so little subtilty that every body does the like almost in every occasion There remains only to examine upon what Principle those who assert these errors proceed whether upon Faith or some other Faith is a reliance upon some Authority and in our case the Authority of Christ who alone is acknowledged the Author and Revealer of all which we are to believe Wherefore of any point in question it must either be pretended that it was revealed by Christ or it cannot be pretended that it belongs to Faith and if any maintain it upon other grounds so far he acts not as a believer but as otherwise qualified Now there are in the world two principal ways by which claim is made to the Authority of Christ for that which we maintain is Faith and that wherein we do not engage his Authority neither of us say is Faith or that they act as faithful who upon reason or experiment for example maintain any thing The World hopes from the learned industry of the Royal Society the sight of many truths yet hidden from her but all their endeavours can never make Faith of them nor concern your Church in them as considerable members of it as some of them are For they go not your Church-way of Faith They look not into Scripture but Experiments and act as Learned not as Church-men What they shall discover to the World will be revealed not by Christ but by them and if any believe them they will have no Christian but society-Society-Faith Such is the case of our Church Tradition in her known method by which she pretends to the Authority of Christ If any will run upon their own heads and discourse and maintain things and never look into her Rule She can be no more concerned in their proceedings than the Church of England in those of Gresham Colledge For since Faith is that by which she is a Church and Tradition that by which she comes to Faith people must engage Faith if they will engage the Church and Tradition if they will engage her Faith Wherefore whoever goes about to prove any thing otherwise than by Tradition uses not the method to come to Faith I mean the method approved by our Church and this conclusion whether true or false neither reaches Faith nor aims at it and by consequence cannot belong to the Church or Congregation of the Faithful Now reflect a little upon your Authors and see if they go this way to work and the first thing is the consent of the present Age for Tradition signifying the consent of all Ages 't is a madness to pretend it for that which is not believed so much as by the present Do they or can they even offer at this while they see themselves contradicted by men as learned and farr more numerous While all the Universities of a great Kingdom disapprove and condemn their Doctrine and their Books are burnt in the face of the World by public Justice and the men who do this acknowledged good Catholics all the while Do they or can they pretend the consent of former Ages while they know all Antiquity agrees that for many Ages Popes were so Supreme in Spirituals that in Temporals they were Subjects Such they acknowledged themselves and as such the Emperours treated them When and how and upon what occasion they came to be temporal Princes is known to all who are knowing in History A condition by the way which he who envies them little understands or little loves the good of the Church with which 't was much worse when Popes were hindred from doing their duty by the unjust violence and oppression of powerful men amongst whom they lived Do they alledg the undoubted Testimonies of the Fathers of the Church assembled in a general Council Nothing of this appears in what you have produced The men themselves are most of yesterday All many Ages since Christ and there needs no second Argument to prove any thing that it is not Faith if it can be proved that it began in any Age since the first as these opinions plainly did But consider their Arguments They are either grounded upon some odd interpretation of Scripture as the order of Melchesedech the two Swords St Peters walking on the water and the like or else upon some deduction and reasoning as weak as the water which they mention And this methodt though per impossibile it could prove the thing true yet could never prove it to be Faith There are many things in the world which are so acknowledged to be true that they are withall acknowledged not to be Faith Was it taught by Christ Was it believed by Christians Semper ubique ab omnibus Till this appear it neither is nor can be Catholic Faith But that which I insist upon is that this method is plainly resolved into Reason and can no more engage the Church of Rome than the experimental learning of the Royal Society the Church of England The Authors you produce rely not upon the Authority of Christ testified by an uninterrupted conveyance down to us but upon the strength of their own discourses which if they be weak and fail the Church never undertook that all in her Communion should discourse strongly Neither can she herself do more then testifie of the truths delivered to her and they are such and were so delivered This testimony is all which can be expected from her as a Church speaking of what concerns us to speak of her power to make Ecclesiastical Laws and the like are no part of our case if she fail in this and either testifie that to be delivered which was not so or suppress any thing which was delivered blame her but for this that some