is the substance of condemnation but also for that the rest of hell paines are not inflicted till both these take hold on the soules of men For so long as men haue any part or hope of heauen they are not condemned to hell neither shall the finall iudgement of God proceede against any till their owne consciences doe first conuict them and condemne them And therefore as in Christs sentence reiection and malediction stand before the rest so in perfourmance they must take place before eternall torment of fire shall follow Gods iudgement being certainely iust shall be without all contradiction euen in the consciences of the condemned who then shal be their owne accusers and as hell hath no communion with heauen no more can a man bee adiudged to hell but he must first be excluded from the possession and expectation of all heauenly ioy and blisse I speake of the order and coherence of the punishments not of any long distance of time betweene them forsomuch as that iudgement shal be as quickly executed as pronounced The torment of fire is the third part of this iudgemenâ—… which I make no question but you will acknowledge to be an essentiall paine of hell whatsoeuer you intend by the name of fire For if this also be accidentall to damnation I maruaile much what is substantiall But you are content to admit this for the substance of hell paines so you may allegorize it and make thereof what best fitteth your fansie Then if Christ suffered not the torment of hell fire so much threatned to the wicked in the Scriptures and inflicted on the damned by Christs sentence it is very plaine he suffered no part of the substance of hell paines vnlesse your learning serue you to say that when Christ commeth to giue Iudgement against all the damned he shall vtterly forget and mistake himselfe and in stead of the substance of hell paines pronounce onely the circumstances thereof against the reprobate both men and Angels Here therfore is the place to examine whether the fire of hell be allegoricall or no for that it is essentiall to the paines of hell can be no doubt with any but with Atheists and Infidels which know not God since it is named by Christ as a chiefe punishment prepared for the diuell and his Angels Wherein I wish thee gentle Reader aduisedly to marke what is said on either side it is a matter of no small moment both to Christian religion and true godlinesse whether it shall be lawfull for euery vnstable wit at his pleasure to allegorize whatsoeuer liketh not his humour in the sacred Scriptures For if the small and eternall Iudgement of God against the wicked be allegoricall then surely the reward of the faithfull from the same Iudge at the same time must likewise be allegoricall And if we once bring all that is threatned and promised in the world to come to be figures and allegories we endanger the power and iustice of God which must openly appeare to all the world in the punishment of sinne if he be a God and displeased and offended with sinne as also his mercy bountie and glorie in crowning his elect to be nothing but types and figures The end of all things which is the time of iudgement must openly and fully performe whatsoeuer God in this life threatneth or promiseth and if that day doe not plainly distinguish betweene righteousnesse and vnrighteousnesse the elect and the reprobate and shewe a most sensible difference betwixt the kingdome of heauen and the torments of hell to the view of men and Angels without figures or allegories no time after is or euer shal be appointed for that purpose The first reason which leadeth me to beleeue the fire of hell to to be a true substantiall and externall fire and no allegorie is that which is and must be the ground of all Religion to wit the proper signification of the word threatned in the Scriptures to the wicked and by Christ inflicted on the damned Otherwise if we hold not fast this rule not to runne to figures in expounding the Scriptures except the proper signification of the words in any place be against the trueth of faith or honestie of manners we shall leaue nothing sound or assured in the word of God For when the mind is possessed with any errour whatsoeuer the Scriptures auouch to the contrarie men thinke it to be figuratiue as S. Austen rightly obserueth Your selfe approue this rule when it maketh any thing for you your words are I like well that no figure is to be admitted in Scripture where there is no ill or hurtfull sense following litterally Now that externall and substantiall fire is denounced to the wicked in the Scriptures and shall accordingly torment the damned in hell what iniurie is it to the Christian faith or what repugnance hath it with the rest of the Scriptures We doe and must beleeue that Christ shall come to iudge the quicke and dead and with his owne mouth shall openly adiudge the reprobate to euerlasting fire prepared for the deuill and his angels What necessitie then is there to allegorize this fire It is impossible you thinke for soules and deuils which are spirits to be punished with externall and corporall fire and therefore the fire in your conceit must be figuratiue Shall it be impossible to God when he speaketh the word to performe the deede or is it too hard for you to conceaue the manner how it shall be done I trust you take not vpon you to restraine the maruailes of Gods workes to the reach of your wits or to measure the greatnesse of his arme by the weaknesse of your hand How many thousand things are there in the creation conseruation and alteration of the world in the aire in the earth and euery part thereof which are daily before our eyes and yet farre passe our vnderstanding To tie Gods trueth and glorie to your capacitie were madde deuinitie to make any thing vnpossible for him which his mouth hath spoken were meere infidelitie He that created spirits of nothing can as easily make them capable of paine and punishment from fire or whatsoeuer meane pleaseth him to vse But fire hee hath threatned vnto men and deuils By fire therefore shall they be tormented which his hand that is Almightie and his mouth that is all true shall perfourme in the sight of all the world A second reason is that Christ shall pronounce these words in Iudgement where the guiltie must perceiue what is their doome the ministers must know what they shall execute and the elect must discerne what they are to approoue Now allegories are exactly knowen onely to the speaker the hearers except they can search the heart can not certainely knowe the meaning of figures and parables till they be expounded Christs iudgement therefore shall be plaine and proper and containe nothing in it that any way may hinder the present and euident conception execution or approbation
Prophets not as wanting soueraigntie and sufficiencie in himselfe aboue all Prophets but leading them that knew him not to consider better of those Scriptures which they knew It is as true of Pauls writings as of the rest of the Apostles and Prophets which S. Augustine affirmeth De quorum scriptis quòd omni errore careant dubitare nefarium est Of whose writings to doubt whether they be free from all error is plaine wickednesse Neuerthelesse I well perceiue that all this great shew of cleauing to the Fathers iudgements is but coloured in you For in other points againe we see when they speake not to yoúr liking the case is altered I see in this booke where you forsake the ancient and learned Fathers that is as you speake in my case you conâ—…mne despise them The more vniust then and iniurious was your slander that I went about by the vse of one word which olde and new Diuines vsed in like sort before me to make the Fathers of equall authoritie with the Scriptures since now you can both obserue and obiect that euen in this booke which you impugne I say and do the contrarie And though I be farre from repenting or misliking any thing that I sayd touching the prerogatiue of the sacred Scriptures and their irrefragable authoritie against all the words and wits of men yet can I not chuse but note your negligence that marke neither what nor of whom I speake Had I brought Fathers in matters of faith against or without the Scriptures you had some colour to choake me with mine owne words but taking care as I did that in cases of faith the Scriptures should be plaine and perspicuous for my purpose before I cited them and the testimonies of the Fathers euident and concurrent with the Scriptures how doe I crosse any of those places which you quote out of my writings touching the authoritie and sufficiencie of the Scriptures in points of faith or what agreement hath your dissenting from the Scriptures and Fathers in the chiefest keyes of Christian religion with my leauing them in some expositions and positions not pertinent to the faith nor generally receiued of them all It is vanitie enough to dreame of contradictions where none are and as great infirmitie not to see that which lieth before your eyes but to pronounce that you know how wauering and slipperie I am for the most part therein when you neither consider nor conceiue what I say that is more than childish temeritie As I sayd so I say againe In Gods causes Gods booke must teach vs what to beleeue and what to professe and therefore what I reade in the word of God that I beleeue what I reade not that I doe not beleeue Yea I adde thereto S. Basils conclusion If all that is not of faith be sinne as the Apostle sayth and faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God all that is without the Scripture inspired from God as not being of faith is sinne This confession I constantly holde and as in the first booke which you quote I directly and expresly defend that no point of faith should be beleeued without Scripture so in my Sermons I no where varie from it how slipperie soeuer your tongue be to tell a tale in stead of a trueth I doe reiect Austens opinion in three speciall points and diuers Fathers in two other cases and some of those things I affirme against all the Fathers and almost against all the Church and yet I bitterly reproue you for vsing the like libertie Doe I any where reiect S. Augustine or all the Fathers in any point of doctrine necessarie to our saluation as you do in the chiefest grounds of our redemption And when I let the Reader vnderstand that the reasons which some Fathers bring to fortifie their priuate opinions are not sufficient for to force consent to be giuen vnto them doe I call them fond absurd without reason or likelihood and paradoxes in nature as you do These two things I iustly reproue in you which I my selfe doe not fall into for all your fitning In the maine principles of Christian religion and our redemption you make the best learned Fathers ignorant of their Creed and Catechisme and when their expositions of the Scripture crosse your imaginations you Reuell against their Iudgements as void of sense and reason This doâ—… I not In the rule of faith I renounce not their maine consent nor vndoubted maximes least I conclude them or my selfe to erre in faith In other questions of lesâ—…e importance wherein they differ sometimes from ech other sometimes euen from themselues I let the Reader see their reasons and leaue him free to follow what he liketh or to suspend his iudgement if he find cause therefore This libertie I neuer take from you nor mislike it in you but when you pronounce all to be absurd fond and foolish that yeeld not to your fansie wherein you doe not onely proudly aduance your owne dreames as necessary Doctrines but reprochfully preiudice the freedome of others This difference is not my deuise the auncient consent of Godly Fathers saith Vincentius is with great care to be searched and followed of vs not in all the questions of the Diuine Law but onely or chiefly in the Rule of Faith Whether therefore the bodies of such as arose and came out of their graues after Christs resurrection returned againe to corruption or still kept the honor of immortalitie which was bestowed on them as also when Christ said to the theefe on the Crosse this day shalt thou be with me in Paradise whether Christ ment the presence of his humane soule or of his Diuine glory should be that day in Paradise and so whether the soules of the faithfull dâ—…parting this life goe straight to heauen or stay in a place appointed them of God till the day of iudgement and likewise whether Abrahams bosome were a receptacle for soules within the earth and neere to hell or far aboue the earth and lastly whether the loosing of Adam from hell by Christs descent thither which the whole Church almost seemed to hold by tradition freed onely the person of Adam from the place of hell or both him and his posteritie from all feare and danger of hell These be things that may be liked disliked or suspended without any manifest breach of faith and wherein Saint Austen probablely disputeth but determineth nothing for certaintie to be beleeued alwaies tempering his words in these cases with Ego quidem non video explicent qui possunt nondum intelligo nulla causa occurrit nondum muâ—… I see not how let them declare it that can as yet I vnderstand it not I conceaue presently no cause as yet I find it not cleere If I then laboured with respectiue words and other places of the same Fathers to shew wherein they doubted or dissented who but a light head and slipper tongue would call this
