for the worlds conversion carried any written Gospell at all wth them wch might be made by themselves much less is it to be thought that they staied to write out theirs having their own breasts so well fraught wth all that and far more than they found ther written especially considering that two of the Evangelists were but their pupills and disciples Nay before those Gospels were written out and completed especially that of S. John the Church of God was spread up and down the world and flourisht in all the duties of Christianity By wch it may appear that even the written Gospell is neither it self necessary to the being of the Church nor the reading or expounding of a text the essentiall work of Christianity As for the Epistles wch be the other part of the new Testament written by S. Paul and others These t is well enough known were pend a long while after the Church of God was perfectly formd and grown up in most parts of the known world in particular after those Churches of Rome Corinth Ephesus Galatia Thessalonica and the rest unto whom they are addrest were perfected in all the essentialls of Christian faith and they were occasiond merely accidentally upon the creeping in of some disorders and errours in those places contrary to the tradition of faith they had received as may soon appear to him that reads and understands the tenour of those spirituall Epistles So then the Church is antecedent to her Scriptur and altogether independant theron either for her being or profession helps of memory as all these writings be do presuppose both the memory and the things to be remembred before those helps were brought to light And so the reading of these Scriptures or hearing them expounded can no wise be the essentiall work of Christian religion or the totall exercise therof but somthing that is altogether independent of them more ancient than they be and that is more intrinsecally a worship homage adoration and service of the most high God than hearing or looking upon words and syllables can be I make no doubt but the whol Scriptur or writing of the new Testament both Epistles and Gospells was merely casuall and accidentall For I find it long ago foretold by the Prophets that the law and government of the Messias should in this differ from the Law of Moses that Moses Law was all committed to paper but the doctrin of Iesus should be writ in the heart and entrailes of his Church You may see one place in the Prophet Ieremy c. 31.33 wch the Apostle in his Epistle to the Hebrewes applies unto Christ our Lords dayes Heb. 10.16 and S. Paul doth not obscurely allude unto it in one of his letters he wrote to Corinth c. 3.3 Indeed to imprint in the churches breast a law from wch she should never deviat is in my judgment a greater argument of divinity than any written Gospell could afford The things wch Solon Numa Lycurgus Draco and other such like men contrived and dictated for the good of their common wealths did much commend their gravity vigilance and wisedome and elevated them above other men not above manhood Moses himself the most profound judicious Lawmaker the world ever had by the excellency of his written Laws hath merited the title of a divine and sacred legislatour but he is known to be a man by his hand-writing and the paper he wrote on He is a God that writes on the velin of the heart characters indelible unto eternity The Law of Christ onely is written not wth ink but wth the spirit of the living God not in tables of stone but in fleshly tables of the heart I do also verily think that the religion wch the Son of God deliverd to his church was neither commanded by him to be written nor yet ever intended either by the Euangelists or other of those primitiv writers to be totally set down under the notion of a rule of faith altho so much as ther is of it drawn principally for the use of devotion and charity be a rule of faith also What the occasion might be that moved the four Euangelists to write their compendious Gospells by the little learning I have I could never yet assuredly gather altho I remember I have read somthing thereof in a learned latin book made by a friend of mine called Systema fidei put forth some few years ago wherein be very many things of excellent learning worthy of the Authour but I have not now the book at hand Wt occasion moved S. Paul to write his Epistles unto Rome Corinth and other places is manifest enough and I shall afterward declare it when I shall come to discover the religion of the Apostles and Euangelists and make it appear that they were all papists and of the very self same religion Catholiks be of at this day All this put together that Christ himself neither wrote any thing nor comanded any thing to be written yea gave notice that he would use his speciall prerogative of legislatourship and write his law in hearts promising to animate the body of his Church wth his own spirit wch should lead them into all truth and that the church was disperst over the earth before any Christian writting was made wch was afterwards drawn to confirm and strengthen the faith and devotion it found already planted All this being true it follows apparently that hearing or reading or preaching upon a text is not the great capitall work of Christian Religion Indeed t is childishnes to think that God unto whom all prostration adoration all homage service and worship both of the outward inward man is more than due should be sufficiently served wth a little labour of the lips or ears when a man thinks good so to do Preaching is indeed necessarily antecedent to Christian faith yet it onely disposes unto furrher actions as may easily appear both by autority of Scriptures wch exclaime bitterly against such as hear and go no further and also by the very natur of hearing and all kind of exhortation wch ever tends to somthing besides it self For who ever heard onely to hear and no further who but our mad reformers ever preacht onely to be heard And how can speaking on one side and hearing on the other complete the whol duty of man to his God as if one were nothing but tongue and ear or had receivd nothing from him but those two organs Tell me Madam ingenuously Do not you think you have sufficiently done your duty to God if you go but forth once a Sunday to hear a Sermon and if you read a chapter or two in a week day this is nothing else in effect altho by your favour you do not think you self bound under sin to either but if you like the weather or the parson pleases or your clothes be neat and handsom then you will go forth to church if not you will stay at home if you find your self