Members in her Communion have weak Reasons or strong Passions if you blame her consider the confusion you will bring into the World which I have so much dilated before that to repeat it would be tedious here But will you have a taste of the Churches sense of these things Consider the Hymn made in the first Ages of the Church inserted since by public Authority into her solemn Office received by all the Faithful and used on the Feast of the Epiphany Non eripit mortalia qui Regna dat coelestia Can the Church which prays thus be thought to favour the deposing power Or can her sense appear more plainly than in the consent of an universal practice But let us look upon her in a Council Wickleff amongst other errors had advanced this Proposition Populares c The people may at their pleasure correct their offending Lords Con. Const Sess 8. And this amongst the rest was condemned by the Council of Constance To the same Council was offered another Article worded in this manner Quilibet Tyrannus c. Every Tyrant may and ought lawfully and meritoriously be killed by any of his Vassals or Subjects even by secret plots and subtle insinuations or flatteries notwithstanding any Oath or League made with
I believe those who are of a contrary judgment will be convinc'd by what I have said neither did I go about to convince them My business was to satisfie you not to dogmatize And I hope you will perceive your Argument so answer'd that if those unquiet Spirits of fear and diffidence continue still to hant you the blame is not to be imputed to me Of two propositions which you assum'd to fix a power Paramount in the Pope upon our Faith I have shew'd a Catholick may safely deny either of both 'T is at his choice to take either way and any one does his business If he will deny a temporal Regality in Christ the difficulty is cut up by the root since a Vicar can not with any shadow of pretence challenge more then was in the Principal himself If not willing to meddle with that question he will take the other way and affirm that whatever power Chrit had he left only Spiritual to Peter and his Successors the difficulty is as fully cleared A Catholick take my word may unreprovably hold either or both and that you may have better security against your fears then my word can give you I have shewed you both maintain'd by those whom Catholicks are not permitted to reprove If all this be not enough to quiet your suspicious let me add that if you consider well you will find that of all men the Principles of Catholciks can least endure the contrary Doctrine Ask of your Fore-fathers walk in the antient Paths avoid novelties and the like are Maximes so known and universally receieved amongst them that who is known to contradict them is known so far to swerve from the acknowledged grounds of Catholick Religion Now when the authority of unquestionable antiquity is of the one side and on the other that of Authors both late and few and of no extraordinary credit a Catholick who knows what he does can so little doubt which part to take that I think he is not excusable if he so much as doubt or at least not otherwise then as zeal is excused by blindness None have that veneration for antiquity and Fathers which Catholicks pretend for they look upon them as the men who have begot them in the Gospel from whence they give them the name of Fathers as the most considerable Pillars of the Church as the principal Persons on whose attestation the Rule of Faith and Stability of Religion depends After the sacred Books of Scripture written by Divine Inspiration to which no writing of Man can be equall'd nor so much as compar'd we Reverence in the next place the Writings of the Fathers which we think useful too and the most useful of any to the understanding of the Scripture of which we hold them the best Interpreters We universally blame those of other Communions for preferring the obscurity of private interpretations before the clear light of Tradition And all these things are known and acknowledg'd by every body Wherefore since the great Lights of the Church St. Agustin and St. Hierom and St. Cyril and St John Chrysostom and St. Bernard and the rest shine clearly out and with a joint consent unanimously conspire into the same Doctrine none are so blamable as Catholicks if they oppose it And such men as Comitolus and Sermarinus and the like put into the contrary ballance weigh so little that t is shameful even that they should enter in The truth is the world goes otherwise then sharp-sighted men would think it should or could else t is not easie to conceive how it should be possible there should be found amongst those of our principles who should stand in opposition to the Fathers All that can be said is that worldly policy sometimes makes a little too bold with Christian simplicity and that preposterous zeal is very blind and therefore a very dangerous Guide And I shall take the liberty to tell you that understanding Catholicks who consider the way they take see if it were followed in other things it would mine Catholick Religion and that the men indeed perhaps by the priviledge of well meaning ignorance are Catholicks but the way is not a Catholick way Thanks be to God there are not many who walk in it and those who do I believe consider not what they do For sure I am that knowingly to sleight the Reverence due to Sacred Antiquity and set up new Masters in opposition