greater than all the gifts of men and angels How then doth it follow that Christ was weake because Paul was weake Yea if Pauls weaknesse were perfected by Christes power as Paul himselfe confesseth in that place g Ibid. vers 9. Very gladly will I reioyce in mine infirmities that the power of Christ may dwell in me then from those words Christes power is prooued and not his infirmitie But take it which way you will though this be the trueth which I haue tolde these wordes doe nothing hinder Hilaries and Austens confession that Christes infirmitie was voluntarie where ours is necessarie and so infirmitie in him was not for want of strength but for merit of righteousnesse and was both receiued and directed by his will and power And where you are so often on the hoigh to impaire S. Austens credit with yours you shall do well to get you some more vnderstanding in him before you rush so rashly against him left if it come to the ballance whether you or S. Austen be in an errour you finde few friends so fauourable that will forsake him to follow you His resolution which you may put off with pride but you shall neuer refute with reason is this h August de ciuitate Dei li. 14. ca. 9. Habemus ergo has affectiones ex humaâ—…a conditionis infirmitate non autem it a Dominus Iesus cuius infirmit as fuit ex potestate 〈◊〉 etiam ipse Dominus in forma serui agere vitam dignat us humanam sed nullum habens omninâ—… peccatum adhibuit eas vbi adhibendas esse iudicauit Cùm ergo cius in Euangelio ista referuntur quod Lazarum suscitaturus lachrymas fuderit quòd propin quante passione trâ—…stis fuerit anima eius vsque ad mortem non falsò vtique ista referuntur Verum ille hos motus certa dispensationis gratia ita cùm voluit suscepit animo humano vt cùm voluit factus est homo We haue these affections of feare and sorow c. by the infirmitie of mans condition but the Lord Iesus had them not so whose infirmitie was of his owne power Wherefore the Lord when he vouchsafed to leade an humane life in the forme of a seruant but vtterly void of all sinne admitted those affections when he saw it fit to admit them And in the Gaspell when those things are reported of him as that he wept when he was about to raise Lazarus and that his Passion approching his soule was sorrowfull vnto death these things are not falselie written of him but he admitted these motions in his humane minde for certaine purposes euen when he would as when he would he was made man l Defene pag. 107. li. 20. 18. I iudge their very meaning to be that here appeared not Christs infirmitie onely in suffering but his diuine power also in punishing and this they speake fully for vs and against you If you make them speake that they neuer ment they may chance to speake with you but leaue them to expresse their owne minds and then they neither speake nor meane with you But what is the reason they so soone speake with you where not fiue lines before you controled their speech as repugnant to the truth haue you now by your glozes made them lyers like your selfe you should at least be more constant if not more prudent then first to chalenge in their speech a contrarietie to the truth and then to claime a conformity to their sense They ment no such thing as you make shew of but they speake of Christs power which stirred and gouerned his affections as he thought good that they might declare him a true man and yet be parts of his obedience and submission to his Father though withall they were religious and voluntarie For as he emptied and humbled himselfe so he weakned and troubled himselfe when he saw time not for want of power but of purpose so disposing and despensing his affections that by his vertue he might moderate them in his owne person and cure them in ours k Defenc. pag. 107. li. 28. Those other mysticall and figuratiue sayings of Austen Bede and Bernard how shall we admit them without better warrant that Christs bloudshed was to signifie that Martyrs doe shed their bloud what reason haue we so to thinke or that his bloudshed should signifie the purging of his Disciples harts from sinne yea or of all his Church in the whole world It did not signifie this but it did it indeede If their opinions of Christs bloudy Christs bloudie sweate might hauâ—… signification as well as the water that â—…anne out of his side sweate be not to be admitted because they bring no warrant besides themselues for it how should we admit your loose dreames and dangerous fansies of a new found hell inflicted on the Soule of Christ in the Garden by the immediate hand of God which is not onely strange but repugnant to the Scriptures theirs is possible and agreeable to the rules of faith yours is not Why Christ sent out of his side after his body was dead first bloud and then water can any man giue the reason Saint Austen saith i August in Iohan tract 15. De latere pendentis in cruce lancea 〈◊〉 sacramenta ecclesiae profluxerunt Out of Christs side pearced with a speare as he hanged on the crosse the Sacraments of the Church issued forth What warrant had he so to say the Scripture doth not vouch so much and yet the Church of God hath euer since regarded and receaued that speech of his So for Christs bloudy sweate finding no reason deliuered in the Scripture he descended to the signification which might be thereof that Christ by sweating bloud in his whole naturall body foreshewed the martyrdomes of his mysticall body the Church You aske for a Reason The resemblance is euident and the performance consequent greater reasons then which cannot be giuen of significations You like it not No maruaile nothing pleaseth you besides the wringing out of this sweate by the diuine power punishing You haue neither proofe nor truth for your second death to be suffered at this time and in this place and yet you would haue your absurd conceits preferred before Saint Austens iudgement It was aboue the course of nature you grant and since it was not naturall it must be miraculous if not mysticall Now if it were a miracle there may no reason be required of it but it must be left to the power and will of the doer To what end Christ did it if you like neither Austens Prospers Bedes nor Bernards iudgements in this case know you any man so vnwise as to like yours You say it did not signifie the purging of the earth from sinne it did it indeede Did the bloudie sweate of Christ in the Garden purge indeed all his Church in the whole world from sinne what needed then his death and passion afterward on the Crosse what needed his
the death of the soule and so neglecting what you should prooue you vainly push against that which I doe not vphold And yet if we admit these cries and teares to be powred forth not for himselfe but for vs then might he most wofully bewaile our deserued destruction which was no lesse then euerlasting damnation of body and soule if he did not ransome and release vs from it To his fathers will Christ submitted himselfe in the garden but what he disliked in that cup which he named and how much thereof he tasted is knowen neither to you nor to me nor to any man liuing That it was very sharp we may iustly collect by his naturall dislike thereof but what degrees or sorts of paines were adherent to his passion is not for you or me to determine What he might suffer with piety patience and obedience to his father is aboue mans reach to define but the second death or the death of the soule if we follow the leading of the Scriptures and not fall to deuising a new hell and a new death of the soule to support our fansies are things that by no colour of Scripture can be confirmed howsoeuer you straine and stretch the word of God to find them there e Defenc. pag. 137. li. 28. And yet it was I grant the death of the soule or the second death that is simply the 〈◊〉 thereof Gods withdrawing himselfe from him in the paines and torments thereof Your grant is the ground of your doctrine besides that which you haue nothing els to beare the burden of your deuices But what a iest is this when you should iustly prooue and fully conclude your assertions to fall to granting of them whereas your graunt with me and with any man that is wise is not worth a grey goose quill Howbeit these are the best buttresses of your cause euen your owne violent conceits that force the Scriptures to your liking But Sir remember you are neither Prophet nor Apostle and so your granting of these nouelties may shew your owne gyddinesse it cannot preiudice the true and vndoubted rules of the Christian faith Hence it followeth inâ—…incibly that Christ indeed suffered sith thus he feared more then the meere bodily death euen the death of the soule For he could not I say thus feare but he must needes know that it was to come or might come vnto him If he but knew that it might come vnto him then it certainly did come vnto him at one time or another in his passion before he left the world Here is the prime and pride of your obseruations out of this place of the Apostle to the Hebrewes and except a man were out of his witts he would not reuell in this sort with such waterish and witlesse resumptions Palpable vntrueths you call inuincible certainties and trifles wherewith children will not be deceiued you obtrude to the whole Church of Christ as fortresses of their faith Christ feared ergo he suffered more then a bodily death ergo the death of the soule What he knew might come that certainly did come These be such bables that boyes in the street will deride them and yet you conceaue and propose them as Sapientiall and soueraigne collections But he that wilfully wandreth thinketh no way straighter then that he traceth and dreamers are often delighted with empty shadowes now if we take your owne translation the Apostle telleth vs that Christ was heard in that he feared ergo he did not suffer it and though it might come yet because he was freed from it certainly it came not and many things might come more then the death of the body and yet not the death of the soule If then you haue no stronger meanes to conclude the death of Christs soule then these the simplest Reader will soone perceiue that your reasons be as frigent as your humours be feruent and though there be fire in your mind yet there is water in your mouth for you truly conceaue or iustly conclude nothing f Defenc. pag. 138. li. 3. Sec. to the Hebrewes Christ abolished through death him that had the power of death that is the Diuell and so deliuered all them which for feare of death were all their life time subiect to bondage Heere I see no reason in the world but that the Apostle by the often repeating of death and by the naturall referring of it in one place as it were to the other doth vnderstand and signifie one and the same death altogether But it is the death of the soule which the Diuell hath power and execution of also the death of the soule sinnefull men were held in feare of all their life long It followeth then I suppose that euen through the death of the soule Christ abolished the Diuell and deliuered his children I know not whether your eies be open or your braines sound that you see nothing but what pleaseth your selfe And what if they be either so dimme or so dull that you see not the truth is that a reason that your ignorance or wilfulnesse must be the loadstone of our creed with such peeuish and priuate presumption would you preuaile against Scriptures Fathers and the whole church of Christ that what you doe not or will not see we must relinquish as false and erroneous to let you see if you be not blinded with preferring your fansies before the trueth of Christ that this is a lazie loose and lewd argument which heere you make take your owne maior or first proposition that Christ suffered the selfe same death which he abolished whereof the Diuell had power and execution and whereof we were in feare being not redeemed all our life long and set this for the second proposition or assumption but it is most euident that the Diuell had power and execution of eternall death and to the feare of euerlasting Destruction were we subiect all the time of our life before we were deliuered by Christ ergo Christ suffered eternall death and damnation in hell For he abolished that from the faithfull and thereof the Diuell had power and execution as also we were in feare and danger of that without the Redeemer What say you to this conclusion grounded on your owne collection and proposition see you the falsenesse and wickednesse thereof and yet if your assertion be true that Christ must redeeme vs with the same kind of death whereof we were in feare and bondage without him and abolish the Diuell with that verie death whereof he had power and execution the one is as strong as the other But who besides you would warble thus in so waighty matters True it is that the name of death compriseth all the kinds of death I meane of bodie of soule of both for euer and this chaine of death is inseparable and ineuitable where Christ doth not breake it By the malice of the diuell perswading sinne which is the losse of grace and death of the soule in this life came into the
