is the Rule of Faith and after he tells you why it must be so because a Rule must be certain and known for if it be not certain it is no Rule and if not known it is no Rule to us now there is nothing more certain or more known than the Scriptures Compare the Marques his infallible Rule of Traditions with this saying of Bellarmine and it will appear they have little of a Rule in them For certainly what is more uncertain When the Primitive Church it self within a hundred years after the Apostolical Times was split into that great Schism about the Celebration of Easter which was but a meer Tradition and was not reconciled till the Councel of Nice And for being known nothing is less seeing in the very Church of Rome they are not yet agreed which are Apostolical Traditions The Scriptures he urgeth are Rom. 12. 6. And there is a Rule of Faith I grant and an infallible one too but it is not praeter besides nor extra without the Scripture but that mentioned in the Scriptures Gal. 6. 16. there is a Rule but a Rule of Doctrine concerning Christian Liberty in the point of Circumcision no Rule of Faith Rom. 6. 17. there is neither Rule nor Faith but a form of Doctrine delivered to them by the preaching of the Gospel what he urged out of 2 Cor. 10. 12 16. is so extremely and grosly impertinent as sure when he cast his eye upon that place his Lordship was either entring into or newly raised from such a nap wherein the Doctor found him M. But lest we should mis-understand what this Rule of Faith is the Marques tells us By it is not meant the holy Scriptures for that cannot do it and he gives the Reason whilest there are unstable men who wrest this way and that way to their own destruction So that Scripture is now with the Marques no infallible Rule at all Traditions have outed her clear and the Reason inferreth plainly that we must not walk abroad at high noon-day without a Torch because some men notwithstanding the Sun shined clear have fallen into a Ditch Of farr more weight I must needs confess are his Humane than Divine Authorities which yet shall not pass without my Animadversions Irenaeus lib. 4. c. 45. speaking of those who succeeded the Apostles saith Hi fidem nostram custodiunt Scripturas sine periculo exponunt These preserve our Faith and expound the Scriptures without peril of error Observe first 't is hi these men who were so near the Apostles as they were instructed by those who were contemporaries with them as himself says Then again 't is exponunt they do expound not that they are infallible or cannot expound otherwise what is this to the infallibility of the Church 1600 years after Christ Irenaeus is full enough in this point and point-blank against the Marques a To expound Scripture decording to Scripture is the truest way and least perilous As for Tertullian his meaning is thus made out b The Heretiques with whom the Church was to dispute did not receive all Scriptures for Canonical and those they did receive intire they did not or if intire they feigned strange Interpretations of their own fancies and a corrupt sense prejudiceth Truth as much as a corrupt Text were they accused for vitiating and falsifying the Text or for introducing absured Expositions They retorted the same Charge upon their Adversaries In this case of malicious obstinacy the Church had onely this remedy to provoke them to declare who founded their Churches for if it appeared they were the Apostles there was no more to be said it being in those days c constat and evidence enough of Truth that their Churches were of Apostolical foundation As for Vincentius having spoke before of the perfection of Scripture with a satis superque that it is all-sufficient and to spare he supposeth it may be demanded what need is there then of the Churches sense to which he answereth because all men understand it not in one sense and alike therefore it is necessary saith he that the line of interpretation be directed according to the rule of the Catholique and Ecclesiastical sense Now what is intended by a Catholique sense is the Question the Papists will have it to be Tradition unwritten but we say it is that which the Universal Church hath always held for Vincentius explains his Catholique to be that a which always every where and of all men hath been believed and this Rule we willingly admit in points essential where variety and different senses are inconsistent but in other points of less concernment we say with Saint Augustin b If any thing be set down in sacred Scriptures more obscurely as an exercise for the mindes of Believers it is commendable if it be interpreted many ways provided no way absurdly M. In matters of Faith Christ bids us do and observe whatsoever they bid us who sit in Moses seat Matth. 23. 2. therefore there is something more to be observed than Scripture True it is to be observed that his Lordship here takes observing and doing to be matters of Faith which I never read in Scripture nor anywhere else But are we to do whatsoever they bid us who sit in Moses seat Surely no if they have any Commission it is not greater than that of Moses was and his was after the tenour of the words delivered him in the Mount Exod. 34. 27. And therefore Christ saith In vain ye worship me teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of men Mat. 15. 9. Wil you not as wel believe what you hear Christ say as what ye hear his Ministers write Yes sure and much more for what Christ says is truth it self believe it I must but what his Ministers write is many times erroneous and then credat Judaeus Apella non ego believe it who will for me Their Commission is All things which I have commanded you M. We say the Scriptures are not easie to be understood you say they are Our Church saith it is full as well of low valleys plain ways and easie for every man to walk in as also of high hills and mountains which few men can climb unto And this the Marques in a manner grants p. 129. saying 't is easie in aliquibus but not in omnibus locis in some places not every where M. We say this Church cannot err you say it can What his Lordship means by this Church we might demand had he not told us at first to what Church he would lead his Majesty and that was the Romish Church of which our Church makes no bones to say It hath erred not onely in living and matters of ceremonies but also in matters of faith Here she is I confess somewhat bolder with the Church of Rome than the Marques was with his Majesty But perhaps the Church of England for she is not infallible may err in her