to the Fathers of Christianity and Doctors of the Church agrees very ill with a Catholiek Spirit In fine as men will be men and God must make the World another thing then it is if we expect that all should do as they ought you will find among Catholicks some who hold the contrary Opinion but none who hold this reprovable And this I say the more confidently because I mistake very much if it be reprovable even amongst the Jesuits themselves who yet are thought the greatest Favourers of the Papal power At least I know they cannot reprove it without reproving their own best and most famous Authors Read Bellarmin de Rom. Pontif. the fourth Chapter of the fifth Book and Maldonat upon 27 Mat. and see if they do not both expresly hold and strongly prove the Doctrine of the Fathers and so far that the latter says people would make Christ a temporal King whether he will or no c. against his express declaration and that before a Court of Justice They are too long to be transcribed But if you take the pains to read them since that is safe enough from being reproved which there is no body to reprove I hope your suspicions will be at quiet However I think it but seasonable that I should and be permitted after so long a journey to rest Yours c. FINIS ERRATA PAge 3. line 13. read particular l. 36. r. were p. 7. l. 5. r. you cite p. 8. l. 1. for he r. his l. 5. r. enterfere l. 32. may r. my p. 10. l. 37. r. no extraordinary p. 17. l. 29. r. the Servants ear p. 18. l. 26. r. because he defiled l. 33. r. yet he gave l. 35. r. Rabanus p. 21. l. 6. r. dogmatically l. 9. r. any principle l. 11. r. his side p. 22. l. 8. r. suppose l. 28. r. branches p. 23. l. 22. r. Kings p. 24. l. 16. r. penetrat p. 27. l. 22. dele to l. 28. r. were disposed p. 30. l. 18. r. his answer signify'd l. ult r. resolvedness p. 31. l. 28. r. Creation By. The Fifth and Sixth OF THE Controversial LETTERS OR THE Grand Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth And the True Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of England The other of the Church of Rome LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin Tooke at the Gun and at the Ship in St. Pauls Church-yard 1673. FRIEND I Must confess I am something better at ease at least I
as against any other I could alledge that of those Popes who have gone farthest none has defined any thing concerning these matters in those circumstances which even those Divines who attribute most to them require as necessary to make it believed or ex Cathedra as they call it But I conceive it needless it seeming to me sufficiently evident by what has been alledged already that our Faith and Church are not to suffer by these exorbitancies and commonwealths can secure themselves by their own power But Friend the case is otherwise with you Your men alledge Scripture for these errors and engage your Rule of Faith and how the honest Protestant who in this case undoubtedly has the true sense of Scripture on his side can handsomely disengage his Church from a scandal to which is pretended the authority of her Rule is difficult to apprehend If people come not to their journies end who refuse to take the right road it is no wonder to any nor blame to the Guide whose office it is to shew men the right way but cannot make them follow it But your men pretend they keep the way your Church shews them to Truth and yet arrive at Error And when Error and Truth pretend both to the same Rule and that the Rule of your Church I should think your Church deeply concerned to consider by what means it may be decided which is Heresie and which Faith In short our erring men since they pretend not our Churches Rule can never fix their errors upon the Church nor advance them to Faith nor beyond the degree of opinions Yours since they pretend to the very Rule owned by you must needs till a certain way of proceeding upon that Rule or interpreting Scripture be setled render it doubtful to those who truly desire to be guided by your Rule which of the two is the doctrine of Christ and are therefore wonderfully more dangerous to the Church than ours Farther abstracting from Passion or Interest which may be equal in both ours because they have no firmer ground than their own deductions are more reclaimeable and may at any time relinquish their errors without offering violence to their Faith and Religion Yours because they pretend to your Rule of Faith are apt to mistake their misguided Fancies for Religion as we have seen in the late confusions the title of Saints appropriated to wicked men and so become fixt and unalterable in them for which reason they are also much more dangerous to the State as they were before to the Church In this inequality of cases I do not know the Church of England has proceeded so far as ours in the Council of Constance or condemned these Errors by any Authentic Censure though in my opinion it were proper for her to consider how much her Rule upon which depends her own stability is concerned in them Mean time instead of reproaching our several Churches with the errors of their several Members It were I think more to purpose I am sure more charitable to endeavour that all Errors might be taken away on both sides that by one Faith and one Baptism we may all serve our one Lord and God and reunite into one Holy and Immaculate and Glorious Church free from those spots and wrinkles which our unhappy Divisions have too