that rest which Lauatere nameth is not the ioy of heauen but rest from the labours of this life which our bodies attaine in the graue specially when the Soule enioyeth her eternall and happie rest which the wicked want that are adiudged to the place of torments Tremellius saith This Hebrew word Sheôl doth signifie any station or state of the dead in generall in very many places of Scripture and hell it may sometime signifie but by a figure Synecdoche Tremellius hath been once afore alleadged and answered He doth not say that Sheol signifieth Heauen or Paradise but the Stations of the dead he maketh to be Sepulchrum or infernum the graue for dead bodies or Hell for the dead Soules to both which Sheol is a common name and sometimes importeth the one sometimes the other and sometimes both When both are intended the word hath his full force when onely one the figure Synecdoche is vsed as he thinketh But what is this to your purpose shew that euer Tremellius translateth Sheol by Heauen or Paradise and then you saâ—…â—…mewhat though I be not bound to Tremellius authoritie farder then he maketh faire and cleere proofe of his assertion Otherwise this is a plaine conâ—…ction of your falsehoode if you pretend by mistaking Tremellius words that Sheol signiâ—…eth as well Heauen as Hell and the graue and when you be asked for an example of that signification in the Scriptures you can produce no one place in the whole Bible where Tremellius himselfe hath so translated Sheol Of â—…nius I haue formerly spoken he was very learned but he tooke holde of Tertullians errour repugnant to all the Fathers as I haue shewed before He likewise mistooke Chrysostom for Chrysostom supposeth Abraham to be in hades before Christes resurrection but not after Irenaeus sayth the soules of Christes Disciples haue an inuisible place defined them of God but he expresseth neither name nor site thereof What proofe make any of these that heauen or paradise is called infernus or hades or that there is a state of the dead in one place common to good and bad as you defend out of Fulgentius The rather this sensâ—… of hades we are to acknowledge because it hath beene the ancient phrase and common vsâ—… of speech before Christianitie which sufficiently â—… shewed before out of Homer Plato and others The heathen writers fitted their phrases to their heathen errors and therefore except you be disposed to reuiue their prophane fansies of Infernus and Hades which they thought common to good and bad you haue no reason to follow their phrase either in Hades or Inferi What hath heauen or paradise to do with Plutoes kingdome vnder earth where the Pagan Poets and Philosophers placed both torments for the wicked and pleasant fields for the godly And therefore your idle and fruitlesse discourse of almost three whole leaues tending onely to smooth vp the vnchristian follies and phrases of Pagans I omit as not woorth the answering and as you referre them to the iudgement of the learned and wise Reader so do I not doubting but if he be learned or wise he will not suffer you to expound the Scriptures by fabulous Poets or erroneous Philosophers altogether strangers to the Christian religion but will keepe you rather to the rules and directions of the holy Ghost whose sense is the safest and surest way to measure matters of faith Only I will touch two or three of your foolish ouersights and bolde presumptions lest my silence should breed you confidence in your conceits The holy Apostles doe teach the heauenly trueth with the very words and Grammar of the heathen men whereunto that serueth which is written of them we euery man heare them speake in our owne tongues and languages wherein we were borne Why speake you of Grammar which is common to all professions and skip the signification and meaning of these words which are proper to Christians who though they vse many words abused by Pagans to ignorant and false apprehensions yet retaine they such sense of those words as the trueth of God prescribeth and not as Pagans and Idolaters imagined And to whom did the Apostles speake in this place which you cite to prophane and heathen men or to Iewes that were well acquainted with Moses and the Prophets though they were borne in diuers places of the world and vnderstood the languages of many other nations the Scripture saith euen of this multitude then assembled to heare the Apostles speake with diuers tongues There were dwelling at Ierusalem Iewes men Religious or fearing God of euerie nation vnder heauen Els to what end did Peter alleage to them the Prophets Ioel and Dauid if they knew the writings of neither but that whole Sermon of Peters prooueth that they were familiarly conuersant in the Scriptures and therefore the Apostles speaking strange languages so tempered their wordes and sense as men trained vp in Moses might wel vnderstand their meaning And when the Apostles spake or wrot in other tongues besides the Hebrew trow you they retained the same sense and vnderstanding in euery word that the Pagans did who knew nothing of Christ how many words are there which the writings of the Euangelists and Apostles turne from their generall and vsuall signification amongst the heathen to expresse things proper to Christian religion shall Euangelium fides spiritus ecclesia episcopus diaconus presbyter martyr diabolus and many such import no more with Christians then they did with Pagans who euer was so blind that euer read any thing Hades then the apostles might did vse for a place vnder earth where the wicked after this life were tormented so far they agreed with the vse of the word formerly receaued but where vnbeleeuers thought the soules of the godly were likewise in the same place vnder the earth tho gh in more rest or in some pleasures such as naturall men could deuice the Apostles and Euangelists instructed no doubt by their Master and by his example correcting that error named the place where the soules of the faithfull were receaued after death Paradise and an heauenly habitation And where the Iewes vsed Sheol foâ—… all that was vnder the earth were it the graue for dead bodies or hell for wicked soulâ—…s the new Testament distinguishing hades from death and making the one a consequent to the other in the wicked prooueth hades there to be taken onlie for the place of torment after this life I thought that those few allâ—…gations which I brought out of Plato Homer and Plutark for the Greeke of the Latins for the Latin would haue sufficed to cause you not to deny so cleare and manifest a trueth That hades with them did signifie the world of soules without any limitation in the very word it selfe either of state or place Had the Pagans any hades which they thought was in no place or were the soules of good and bad in no state doe not the
no doubt can be made saue of Austen onely because he sometimes repeateth the Creede without that clause which yet he confesseth to be a maine point of the Christian faith That in all places they did varie from this forme though you pretend the names of Ignatius Irenaeus Iustine Tertullian Origen c. yet they prooue no such thing These Fathers do often as learned discoursers enlarge the parts of the Creed somtimes as short comprisers of it they contract the summe thereof into fewer wordes but yet the most and most famous churches had from the beginning a briefe collection of the Christian faith deliuered to the simple people to be learned and said by heart before they could be baptized Of this doe many learned and auncient Fathers beare witnesse Duodecim Apostolorum Symbolo sides sancta concepta est In the Creed of the twelue Apostles saith Ambrose is the holy faith conceaued or comprised So Leo Catholici Symbolibreuis perfecta confessio dâ—…odecim Apostolorum totidem est signata sententijs The short and perfect confession of the Catholike Creed is sealâ—…d vp with twelue sentences of the twelue Apostles So Ierom. In the Creed of our faith and hope which being deliuered from the Apostles is not written in paper and â—…ke but in the tables of mens hearts after the confession of the Trinitie and vnitie of the Church all the mysteries of Christian Religion are closed vp with the resurrection of the â—…lesh Isidore saith the Apostles readie to depart one from another Normam prius sibi futurae praedicationis in commune constituunt appoint first in common a summe of that they would preach least sâ—…uered in diâ—…ers places they â—…ould propose any diuers or dissonant thing to those whom they brought to the â—…ith of Christ. Rabanus Maâ—…rus de Institutione clericorum li. 2. ca. 56. hath the very same wordes Neither could Tertullian whose name you vse haue truely said r Regâ—… fidei vn a omnino est sola immobilis irreformabilis there is but one rule of faith and only that immooueable and vnchangeable vnlesse there had beene some forme of faith receaued in the Church which no man might alter or change For how could he saie there is but ONE RVLE if euery Church had a seuerall rule Or how was it immooueable or irreformable if there were no certaine wordes or parts but euerie man might alter at his will Tertullian therefore doth not repeat the words of the Creed which he varieth in euerie place where he citeth it but he pointeth to the chiefe parts thereof no where keeping the same words but in substance the same matter Against Praxeas the heretike he saith Hanc regulam ab initio Euangelij decurrisse This rule of faith hath had continuance from the beginning of the Gospell Against heretikes in generall he saith Haec regula à Christo probabitur instituta This rule shall be prooued to haue beeâ—…e appointed by Christ. And yet in these two places he keepeth not the same wordes but the same heades and as it were the same principles of faith As likewise both these differ in wordes from that rule which he cited before being omnino vna euerie where one and by no meanes alterable Irenaeus saith The Church throughout the whole world euen to the endes of the earth receaâ—…ed from the Apostles and their Disciples that faith which be beleâ—…eth in one God the Father almightie maker of heauen earth c and in Iesus Christ the Sonne of God incarnate for our saluation and in the holie spirit which preached by the Prophets the dispensation and comming of God and the birth of Christ our Lord by the Virgine his pâ—…ssion resurrection and ascension with his flesh into heauen and his comming from heauen in the glory of his Father to recapitulate all to raise vp all flesh and to giue iust iudgement in all Thâ—… faith the Church dispâ—…rsed through the world hauing receaued faithfully keepeth and constantly teacheth and deliuereth these things as it were with one mouth For though there be different languages in the worlde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Yet the summe aud effect of the tradition or faith deliuered is one and the same Neither doe the Churches in Germany otherwise beleeue or otherwise teach nor those in Spaine nor those in Fraunce nor those in the East nor those in Egypt nor those in Africke nor those in the middest of the world So that all the churches in the world had one and the same tradition and rule of faith and though the wordes in some places did differ yet in sense they agreed and the chiefer the churches were the more was their care to preserue this Creed not written as Ierom and others confesse but deliuered and receaued by hart euen from the Apostles and their Disciples And since the Church of Rome then one of the most famous Churches in the world kept this Creede comprised in twelue sentences according to the number of the twelue Apostles as Leo testifieth not long after Ruâ—…ines time and Ambrose said the same in effect euen in Ruâ—…ines time and other Churches likewise both East and West had retained the same from their first foundation as Irenaeus witnesseth It can not be but the Creede which we haue at this day was the verie same which the primitiue churches had and kept and these auncient Fathers that alleage the authoritie thereof bring not euerie where the exact wordes but the chiefe parts and grounds thereof as appeareth by Tertullian who saith The Rule or Creed is one and vnchangeable notwithstanding he bringeth three seueral variations therof in wordes For the clause of Christs descent to hell I haue said before it was retained in many places though it wanted in the church of Rome and some other churches of the East and no doubt the Church of Rome and the rest conceaued no lesâ—…e by Christes resurrection from the dead but that he rose conquerer of death and hell as the prophet foretold he should in saying O death I will be thy death ô hell I will bee thy destruction as Christ professed he did when he said I haue the keies of death and hell and as the great and generall Councels of Ephesus Chalcedon and Constantinople did expound that Article of the Creed Christ rose the third day 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hauing â—…irst spoiled hell And vpon this resolution of these generall Councels and not as you dreame vpon the opinion of Limbus preuailing the Churches that wanted that Article which others had receaued it into their Creed as contained there before in force and effect but now they concurred in one consent of faith and wordes which before they did not Our third reason is if there be no certaine benefit to the godly by Christs going to hell then doubtlesse he went not thither But there is no certaine benefit to the godly by Christs going to hell Therefore