yea and to the M. his Church too but then he must set on fire all that superstructure of Wood Hay and Stubble which is built I fear not upon the true Foundation neither But before he enters into that way some Obstacles some Rubs are to be removed 't is fit the Kings way should be made smooth M. The first Rub is Your Majesty was pleased to urge the Errors of certain Fathers to the prejudice of their Authority Not so pleased as the Marques was to urge the supposed Blemishes of Luther and Calvin to the prejudice of our Church No not pleased at all for he said I deplore their Infirmities 114. But to the prejudice of their Authority they are urged nor could the M. excuse them but argueth from his Majesties own words So did the Apostles but when all were gathered together in Councel and could send about their Edicts with these Capital Letters in the Front Visum est Spiritui sancto nobis then I hope your Majesty cannot say that it was possible for them to err So though the Fathers migh err in particulars yet those particular Errors would be swallowed up in a General Councel By the Marques his comparing General Councels with that in Acts 15. we may infer that in his sense These may say as well as That Visum est Spiritui sancto nobis It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us And indeed it is no more than what Bellarmine and Stapleton said before him and the Doctrine of Infallibility infallibly implies as much But let the Marques and his party say what they please sure I am Antiquity never durst think so much less say it take one instance for all That Great and General Councel of Nice observe what a prudent and wary course she took in setting down her Determinations in statlng the business concerning the Celebration of Easter it being a matter of indifferency Placuit ut adderetur visum est barely so not Spiritui sancto nobis ut omnes obtemperarent We think fit that all obey our Decree but when she came to that great Confession of Faith now call'd the Nicene Creed you hear no more of Placuit then but delivereth her self Credit Catholica Ecclesia The Catholique Church beleeves And this was done on purpose ut ostenderent quae ipsi scripsissent non sua esse inventa sed Apostolorum Documenta to declare That what they had written was not their own Fiction but the doctrine of the Apostles This was the wisdom of that eminent Councel As to the Marques his supposition that the Fathers particular Errors would be swallowed up in a General Councel I grant it but certainly the Councel would be little the better for them it is not the reducing and incorporating many several Poysons into one Bowl can alter the venomous quality or hinder their operation but it may be said those Poysons may meet with so many benign Corrections as will in all probability render them inoffensive true I grant that too but then it is not their number will do it for all that are innocent as Doves are not as wise as Serpents an honest meaning saith Nazianzen keeps no Court of Guard and Heresies if they cannot predominate in power they will undermine with craft At that General Councel of Ariminum branded by his Majesty for heretical the farr greater number were pious and orthodox men the Arrian party perceiving they could not out-vote them resolved if possible to out-wit them and therefore moved in Councel that whereas the Nicene Creed had brought in are word {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} signifying the second Person in the Trinity to be of the same substance with his Father which word gave much offence to many because it was not to be found in the Scriptures and was very dark and intricate in it self that therefore it should thence forward be forborn and instead thereof should be inserted that the Son is like unto his Father in all things according to the Scriptures This sly practice passed not undiscerned to so me of the quicker sented Bishops who tooth and nail opposed it but others yet well-meaning men too being perswaded by some whom the Heretiques had suborned that the difference was not so considerable as worthy to make an absolute breach in the point and that in effect there was as much implied in what was added instead of that word and finding that the Emperour would tire them out if they did not yield at length consented to have that word omitted Thus this Councel erred by Circumvention and that it erred is enough for us and against the Marques for if one erreth another may yea all may and that others have done so too his Majesty hath instanced which is to the Marqhes his second Rub. M. Nor is it enough that the Marques replies Those Councels were called when the Church was under Persecution seeing General Councels they were still for all that the five Patriarchs with their subordinate Bishops being present either in Person or by Proxy M. And if we should suppose them to be General and free Councels yet they could not be erroneous in any particular man's judgement