too much and too long brought upon her This is what the desire to obey your commands has suggested to me in answer to your Letter You will pardon the length of it which as it is beyond my expectation so 't is beyond my power to remedy and give me leave to hope it may prevail with you not to abate either your Charity to my Religion or kindness to Your very humble Servant THE THIRD and FOURTH OF THE CONTROVERSIAL LETTERS OR THE GRAND Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth and the true Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of ENGLAND The other of the Church of ROME LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin Tooke at the Gun and Ship in St. Pauls Church-Yard MDCLXXIII FRIEND FOR all the thanks I owe you and all the Complements 't were fit I made you take this acknowledgment that you have answered beyond my expectation and this assurance that I will consider very seriously what you say and make such use of it that you shall have cause to think your labour not unprofitably spent But yet I cannot but complain of the secresie which you enjoyn me I for my part am so well satisfied of your way of writing that I cannot but think others will be so too and that this shiness of yours is injurious both to your self and the World and because unjust commands are not to be obey'd let me tell you frankly I mean not to confine your Papers to my closet They shall be seen if it please God by more Eyes then mine but yet not to fall absolutely out with you I will divide stakes and so communicate what you write that there shall be no suspition of the Writer This I promise you very faithfully and to do it with more exactness lest your name should be discovered I engage my self to conceal my own Then if John a nokes get all the praise from you the fault be upon your own Head For the rest to deal plainly with you I find my self I know not how Things will not settle with me and though out of the mouth of a good Protestant I believe what you say would have past good reason yet when I reflect you are a Papist that is if you will pardon my Freedom of a crafty insinuating Generation I have still a kind of grumbling This Papist marrs all and though I think my self as free from prejudice as other men I find t' wil not do I can not but fear being trapan'd You have I must confess said many things very well and more then I thought you had been allow'd to say but you are reserv'd still 'T is true you give Reasons for your reservedness which I can not answer but whether it be that my plain nature would have every thing as plain as my self or that curiosity be like Love where too much reason is thought blameable I could wish in this occasion you had us'd less Reason and more Freedom Speak out the whole truth man and be a good Protestant otherwise own the whole Falshood and be a Papist of the first magnitude I fear your half Catholicks are in as bad a Case as Montaltos half Sinners who shall be damn'd for not sinning enough For my part if I would be a Papist I would be a Papist to purpose Hang this motly Religion this half Rome half Geneva Faith which gets a man neither credit nor security I would be as good a Catholick as Bellarmin for his heart if I would be one and if I thought your Catholick Faith would save me I would take order mine
him not expecting the Sentence or command of any Judge whatsoever This they condemned too and hear if you please in what terms The Holy Synod desirous to rise up against this Error Sess 15. and to take it wholly away declares and defines this Doctrine to be erronious in Faith and Manners and rejects and condemns it as Heretical Scandalous and giving way to Frauds Deceits and Lies Treasons and Perjuries Moreover it declares and decrees that those who pertinaciously assert this most pernicious Doctrine are Heretics and as such to be punished according to the Canonical Decrees Behold the most exorbitant of your Doctrines directly and authentically condemned And though I am not ignorant that some of them may find in the expressions as they lie in the Council wherewith to evade her Censure yet I conceive her sence so clear that those evasions can appear no better than evasions For 't is a plain case She takes Duty to Princes to be a direct point of Faith since she condemns the contrary of Heresie and since she allows not even Tyrants to be kill'd I conceive she declares plainly enough against the deposing power whose chief ground is that deposed Princes are no longer Princes but Tyrants for without doubt of all sorts of Tyrants those are the least such and have most title to the protection of the Council I beseech you mistake me not as if I thought my self such Princes indeed were Tyrants but I speak in the Language of those who think so and I maintain they are Condemned by the Council even though their impossible ground were supposed true And if her expressions are not so direct and formal as to avoid all cavill The reason is obvious Councils do not make Propositions to be condemned but condemn such condemnable ones as they find made to their hands She condemned that Doctrine in the terms in which is was proposed to her and by her carriage shews what it is to expect from the Church in whatever terms it be proposed People may talk at random in the Schools where 't is proposterously thought a piece of learning to be able in the morning to defend one thing and in the afternoon the