by the death of his Sonne who bare our sinnes in his body on the tree that we might be deliuered from sinne and healed with his stripes And without satisfaction to God for sinne we haue neither remission of sinne nor redemption from sinne nor reconciliation with God Vpon this ground I then did still do reiect your maior as guarded neither with text nor truth but leaning only to your priuat liking as the best helpe to commend it From thence I came to your assumption or second proposition that Adam first and we euer since most properly committed sin in our soules our bodies being but the instruments of our soules following the Soules direction and will The which because it had diuerse branches one touching Adams transgression an other touching ours and likewise two parts the soule body in either I reserued for diuers answers In Adams sinne if you meant as your words made shew that his Soule and bodie were ioyned in transgressing Gods Commandement the Soule as the agent the body as the instrument That I said was MOST TRVE but repugnant to your intention and maine Conclusion For then as Adams Soule transgressed the Commandement with and by her bodie so in fatisfying for sinne Christs Soule must be punished by and with her bodie which was the thing you so much laboured to ouerthrow To this you now replie Nay the Conclusion will follow that the immortall part the minde was punished peculiarly and not by and from the body onely seeing in all euen outward sinnes the Soule sinneth both principally and also in a proper and peculiar manner by it selfe yea before the body sinneth Albeit the body sinneth also secondarily and in a manner proper to it selfe euen as the instrument as you say The principall and peculiar action of the Soule in sinnes that be common to the Body and Soule maketh no proofe that the Soule must haue a distinct and seuerall punishment from the body or that it may not be punished from and by the body The true and full punishment of all sinne in all the wicked is the casting of Body and Soule into hell fire where one and the same punishment is common to both euen as their sinnes were notwithstanding the proper and peculiar manner which the Soule hath in sinne by it selfe aboue the body The punishments of this life are likewise common to both For the Soule feeleth whatsoeuer greeueth the Body neither can any thing offend the Soule which doth not likewise disquiet the Body How beit the effects and impressions of one and the same punishment are different in Soule and Body not onely because the Soule is the chiefe patient and sentient in all paine as it was the chiefe agent and disponent in all sinne but also for that the Soule seeth and greeueth farder vpon feeling the paine then the body can doe For the Sense of the Body can onely iudge how tolerable or intolerable the paine is but the Soule reacheth vnto the cause continuance and consequence thereof which often times afflict the Soule as much or more then the paine it selfe This difference dependeth on the nature of the Soule which because it is endued with reason remembrance and intelligence perceiueth not onely things present and subiect to sense as the Body doth but things past and future together with their dependences and things spirituall as well as corporall and the losse of ioy and blisse no lesse then the anguish of perpetuall paine and miserie So that in all punishments of sinne which be common to the Soule and Body the Soule is farre deeper engaged in the griefe thereof then the Body can be But this is no reason to proue that Christs Soule must die the death of Soules or feele the paines of hell because his Soule considered better of his paines then his body could doe Two Rules of Gods Iustice in punishing the sinnes of men the Scriptures report Which though they be kept in all others yet may no man affirme them of Christ farder then the Gospell giueth euident Testimonie to them The one is the meanes the other is the measure of punishment As Wherewith a man sinneth by the same also shall he be punished and How much she exalted her selfe and liued in pleasure so much torment and sorrow giue yee to her Neither of these ruies could rightly fasten on Christ because he neuer sinned and therefore touching the meanes by which he satisfied for our sinnes the Scriptures and not your imaginations must be consulted Now they testifie that he dyed for our sinnes according to the Scriptures and that we were Redeemed by his pretious bloud which was shed for Remission of sinnes Here is the satisfaction for the sins of men which the Scripture deliuereth without any other death of the soule or of the damned which men must suffer if they be not freed from it by the death and blood of Christ but Christ neither did nor could suffer For the measure of paine which Christ suffered in the death of his body described in the Scriptures we must leaue it to God who only knew what proportion of paine in the person of his Sonne was sufficient for the sinnes of the world not therein trust the deceitfull ballance of your presumption who neither know what degree of pain Christ suffred on the crosse nor how much in the person of Christ would satisfie the iustice of God for our sinnes Only this we are assured that he learned obedience by that which he suffered his patience was thereby proued but neither of them ouerwhelmed or endangered And therefore that Christs paine on the Crosse was equall to hell paines or the very same which the damned do suffer these be your rash and violent intrusions vpon Gods iustice allotting to Christ out of your owne braine the same punishment as you call it in substance that the wrath of God inflicteth on the wicked and damned for their sinnes but in all these collections you rest on the rules of your owne reason without any warrant of the word of God which neuer sorteth our Sauior in his sufferings with the reprobate damned and contrary to the Christian faith which groundeth the waight of our redemption and strength of our Reconciliation to God vpon the infinitie of the person that died for vs and not of the paine that was suffered in our steeds Yea farder I meane that some sinnes the Soule acteth in and by it selfe meerely and therefore it suffereth likewise some punishments meerely in it selfe which touch not the body at all vnlesse it be by Sympathie onely and that onely when they grow vehement What you now meane vpon better aduise maketh nothing to the Conclusion which you would haue forced out of your former words Your assumption was that Adam first did and we euer since doe commit sinne most properly in our Soules our bodies being but the Instruments of our Soules In which words you speake of
that doctrine to the people The iust and mercifull God did not so vse the iniurie of his will those are his words that to restore vs hee would only shew the power of his clemenâ—…ie but because it was a consequent that man committing sinne should be the seruant of sinne God so fitted the medicine to the sicke the pardon to the guiltie and redâ—…mption to the captures that the iust sentence of condemnation should be dissolued by tâ—…e iust worke of the 〈◊〉 For if only the Godhead should haue opposed it selfe for vs sinners not so much reason as power should conquer the diuell The Sonne of God therefore admitted wicked hands to be layed on him and what the rage of the persecutors offered with patient power he suffered This was that great mysterie of godlinesse that Christ was euer loaden with iniuries which if he should haue repelled with open power and manifest vertue he should haue exercised onely his diuine strength but not regarded our cause that were men For in all things which the madnesse of the people and Priests did reprochfully and 〈◊〉 vnto him our sinnes were wiped away and our offences purged The diuell himselfe did not vnderstand that his crueltie against Christ should ouerthrow his owne kingdome WHO SHOVLD NOT LOOSE THE RIGHT OF HIS FIRST FRAVD IF HE COVLD ABSTAINE FROM THE LORDS BLOVD But greedie with malice to hurt whiles he rusheâ—…h on Christ himselfe falleth whiles he taketh he is taken and persuing him that was mortall he lighted on him that was the Sauiour of the world Iesus Christ being lifted vp on the tree returned death vpon the Authour of death and strangled all the principalities and powers that were against him by obiecting his flesh that was possible giuing place in himselfe to the presumption of our ancient enemie who raging against mans nature that was subiect vnto him durst there exact his debt where he could finde no signe of sinne Therefore the generall and mortall hand-writing by which we were solde was torne and the contract of our captiuitie came into the power of the Redeemer The person of the Sonne tookâ—… vpon him properly the reparation of mankinde that whose maker he was he might be their restorer so directing his counsell to effect that to destroy the kingdome of the diuell he rather vsed the righteousnesse of reason then the power of his might For whiles the diuell raged on him whom he held by no law of sinne he lost the right of his wicked dominion I repeat the more to let the Reader see that the Fathers in this case doe not play with figures as this Discourser dreameth but they consonantly propose and vrge with earnest and euident words a great point of Christian pietie Gregorie teacheth the same lesson When Satan tooke Christes bodie to crucifie it he lost Christes elect from the right of his power And by Gods speech to Satan concerning Iob Beholde he is in thine hand but saue his life hee thus declaâ—…eth Gods Commission to Satan touching Christ Tâ—…ke thou power against his bodie and lose the right of thy wicked dominion ouer his â—…lect Damascene also noteth that one respect why Christ was made man was to stoppe the diuels murmuring if God should haue taken man out of his hands by the power of his Deitie Christ was made man sayth he that that which was conquered might conquer God was not vnable who is able to doe all things by his almightie power and force to take man from the Tyrant that helâ—… him but that would haue beene a cause of complaint to the Tyrant that had conquered man if he were forced by God Therefore God who pitied and loued vs willing to make man that was fallen the conqueror of Satan became man restoring the like by the like that is man by man And in this sayth Damascene appeareth Gods iustice that man being ouerthrowen he would haue none other besides man to conquer the Tyrant neither would he by violence take man from death but whom death had of old brought into bondâ—…ge by sinne eâ—…en him would the gracious and righteous God make conquer againe What reason then haue you to reuell at Saint Augustine and Saint Ambrose in such sort as you doe that their names are of no waitht to warrant such a Doctrine as those words of theirs pretend Or what teach they different from the rest of the Fathers if their words be rightly taken and not wrested aside to your crooked conceiâ—…s That the bloud of Christ was so sufficient a price for vs that not onely the voluntarie sacrificing thereof throughly satisfied the displeased Iustice of God and obtained remission of all our sinnes but eâ—…en the wrongfull shedding thereof by Satans instigation wrought the subuersion of Satans power and right in all the â—…lect God by the rule of Iustice giuing vnto Christs manhoode the spoyle of Satans kingdome â—…or the patience which Christ shewed whiles Satan by the mouthes and hands of the wicked spoyled Christs humane nature of honor and life for the time what danger is there in this to the Christian Faith or what repugnancie to the sacred Scriptures THEREFORE VVILL I giue him his part in many things â—…aith God of Christs manhoode and he shall deuide THE SPOYLE of the mightie or with the mightie because he powred forth his Soule vnto death this the Apostle shâ—…weth was executed against the Diuels them selues Christ SPOYLED Principalities and Powers and made a shew of thâ—…m openly triumphing ouer them in his owne Person According as God threatned the Serpent vpon his first deceauing the woman I will put enmitie betweene thy seâ—…de and her seâ—…de he shall bruize thine head and thou shalt bruize his heele Where God expresseth plainly the Recompence that the seed of the woman should haue for suffering Satan to bruize his heâ—…le euen the bruizing of the Serpents head For nothing is more equall with God then to remâ—…ate the same measure to men and Angels that they mâ—…te to others It was therefore a thing most iust in the sight of God as he subiected Man to Satans power when by sinne he first conquered Man so he subiected Satan to the will and power of Christs manhoode when by righteousnesse Christ conquered the diuell And as Christ patiently endured to be wrongfully depriued of his life by the meanes and members of Satan so in requitall of that presumption and iniurie Christ powerfully and iustly depâ—…ed Satan of all his â—…ight and interest to the Elect for whose sakes Christ gaue his life This excludeth not the voluntarie seruice and sacrifice of Christs obedience vnto death wherewith the Iustice of God was satisfied and appeased but this sheweth that as God had chiefe regard of his owne Iustice and mercie towards man in giuing his owne Sonne to be the pacification of his wrath and propitiation of our sinnes so he dealt iustly with the diuell in causing the