untill a like General Councel should have concluded the former to be erroneous So that by his Lordships Rule had not the Councel of Calcedon nor any other since condemned Eutyches for an Heretick we must all have held to this day but one Nature in Christ Wherefore if it should be granted that the Church at any time had determined amiss yet the Church cannot be said to have erred because you must not take the particular time for the Catholique Church Sure if at that time the Catholique Church did err no after-act or rectification can make it otherwise and admit she once erred it will follow she may err again and again and that her seeming rectification may whatsoever is pretended swerve as much from the Truth as her first Error For as in Civil affairs the Parlaments alter their Laws upon experience of present inconveniences so the Councels change their Decrees according to that further knowledge which the holy Writ assures us shall increase in the latter end This similitude must infer a power in General Councels to change their Decrees and Canons as well as Parlaments their former Statutes and I yield that Power resident in them in matters of outward Polity and Government in the Church but that they have a power to decree matters of Faith which shall binde the Church needs no other Confutation than the allowing them a power to change their Decrees For the Rule of Faith as Tertullian saith excellently is one onely immoveable and unreformable This Law of Faith continuing firm other matters of Discipline and conversation admit the novelty of reformation If I recall mine own words it is no Error but the avoidance of an Error The recalling mine own words may be an Error as well as
the Pope as a common Father Adviser and Conductor to them all whereas the Protestants being not united under one Prince nor Patriarch are as severed and scattered Troops c. His Lordship might have remembred that but ten pages before Sir Edwin saith speaking of France The Catholiques are here divided into as different Opinions and in as principal matters of their Religion as they esteem them as the Protestants in any place that ever I heard of By which it is evident both that the Catholiques have jarrs and no small jarrs neither From Divisions the Marques dislodgeth and proceeds next to the bad Lives of Protestants I confesse by the little I have searched I see a great deal of false play in his Lordships Instances to lay all open were time mis-spent I will neither admit all his Accusations for true nor affirm them all false enough I conceive it is for us in this particular to say The best is the Triple Crown it self is able to match them and over-match them too chuse what vice what sin you please for it hath afforded conjurating Popes who have made private Contracts with the Devil Alexander the sixth Paul the third Sylvester the second Benedict the ninth John the thirteenth Gregory the seventh for it hath afforded an idolatrous Pope as Macellinus for it hath afforded incestuous Popes as Paul the third Alexander the sixth and John the thirteenth for it hath afforded bloudy and truculent Popes as Boniface the seventh Paschal the second Vrban the sixth And lastly it hath afforded Whore-masters an innumerable Crue so that Bellarmine himself is so hard put to it to salve the matter of the dissolutenesse of Popes as he hath nothing else to say but Quot numerari possunt qui rectissime credunt tamen perditissime vivunt How many may be reckoned up who are of sound belief yet of wretched lives His Lordship having as he conceives given sufficient caveat what it is to rely upon such mens judgements as Luther Calvin Beza c. Next takes notice of an Objection his Majesty made That the Church of Rome hath fallen from her first Love and old Principles and undertakes to prove an Identity and samenesse of Doctrine in the now Church of Rome and in the Primitive Church during Saint Augustine's time for which Father's worth he produceth the great esteem he hath amongst Protestants themselves and indeed he deserves all the good can be said of him being of all the Fathers the chiefest Florist fullest of Elegancy and therefore most delightfull and also the most judicious and solid and therefore most edifying but yet for all that Saint Augustine himself had his Reâ—â—ctations and he calls it himself a necessary work In this Parallel and comparing both Churches together the Marques spends many pages which I shall answer in as few lines And first I might demand were his Lordship living as David did of the Widow of Tekoah Is not the hand of Joab or Cardinal Peron with thee in all this Could he or durst he deny it Undoubtedly no there being no other difference than between French and English and the Reply of a Cardinal to the Father of a Marques to the Son But as the Cardinal saved the Marques a great deal of labor in penning his eighteenth Chapter of his Reply to King James so a very reverend and learned Bishop hath saved me as much in already answering that eighteenth Chapter of the Cardinal's Reply and he hath done it so full so home that never as yet durst any Jesuit or other of the Romish perswasion take him to task for it to that excellent Piece I shall transmit the Reader with this onely cautionary hint that what the Bishop page 7. citeth out of Saint Augustine de Civit. Dei l. 17. c. 20. is no where to be found in that Tome or Tract but is in his sixth Tome contra Faust Manich. l. 20. c. 21. and instead of Post Adventum in the Bishops reade Post Ascensum for so it is and so it must be I wonder much that his own Manuscript he being so diligently precise should have it so and that the Error should escape also those judicious and exact Supervisors who published those posthume Works After all these