and by these makeeh it plaine by demonstration that those qualities are onely instruments of a certaine more superiour and principall cause which hee hath expressed by the name of nature For whosoeuer shall affirme that these secundarie qualities haue the prerogatiue in themselues to worke and shall attribute the cause power as it were of acting to the Axe or such like instrument and so the forme and perfection of the thing reiected shall passe by the true cause imputing that to the actions of the Instrument which neuerthelesse should remaine idle if they were not moued stirred vp by the force of forme the same I say shall much forget himselfe Philadelph If there be so great force power in forme that to the same chiefly all motion and action must be imputed then shall wee be enduced to thinke that the functions and qualities which euen now you referred to temperament and matter take not their originall by themselues but first from forme What cause haue you then to determine that they proceede from temperament and matter Theophrast They which soare no higher then the wing of common sense doe carie them will affirme that such functions and qualities spring from matter and temperament albeit forme hath the first place and preheminence we following these mens low pitch of conceit affirme that those qualities proceede from Matter and Temperament because they are effected by these as by instruments But what qualities and faculties I simply pronounce to be of forme those I affirme to haue no neede of the helpe of Instrument Philadelph Goe to then Are not matter and temperament which you propund as Instruments certaine furtherances forces of the efficient forme Theophrast No verely But as in any artificiall worke the Caruer or Smith is he which is the first and principall agent and who hath the power and faculty of acting which is his Art and strength of body but the Artificers instrument as Axe or Hammer is but an helper and in the instrument there is as it were a certaine borrowed helpe or force not which worketh but by which the worke is the better effected and to this end the well fashioned and sharpe Toole is a great furtherance euen so in like manner almost in the naturall working of things whereby they are brought to passe Forme is the first and chiefe efficient hauing in it the effecting power But Matter and Temperament are as helping instruments of the efficient cause and either of these to wit Matter and Temperament haue their power and faculty and an apt constitution by which the effect may more easely be brought to passe Therefore in euerie naturall body there are three efficient causes namely Forme Matter and Temperament euery of which haue their peculiar force whereby it worketh strongly or after a weake manner Forme of it selfe is the beginning of working neither doth it borrow any thing of the Instrument to haue being or the nature of beginning which commeth afterward as by accessarie meanes Forme therefore had the power and faculty of acting before such time as it acted by the Instrument euen as the Caruer before he worke any thing with his Toole hath ability and Art to effect the which faculty he taketh not from his Toole or Instrument Whereby it appeareth that the faculty which is naturally in euerie forme and which is called the property thereof is farre different from Matter and Temperament in force and vertue for a Caruer or Painter by his Science onely which is his faculty without the helpe of any Instrument can make an Image in his minde so in like manner the forme of a thing effecteth the thing without the helpe of Matter and Temperament And forasmuch as these three are mixed and conioyned in euery naturall body Formes can scarsly shew forth their forces apart and by themselues in effect but that therewith Matter and Temperament will expresse their supplie But on the contrary part Matter and Temperament cannot shew forth themselues without forme so that these in their seuerall kindes must be distinguished and not confounded CHAP. V. Philadelph YOur ternarie of Forme Matter and Temperament putteth me in minde of three principles which that great and ancient Philosopher Hermes Trismegistus hath deliuered that is to say Salt Sulphur and Mercurie which three hee appointeth as the onely naturall beginnings of all things created which agreeth not with Aristotles foure Elementarie principles How can these two opinions so different in number stand together Theophrast Aristotle had reason to appoint a quaternarie of Elements according to the number of the foure qualities hot colde drie and moyst as the first principles of all things as is to be seene in his second booke of Generation of liuing creatures Yet forasmuch as one can beget nothing of himselfe but three therfore three doe make one body by a compound made by a three-fold efficacie of the diuine word For God in the beginning as Moses testifieth made of nothing a Chaos deepe or waters which we please to call it animated with his spirit who being the great workmaister in the creation separated first light from darknesse and this Ethereall Heauen which we beholde as a quarta essentia or fourth eflence or most pure spirit or most spiritual simple created body Then be deuided waters from waters that is to lay the more subtill aterie and Mercuriall liquor from the more thicke clammy oyle-like or Sulfurous liquor After that Moses telleth vs that God separated from the more grosse waters the Earth which standeth apart by it selfe like Salt And thus in the bosome of the world God encluded these three simple bodies Salt Sulphur and Mercurie as the first formes of things Philadelph Doe the Philosophers the followers of Hermes exclude the Element of Fire in the composition of bodies elemented Theophrast In Genesis it is euidently to be seene that there is made mention of Heauen Earth and Water onely but of Fire and Aire no mention at all because these two are encluded vnder the other as vnder Heauen Fire and vnder the superiour waters Aire so that hereby it is plaine that there is no other fierie element but Heauen a fourth essence separated out of the more subtill matter and forme of the three elements which being so separated and extracted is no other thing but a pure Aetheriall and most simple fire most perfect and farre different from the three Elements as imperfect which Fire is the Author of all formes powers and actions in all the inferiour things of nature as the first in degree among the second causes and carieth it selfe like a Father toward his off-spring Philadelph What are the essences of these three Fire Aire and Earth Theophrast The first which is fire is a substance containing in it life and motion or the soule of the Elements The second which is Aire is a substance which hath in it the nourishing foment of life and the