quite contrary but let these men and their learning appear in a Council and they will go near to be askt since they know that to give obedience Prepositis etiam discolis and that not only for fear but for Conscience was taught by the first Masters of Christianity and evidently believed and practised ever since and ab omnibus and ubique and semper by what warrant they bring in an exception to a Rule established by Christ and tell us 't is to be understood if the Pope command not the contrary They will be urged to produce their authority for this exception of theirs to name the Father that taught it and Children that believed it to make out its Universality both in Time and Place and if they can do none of all this as plainly they cannot 't is well if they scape the censure of Heresie themselves who are so forward to fix it upon others Subtilties and the knack of talking and the opinion of learning will avail them little where the constant Rule is Tradition and not delivered and not to be believed is all one But I go too far it being neither my business nor intention to dispute the Question Thus much when I was once in I could not chuse but say and I cannot but add that if the contrary to your doctrine be not sufficiently defined already it may be when Princes please and in such terms as they please when ever they think fit to use their interest for the calling of another General Council In the mean time I conceive there is never a King in Christendom who has not credit enough with the Clergy of his own Dominions to cause them to condemn those opinions All the Universities of France have done it already and I presume no Catholic Church-men if they were required by their Prince would refuse to follow their example Mean time what belongs to me is that those opinions are not Doctrines of the Church since they do not so much as pretend to the only Rule by which she judges of Doctrines and their only grounds are private deductions of private men with which if the Church should be charged and Faith made responsible for the miscarriges of Reason it would be an injustice whose consequence would quite invert the order of the World and leave neither Church nor Prince nor Magistrate nor Policy nor Oeconomy on Earth But if this be so how come so many men esteemed learned to assert such extravagances the Pope to allow them private men to endure them I answer how can it be otherwise while men are men and the World the World Popes are men and have long time both been and lived in the State and splendor of Princes Can it be thought strange if Flatterie have found access to a Court and amongst so many if some have given ear to it They are generally very good men but of late better versed in Polities that Divinity For the most part they are well skilled in the Law especially the Canon an useful knowledge for Church Government but for Divinity they use or relie on others And if men who pass for able Scholars and great Divines flatter them with an addition and power and tell them it truly belongs to them and that they can and will maintain it Can you who think Miracles are ceased wonder they should be content it be thought true They see many who oppose it are their profest enemies and if it be perpetually incultated to them that the rest have got a tang of that enmity by conversing with them how can it be but they will be perswaded of it at last Wee see the often repetition even of known lies cheats the teller at last into a belief of them And if once they come to be perswaded the thing is true it were wonder they should not discountenance those who oppose it and cherish those who maintain it Then if one Pope declare any way the rest will all go on the same road unless some very extraordinary action stop their journey They understand the Art of Governning very well and see that if one Pope should undoe what his Predecessor has done things would soon fall into disorder So that they are slow but very tenacious in their resolves and 't is the hardest thing in the world to get them to alter their course And all this is so far from strange that it were strange it should be otherwise Then for learned men consider how much Ecclesiastical Promotions depend upon the Pope and what plenty of means he has to gratifie all who appear for his interest While one hopes for a Canonry another a Bishopric another has the dazling purple glittering in his eyes They will all be apt to say what they think will please him in whose power it is
a condemnation without more ado Neither did they well know at first on what bottom to fix This Indirect came in afterwards As far as can be guest they thought because the Pope was Superiour over all Christians he might therefore come and all Christians any thine Since the business coming to be debated they cast about for waies to maintain it and the Indirect way pleases most though it be not yet well setled some thinking it as much too little for the Pope as others too much But whatever they think I fear both the one and the other is ruinous to the Church For neither can pretend to be believed but for some reason and this reason since it cannot be the same for which we believe other points of Faith there being manifestly no such thing as uninterrupted delivery in the case must be something else which as well as It must pretend a vertue of inducing belief And that being a Rule of Faith which has power to settle Faith here