borrowed or rather stollen Comparisons the Marques makes no doubt but his Majesties judgement will tell him that the Church of Rome hath not changed her countenance nor the Papists fled from their Colours but that they do antiquum obtinere True indeed the Romish Catholiques do still antiquum obtinere keep their old wont the old wont of the ancient Hereticks and what that was Tertullian can inform us Adjectionibus by foisting in as This is my body which is given for you not to you detractionibus by lopping and laming as leaving out Do this in remembrance of me Scripturas ad dispositionem instituti intervertere wresting the Scriptures to serve their own turns This is all the Antiquity his Majesties judgement could tell him of in the Romish Church where differing from ours Nor is it enough his Lordship proves as he would perswade us the Romish Antiquity but he will also shew the Protestants theirs in the condemned heresies of the ancient Church as for Example the Protestants hold that the Church may err this they had from the Donatists But I would gladly know from whence the Marques had his Information concerning this opinion of the Donatists he quoteth Augustine for it I confesse and with a passion as if every where you might finde it in him where he undertaketh Donatus but sure it is his Lordships every where will come to no where for the opinion of Donatus was clearly this that all Churches but his own were erroneous his own onely infallible and out of which hold he did that none could be saved which I conceive is the very Tenet of the Romish Catholiques and so the Donatists and they are nearest ally'd Protestants deny unwritten Tradit ions this they had from the Arrians I deny that Deny Traditions we hold and grant in Ceremonies and matters not fundamental and we oppose to the Romish party their own comparison of Traditions to a nuncupative will which cannot by the Rule of our Law convey a free-hold and Estate in Fee So it is with Traditions in Divinity they cannot constitute any Articles of Faith or impose any thing of the necessity of salvation for which recourse must be had to the written Word and to that only Though Arrius is branded for an Heretick yet neither Augustine nor Epiphanius so far as I am able to understand them have discovered any such Heresie in him as a Recusant to unwritten Traditions Protestants teach that Priests may marry this they had from Vigilantius This is Heresie now adays but ab initio non fuit sic 't was not so in Saint Paul's opinion who appointed a Bishop should be the Husband of one Wife 't was not so in Tertullian's
weak finite and erring men still their Canons are no Articles of Faith their Decrees no infallible Rules Not so in the primitive Church I am assured by the confession of both sides Augustine being to dispute with Maximinus his first demand was Dic mihi fidem Rehearse to me thy faith the subtle Heretique supposing Augustine would urge the Nicene Creed against him reply'd I believe as the Councel of Ariminum believes but finding after that Augustine would not take this for an Answer says further I did not plead the Councel of Ariminum to excuse my opinion but to shew the Authority of the Fathers who according to Scripture delivered to us a Confession of Faith which they had out of the Scripture Augustine perceiving Maximinus let go the Councel of Ariminum was resolved to stand as little upon the Councel of Nice but closed with him thus Neither ought I to produce the Councel of Nice against thee nor thou that of Ariminum against me I am not bound to the authority of this nor thou of that let us in our conflict urge the authority of scripture witness indifferent to both and not peculiar to either See here the Orthodox and Heretique both compromise to abide the order of Scripture and both wave the Authority and Judgement of two General Councels which certainly they would not have done had they reputed them infallible and a Judge not infallible shall rule no Faith of mine But the Doctor tells us page 79. His Society of Men must be such as can say It seemed good unto us and to the holy Ghost Now Doctor you speak to the point indeed that Society of Men that Church would I fain see but are you well advised what you say If yea then it must seem good to the holy Ghost because so to us whereas the first form if he ever promised to be there with infallible assistance I dare take his word for it but had it to the holy Ghost first and then to us But assign the holy Ghost what place ye please if he be there 't is all I look for and I will not take yours unless you shew me that promise which hitherto you have not done But we will not part so neither admit for once you finde the Church you so hunt for and a spirit of infallibility directing her in that Councel must and will all Controversies presently cease Certainly no such matter for may not perverse spirits wrest to their own destruction what the holy Ghost shall declare in a General Councel as well as what he hath delivered in the sacred Scripture Did not the Nestorians vouch for their Heresie the Authority of the Councel of Nice as General a Councel and as much endowed with the holy Ghost as ever any since that of Hierusalem was or I believe shall be Nor do I speak onely of what the malice of Satan sowing Tares and man's crooked untoward will a soil proper for them may produce for the holy Ghost speaks in a manner signanter and expresly there must be notwithstanding such assistance Controversies still For if there must be Heresies there will be without controversie Controversies still and that Heresies must be the holy Ghost tells us 1 Cor. 11. 