Fâ—…st the dislike of God refusing them the sting of sinne defiling them the sting of death excluding them from all ioy and peace râ—…st and ease of soule and bodie for euer Applie this to Christ and his members and we shall presently finde by the rules of our Christian faith how farre they agree to either No true curse can be ascribed to Christ which shall seuer him from God without apparent impietie for neither the fauour of Gods fauour towards his manhood nor the fulnesse of grace and trueth in his soule nor the stedfast and most assured expectation of euerlasting ioy and glorie set before him euen in his greatest afflictions and temptations may be doubted of by any that will retaine the name of a Christian besides the perpetuall and personall vnion of his manhood with his Godhead to which was consequent such a communion with God and fruition of God as no elect man or angell euer had or can haue Wherefore you must either defend that the true curse of God did not seuer him from God but that one and the same nature in him might be truely blessed and yet truly accursed of God at one and the same time which are monsters meet for your doctrine or els you must wholly forbeare to affâ—…rme any true curse of Christ that shal separaâ—…e him from God and what other true curses you will attribute to him I would gladly heare The like though in farre lesse measure I yeeld to the membeâ—…s of Christ for since they were before all worlds beloued elected and blessed with all spirituall blessings in Christ and the foundation of God standeth sure hauing this Seale the Lord knoweth who are his yea the gifts and calling of God are without repâ—…ntance And the Apostle is fully perswaded that neither death nor life nor angels â—…r principalities nor things present nor things future nor heigth nor depth nor any other creature shall be able to separate vs from the loue of God which is in Christ Iesus but that whom God did predestinate those he called and whom he called those he iustified and whom he iustified those he glorified I see no true curse no not sinne it selfe that can fasten on Christes members to their destruction but howsoeuer by nature tâ—…ey were the children of Gods wrath as well as others yet by grace they are saued and all things shall woâ—… for the best to them that loue God and are loued of him They may want theâ—…e gâ—…ft and graces for a time and so not feele the fruits of Gods election and vocâ—…tion but with God they are truely blessed because they are surely setled in hiâ—… fauour and fore-appointed to be heires of Saluation though they lie censâ—…ed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for a while in the masse of Adams condemnation The loue and 〈◊〉 then of God is the originall of all true blessing and since that is vnmoueaâ—…le towards the â—…lect how much soeuer they be sometimes plunged by sinne and Satan into feares and doubts of their saluation all that is to humble them and not to destroy them and with God who is trueth it selfe they are truely blessed as being adopted in Christ though in mans iudgement and euen to themselues they seeme neuer so much accursed What curses you aske then may be on the godlie Gods loue which is the ground of all true blessing can not varie towards them it is euerlasting and immutable like himselfe All other blessings saue this they may want for a season in this world as before they are lightned and called to the knowledge of God they haue no blessing in them more then the very Reprobate haue After they are engrassed in Christ they may be tosâ—…ed and turmoyled with the very same eâ—…ernall and corporall plagues and punishments that the wicked are and often times with greater and thaâ—…-per but then they are supported with inward grace and comfort which others are not and when by ignorance feare or infirmitie they fall they shall not perish Where then in the Curses of God inflicted on the wicked in this world and the next three things must be marked their Dâ—…PRIVANCE of his blesâ—…ings of all sorts their COHERENCE together and CONTINVANCE for euer the godly communicate with the wicked in some part of the first that is they may be sequestred from such externall and corporall blessings as this life requireth but of spirituall they can not vtterly be depâ—…ued because they must be regenerated and renued in the inward man to the Image of God and sealed by the holy spirit of promise that they may be partakers of Christ here in this world in whom they haue Redemption euen the Remission of sinnes according to the riches of his grace In the rest they may not communicate with the wicked For where the Curses of God doe FOLLOVV one another vpon the Reprobate and abide for euer in the highest degree from this the godly are wholy free as DELIVERED by the mercies of God in Christ from this present euill world and from the wrath to come If then we be saued from these things by Christ how much more must Christ him selfe be saued from them before he could saue others So that Christ as I said at first by submitting him selfe to a part of the curse of the Law which depriueth vs of all earthly and bodily blessings and of life it selfe quenched the whole Curse of the Law and by his shamefull wrongfull and painefull death quited vs from euerlasting death which was the iust reward of our sinnes You say if by the Resurrection of Christ the Nature of death were changed then till Christ was risen death was a punishment to the faithfull themselues I wonder what meaning there is in this Argument As well you may say that none were saued till Christ was risen Wonder then at your owne conceits reasons and Authorities For if the nature of Death were changed as you suppose it was since it was first inflicted on Adam I asked you how and when before the change you doe not doubt but it was a punishment you must graunt to the godly for Christ neuer changed the Nature of Death to the wicked Then if the change were made by Christs dying and rising from the dead how thinke you doth it not follow vpon this confession that death BEFORE it was changed in the godly by Christs Resurrection was a punishment euen to the godly And to this end you bring the Catechisme in this very Section Death which BEFORE was a punishment is now by Christ become a vantage If death were neuer but a vantage to the godly euen when it was first inflicted then the change that you dreame to be made of death in the Godly is but a fansie If NOVV it be so which BEFORE it was not then BEFORE what else could it be to the godly but a punishment of sinne My Resolution was and is that Christ was first promised by Gods
he groned in spirite 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and troubled or affected him selfe If this Rule be true which hath the grounds of faith and the words or the holie Ghost for a foundation then your assertion is false and against the faith that tkese were alwaies in Christ and alwaies caused an he 〈◊〉 in him For you imply a continuall necessitie of sorrow and griefe in the Soule of Christ where the Scriptures and Fathers teach vs that nothing could 〈◊〉 griefe or sorrow on him but when he himselfe would And that Iesus sometimes reicyced and l Luc. 10. v. 21. exulted in Spirit giuing thankes to his Father for hiding the mysteries of his kingdome from the wise and prudent and reuealing them to seelie ones the 〈◊〉 is euident You therefore as your manner is graunt that which is false and deny that which is true For what if Christ often though not alwaies sorrowed for these three aforesaid is that any proofe that 〈◊〉 Passion approching where he sawe 〈◊〉 lewes should call for the vengeance of his bloud to be on them and their children and was now by most earnest ardent prayer to obtaine remission of sinnes direction of his spirit and protection from Satan for his whole Church the Time and place now 〈◊〉 requiring it he should not with greater sorrow behold the one and with more 〈◊〉 zeale intreat the other But m Desenc pa. 94. li. 37. I strangely deceiue my selfe you say if I thinke that any or ali of these did so farre exceede in him as to procure his most dreadfull and bloudy Agony When I heare you speake some truth or see you vnderstand any thing right I will more regard your word then now I doe That these things might be the causes thereof shall plainly appeare to the sober and aduised Reader when we come to the discussing of them Howbeit I doe not say that euery one of these sixe was the whole cause of his Agonie as you childishly carpe or that these sixe were the sole causes of his Agonie but these respects were such as might most exceedingly grieue and most inwardly affect the Soule of Christ making now way by prayer to procure the course of mans Redemption to be actually and effectually decreed and pronounced at his instance which he would after perfect with patience Neither are there greater workes in mans redemption then these that were now in hand with which if you thinke it not likely nor possible the Soule of our Sauiour should be mightily affected your erroneous Imagination is farre stranger then my position of pietie and possibilitie for as if you aske me what the Angell that came from heauen said to Christ in the Garden I must openly professe I take vpon me no such knowledge but leaue Gods secrets to himselfe and his Sonne so what occasions besides these might at that instant affect the Soule of Christ I dare not determine though you be so desperate that you nothing doubt Christ then felt in Soule from the immediate hand of God the selfe same paines which the damned doe in hell Notwithstanding the Scriptures insinuate no such suspition much lesse auouch any such Doctrine for mans redemption n Defenc pag. 95 li. 1. For the Reiection of the Iewes what reason bring you Christ wept ouer their Cittie ergo now at his Passion he was driuen into his dreadfull Agonie for this cause You must make your owne match or else you will quickly marre all Where I professed it impossible certainly to conclude the true cause of Christs Agonie your wisedome taketh a part of my words and clappeth on a Conclusion to them of your owne stamping and then you say the Argument is nought and so nimble you be at nothing that where I repeate sixe causes that might be concurrent therein you will haue me inferre that euery one of them was the whole and sole cause thereof But your mastership is to warme to be wise and to selfe-willed to be sound you doe not so much as see or care why I tooke this in for one of the causes that might meete in this Agonie The reuerent o Sermo pag. 19. li. 4. regard I had to the Iudgements of Ambrose Ierom Augustine and Bede who obserued this before me as one of the causes that might be of Christs sorrow in the Garden made me number this amongst the rest howsoeuer you spurne them away like foote-bals and thinke with a wilde gallop to winne the Goale But soft Sir first their opinions lie in your way which wise men will respect before your emptie wordes and lasie likelihoods that haue no salt in them besides the sharpnesse of your humour Secondly my reasons to my purpose are auaileable enough though you mishape them with a senselesse error of your own as if euerie of these six were the single and sole cause of this agonie There can no one particular cause be assigned of Christes feare sorrow and zeale in the Garden but since himselfe is a witnesse that his Soule was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 on euery side pressed with sorrow my proofes which you cannot auoide inferre that amongst others this might be one cause of his sorrow And so much those Fathers professe as I haue formerly shewed and you cannot decline them but with impudent flurting at them that p Defenc. pag. 95. li. 15. this verily cannot stand with any reason But of our Reasons let the Reader Iudge Christ wept at the sight of Ierusalem when he remembred her desolation by the hands of the Romanes What griefe then was it to him in all reason to foresee the reiection of that people from the sauour of God by their rash and wicked desire to haue his bloud on them and their children at the time of his arraignment before Pilate If Moses and Paul so vehemently 〈◊〉 at the fall of their bretheren according to the flesh that for their sakes the one wished to be wiped out of the Booke of God the other most sacredly protested the great heauinesse and continuall anguish that he felt in hart for them how much more then did it grieue the Sauiour of the world who farre exceeded both the other in compassion and mercie to see himselfe that came to blesse them and saue them to be the ruine and stone of offence that should stumble them and their children striking them with perpetuall blindnesse and bruizing them with euerlasting perdition through their vnbeliefe To this what answere you q Defenc. pag. 95. li. 28. It prooueth that Christ surely had very great pittie and commiseration of them but nothing else in the world I professed to prooue no more Why then should not this be one of the causes that mooued Christ to sorrow in the Garden where he confesâ—…ed his Soule was on euery side heauie r Ibid. li. 30. Christ might haue farre greater pittie of them then Moses or Paul had and yet he was able to carrie his affection farre more patiently