put both the Byshopricks into one and gave him beath together Wine and wife are to mee as Bath and Wells Let me have beath as the Scotchman said VIC Go your wayes go Wer it not that you cast a glance of your eye now and then upon me when you ar in your pulpet you would be but a dry preacher T is even so Madam LA. Even so be it THIRD DIALOGUE VIC LO I com according as it is written Psa 40.9 Dear Madam good morrow to your Lap. It seemes I am the first to day somewhat earlier than ordinary but so it is written Thou shalt heare my voyce betimes in the morning Psa 5. O Sr Harry wellcom wellcom you could not stay long from us when both the spirit and the bride say Com Rev. 22. I le be the spirit for once especially when I am got up in a morning out of my bed And why not I pray you sith the very ruler of darknes when people are got up for conformities sake transforms himself into an angel of light 2. Cor. 11.14 KN. Health and happines attend my noble Lady this day and ever It pleases my eye Madam to behold the chear of your countenance this morning wch seems to promis to my purposes a good succes LA. I doubt not of good successe both to my wishes and your own if you will but relent a little of that hardnesse and obstinacy is in a manner naturall unto Papists I would not Sr Harry proceed so rigorously as to request you all at once to abjure the whole body of popery but to let fall at first the super fluous parts of it that do hāg looser on and be of least concernment and use and to stand so disposed as to think obstinacy unhandsom in any thing Papists say truely that they are built on a rock I think all their whole church is rock for one may as soon wth his teeth bite off a piece of marble as wrest from them any of their very least opinions so firm tenacious and obstinat ye be all of you Nay to save a whole Kingdom you will relent nothing at all What a masse of money did Harry the eigth spend for six yeares together in Embassadours and agents in Italy France Spain and Germany to procure the testimonys of Universityes and yet he was not able either for love or money although he were a magnanimous noble Prince to purchase so much as the hands or consent of any one University for the lawfulnesse of his affection to his sweet Lady Anne Bullen And the popes Cardinals although they received no small weight of good English gold from our Princely Harry insomuch that they could have wisht he had had his fill of her yet would they not be brought by any means to say he might lawfully do it Your Popes themselvs tho I confes they have been many of them very holy and learned personages yet som of them hav been known to be as bad as the worst and yet even thes have been as Zealous of the integrity of their faith as the greatest Saints and would sooner do ill than say it might be done Simony Pride Gluttony known and acknowledgd sins these some of them would act of their own accord but all the power of earth summond together should not force any of them to abrogat one article of their faith or traditions though it were but the sprinckling of holy water I read not long ago in an authentick story that the nobls and Prelats of England perceiving the resolution rage of K. Harry upon the forementiond affront certified the Pope by a privat Embassadour that if he did not some what relent and condescend to the Kings desires the whole frame of Catholik Religion in England wch already crackt would be utterly overthrown the nobility disgraced monasterys ruind Byshops deposed thousands imprisond and perhaps martyrd and the whole land undon To wch the pope replied frantick man as he was though the whole body of Christs church should be destroyed yea tho heaven and earth should mingle together in its old Chaos of confusion yet would he not declare that lawfull wch in conscience he thought was not so What a crabbed perversnesse was this He was certainly no Gentleman S ◠Harry that would not be perswaded tho heaven and earth should come together to chang his judgment KN. To be obstinat and heady in our own proper opinions is oftimes unseasonabl and unhandsom But the tradition wch the Church preservs is the very depositum of our B. Saviour whether it concern faith or manners practicall or speculativ beleef and no conceptions of privat or human judgments and therfor in al honesty to be preserved entire by the trustee of our Lord who committed it unto his church wth this caution that not one jota or apex therof should be altered And therfore that Pope who would not declare against his conscience although heaven and earth should com together did no more than what his Lord and Maister had said before him Heaven and earth shall pass away my word shall not pass not one jota orapex therof Luc. 21. And it was a doubl madnes in Harry the eigth doing himself evil to expect the church of God should say it was good Nor be there Madam in Faith any superfluous parts but the whole body of it hangs so cōcatenated and cemented together that the taking away of any one particl would ruin the whole fabrick nor will you find in faith any portion less strong than another but al equally invincible Som may be more leading points wherupon others depend and more materiall in their quality but in respect of our beleef the least hath as much firmnes of truth as the greatest And wtsoever sophistry may seem to shake any one apply the like engin to any other and in shall do as much that is to say in very truth nothing at al whatsoever it may appear to do in self beguiling minds Wherfore Madam bereaving me of any of my faith you rob me of all for it is an uncontroulable rule in faith what the Apostle also does as in a good sense it may be applied unto manners Qui delinquit in un◠factus est omnium reus Jam. 2.10 He that fails in one is made guilty of all This you would easily understand if you would consider how we receivd our faith and Christian doctrin For it was all equally handed to us at once and that from the autority of one and the same originall and it was extant in the world before any Scriptures were pend And these sacred Scripturs and other pious Books and also all generall councells that hav ever been celebrated in the Church were formed afterwards directed swayed rectified and ordered by this rule of Traditional doctrin committed to the Church and kept by her So that issuing conformably from one and the same sours all points of faith have an equall proportion of truth however they may differ in their own
materiall weight The intrinsecall valiew of some articles may infer more of necessity and obligation to an explicit beleef and practis but the least and smallest points do wth as much right as the greatest exclude a positiv misbeleef I am not bound to know or practis all things of the churches doctrin but I am bound not to disallow condemn or reject any of her traditionall Christianity has been equally handed from age to age unto us He that formally rejects any thing of this as fals doth vertually deny all the rest sith one and the same veracity deliverd all No mans privat reason invented any part of my beleef and therfor no mans reason can reject it Nay the highest points ar oftimes most contingent and consequently the least capable of a proof as Gods incarnation passion and resurrection and if mans conceits be once permitted to intermedle determin of the lesser or greater probability of points and cast away at his pleasur what himself thinks unlikly he will undoutedly go on from one negation to another till all be overthrown It may chance that in discoursing I may say somtime that all the articles of our Catholik faith be taken out of Scriptur wherin they be implicitly contained But in this I do but speak wth the vulgar and according to the capacity of hearers and t is indeed true in this sens for that all Catholik beleef is conformable to those sacred writings But in very truth to speak with wise men as well as we do think and ever shall beleev wth them the Scripturs themselvs those I mean principally wch make up the new Testament were drawn by the rule of our traditionall doctrin explicit faith and not our explicit faith gathered out of them This may appear by part of my former discours