19. So that the revenue and product of all I have said is this That the true Church hath not the supreme Judicature over Questions of Faith and if she had yet Controversies would and must still continue and all this I hope I have not onely said but proved I confesse ingeniously sure he meant ingenuously for there was no great wit in his confession that there is not a thing that I ever understood lesse than that Assertion of the Scriptures being Judge of Controversies though in some sort I must and will acknowledge it The Doctor was here going a step beyond the Papists themselves who all hold the Scriptures to be an infallible Rule but resum'd himself and modifieth his speech with an acknowledgement of it to be so in some sense but in what he thought us not worthy to know Nor since he is so reserved will we much inquire because when known it can extend little to our satisfaction But though we must not know in what sense it is sole Judge yet in what it is not he tells us and that is Not as it is a Book consisting of papers words and letters for as we commonly say in matters of civil Differences The Law shall be Judge between us we do not meane that every man shall run unto the Law-books or that any Lawyer himself shall search his Law-cases and thereupon possesse himself of the thing in question without a legal Triall by lawfull Judges constituted to that same purpose How the Doctor thinks he hath nickt it and yet I fear he is so far from hitting the White as he hath mist the But For first the Comparison is extremely wide Things ad extra and what are without us may be stated and determined by civil Judicatories but Faith is a thing mixt of the understanding and the will over which none can claim Jurisdiction Man may adjudge away my Land my Faith he cannot and therefore I must say with the Poet Hane animam concede mihi tua eaetera sunto Secondly in civil Differences will the Doctor say that the Judges decide the Question or the Law For if the Judgement be given according to the Law then the Law is the Judge I take it and if contrary to Law or not according to it he who so determineth is not a Judge but an Arbitrator Our Law judgeth no man c. saith Nicodemus there the Law was the Judge And though with us in England the Law is a kinde of Craft or Mystery full of Quirks and Intricacies yet in other places as in Denmark Onely the Parties at variance plead their own Cause and then a Man stands up and reades the Law and there 's an end for the very Law-book is the onely Judge saith my royal Author and adds Happy were all Kingdoms if they could be so Lastly where the Doctor saith It is not our meaning that every man shall run unto the Law-books We will though not yield it yet suppose it so in other Differences but in Divinity it is clearly otherwise for there is an expresse Command given by Christ himself not to the Pharisees onely but generally to all Search the Scriptures and it were a meer mockery in our Saviour to bid us Reade the Scriptures if they were like Caligula's Laws written in so smal an hand that we cannot reade them or in so obscure words as we cannot without the help of the Church in matters of Salvation understand them In like manner saving knowledge and divine Truths are the Portion that all God's Children lay fast claim to yet they must not be their own Carvers though it be their own meat that is before them whilest they have a Mother at the Table It is no Argument of ill
nurture for Children who are adult and grown to full stature and past the danger of cutting their own fingers sometimes to be their own Carvers though their Mother be at the Table But how commeth it to passe that the Doctor here placeth our Mother the Church in no obscure place neither but in the Carvers place at the Tables end where she should be visible enough and yet say afterward he would fain finde out this Church And if at the Table she be the more hard-hearted is she sure for truly Doctor I must say as Powhaton did to the Jesuit or Attaliba an Indian Prince too to Frier Vincent she hath carved me nothing no nor any man else for these fifteen hundred years and 't is an hard case that Children should cry and pine and sterve and die eternally for want of this Food everlasting which is before them and all because their Mother will not carve them and themselves they must not 'T is time then for God to take away and I heartily pray he may not take away and deprive this Church of that blessed Food for such wicked Tenets as this They must not slight all Orders Constitutions Appeals and Rules of Faith Most true the Churches Orders are not to be slighted nor yet to be obeyed without further disquisition and scrutiny the Apostle spake as to wise men yet left them to judge what he said so may the Church determine what she please and if not agreeable to my sense endeavour I will to inform my self better and if after after all my study I cannot subdue my Reason to hers yet to her Orders my outward conformity I will provided she makes no Rules of Faith and obtrudeth nothing destructive to saving principles things above her sphere Saving knowledge and divine Truths must not be wrested from the Scripture by private hands This is that we desire let them there remain fit it is that in what every man hath equal propriety he also should to it have equal accesse and most unfit that the means of eternal livelihood should be monopolized Doct. There is nothing more absurd to my understanding than that the thing contested which is the true meaning of the Scriptures should be Judge of the Contestation Nor to mine that any one should tell us what God meaneth better than he doth himself or that the Church a thing subordinate to Scripture and not to be known or discovered but by Scripture should tell us the minde of the Scripture better than it doth it self Doct. No way inferior to that absurdity which