perpetuall fires and Sulphurs as are the starres degenerating from the nature of them as from purity and simplicity into a more grosse and impure forme And as concerning Earth in Aire it is so subtill and thin that it is very hard to beseene being diffused throughout the whole Region of the Aire Which Salt sheweth not it selfe to mans eye but in Dewes and Frosts and in Manna In Honey which Bees doe gather from flowers wherein there is no other thing but Salt Sulphur and Mercurie of the Aire which by a skilfull Chymist are separated from it with great admiration Yea the rusticke Coridon findeth this to be true by his experience in that he can separate the matter of the Bees worke into waxe a matter sulphurous into Honey which is a Mercuriall essence and into drosse representing the terrestriall Salt The very same beginnings of Aire may also be seene in Meteors in Lightnings in Corruscations in Thundrings and in such like which are ingendred in the Aire For in that fierie flame which breaketh forth is Sulphur in the windie spirit thereof is Mercurie and in the stone and thunderbolt is Salt fixed Thus that superiour separated into an Aethereall and ayrie Heauen hath his three beginnings Salt Sulphur and Mercurie yet neuerthelesse very different in simplicity and purity Philadelph These demonstrations perswade much but shew mee I pray you whether the things of this inferiour Globe consist in essence of the same number of three Salt Sulphur and Mercurie Theophrast These three beginnings doe more plainely shew themselues in this inferiour Globe by reason of their more grosse matter which is to our sight more sensible For out of the Element of Water the iuyces and metalline substances doe daily breake forth in sight the vapours of whose moisture or more spirituous iuyce doe set forth Mercurie the more dry exhalations Sulphur and their coagulated and congealed matter Salt Of the which Salts Nature doth offer vnto vs diuers sorts as Allom Coperas Vitriol Salt Gem Salt Armoniacke Salt Peeter and many others She giueth also vnto vs many kindes of Sulphurs as Brimstone Bitumen Pitch Tarre and such like Also diuers sorts of Mercuries Moreouer in the Sea there are Mercuriall Airie and Sulphurus spirits whose Meteors in Castor and Pollux and tn other kindled fires by reason of their sundry Sulphurs and exhalations doe manifest the same And as touching the Salt in the Sea no man will make question it is so superabundant From this Marine Salt the Earth being like vnto a spunge and sucking the same continually into it produceth the afore mentioned Salts beside store of minerals and mettals as the mother and first originall Philadelph For as much as these three first beginnings are in the Heauen in the Aire and in the Water as you haue shewed I haue no reason to doubt but that by a farre greater likelihood the same are to be found in the earth and to be made no lesse apparant seeing the earth of all other Elements is the most fruitfull and plentifull Therefore discourse vnto me I pray you concerning the Salt Sulphur and Mercurie of Plants and Trees Theophrast The Mercurial spirits of the Earth shew themselues in the leaues and fruits the Sulphurs in the flowers seeds and kernels the Salt in the wood barke and roots and yet so that euery of those three parts of the Tree or Plant seuerally by themselues haue in them their peculiar Salt Sulphur and Mercurie without which they cannot consist how simple so euer they be For whatsoeuer hath being within the whole compasse of Nature it doth consist of these three essences And albeit some Trees and Plants are said to be Mercuriall some Sulphurus and some Saltish it commeth hereof because the Mercuriall doe containe more Mercurie the Sulphurus more Sulphur and the Saltish more Salt in them then others For some Trees are to be seene more full of Rosine and Sulphurus matter than other some as the Pyne and Firre Trees which are alwaies greene on the coldest mountaines because they abound with their Sulphurus beginning the principall vitall instrument of their growing For there are some other plants as the Laurell the Trees of Orenges Lymonds and Cytrones which continue long greene and yet subiect to colde because their Sulphur is not so easely dispersed as is the Sulphur of the Firre Trees which are Rosine and are therefore of a threefold more constant life furnished against the iniurie of times Furthermore all spice Trees and odoriferous hearbs are Sulphurus and as there are sundry sorts of Trees of this kinde so are there an infinite sort of Sulphurs whereof I cannot stand now to entreate The plants hearbs which more abound with Salt than others are to be discerned by their taste such are Celadine Nettle Aron Radish Mustard-seede Porret Leekes Garlicke Onions Ramsons Persiccaria and such like which also by the plenty of their Salt doe prescrue themselues from the colde of Winter As for other plants abounding with Mercurie none are comparable to Rosa solis Philadelph Are those three beginnings to be found in animals or liuing creatures that haue sense also as they are in vegetable plants and such like Theophrast I tolde you before that there is nothing in Nature but it consisteth of these three euen the very fowles of the Aire and fishes that liue in the water and wormes of the Earth In the Egge whereof the fowle taketh his beginning these are seuerally to be seene the white of the Egge sheweth the Aethereall Mercurie wherein is the seede and the Aethereall spirit the Author of generation hauing in it the generating power whereof the bird is chiefly procreated The yolke of the Egge which is the nourishment of the bird is the true Sulphur But the thinne skinne and the shell is altogether Salt And this Salt is the most fixed and constant of all other Salts of Nature So as the same being brought to blacknesse and then freed from the combustible Sulphur therein by artificiall calculation it will endure all force of fire a property belonging to the most fixed Salts This Salt duly prepared is very fit to dissolue the stone and to auoide it As these three are in the Egge so doe they passe into the bird for Mercurie is in the bloud and flesh Sulphur in the fat and Salt in the Ligamens sinewes bones and more solide parts and the same beginnings are more airie and subtill in birds then in fishes and terrestrials as for example the oylely substance of birds which is the Sulphur is alwaies of more thinne parts than that of fishes or of beasts The same may be said of fishes which albeit they be procreated nourished in the colde water yet doe they not want their hot and burning fatnesse Also that there is in them Mercurie and Salt no man well aduised will denie All Terrestriall liuing creatures doe consist in like sort of these three beginnings but in a more noble degree of perfection