is a new Rule of Faith brought into the Church and with it all the Incertainâ—y and all the confusion blamed in the most extravagant Sect and this even by her own confession who thinks her Rule is the only means to avoid that incâ—rtainly and that confusion This Rule is manifestly discarded by a new one For she cannot with any face pretend all she teaches was delivered to her if it be pin'd upon her that she teaches what was not dâ—livered and if She lose the pretence to all she will keep it to none since it cannot appear but if she have once deserted her Rule she has don 't oftner And then farewel Church Once take away the Rule and the Church must of necessity go after She has no solid ground of Authority but the stediness of her Faith no stediness of Faith but the stediness of her Rule break that once and there is neither Authority nor Faith nor will within a while be Church left So that in good earnest I do not think the malice of all her profest enemies could â—ver do the Church so much harm as the zeal of her unwary Friends At least for my part break but the Chain once and I know no more any certain way to Heaven than the veryest Enthusiast among all those Sectaries who rove blindly for want of a sure Guide and should find my self as much at a loss That any thing must be believ'd but what was taught by Christ or that any thing can be known to be taught by him but by the constant belief and practise of intermediate ages is what a Catholic should neither say nor endure to hear for it manifestly takes away Divine from Faith and all the advantage we profess in our method above others to come to Faith leaving us as much benighted and as much to seek and as small hopes of success as we object to those whom we think stray most and are most in the dark Wherefore salvo meliori as far as my short prospect reaches To bring Deposing Faith into the Church is a ready way to depose the Church I cannot tell whether I should more wonder or grieve but I am sure I do both to see men so intent upon the maintenance of an Opinion which they have espoused that they forget the honour and safety of the Church and to observe a certain supercilious gravity with which they labour to discourse these things into Faith and Religion should so far impose upon the world that they do not discover thâ—y are quite contrary and destructive to both But no doubt there are enough who see all that is to be seen but if they be no more forward then I to say all they think they are in my conceit the wiser By the favour of your earnestness it is no commendable disposition in private men to turn Reformers on every occasion and when they see any thing amiss step presently in and make a bustle in what concerns them not Let those who Govern the world and shall severely answer for those miscarriages of which They are the cause look to their duty Ours is to live quietly and unoffensively and trust God 's Providence Your importunity has carryed me farther than I intended But you have now your will of me and know I for my part think the not-deposing doctrine is the truly Catholic doctrinâ— Did I think otherwise all your importunities and all considerations in the world besides should not perswade me to it I hope you now find I said true when I told you my thoughts of this matter were such as bâ—came a good Christian and a good Subject and afford you no occasion to change yours if you had any good of Your c. FINIS The Thirteenth and Fourteenth OF THE Controversial LETTERS OR Grand Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth And the True Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of England The other of the Church of Rome LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin tooke at the Gun and at the Ship in St. Pauls Church-yard 1675. FRIEND YOU had sav'd your self and me some trouble if your last had been your first I almost despair'd of doing any good upon you and perceive that exsculpere verum out of one of your humour is one of the hardest tasks in the world But since 't is come at last I regret not my own pains and for yours it was in your power to have spar'd them But yet I have not done with you The Pope is a crafty Gentleman and has more strings to his Bow then one Shut the door never so fast it is hard to keep him out If St. Peters Keys will not open the lock He has St. Pauls sword to cut it off Not that I apprehend any great danger from downright fighting 'T is a Trick he shews as seldom as he can And he has reason for Kings overmatch him at that weapon But Justice has a sword too and that so sharp that I should be very sorry to see it in his hands Now that there may be justice without deriving it from Pasce Oves or Dabo Claves and that it may belong to him as well as others and by the same means And that he actually has heretofore and may when he please again set on foot pretensions upon this Title to part perhaps all his Majesties Dominions is something too evident to be deny'd and of too great importance to be neglected It is a thing which has long disquieted me with uneasy thoughts but I must freely avow to you I was never so sensible of the danger as since I read the Considerations of present Concernment You are so much concerned in that Book that I must needs suppose you have seen it and observ'd how much may be replyed to what you have said to me But I am for the present so intent upon what 's before that I cannot reflect