would follow would be this if we should leave the deciding of the sense of the words of the Law to the pre-occupated understanding of one of the Advocates Neither is this all the Absurdity that doth arise upon this supposition for if you grant this to one you must grant it to any one and to every one if there were but two how will you reconcile them both If you grant that this Judicature must be in many there are many manies which of those manies will you have Decide but this and you satisfie all Decide you it Doctor whence it concerns for your Church must be one of those manies and yet I believe you will not satisfie all not those I am perswaded whose suffrage is for the Scripture against all manies whatsoever If you make the Scripture the Judge of Controversies you make the Reader Judge of the Scripture Not so Doctor no Judge yet a more competent Judge to himself than any other or all the World can be seeing Knowledge and Understanding cannot be produced and perfected in any man any other way than by his own Reason If I make the dead Letter my Judge I am the greatest Idolater in the World A great Idolater you should then be I grant but not the greatest in the World for you worship then but what you see and something really existing but to worship such a thing as hath not yet been nor can be divin'd when it shall be as your Church is certainly must be the greater Idolatry of the two Doct. It will tell me no more than it told the Indian Emperor Powhaton who asking the Jesuit how he knew all that to be true which he had told him and the Jesuit answering him that God's Word did tell him so the Emperor asked him where it was He shewed him his Bible the Emperor after he had held it in his hands a pretty while answered it tells me nothing But you will say you can reade and so you will finde the meaning out of the significant Character and when you have done as you apprehend it so it must be and so the Scripture is nothing else but your meaning Not so Doctor but so it must be to me be it to the Doctor what he please nor perhaps shall it be always so to me as I now apprehend it for I am no infallible Judge to my self rectifie I may and will upon better reason what I formerly mis-apprehended upon worse Wherefore necessity requireth an external Judge for Determination of Differences besides the Scriptures If an external Judge besides Scriptures be necessary then necessary also it is that that Judge be first infallible for else better it were the Dissentions continued than the Error be stated and put into possession as may well be feared in an erring Judge Secondly that that Judges authority be allow'd of for infallible by general consent for else all will not abide her arrest and doom Lastly that that Judge be always ready and forth coming upon all emergent Differences to still them never out of the way never to seek for else the Differences will the more increase and fructifie by staying the longer for judicial sentence and decision Now because for these fifteen hundred years controversies have been and no such Judge as yet discovered in rerum natura to quiet them we may safely conclude from the no Judge a no necessity or accuse God for improvidence and neglect in leaving us destitute all this time of so necessary a Requisite Doct. And we can have no better recourses to any than to such as the Scripture it self calls upon us to hear which is the Church which Church would be found out The Scripture calls upon us to hear the Church but is this to hear to obey her Glosse and Interpretation of the Scripture to give up and resign our judgements to her sense Calvin Beza Grotius all Expositors the Context it self will tell you no it is to submit to her censure in point of satisfaction for mutual offence whereby she is scandalized so that Doctor you must before you finde the Church you so look for finde some other Text to warrant her Authority or she is like to be no external Judge whom all must obey in matters of Faith Here the Doctor takes breath and gives his most Excellent Majesty leave to speak who like himself most judiciously catechiseth the Doctor in the
and still the more they increased saith Dion himself an Heathen It may be here objected that Dion speaketh of the Jews true I grant it and as true it must be granted that Dion tells us also {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} This appellation is given to others also though of different Nations who adhere to the same principles of institution and what those are he tells us viz. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} They zealously worship a certain one God will not endure Images in their Temples observe the Sabbath and such were the Christians as well as the Jews nor must Dion be understood in this place to imply any so properly as the Christians who like the House of David at that time waxed strenger and stronger whereas the not Christianizing Jews like that of Saul waxed weaker and weaker And that by so inconsiderable so despicable means against so implacable so powerfull Opposites Christianity should so triumph so mightily prevail as that the conquered should command subdue and at length give Laws to the Conquerors till almost the whole World became her Convert Reason cannot conclude lesse than non haec sine numine This must be the Lord's doing that by the foolishness of this Word preached so many millions have been converted and made wise unto salvation The voice the Word of God it must be and not of man Lastly the failing and defection of other Religions about the time of our Saviours Incarnation the Heathen gods durst not abide his coming but forsook their stations abandon'd their Temples and left their Oracles speechlesse as Tully Juvenal and others assure