wherein I declared that the penning of Scripturs was meer accidentall and casuall and that all our traditionall faith was more ancient than Scriptur and altogether independent of it So that Scriptur and tradition go indeed hand in hand together as a joint rule of faith yet so as that Scriptur gives tradition the right hand as being its elder and judg of it self aswell as as cojudg wth it of all other doctrins For both Gospells and Epistles written in Apostles name were so far approved or rejected by the Church however they came equally armed wth Apostolicall names prefixt before them as they were found consonant or dissonant to the churches tradition For ther were more Gospells written than the four we hav and far more Epistles than thos the church admitted to her cannon And this is the reason why the Apostles themselvs and Disciples met together to try whether the preachings and writings of all their missionaries were punctually conformable to the tradition they had received from wch meeting S. Paul himself though an Apostle not of men neither by man but by Jesus Christ and God the Father Gal. 1.1 Yet would he not be exempted from that meeting After three years saith he I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter and abode wth him fifteen dayes Gal. 1.18 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem wth Barnabas and took Titus wth me also And I went up by revelation and comunicated unto them that Gospell wch I preach among the Gentiles but privatly to them wch wer of reputation least by any means I should run or had run in vain Gal. 2.1.2 By wch I think it may be gathered that the church is above the Scriptur and of greater autority than either Paul or Barnabas or any wtsoever single man and member of the Church sith she judges every ones doctrin to the approbation or rejection of it For a judg is more noble than the thing wch is subject to his censur the rule than the thing examined and ruled by it and to giv an approbation is in that formality more excellent than to receiv it Neither was ever any generall councell cald together to teach the church her doctrin But upon the rising of heresys judging by the rule of their tradition the Prelats in councell confirmd the Catholiks in the way they found them in and declared against hereticall innovations that they might desist from further commotion This rule of tradition found in the hands practis of Christians disperst over the earth left them by their forfathers could not fail so long as it was found universally agreeing in the whole Catholik body wch is animated by the spirit of infallibility especially being strengthened by testimony of Apostolicall writings wch were nothing but a part of the churches tradition coppied out or the fathers that succeeded them or other monuments that were yet remaining amongst them As for example the Christians found an injunction of praying for the dead upon the very wals windows gravstones and monuments of their deceased forfathers commended also unto them both by teachers their living books and by books their dead teachers and all children found their parents in the beleef and practice of it And therfor it was concluded that it could be no other than as it was thē esteemd an article of pure Christianity sith the whol body of Christians then present held it so their forgoers and fathers deliverd it sacred Scriptures sufficiently insinuated it Catholik writings and monuments confirmd and comended it unto them So that Madam that piece of popery you would take from me being a part of this Catholik tradition will be as hardly wrested from me as the Gospell it selfe wch the same tradition has deliverd as a coppy conformable for so much as it is unto it selfe the first and universall rule of faith by wch pape himselfe and all generall councells are guided so subject unto it that they can act nothing against it as may appear by the proceedings of the Catholik church from its very first birth and uprising unto this present day Pope Iohn the 22d. a learned man much given to reading found in many places of the Greek and Latin fathers as also in texts of sacred Scriptur as he conceived that the souls of Christians deceased went released out of purgatory thence into some place of repose on this side heaven and eternall bliss where they expected the consummation of their number that all the Catholik body might at the end of the world enter paradis together This opinion by the multitud of autoritys and arguments appeard unto him so probable that he sent it to some Christian Universitys to have their judgment if that were not indeed Christian beleef But they rose up against it and rejected it as dissonant to tradition For the Pape tho he be Overseer of the whole church yet being but one single man he cannot of himself discern the universality of a tradition so well as the whole Catholik body may do and therfor he never defines faith but with that Body conciliarly assembled and if himself i th interim should light upon an opinion how probable soever it
one another whence is it that we all conspire to hate condemn and rail against the Catholik Church having as much cause to inveigh against one another and let her alone as to rail against her alone and applaud one another This is a shrewd sign we ar all rebels to that one Church and hav no truth amongst our selvs For one truth is opposit to twenty falshoods and these falshoods however they be contrary to one another that one primary truth still stands against them all Catilin and Cethegus and the other conspiratours against Rome their mother City could fall out one amongst another tho they jointly resisted her and she as indifferently confronted them all Besids these reformers must needs be liars all of them if we may beleeve any of them For as they did most vehemently inveigh against that part of popery wch themselves rejected so did they tooth and nail defend the purity of that portion they still retaind wch by the succeeding reformers was deeply censurd and condemnd And so from the very first to the last they still condemned one another for wt they retaind as the Church of God condemnd them all for wt they rejected Who shall unfold this riddle or tell me in wch reformation the truth lies Surely in non of them if by the mouth of two witnesses a truth may be established for ther is ever the Catholik Church and one reformation against the judgment of any other reformation every sect hath still the Church against her for one and some other sect if not all other reformations besides Ar all thes men sent from God for one and the same thing yet all fail in doing it and al condemnd by one another in the deed Still wt any one of them casts away is popery and what he keeps is the sincere word and will of God tho not only the Church that censurs them all together but even all other reformations say the contrary So that if we put all judgments together ther will result thus much That the Catholik on the one side all sectaries of severall opinions on the other they be all Papists and differ but secundum magis minus So that the Roman is a Catholik Papist and all the rest be heretick Papists but Papists all For every sect is condemnd by his fellowes of some popery and the Church as the source of all And indeed all sects do retain som thing more or les of that religion and faith wch our land received at first from the pape and wtsoever