if you take vpon you to tell you must consult with Balaams beast for no man can tell you vnlesse you finde by the starres how long that sturre dured For my part I thinke as they were neuer satisfied with his torments so neuer left they taking all occasions to deride him as we may perceiue by the very speaking of these words vpon which some sayd Let be Let vs see if Elias will come and saue him Now if the very passengers did not refraine their tongues from 〈◊〉 on him shal we thinke the standers by did so quickly leaue with mouth to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 heart to disdaine him and condemne him as forsaken of God in the midst of so many shames and miseries And the poison of their hearts accounting him to be wicked and reiected of God was the thing which Christ respected as well as the 〈◊〉 of their tongues But what if their mocks did cease at twelue of the clocke as you 〈◊〉 presume with out all good ground might not Christ therefore in this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 their 〈◊〉 words and hatefull thoughts three houres after when now he was 〈◊〉 to giue vp the ghost though whiles life did last he was content with all quietnesse and silence to endure them Was it so fond and absurd as you talke of to 〈◊〉 them with the beginning of that Psalme that all these things which he had suffered and they had vsed towards him were foreprophesied of the Messias and Sauiour of the world Who but a man destitute of wit or sense would giue such entertainment to two so learned and ancient Fathers for so saying t Defenc. pag. 114. li. 16. Your authorities are bare arguments Ierom bringeth no reason but his owne word 〈◊〉 I see not what he sayth to your purpose at all Your absurdities and contrarieties hatcht out of your owne head are farre worse arguments Ieroms bare word is as good as your bare will or bold face in any place in Christendome Howbeit Ierom is not alone in this minde S. Austen sayth u August epist. 120. Psalmum cuius prophetiam 〈◊〉 ad se 〈◊〉 demonstrans cius primum versum exclamauit cum pendâ—…ret in ligno To shew the prophesie of that Psalme to perteine to him the Lord repeated the first verse thereof with a loud voice as he hung on the crosse You see not how Chrysostome maketh to this purpose Christ spake these wordes sayth Chrysostome that thereby the Iewes might learne he honoured his Father to the last breath and that his Father was no 〈◊〉 x 〈◊〉 in Matth. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to him Therefore he spake the Prophets words confirming the ancient Scripture that they might perceiue him to be of the same will with his Father Had he beene forsaken 〈◊〉 his Father and conuicted thereof by his owne confession as you interpret Christs words he had declared by his speech his Father to be an aduersarie to him since to 〈◊〉 is no signe of loue but of dislike But he spake these words of the Prophet to proue that his Father was not opposite to him but of the same will with him What els can Chrysostome meane by this but that the Prophet by this Psalme foreshewed the Sonne of God and Sauiour of the world should speake these words on the crosse and thereby not only affirme that God was his God and not his aduersarie but ratifie the ancient Scripture euen that whole Psalme as forespoken of him whereby the Iewes might plainely learne that nothing befell him which the Prophet in that Psalme did not before declare should befall the true Messias and Sauiour of the world y Defenc. pag. 114. li. 〈◊〉 Finally these kindes of dereliction which you mention besides pag. 32 33 38 c. are nothing sitter than the former You sit like a supreame Iudge ouer Fathers and Scriptures and cassiere all besides your owne conceits vpon the warrant of your owne will without any farther trouble or proofe It is vrged in those pages which you passe ouer that forsaking thorowout the Scriptures neuer signifieth the state or paines of the damned You care not for that your will must haue way and your word must stand It is there also auouched that whensoeuer the godly complaine in the Scriptures as they often doe that they are forsaken they meane of helpe in time of need and of deliuerance in the day of trouble Nor Scriptures nor Fathers haue any power to preuaile against your pleasure you will haue forsaking in Christes words to note the paines of the damned though there be no example thereof in any diuine or humane writings You are belike some Praetor or some Pilate that what you haue written you haue written and other reason you will yeeld none z Defenc pag. 114. li. 22. Six or seuen diuers yea contrary senses you haue brought of a few words and of them all you say they are all godly expositions and all these interpretations are sound and stand well with the rules of Christian pietie How sound and fit they are it hath beene scene And what haue you found in any of them dissonant from the rules of Christian pietie for which I commended them They fit not your fansie I know it well but they swarue neither from the faith of Christ nor from the word of God For where all good Expositions The true rules how to expound the Scriptures should haue these foure conditions the right vse of the words the circumstances of the place the coherence with other Scriptures and concordance with the maine grounds of pietie and charitie which by no pretence of any speech in Scripture may be impugned these expositions of the ancient Fathers transgresse in none of them And where the Iewes falsely wickedly and blasphemously obiected to Christ that he was forsaken of God you out of the abundance of your wit and faith will haue Christ on the crosse publikely and plainly to confesse and confirme their sacrilegious obiections and to iustifie their impietie for trueth by acknowledging with a loud voice that he was forsaken of God A worse exposition than which the diuell himselfe could not deuise For whatsoeuer was inwardly betweene him and his Father he would neuer so openly ratifie their impious and slanderous cogitations and imputations with his owne mouth nor leaue such a confession presently before his death in the eares and hearts of all his enemies as that he found himselfe to be truely and inwardly forsaken of God but rather calling that a forsaking which they misconstrued to be so he complained that God had so long with such patience left him in their hands without any shew as yet of loue and fauour towards him which made his enemies thinke God had indeed forsaken him z Defenc pag. 114. li. 26. Verily you haue a good head if you can reconcile all these and make them stand together Doth any man that hath so much as a head require to haue all expositions reconciled before they may be tolerated
When they are diuers the Reader may make his choise what he best liketh but there is no cause nor reason to reiect all that can not be reconciled Neither did I tell you they might all stand together but I sayd they stood well with the rules of Christian pietie And since they had in them no contradiction to the text nor to the faith I saw no ground to depriue the Reader of them much lesse to reiect or disdaine the authours of them as you do And yet truly it were no such hard matter as you imagine to make the substance of them stand together For why might not Christ on the crosse as the head and Sauiour of his bodie in his owne name make his complaint or inquire the cause why both he and his were so long and in this wise forsaken as namely the head to be left to the paine shame and death of the crosse and his members to the poison of sinne and rage of Satan and therefore pray that his members might be freed and restored to Gods fauour and himselfe be eased of his anguish with deposing his spirit into his Fathers hands and honoured with the signes of his Fathers loue and liking towards him when he should depart this life that all his enemies might know there was a great and good cause euen the glory of God and mans saluation why he was thus martyred and mocked on the crosse Here are the effects of those sixe or seuen causes layd together what so great repugnancie finde you betwixtthem that because they are manie therefore your hell-paines should be the likelier to be the true meaning of these words a Defenc. pag. 114. li. 27. A very badde opinion of the holy Scriptures you seeme to haue if you thinke they may be handled by Interpretations and Expositions thus that a man may take them in sixe or seuen diuers senses and all sustisiable I honour them more in not reiecting the manifolde expositions of considerate and godly Interpreters than you do in fastening them to the leauen of your sower humour and affixing such senses to them as shall contradict the maine grounds of faith and religion deliuered in them And who but you did euer hinder Expositors olde or new to labour in them and scant to reach to the depth of them since as you seeme to be affected no man may offer diuersly to interpret them for feare of hauing a badde opinion of them But such is your stiffe and proud presumption all things that like not you are vaine and friuolous and your fansies be they neuer so vnreasonable or irreligious must be weighty and holy b Defenc. pag. 114. li. 34. Now it resteth that I gather some reasons from the expresse Scripture to shew you that indeed very paines and the vehemencte of sorrowes namely which he now susteined by way of yeelding satisfaction and sacrifice for sinne were the principall and only proper cause of his most dreadfull agonies and complaint Which trucly though it need no reason for proofe of it the matter being so cleere in it selfe yet your vnreasonablenesse is such that it draweth somewhat from me about it Your Art of carping hath fayed but ill-fauouredly with you you will now proceed to your trade of prouing and that by expresse Scripture wherein you shew your selfe to be right your selfe that is take all your owne fansies for expresse Scripture and though your conceits be such that are more worthy to be derided than answered yet the matter you say is so cleere in it selfe that it needeth no reason for proofe of it The expresse Scriptures on which you so much stand are the name of the Agonie the Houre and the Cuppe with this one sentence My soule is on euery side heauy vnto death About these you brabble going neither backeward nor forward but heaping vp a few generall phrases of mightie sorowes and excessiue paines you iterate the very same that you often sayd before and adde not so much as a piece of a reason that should stumble a man of any vnderstanding And touching your hell paines or the second death you lay that on soaking till your proouing be ouerpast and then we shall heare of it at Lands end when you are lightned of your burden c Defenc. pag. 115. li 3. First no Christian doubteth I suppose much lesse denieth that Christs most wofull agonies and complaining belonged properly and directly to his Passion and sacrifice and that they expressed a part thereof yea as I thinke not the least part but his whole sacrifice consisted in afflictions The prince of our saluation was consecrated through afflictions Therefore afflictions sorrowes and paines were the cause of his agonies and complaint not his religious The Defenders maner of reasoning is as illogical as his matter is false feare not his piette or pitie Somewhat it was this gecre was Drawen from you it commeth not so vnwillingly but it commeth as vntowardly from you First to the forme and then to the matter of your argument Your conclusion is a strange kind of creature it hath to much and yet it hath too little For before you can exclude religious feare pittie and pietie from the cause of Christs agonie or complaint you must adde onely to your inference and say Afflictions sorrowes and paines were the onely cause of Christs agonies and complaint Otherwise with one part you exclude another as if a man would say that your head is not part of your bodie because your heele is which would put all your reasons in daunger to be drawen out of your heele and not out of your head And yet as defectiue as your conclusion is one way it is as excessiue another way For these words were the cause are stollen into this conclusion of which there was no mention in your premisses and so your precedent propositions are of one countrey and your conclusion of another they haue not so much as entercourse eche with other where by the rules of reason and Art there should be nothing in your conclusion which is not exactly specified in your premisses Your maior beginneth with belonged to your minor proceedeth to consisted in and your conclusion huddleth was the cause of which are rather like forkes to skatrer then rakes to gather the parts of your syllogisme together If to hale in your conclusion you will amend your assumption as you must and say that afflictions were the onely cause of Christs sacrifice we shall more wonder at this monster then at the former For besides the falsenesse of it in that it is vtterly repugnant to all truth since the causes of Christs sacrifice were sinne in vs needing it Loue in Christ proferring it and Iustice in God requiring it how come the parts of any thing to be the causes thereof Afflictions suffered were parts of Christs sacrifice and not the causes And therefore you must pray the Printer to stampe you a new conclusion before any part of this argument will haue