us and Porphyry that sworn Enemy to Christianity confesseth that since Jesus came to be worshipped their gods have stood them in little stead The Jewish Religion which gloried so much in formality and external splendor was deplum'd and stript of all in a few years The Vrim and Thummim those pretious stones of the high Priests pectoral or breast-plate whose sparkling lustre an index of God's atonement and sure presage of Victory even dazled the eys of all Beholders about a hundred years before Christ's Birth lost their wonted radiancy and brightnesse and became ever after totally dusky and obscure evidently presignifying that the glory of the ceremonial Law was bidding the World good night To the fail of these Oracles succeeded the fail of the sacred Priesthood soon after by Herod alien'd and conferr'd in an arbitrary way on whom he pleased without regard had either to Law or Line The Priesthood thus prophan'd what remain'd but the complement and last act of desolation the destruction of the Temple which delay'd not after Christ's Passion above fourty years ever since which time the Jews have had neither true Priests nor true Sacrifices nor true places of Worship nor a true home All these are motives and inductions from Reason to make it credible that the Scriptures are the Word of God but not all these nor the Testimony of the Christian Church it self is able to create faith in us which must be ipso Deo intrinsecus mentem nostram firmante illuminante God himself inlightning and strengthning our inward mind for Faith is the gift of God and be the object never so credible believe we cannot till God's Spirit worketh Faith in us For the final resolution termination and rest of our Faith must be upon God alone and by him alone wrought in us That the Authority of the Church should be the sine qua non so absolutely necessary as that the inward witnesse of God's Spirit cannot warrant us that the Scriptures are divine without her testimony needs no further confutation than the History of the Evangelists and Acts where we reade of thousands converted to Christianity who never entred at that door In short to contract my discourse within a straighter compasse Faith being an Habit infused and every Habit requiring some preceding dispositions and degrees to it Faith must have hers also to make the thing credible before it be actually believed of these motives and preparatory dispositions the Tradition of the Church is I grant to us Christians the first and most prevalent but the Church is not herein in unsociable it is not her testimony alone will make it credible that the Scriptures are divine other deductions and inferences framed by light of Reason must and usually do co-operate in working the minde to that perswasion And by this time that famous place in S. Augustin is easily resolved which the Marques urged against his Maj. and Englished with more advantage to his cause than conformity to the minde of that Father I should not believe the Gospel it self unless I were moved by the Authority of the Church so the Marques But Saint Augustine Nisi commoverit unlesse the Churches Authority together with other inducements did move me to it clearly implying she could not move alone Having dwelt thus long and unavoidably upon this point lest the Doctor should think he hath quite lost me 't is high time to apply my self to him again This Church being found out and her Authority allowed of all controversies would soon be decided You say true indeed Doctor her Authority being allowed of but then it must be allowed of for divine and who will so allow it amongst us Protestants And how can it be proved she hath any such Authority you will send us back I know to Audi Ecclesiam But there will be a controversie what is the genuine interpretation of that place whether hearing implieth an absolute or limited submission and who shall decide that controversie You 'll say the Church I say no she must not for 't is her own case and she must not be {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} witnesse in her own cause that our Saviour held incompotent in himself If I bear witness of my self my witness is not true But the Doct. tells us 'T is one Article of our Creed I believe the holy Catholique Church That 's true too but 't is Credo sanctam Ecclesiam Catholicam I believe there is an holy Catholique Church not I believe in the holy Catholique Church As the Lion wants neither strength nor courage nor power nor weapons to seise upon his prey yet he wants a nose to finde it out wherefore by natural instinct he takes to his assistance the little Jack-call a quick-sented beast who runs before the Lion and having found out the prey in his Language gives the Lion notice of it now to apply this to our purpose Christ crucified is the main substance of the Gospel c. The Doctor is here fallen upon a comparison wherewith he is much taken I confesse I am not so well read to tell whence he had it nor of so easie belief to credit the Fable nor is it essential or to the purpose whether a Fable or a Story since the main design