positive doctrin they still keep they had it onginally from him At least they keep all of them the Bible eyther whol or in part wch is the great book of the pope wch he ever sends wth his missioners since he orderd and canonised it to any nations conversion as conformable to the great rule of Christian faith wch is tradition And consequently if the Papist be a child of Antichrist all sectaries are no other so far as they be Christian or have any thing of Christianity amongst them onely wth this difference that the mark of the beast if he be a beast is lesse in som than it is in others but t is in the for heads of all so many as be baptised and beleeve in Christ by his means and missioners and by the Sacraments and precepts they had originally from him VIC The Lord shield us from the fiend of darknesse the pope upon my forehead the Bible the popes and all we Papishes confute him husband some way or other if this be true hee l not fear texts at all LA. S. Harry you have brought things about very strangly Can you think ever to perswade us that we have any thing of popery in us KN. Assuredly you have so much as is not yet clipt of by reformation be it more or les And this discours I have faln upon insensibly to mitigat the strang rancour against Catholik religiō wch people conceiv by contagion of custome and not any true knowledg they have thereof and the pleasing opinion each one fosters of the reformation himself is part of Take the four generall opinions that be now in England the Catholick the Protestant Presbyterian and independent Consid er seriously and you shall find that as they be antecedent in time so still the succeeding is but a deficiencie from the foregoer and the last the greatest negation of the positions laid by the first yet still what he holds positively he hath it from him and the first wch is the Catholik had all his whole positive faith from the Pope as himself professes and our own histories witnesse part whereof was cut of by the Protestant as the Presbyterian after him took away some things wch the Protestant still retaind and the Independent others wch the Presbyterian kept He is very ignorant in history that discerns not by his reading how the Catholik now existent in England retains universally all the points of faith wch were brought hither into England at its conversion from paganisme by S. Austin and other good children of blessed S. Bennet sent hither to that purpose by Pope Gregory eleaven hundred years ago concerning priests altars sacrifices the reall presence merit of good works consecrations pennances purgatory lents pilgrimages popes supremacy and the rest to the least iota of wt they then received Nor hath he any parcell of faith either over or under wt he received then so that the Catholik is a papist in print and a legitimat child of that venerable pastour A thousand years after the Saxes or English-mens conversion and the unanimous profession of the Catholik faith all that while in an unluky ho wt rises Luther who having been himself born and and bred up in the bosome of the Church through the instigation of Satan and his two instruments pride and lust apostatised from the Church and made a reformation as he called it wherunto the worst of people at first adhered altho now both wise and honest minded people go along wth it not so much by their own choise as unfortunate custome This protestancy took away at once almost three parts of the Churches practicall doctrin retaining the speculative Within the compasse of ten years it had run into severall divisions or subreformations in Germany Holland Switzerland and Geneva Upon Harry the eights schism and afterward these people of severall Reformations cam flocking over into England by whos severall directions to pleas all parties was made up that miscellan of the English protestancy by rejection of severall points of the Catholik faith then in our land some according to Luther others according to Calvin Swinglius the rest together wth an establishment of an apish prelacy in stead of the Catholik one wch had beene overthrown for the security of the state and of the fond Church they had then set up the other few remainds of our Catholik faith now wholly dismembred yet standing as the base of this
may seem by human arguments yet must he himself as well as other Christians lay it aside if it be confronted by Catholik tradition the great and unresistable Rule of Christianity resign himself And it seems a principle of faith had delivered unto Christians this beleef that a soul once expiated goes to heaven Pope John tho he had reason to suspect so much so that he might hav abstained from propounding his thesis yet he did not propound it in councels where faith is determined but in Schools wher opinions are disputed and distinguisht from faith and upon that account was he justly to be excused Yet was that good Prelat so tender conscienced that he is said to have askt the world forgivenes at his death if they took any offence therat adding wthal that he did it only to give them occasion to search more narrowly whether the opinion were not consonant to tradition although it had not been yet heeded If then neither Pape nor councell can go contrary to the received waies of the Church in any thing how shall I be able to do it except I make shipwrack of my faith as S. Paul affirms Hymeneus to have don even by one fals opinion though otherwis a Christian 1 Tim. 1.19 For a lesser leak will drown a ship if it be not stopt or pumpt out so will any one errour in faith sink a self opiniating spirit For in the least we shall as truly resist God the first revealing verity as in the greatest and to gainsay him in any little thing who is equally infallible in all is no les than blasphemy and an insolence intolerable Sith it stands not wth his diety to be mistaken in the smallest matter or mislead his church therin LA. The church me thinks for the quiet and safty of a kingdom might well condescend to som opinions that be not so much materiall put case they were fals for in evills the les is to be chosen and that opinion cannot be so bad as the ruin of a whol Kingdom KN. The Church being a just depositary cannot teach otherways than she has receivd in any affair Besides Christ will hav his spous to be wthout spot or wrinkle or any such thing Eph. 5.27 and that opinion being against her tradition it cannot but make a wrinkle or spot or some such thing at least in her T is sacriledg wth us to rob or steal any thing out of a materiall temple what then would it be to purloin the Churches doctrin To rent her own seamles garment or make the least hole in it were an action unbeseeming the wisdom and modesty of the heavenly spous Shee will never do it nor no member of her body such as by Gods grace I am can do it without death and ruin to it self Try that will whosoever entertains but one particular misbeleef he shall soon find that being therby separated from the Catholik body he or his successours will soon attempt another and never lin till all be layd wast Besides the Church being but a depositaty or keeper of the doctrin committed to her charg hath not power over it to exhang distrain or make it away at her pleasur against the rules of honesty And if she should to content one sort of innovatours chang or relent in one thing others that would innovat in another may justly challeng the same favour and what