not proue them to be either irreligious or vtterly comfortlesse since b Heb. 12. for the ioy that was set before him he endured the crosse and despised the shame and c Reuel 3. ouercomming sitteth with his Father in his throne By which confession of our Sauiours we must learne that he vsed no power to repell or rebate his paines but that he had as sensible and tender feeling of all his sufferings in the weaknesse of his flesh which he with obedience and patience subiected to that burden as any man could haue and rather more in that he willingly layd aside his strength whiles he suffered for sinne d Defenc. pag. 115. li. 21. You do very ill to make these parts of Christs holinesse proper parts of his satisfaction and the maine causes of his agonie and complaint And woorse you doe if you ascribe them not to any paines in him at all And what doe you to acknowledge no cause in Christ of his complaint or agonie neither religious nor naturall but only the paines of hell and to seuer the inward sacrifice of an afflicted spirit from the outward sacrifice of his bodie for the purgation of our sinnes since he wanted in no point that was required or accepted of God but yeelded that to him which was due from vs in farre more excellent and perfect maner than we can comprehend It is therefore voluntary blindnesse and deafenesse in you to shut eyes and eares at all sorts of religious sorowes and feares when you reade that Christ feared and sorowed in the Garden and so to pitch on the paines of the damned which haue no witnesse in holy writ that nothing can remoue you or content you but your owne conceit e Defenc. pag. 115. li. 25. Secondly the summe of these fore-noted texts must be considered namely that Christ expresly wished sundry times in his dreadfull astonishment suddenly euen against Gods knowen will in one respect and here are expressed with his strange astonishment his mightie sorowes and feare of them partly felt and partly further to come After a large promise of cleere proofs and expresse Scriptures for so great and weighty matters as these are you trole out your owne false and absurd conceits no way gathered from the Scriptures but violently vrged on them with more rage than reason and now so often refuted that a man would be wearic if not ashamed to spend so much time in these idle repetitions of the selfe-same misapprehensions and misconstructions of some words of the Euangelist The summe of all these fore-noted texts is that the Euangelists say Christ professed his soule was heauie vnto death that the Apostle addeth he was heard in that he feared that himselfe on the crosse sayd My God my God why hast thou forsaken me All these places are already handled and cleered and no paines of the damned or of the second death found any thing neere to any of these words What meaneth then this importunitie to obtrude them againe as fresh and new proofes without any farder paines bestowed on them then barâ—…ly the repâ—…ating of only two poisened rootes you haue added to them out of your owne store the one is the dreadfull and strange astonishment during all the time of Christs praier in the Garden the other is the sundry suddaine wishes of Christ in that astonishment euen against Gods knowen will which things as your maner is you proue by your owne authority painting them out with dreadfull strange and mighty words when your proofes be weake and childish That Christ praied suddainly and sundry times against the knowen will of God is a false and wicked position and as directly repugnant to the Scriptures as any thing may be Saint Luke saith his praier was f Luc. 22. v. 42 Father if thou wilt take away this cup from me And the Apostle saith he was heard in that he feared So that not only you auouch this thing against expresse Scripture but you bring the sonne of God within the compasse of vnaduised and faithlesse praiers which you excuse with as false and lewd a deuice because he was past sense and memory what he did whereas he well remembred mentioned and reserued his fathers will in his praiers and warned his Apostles to g Matth. 26. watch and pray that they entred not into temptation and constantly continued his praiers till he was h Luc. 22. comforted by an Angell from heauen and i Heb. 5. heard in that he â—…eared As for his astonishment neither doe the words vsed by the Euangelist Saint Mark import any such strange and dreadsull want of sense and memory as you imagine neither doe the consequents declare any such continuance as you pretend but in both these you prescribe your owne will ro be the rule of your faith First the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth either admiration alone or â—…ls a mixtion thereof with some feare vpon any suddaine or strange sight When the Creeple that lay at the beautyfull gate of the temple asking almes was healed by Peter and Iohn the people seeing him walking and leaping and praising God were filled with admiration and astonishment and flocked to Salomons porch 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 euèn amazed This affection in them Peter expresseth in the next verse after this sort k Acts 3. v. 12. Ye men of Israell saith he 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 why wonder you at this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or why looke you so steadfastly on vs so that stedfast beholding and inward admiring are the force of this word in that place When Christ returned from the mountaine where he was transfigured to his nine Disciples that were disputing with the Scribes l Mar. 9. v. 15. All the people as soone as they saw him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 were amazed and came to him and saluted him In neither of these places can we imagine the people were stroken with such great feare that should take their senses from them and in this last it is expressely written they ranne and saluted him which argueth that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 importeth a sudden admiration sometimes without feare and sometimes permixed with feare for the sight of some strange or vnknowen thing So the people when they saw him cast out vncleane spirits with his word m Mar. 1. v. 27. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 were all amazed and asked one of another What thing is this What new doctrine is this And the women that went earely to Christes sepulchre and n Mar. 16. v. 5. saw a yong man sitting clothed in a long white robe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they were afrayd and he sayd to them o 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Be not afraid In none of which places the word signifieth any hellish paine or confusion but either admiration or such sudden feare ioyned with some wondering as a strange or vnknowen sight breedeth though we feare no hurt towards our selues And of these very
Catechisme and the notes in the great Bible here to shew the cause of Christs agonie to be these horrible sorrowes and torments as the Catechisme sayth of future and euerlasting death Why then are you so nice when you fully intend it in shew to denie it why did you not refuse that in the beginning The causes that might concurre in Christs agonie I shewed in my sermons out of the auncient Fathers agreeing with the Scriptures why should I repeate it againe in my conclusion you bringing nothing against it but a few voluntarie and emptie words which I know no man so vnwise as to regard without better proofe f pa 118. li. 32 There is no other sorrow in the world to be found which can be imagined to be the cause possibly You erre as well in aggrauating Christs agonie aboue that the text auoucheth as in assigning a false cause thereof out of your owne fansie Feare and sorrow the Scripture affirmeth in Christ if we so interprete the words as you doe but such feare and such sorow as cannot be found in the world except the feares sorowes of the second death this is your bold assertion no way mentioned nor purposed in the Scriptures nor grounded on any sound reason or experience For where the paines of some kinds of bodily deaths be often greater then mans nature can endure and therefore violently part the soule from the body what did hinder the paines of Christs body on the crosse to be such that they pressed his patience to the highest degree since he would not strengthen his flesh to sustaine the paines of hell as you pretend but layd downe all power that he might feele the smart and anguish of his bodily torments as tenderly as any man could Now what paines in others ouerwhelme the senses and hasten death as passing the strength of mans nature why might not euen the same bodily paines in Christ so presse his humane weakenesse that he felt himselfe able with patience to support no more and so prayed on the crosse for an end thereof and foresaw so much in the Garden which made him earnest if it were possible to decline it What can be sayd against this sharpenesse and bitternesse of bodily paine since in all Martyrs and malefactours their deaths declare that paine in the end doth so preuaile that the rage thereof is vtterly intolerable to mans nature and therefore sundereth the soule from the body with extreme violence as exceeding all humanâ—… patience and strength g Defenc. pag. 118. li. 34. My other words also which here you cruelly condemne shall stand well enough that Christ as touching the vehemencie of paine was as sharpely touched as the reprobates themselues yea if it may be more extraordinarily though you labour with might and maine to make them amount to heresie and open blasphemie My words were more moderate then your dangerous comparisons deserued h Conclus pa. 290. li 35. I prayed you in so waightie matters as might amount to heresie and open blasphemie not to play with generall termes such as you neither vnderstood your selfe nor any man else could conceiue your meaning You would needs tell vs that Christ in soule was as sharpely touched and with as great vehemencie of paine euen as the reprobates themselues and more if it might be I asked you not where you found this written in the word of God which is the rule of our faith an vnwritten creâ—…de must needs haue vnwritten conclusions nor how you prooued it for your owne will is your best warrant for your new faith but what you ment thereby The terrors of the reprobates in this life which we might collect by the Scriptures were i Ibid. pa. 291. remorse of sinne reiection from Gods fauour desperation of mercie here and of all ioy and blisle in the world to come and a dreadfull expectation of horrible confusion and euerlasting fire k Ibidem I thought you durst not I hoped you would not offer so much as the mention of the least of these to be found in the sonne of God What wrong did I here vnto you were it not with too much sparing you and how plainly did I prouoke you to expresse your selfe but that your cunning is such that then you did and yet you doe forbeare to vnfold your generall and ambiguous speaches You persist still in your old song and say that touching the vehemencie of paine this is true As though remorse reiection desperation and expectation of euerlasting confusion and fire were NO PAINES to the soules of the reprobates Why play you with the name of paine to and fro after this sort Why role you sometimes to feares sometime to sorrowes sometime to paines as the causes of Christs agonie and those sometime apprehended by the mind of Christ sometime really inflicted by Gods immediate hand what Christ did or might apprehend you neuer declare you thinke it enough to tell vs his l Defenc. pag. 52. li. 35. vnderstanding chiefly conceiued the furie of that hand which principally strooke those blowes vpon his humane nature and thus with Metaphors you delude vs when you should distinctly deliuer what Christ conceiued of those afflictions which he suffered from the counsell and power of God determining them for mans redemption Yea besides apprehension and conception of mind you bring in your hell paines at your pleasure as an inherent and absolute torment really inflicted on the soule of Christ by Gods immediate hand as it is on all the damned after this life for the vengeance of their sinnes and when you are asked the proofe of these things you affourd vs figures and phrases to stuffe out your wallet m Defenc. pag. 119. li. 1. Why doe you not bend your odious outcries and accusations against the authoritie before truely cited which maintaineth the same so fully and amply as I deliuer it The Catechisme hath some generall words that Christ conflicted with all the powers of hell not as suffering them but as resisting them and that he endured horrible feares and griefes of mind to satisfie the iudgement of God and to pacifie his wrath These words if you will stretch to what please you they may seeme to haue some seedes of your error though not the buds and branches thereof but as they be generall so if we reuoke them to the grounds of the sacred Scriptures which was no doubt the writers and the allowers meaning then may we extend them no farder then we haue warrant in the word of God to iustifie them The feares and horrors which you would conuert to the reall suffering of the temporall hell the Catechisme referreth to the feare and horror of euerlasting death which you confesse Christ n Defenc pag. 99. most perfectly knew concerned him not at all and by no meanes could euer possibly come neere him How then doe you concurre with the authoritie which you cite saue that you peruert some generall words there