the avoidance of one for a man may err in retractation of what he hath said as Bellarmine hath done more than once as well as in saying what he retracts but in one place there must of necessity be an Error light that Error where it may that Church which so erreth I shall be loath to trust with matters of Faith The last Rub in his Lordships way is so inconsiderable as I shall stride over it and accompany him to his Church M. First we hold the Real Presence you deny it we say his Body is there you say there is nothing but Bread Before I come to direct Answer I shall briefly and I hope not impertinently premise First it is fit those Opposite Terms of We and You being so considerable should be further explain'd What is meant by We is little question'd the M. certainly intends the Romish Church what by You he does not clearly resolve us till p. 159. and there he tells us in capital letters 't is The Church of England and indeed writing English to an English King not Head but a Member though the noblest of the English Church it cannot in reason be supposed he should under that word You point at any other than the Church of England So then the Church of England is his Lordships Youâ— and being so it is in my opinion a great blemish to his Honours Cause to charge and accriminate a Church with no less than Heresie and not with one onely but many very many and not produce any one Book or one Article where those Heresies are to be found but to accuse a Church of Heresies which are no where to be found and this he hath done very often is a blemish to his Honour as well as to his Cause What the Marques hath omitted in setting down the Doctrine of our Church shall be by me supplied and I will do it with that ingenuous integrity that I will not suppress any one syllable which may advantage her Adversaries in the least And first to the point of Christ's presence Thus The Body of Christ is given taken and eaten in the Supper onely after an heavenly and spiritual manner Observe here 's the Body of Christ so something more than bare bread then it is given taken and eaten if so 't is there sure and verily and indeed as the Catechisme hath it and the Church of Ireland substantially wee 'll grant that too so that it had been much more for his Lordships credit to have forborn the urging of this Real Presence against us Non opus erat ut ea contra nos diceret quae dicimus secum why should he urge that against us which we assert with him Well but is there no difference between us Yes a very great one Rome holds a Transubstantiation a Conversion of the whole substance of the Elements in the Sacrament into the very body and bloud of Christ as the Councel of Trent hath it why did the Marques suppress this Tenet Durst he not own it He is then no Papist for what that Councel hath determined the Papists do and must hold On the other side our Church saith Christs body is there given taken and eaten onely after an heavenly and spiritual manner Now you have heard what both sides hold wee 'll give the Marques his Scriptures leave to speak next Matth. 20. 26. Take eat this is my body Luke 22. 19. This is my body which is given for you I can see Christ's body here indeed but where 's the Conversion the Transubstantiation the Papists hold I cannot see that and though I can see Christ's body there yet there is something else which should be there I cannot see and that is Do this in remembrance of me which we conceive is an evident Explanation of the Mystery this his Lordship thought too hot for him so that if we stand to his carving we shall be sure to have that we have least minde to Now let his Fathers be produced Ignatius saith The Eucharist is the flesh of Christ so say we too and Ignatius tells you for all that it is Bread still and after Consecration too both are indeed most sure as Saint Hillary saith exceeding well Figura est dum Panis Vinum extra videtur veritas autem dum corpus sanguis Christi in veritate interius creditur It is the figure whilest the Bread and Wine are beheld outwardly but the truth it self when the Body and Bloud are inwardly in truth beleeved Justin Martyr saith That after Consecration the Elements become the body and bloud of Christ who doubts of it but speaks not of any Conversion of the substance nay saith expresly in the same place that the Deacons distribute after consecration the bread and wine clearly implying he thought not of any Transubstantiation but that the Elements kept their substance still Cyprian and Ambrose I confess spake the first of a Change the other of a Conversion of the Elements but 't is not of their substance neither but onely of their use Sunt quae erant in aliud commutantur They are still what they were before but are changed in quality Such a Conversion we grant too we hold the Elements after Consecration differ in use and virtue from common Bread and Wine Rhemigius speaks not of Conversion if Christ's body be there sure his flesh is and I never read of any other flesh he had than what he took in the Virgins womb The difference is not whether Christ's body be here but how And if I did not think it time mis-spent I could destroy this carnal Doctrine by the testimony of twenty several Fathers who all understand the Presence to be no other than as a Symbole Type figure representation signe image likeness and memory of Christ's body crucified upon the Cross and as for Transubstantiation they never dreamt of such a word nor thought of such a thing I will onely instance in one and I hope his word may be taken because a Pope Non desinit substantia vel natura Panis Vini The substance of Bread and Wine is not changed or destroyed So Gelasius M. We hold that there is in the Church an infallible Rule for understanding of Scripture besides the Scripture it self this you deny Our Church hath no where delivered her self expresly in this point yet I take it to be the General Doctrine of Protestants that there is no other Rule besides Scripture to understand Scripture that is infallible For if Scripture be an infallible Rule why should we cumber our selves with more than one unless this one were hard to come by or easie to be lost And it seems his Lordship thought Scripture was one infallible Rule when he said there is another besides it and Bellarmine comes in with his Convenit inter nos omnes omnino haereticos In this point we are all generally agreed Heretiques and all that the Word of God