should she then have had remaining to her self after so many innovations made by hereticks in so many ages I think very little or nothing at all by this time T is worth your consideration to ponder this For so you may perceiv both the integrity of this immaculat spous in conserving the doctrin wherwith she has been intrusted intire and wholly sincere and the madnes of all sectarys who would each in their wild fansys have the churches compliance wth them to her own ruin and being denied flew out into all exorbitances against her and forfeyted at once by their self opinions and obstinacy both the title of Catholik they had till then enjoyed and the security they had in the churches bosom This is a worthy and profitable speculation And therfor I shall indeavour to speak therof wth as much order method as can well be used in a matter of such disorder as the confused heap of heresys jumbled together may admit THe Churches doctrine is partly about the creation and Scriptures of the old Testament partly about our redemption and things peculiar to Christianity their persons or places precepts or counsells vices or vertues Sacraments and works either morall naturall or politicall in all wch severall hereticks have at times sought to bring in innovations wch had the church complied wthall she had had little or nothing left her by this time Nay she should have contradicted her self continually and said and denied the same things The extravagancys concerning the creation either opposed the autority of canonicall books or judgd amiss of the divine natur angels and souls the beginning of the world the condition of Adam and Eve our first parents Melchisedek and the like things wch wer antecedēt to our redēption Carpocrates and Cerdon in the time of pope Hygin rejected all the old Testament Ebion on the other side made the old Testamēt to be of equal autority wth the new and out of the new he cast forth al S Pauls Epistles as erroneous Cerdon and Marcion disallowed all the Gospells besides S. Luke Cerinthus all but S. Mathew the Alogians received all but S. Iohn Luther cast away S. Iames Epistle and the books of Maccabees tho he knew that not onely S. Austin but the whole councell of Carthage had received them as canonical Severus the Acts of the Apostles Apelles taught that the Prophets spake contradictories and lies Montanus that they understood not what they said though they are called seers for their understandig Isa 1. and are said to speak as inspired by the holy Ghost 2. Pet. 1. With which of these should the church comply and how The Gnosticks would have two Gods one from whence issue good things the other author of evill The Anthropomorphits in the time of pope Damasus would have God to be truly corporeall as man is The Armenians becaus God had said that Cain should not be slain by any man would needs have him a lier becaus Cain slew himselfe Sabellius in the time of pope Sixtus 2. would not admit any more then one person in God Arrius in pope Sylvesters time opposed the equality of the three divine persons The Alogians acknowledged not the Son of God to be the word The Ignoites maintained that Christ was ignorant of som things in particular of the day of judgment Macedonius in the time of pope Liberius made the Holy Ghost inferiour to the Father and Son not of the same essence wth them but a creatur Petrus Abaylardus said that the Holy Ghost was the soul of the world The Greeks that he proceeded not from the Father
power and captivity offaith To conclud the word and will and works of God are absoluty superiour to every created thing and not to be alterd or innovated by man nor to receive either diminution or increas from him and consequently the religion he has reveald to the sons of men of his owne free love and bounty is to remain sacred and untoucht by any creatur how ever man may domineer over his owne inventions to perfect and mend them at his pleasur What is invented and made by man may by man be either betterd or made wors at his pleasur by what change he pleases But Gods works are altogether above his creaturs reach and his will is unch angable He made all things perfect and if he did not who is he can add to their perfection Children begot by men do by mans help and direction increas daily till they come to perfect age but Adam created imediatly by God was in all liklihood made at first in his full perfection and growth LA. I must Sr Harry cut of the thread of your discours that the Doctour who hath in civility forborne to interrupt you may have his time to speak VIC And indeed that is fulfild in me that is written I held my peace even from good things I was dumb wth silence and my heart was hot wthin me whils I stood musting the fire burned then spake I wth my tong Ps 39. MIN. Well Sr Harry this your discours is all good and orthodox but it maks so much to my purpos against your self that I could not my self have contrived a mor convenient battery against popery For if you consider right it rather confirms than destroys our reformations Religion is wthout all doubt above man and not subject to any vassalage of his fansy But you say wth all and that truly that what man does man may undo And ther 's the point Now popery in the pure and formall sens and acceptation of the word signifys onely that fardell of human additions superadded by the ignorance and superstâ—tion of men to the pure and sincer religion which the Lord taught us and is therfor a sacriledg not to be suffred in the Christian world but to be taken away and severd from the sincerity of divin truth like chaff from the corn so that our question is not whether you may add unto faith or we take from it wt is added or taken away being granted on both sides to be a part of faith and yet put in or out by our selvs for t is agreed upoÌ„ by us both that neither of thes things may be don without sacriledg But whether it be lawfull for us to reform or take away from the body of divin faith wt you hav impiously added thereunto of your own and obtrud upon us as divin revelation being indeed but human superstition This is the thing wch Luther and Calvin began to do and by other particular persons and parlaments is daily mor and more effected not only wthout sacriledg but wth much comendation of piety so that our reformations ar indeed diminishments not of Gods religion but of mans superstitions we take from the church not the stones or rafters but the rubbish mire and filth wch is brought in by slovenly autiquity even burdensom to the purity of faith Reforming religion we touch nothing at all we meddl wth nothing that is Gods but leaving al that untoucht we cast out the ordur of human traditions whereby the fincerity of faith was defaced and so we give to every one his own that wch in Cesars to to Cesar and that wch is Gods to God the legends of Damasus Gregory Anaclet and I know not who these being the dreams of his doating predecessors we cast forth to the Pope and popish to put up in their archivs the pure tabls of the law remaining in the ark of the Testament wth uswch being once happily purgd we purpos ever to conserv underfiled If it be a cursed thing to add unto the word of God as Papists hav don t is blessednes to tak it away again VIC I may say to thee sweet heart as David said to Abigail Blessed be the Lord wch sent the this day and blessed be thy advice and blessed be thou who hast kept me this