Chrysostomus in â—…adem â—…ratione apud Theodâ—…retum Dialogo 3. If this were spoken saith he of Christs diuinity then were it a contradiction indeed and many absurdities would thence follow but if it were spoken of his flesh then was there a good reason for those wordes and nothing in them that might iusâ—…ly be blamed For that the flesh would not willingly die this is not to be condemned it is proper to mans nature And Christ shewed in himselfe all the properties of mans nature without sinne and that very abundantly to stop the mouthes of Heretickes When then he saith if it be possible let this cup passe from me and not as I will but as thou wilt he declareth nothing els but that he was compassed with true flesh which feared death For to feare and shunne death and to be astonished or perplexed therewith is proper to flesh Now therefore that is at this time when he spake these wordes he permitted his flâ—…sh alone and naked to her proper action that shewing the infirmity thereof he might confirme the trueth of his humane nature and sometimes he couereth it because he was not a bare man Graunt you by these words that Christ declared nothing els but that he was a true man and naturally feared and shunned death which is the dissolution of nature as we do and you shall haue leaue to call this affection different or repugnant in power and strength but not in purpose or petition to the will of his diuine nature q Defenc pag. 124. li. 33. I grant M. Beza vseth some termes differing from ours yet his sense is the selfe same with ours He sayd Christ corrected not his speech as if he had before spoken amisse I say he did correct his speech making it being good to be better You can not by your leaue thus winde out from your lewd assertion that Christs prayer could not haue wanted sinne had he beene in perfect remembrance without astonishment If Christes prayer were good without the latter addition which you call a correction ergo it was not repugnant to the knowen will of God much lesse sinne in it selfe but that Christ now wanted remembrance by reason of his infinite and incomprehensible paines You would faine daube vp these dangerous conceits and conclusions but your morter is vntempered If Christes desire were good as now you grant before this correction and how could any thing be but good which proceeded from him then which way inferred you your hell paines out of that prayer where is the ground of your conclusion that Christ sinned in that prayer if he were not astonished because it was in plaine words contrarie to Gods knowen will Is any thing good that is contrarie to Gods knowen will Faine you would and yet you know not how to keepe this geere vpright r Defenc. pag. 125. li. 7. Neither is this particular contrariety to Gods will any sinne namely when by Gods owne ordinance we know not what Gods speciall will is so that we alwayes remaine apt and readie there unto when we know it Is this all the GOODNESSE you grant in the former part of Christes prayer that it was no sinne because Christ wanted remembrance doth Chrysostome teach you any such doctrine It may be pardoned by your rule for want of memorie but that is no commendation of any goodnesse in it And yet if we venture to pray without faith it is sinne so to tempt God Neither can we be excused by want of iudgement or memorie we may omit somewhat for want of vnderstanding but if we commit ought vpon opinion or credulitie that it is good and lawfull for vs when indeed it is not so that doth not excuse our ignorance or forgetfulnesse It is the lesse sinne but sinne it is and farre from goodnesse If therefore this be all the goodnesse you ascribe to Christes prayer you expresly contradict Chrysostome who maketh it proper and lawfull for mans nature in the best remembrance to dislike and shun death so we still submit our selues to Gods will as Christ did not to like that which is against nature but patiently to suffer that which is according to Gods will and counsell towards vs. s Defenc. pag. 125. li. So did Dauid desire the life of his childe it was contrarie to Gods will one way as the euent shewed for the childe died yet he prayed well and rightly according to Gods will in natures affection seeing he knew not Gods secret will to the contrarie Dauid had pâ—…etie and charitie to leade him to pray for his childes life though the Prophet denounced vnto him that the childe should die Gods threats doe differ from his iudgements in this that his iudgements are irreuocable when they are once executed and his wrath is placable when he threatneth since he neuer particularly threatneth but when we are impenitent God willed Ionas to preach that after t Ionah 3. fortie dayes Nineueh should be ouerthrowen and yet was God neither inconstant in his will nor the Prophet false in his message when vpon repentance God spared them The Kings Proclamation was good diuinitie * Ibidem Let euery man turne from his euill way and who can tell whether God will turne from his fierce wrath that we perish not So sayd Dauid u 2. Sam. 12. Who can tell whether God will haue mercie on me that the childe may liue Gods secret will as we cannot know so doe we not resist so long as we seeke by repentance to preuent or auert his plagues but what is this to Christs case was he ignorant of Gods will which he so often foretold his Disciples what where and of whom he should suffer as also the cause why x Matth. 20. to giue his life a redemption for manie y Defenc. pag. 125. li. 16. Christs sudden not remembring Gods particular will by reason of his fearefull astonishment was all one as if he had not knowâ—…n it at all It is apparently false that Christ did not remember Gods particular will touching his death for he added if it were possible Christes prayer not repugâ—…ant to the will of God before his praier and stâ—…ll submitted his will to the will of God which if he had not remembred hee could not haue done The fearefull astonishment of which you dreame as if it still continued euen in his praiers is a needlesse inâ—…ention of such as seeke to make some pretence for their hell paines Christs praiers were earnest and often repeated and as the Apostle noteth he was heard in them and therefore they were not repugnant to the will of God howsoeuer he desired the cup that is the sharpnesse thereof to be mitigated and proportioned to his strength and patience which accordingly God his Father performed z Defenc. pag. 125. li. 25. You say I am captious against Christ in not supplying one Euangelist with another For so Christs desire will appeare to be but conditionall therefore not contrarie
time when he shall come to Iudge the quicke and the dead but now s Iohn 3. God sent not his Sonne to condemne the world but that the world through him might be saued t Ela. 42. A bruized Reede saith the Prophet shall he not breake and smoking flaxe shall he not quench So farre was he at this time from doing or delighting in any violence how certaine soeuer you make your selfe of his ioyfulnesse to see destruction executed on that Nation The words of Dauid that u Psal. 58. the Righteous shall retoyce when he seeth the vengeance licence no man to desire vengeance but to expect Gods time whose will we pray may be done and concerne those enemies onely that with implâ—…cable malice seeke the vtter ruine of the godly In which case the deliuerance of the faithfull being ioyned with vengeance on the wicked God will haue his me cies towards vs magnified though it be mixed with the destruction of the wicked Otherwise Christ hath commanded vs to x Matth. 5. loue our enemies to blesse them which curse vs to pray for them which persecute vs so that we may be the children of our Father which is in heauen But you haue found a Foxe or a ferne brake because it was said Let this Cup passe from me and not from them What if I answere you with Ierom Christ said not y 〈◊〉 in Mat Cap. 26. Let the cup passe from me but 〈◊〉 this cuppe passe that is of the people of the lewes which can haue no excuse of ignorâ—…nce if they killme since they haue the Law and the Prophets which daily feretell of me This Christ requesteth not as fearing to suffer but in 〈◊〉 towards the former People that he might not drinke the 〈◊〉 by them And with Ambrose z 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 10 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 22 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Therefore Christ said take this cuppe from me not because the Sonne of God seared death but for that he would not haue them though cuill to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pe pernicious to them which should be healthfull to all And with 〈◊〉 a 〈◊〉 â—…n 〈◊〉 tract 35. For those then whom he would not haue perish by his Passion he said Father if it be possible let this cuppe passe from me that both the world might be saued and the 〈◊〉 not perish in his Passion And with b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ca. 〈◊〉 Bede who exactly followeth Ieroms words You will reply there is no truth in them but the more you vse such answeres the more pride and lesse wit you shew to thinke that all men 〈◊〉 absurd besides your selfe when you can seant speake one word touching vour new found faith without a sensible absurditie c Defenc pag. 94. li. 31. Your next supposed cause 〈◊〉 towards men containeth three 〈◊〉 causes here First for the 〈◊〉 of the Iewes Secondly for the dispersion of his Church Thirdly his zealous griefe generally for the sins of the world All these 〈◊〉 alwaies in Christ and The second cause 〈◊〉 to Christs agonte caused no 〈◊〉 alwaies heauines in him yet no more then a godly heauenly mind could and would 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 digest and beare It is well that of your 〈◊〉 at last you see these six causes may be reuoked and referred to the two gene 〈◊〉 roots whence I said Christs agonie might proceed and so no reason but a meere desire to 〈◊〉 did lead you to demonstrate my disagreements by one two 〈◊〉 six which vpon your better aduise your selfe can reconciie within the space of a lease For as these three are contained in Christes compassion towards men or rather did procced from the astection of his loue to man so the rest are as easily reduced to Christs submission yeldâ—…d in pictie vnto God or to the same profession of charitie towards man or to both Touching the e three you grant they were alwaies in Christ â—…nd caused no doubt alwaies an heaâ—…ines in him but moderate such as a godly minde might cheerefully digest First then how come you so sodainly to fling of your former Resolution made not fifteene lines before that certainly Christ would haue greatly 〈◊〉 to see the execution of Gods deserued iustice on the Iewes would Christ both certainly and greatly haue reioiced to see the destruction of that people and citie and yet the foresight therof caused no doubt alwayes heauines in him These are not your contrarieties but concordance wherein you rightly agree with your selfe that neuer vsein your assertions to make one piece agree with an other How much Christ might grieue at those things we shall presently examine but that he grieued more at this time now in the garden for these respects then at any other time before you doe not grant because you see no reason for it Of Christs affections neither I can yeeld nor you may aske the reason they were voluntarie and rose within him when his will gaue place vnto them He saw Ierusalem often and knew of her desolation from the beginning Why wept he then but once ouer her why did he not the like for other Cities wherein the Iewes dwelt can you tell he was often tempted by the Pharisees and still saw the hardnes of their harts Why did he then but once that the Scripture reporteth behold them with d Mar. 3. anger and griefe for their obstinacie his passion he alwaies remembred and often fore told why then was he troubled with the thought thereof but once that we read Athanasius giueth this answere e Athanasius de incarnat Christi Now is my soule troubled this now was when he himselfe would Damascene f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ca 23. insisteth on the same words and maketh the rule generall that g 〈◊〉 li. 3. ca 20. 〈◊〉 affections and infirmities in Christ neuer preuented his will because nothing in him was forced but all voluntarie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. he hungrea when he would he 〈◊〉 when he would he feared when hewould and died when he would Saint Austen obserueth the same h 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 49. Turbaris tu nolens Turbatus est Christus quia 〈◊〉 Thou art troubled against thy will Christ was troubled because he would He hungred it is true but because he would he slept it is true but because he would he sorrowed it is true but because he would he died it is true but because he would In illius potestate erat sic vel sic 〈◊〉 velnen affici it was in his power to be so or so affected or not affected The reason which he giueth is sound and the Scripture on which he buildeth is plaine i Ibidem Quiâ—… enim 〈◊〉 posset nisi 〈◊〉 ipse turbare vbi summa potestas est secundum voluntâ—…tis 〈◊〉 turbatur 〈◊〉 Who could trouble him besides himselfe where 〈◊〉 power is there 〈◊〉 is troubled according to the 〈◊〉 of the will And so the Scripture noteth k Iohn 11.