day from shedding of blood For in very deed except thou hadst spoken this wise word wch shall suffice at this time I had brought a reason that had destroyd the Papists at a blow even every one of them that pisseth against the wall 1 King 25. KN. T is the good Dr agreed on all sides that nothing is to be added unto or taken from the word of God and our divine faith first delivered You say also that your reformations tak away continually some less som more but onely such things as be of human invention affirming this action not onely lawfull but comendabl This is the sum of your reply That the articles of Christian religion rejected by the reformation and by you called Popery be no human additions I should easily make it appear if I should run over the whole body of them and show from point to point that each parcell and particl thereof is equally ancient and divine wch would soon be evinced if the autority of those Scripturs you pretend to admit the joint acknowledgment and practis of all times and testimony of all antiquity both councells fathers and doctours and severall other monuments left in the Christian world which be greater than any we have to evince that William the Conquerour once raignd here in England may sufficiently prov them to be such But this cours I intend not to enter upon at least at this time becaus we ar but yet in generalls and besides this work is already done to my hands so magisterially solidly copiously by many renowned writers especially in the Latin tong that it were superfluous to insist theron had I either time or place or will to do it If you will not beleev them I have little hopes to prevail over so prodigious and obstinacy wch after such ample satisfaction given will say still that Catholik REligion so much as loos men listed 〈…〉 superstition and inventions of men I have morover one general ruâ—… 〈◊〉 I reserv for another discours to demoâ—â—â—…re that that Catholik faith you call popery â—s truly divine For if you do but read your own antiquities or the records of any other Christian kingdom you shall find that the conversion of our own and all other nations from idolatry and paganism was effected by that Catholik faith wch at one and the same time brought into the land both the news of Christ to the ear and the sight of the Crucifix to the eye both the necessity of faith and the merit of works both God in the fulnesse of time incarnat in the blessed virgin and incorporat really in the Eucharist both feast daies and lents both the popes supremacy and Priests power the news
humane superstructur Under this Protestant prelacy differing from all other reformations in the world bred the Puritan who was so chekt kept under all the raigne of K. Iames that when he came to be teemd forth by strength of natur and multitud of seed he was born double and came two forth together the younger brother supplanting the elder and thrusting himself into his place even in that instant that the elder had eat himself a passage through his Protestant mothers bowells This was the Presbyterian and Jndependent both rejecting somthing of that had been conveyed to them by the Protestant but the Independent more than the other But what either of them kept he received it by the Protestant as the Protestant had done from the Catholik the sole universall Professour of the whol Christian faith Now then the whol body of Christian faith and doctrin kept by the Catholik as it was wholly receivd at first from the pope the generall father of the Christian church so must it needs be all indifferently Papisticall upon that account and not that part onely wch a Reformer dislikes and calls so and consequently every parcell therof retaind by any Reformer is as properly Papisticall as wt he rejects and altho he cals it not so yet t is so stiled by another Reformer who likes not to retain it as he does and for no other reason but because as it issued so is it maintaind and practised by the popish Church wch reason holds good as well in him that likes it as him thy likes it not By this rule it will follow irrefragably that all the four professours be papists as also be all others who professe Christianity upon the face of the whole earth either in whole or part aswell those that keep their whole faith entire and respect the Pape as they that retain onely some part and defy him for ingratitud and pride can exempt no man from the denominatiō so long as he still beleeves or practises any part of that Christianity has been handed to him from the Pope and Popish Church as all men in England I am sure do and to avoid all further cavill t is solely of them I now speak If four or five generations of men arising from one stock should be all of them shorter by the head one than another the first generation completely resembling the father the second les by the head than he and the third yet less by the head than the former his imediate progenitour so to the last in like manner It would be ridiculous for the last descendents because they want much of the person statur of the first originall or stock to deny that they have therfore any thing of him or from him speaking against those severall inches they have not at the same time to magnifie the few inches wch they have and blaspheme him from whence they have received them And yet this is directly the case of all reformers and reformations to boast of the Christianity they keep and villify that part they reject as superstitious and popish whereas both wt they reject and wt they keep did descend equally and indifferently from the Popish or Catholick Church And if our English sectaries should render up to the Pope and Popish Church all they have had from her I do not know any one positiv point of Christianity speculativ or practicall they should have remaining except that harmonious song of mellifluous Robin red breast Preserv us Lord. Thus much may suffice to show that all England be Papists some Catholick Papists other heretick Papists but Papists all Sith every part of Christian faith brought altogether in one entire body of doctrine by a messenger of Pope Gregory to the English at our conversion from paganisme was equally papisticall equally received in the Catholik church and with the like indifferency communicated to our land from her Head and Pastour And the having of it more or less maks som less papists than others but not no papists Even as in musick if a sem breef be a full time a minnom tho it be but half so much is a notion of time so is likwis a crotchet tho it be but half a minnom and a quaver wch is but half a crotchet so that a minnom is half a sem breef a crochet the fourth part and a quaver tho it be but the eight part yet a part it is and nothing els Even so be thes four severall religions in England every one of them either complet popery or part of it the Catholick as it were a seem breef the protestant a minnom the Presbyterian a a crochet and the Independent a quaver And truly to keep one piece of popery and reject others deliverd by the same hands and upon the very selfsame grounds seems to me neither a safe cours nor yet a reasonabl proceeding For the whol stream of Christian doctrin was deliverd unto us as issuing indifferently from a divin originall and if this report be true no man may tampar or meddl at all in that sacred issue of divin will as I have already shown if fals t is all equally to be rejected and paganism or atheism to succeed in its place But our reformers will have that to be popery or human wch any of them rejects wthout ever rendring a reason therof to satisfy any moderat and indifferent man sith what ever they say against any one thing may be as well applied to any other Nor is religion like philosophy to be held by the propability it carrys in our understanding for then it wer not faith but reason nor should our understandings be otherwis captivated to divin revelations that to human positions or subjected to God more than to man And yet again if probability should carry it a wise judicious man that is unprejudiced in his judgment shall I am comfident find more difficulty to beleev the very history of the Bible than any articl of the Catholik religion rejected by reformers and as much reason to keep all articles as any But sith reformers will have that popery wch any of them rejects that he retains pure Gospell I for my part grant both But then I make no difference at all betwixt popery and pure Gospell nay the Gospell is so far pure as it is conformable to popery the traditionall doctrin of the Catholik church wch is the rule and square of all preachings Writings Letters Sermons Epistls Gospell andall And therfor that any reformation in religion is a purification of the Gospell from popery taken in your sens that is to say from human inventions superstitions and errours this I must flatly deny or that the popery men exclaim against is any such thing And as I can never my self be perswaded to the contrary so me thinks I should perswade even you my dear Lady and you also Mr Parson with your witty bedfellow to be of my mind VIC Who I God forbid Let them cleav
unto Baal that list I my people will follow the Lord as it is written in Scriptur For I will never beleev but this scriptur came from God and not from the Pope as you talk Sr Harry from heaven and not from Rome LA. By your favour sweet Mistres I have heard say that S. Marks Gospell was writ-ten in Rome first and originally in Latin I find also in my Bible that some of Pauls Epistls were written and dated from Rome as those he wrote to the Galatians Ephesians Philippians Colossians the second to Timothy that to Philemon and haply that to the Hebrews wch was dated from Italy And the Epistle which was written on purpose to the Romans was assuredly carried to Rome before it was brought hither and must come thence to us So that if they did come from heaven it seems Rome is either heaven it self or in the way twixt us and heaven for they were there first either brought thither or written there and thence cam over into England and other countries But to turn to you Sr. Harry me thinks you ar now too confident and seem to put on a refolution too much opposit to the hopes I have of you and consequently to the hopes you may hav of me for I cannot love an infidel as a friend much les as a husband VIC So indeed Madam it is written Be not unequally yoakt wth unbeleevers for we fellowship hath righteousnes wth unrighteous nes or wt communion hath light wth darknes KN. I begd the favour Madam to utter my mind freely and I think you granted it For t is wth an il affected mind as wth a diseased body neither can be made whol till they they hav purgd themselvs of their ill humours MIN. I am ready Sr to prove from point to point that al we hav in our reformation rejected is the pure inventions of men whereof the principal is that tyrant of Rome that Babylonian Antichrist the Pope VIC The whole Book of Revelations was made against that Beast Let me but read six or seaven Chapters and you will be affrighted I warrant you Now he rises out of the Sea then tumbles out o th clouds then ascends from the deep pit on a fiery red Hors or black hors wth seaven horns or ten horns accompanied wth armed locusts death and dragons KN. We will not descend unto particulars as yet Giv me leav now only to tell you in generall that those rejected parcells of our ancient Catholik faith cannot in any probability be thought human inventions For the Roman Catholik church whence all our religion issued doth own them indifferently wth the rest for integrall parts of the Christianity she at first deliverd And reformers never yet agreed together wt or how many of those parcells wer human and upon that account to be rejected And yet if they had had any certain knowledg either from God or man either by history or grounded reason they would not wth so much disagreement amongst one another hav by degrees cast off som one part some another of that religion they receivd at first altogether upon one the sam motiv of the Revealers infallibility This disagreement of reformers as it cannot but bring themselvs if they would but open their eyes into some suspitiō of uncertainty so to me unto whom uncertain grounds of faith are no grounds at all they ar a sufficient conviction of errour fraud Again these presented popish superstitions and human inventions rejected even by Protestancy were both very many and verry weighty at about the reall presence apostolicall traditions the papes supremacy merit of good works sacrifice of mass sacramentall absolution use of images invocation of Saints seaven sacraments vows shrines priesthood and the like even in a manner the whole body of practical religion Thes if they be additions of man must either be ignorantly taken up by the people or imposed upon them by their prelats As for the peopl if nothing at the beginning had ere been taught them but only to beleev in Christ it is not possible morally speaking that such things as thes should ever com into their heads but t is altogether and absolutly impossible that they should be taken up universally by all people of the earth together and that not by parcells as now they are cast away but the whol body of them together wth such unity and consent as hath been ever found in all Christian kingdoms of the world none of the peopl in any kingdom gain saying their fellows nor Prelats resisting If you say the Prelats imposed them This must be don either by violence or fraud either by strong hand or som insensibl introduction Such main weighty tangible points as thes wch were to be brought not onely into peopls heads but hands and daily and hourly to be practisd can never be thought by any sensibl man to have been insensibly introduced or insensibly receivd or insensibly liked of wth so much prejudice of carnall eas and sensuality I say wth so much prejudice of sensuality as fastings watchings almsdeeds justiciary satisfaction vows of poverty obedience and chastity pennances cloisturs and religious monasteries must needs bring upon the world For the same reason violence offred to the people whether at the same time or severall ages in such businesses of main importance of great weight and of much servitud could never pass so smoothly or be so tamly admitted by all Christian kingdoms wherof some be at deadly feud opposition and war with one another others of a natur more refractory and not so carfull to keep wt they have once receivd som sooner som later converted so that no nois should be made therof no cours taken to resist it no dislike of the doctrin no difformity of beleef He can never beleeve this who knowes either the nature of the world or the disposition of the Catholik Church The world is naturally tumultuous impatient of new yokes apt to insurrections slow to admit a restraint and no les prone to omit neglect and reject wt is servilely imposd upon them especially if it be don wthout just autority and contrary to peopls inclinations The Catholik Church on the other side he that knows her and hath beheld her proceedings from age to age may easily discern how ticklish and scrupulous she is how she startls at the very news of the least innovation or new fangldnes in any of her peopl wch if it do increas how small so ever the matter may be in it self the Catholik body rises up against it will not rest till by a councell it be condemnd This is the motiv of calling so many councells as have been since Christianity first began and of the severity ther used even in som things a man would hardly deem considerable It would even delight a man reading the history of the church in learned Baronius and others to see the Churches industry and watchfulnes on all occasions to prevent new fangldnes the labour
will or no printing and preaching presse and pulpet Mr Iohn an oaks Mr Prinne cannot utter any thing but truth Innovations papists do nothing else but make innovations they cannot eat or drink or sleep but the must do it and mischief is their very life LA. God mend all SECOND DIALOGUE LA. I have Sr Harry brought you here again your souls phesitian to understand the symptoms of your diseas and apply an agreeable remedy therunto KN. I shall Madam as well as I may both declar my sicknes and respectfully receiv his remedy LA. Com doctour you look blith upon t to day I take it for a good sign VIC And I am glad for sooth to see my husband cherfull for sadnes as it is written dries up the bones Pro. 17. MI. I bring you good news Sr Harry The work of reformation we perswade you unto is as easily effected as t is to cast of a heavy cloack in a burning midsommers day All popish practises as I in order shall name them to you do but you in the same method reject them and you shall in one half hour becom a Protestant in three quarters a Presbyterian in a whol howre an Independent and so be reformed at your leysur and wth eas KN. You say not all this while what shall guid me in this action MIN. The word of God that guides you Sr to the will of God KN. The means and end of his motion being coincident a man may well hope for an undisturbd tranquillity in the period MIN. Wt can disturb you Sr being built upon the rock of the bible wth more or les hold thereon according to the natur of the reformation KN. Wch reformation has the best hold MIN. Let them look to that I le not meddle wth those disputes KN. I have both read and heard of the rock of the Church but the rock of the bible you are the first man I know ever used the phrase MIN. The Church and her doctrin be all one the Churches doctrin and scriptur is the same and so the rock of the church and rock of the bible cannot be two severall things VIC Well said sweet heart This is now a little above me But so it is written The husband is above his wife and she shall be under and subject to him Gen. 3. MIN. The summe of all is Betake your self to the pure scripture And t is enough KN. Ther is much talk of Scriptur and all the sectaries have ever risen tho never so many or never so opposit one to another have still pretended it nay the devill urged his temptation wth a scriptum est Matt. 4. so that I feare the proposall of this either means or rest will prove but wast of time Give me leav to tell you that the messenger of the Gospell of peace who by a mission from pope Eleutherius converted the Brittons from paynisme to Christian faith in the second age of the church and the other from pope Gregorius who reduced the Saxes or English in the fift gave them all their religion as well explicitly in all the articles of their Christian faith as implicitly in the bible they deliverd into their hands wherin those articles by incidentall occasion lay casually coucht Now to take away all those explicite articles drest and prepared allready to our hands and give us the bible is the same thing as to take from men all the gold and silver already coined wth so much care and industry of princes and show them a mine whence such things may be digd wthout affording eyther work men skilfull in the art or instruments for the purpos Imagin in such a case wt disorder and confusion would happen when thousands of people are gatherd together about a mountain none verst in digging or fitted wth instruments for it none accustomed to the hollowes of deep earth none skild in finding out the vein none expert in discerning the oare or to melt it into bullion or stamp it into coin And yet all of them equally conceyted as undertaking ignorance uses to be and indifferently judging and condemning the works of each other It cannot otherwise happen in such a case but that some should tumble into precipices some be somtherd in the earth below some after much toil bring forth a handfull of clodded earth lead or iron oare and perhaps a slat or peble in the stead of mettall and if haply any one meet wth the right he will either not heed it as not appearing to be such or loose it in the allay melting or stamp In fine where so much curiosity and art is required in the manifold degrees of procedur yet none had by any and profest by all to the disparagement of one another wt can result from such an attempt but disorder nois confusion and hazard emulation quarrell amongst themselves Nov can they ever effect any thing to the generall agreement liking of all or repair the coin that is destroyd This is in all points our very condition when the Christian articles of faith wrougt out and stampt for us and deliverd us by our primitiv pastours according as they had received them from Jesus Christ the prime Inventour and Work-man of our faith are principitously annuld and the Bible put in mens hands to dig out from thence by their own skill and industry the results of their religion Nay the case here is so much the more desperat in that the common people wth the tradition of the Bible receiv this caution from the reformers that they take heed of such and such abrogated articles of popery wch as they do ever and anon appear in the Scripturs they hav to peruse so are they indeed the very pith and marrow of that sacred Book and the golden metall they are onely to seek for So that being left unto their own shallow judgments if it were then improbable they should ever light upon the whol sincere truth of good now being adviced and prejudiced against it altho they should happly light upon it t is impossible wth that prejudice they should ever embrace and adhere unto it That the articles of Catholik religion abrogated by reformers were all stampt out for us by our primitiv Pastours and have gon currant in the whol Christian world from the beginning to this day hath been proved a hundred times over and over by learned Catholik divines both for the generall in each particular And that it is an impious tiranny to take them all away and put people to seek new out of the Bible I think it will easily appear to an understanding man if he do but consider the way-wardnes of mans will prone to evill and averst to good such especially as is annext to bitternes and pains the fallacy of his fansy and weaknes of his understanding wch we cannot but perceiv to fail even in things that be in our very senses and that both by deficiency and errour both by want of apprehension and