But you misse M. Iewel What soeuer God commaundeth but for a time it is his worde And whatsoeuer his ministers do commaunde as profitable to the Church for the present tyme it is Gods word as him selfe said Luke 10. He that heareth you heareth me He that despiseth you despiseth me How be it S. Basil speaketh not altogether as you reporte He maketh not al Traditions equal with Gods worde simply and in al respectes he speaketh of three thinges of Doctrines written and doctrines vnwritte and of customes for which we haue no scripture Of the vnwritten doctrines it is that he speaketh not of customes that they haue equal force with the written doctrines ad pietatem to traine vs to godlinesse As touching vnwritten customes many thinke your example false For we were neuer forbidden to kneele at al vpon the Sonnedaie but at our Lordes prayer whiles it is said at Masse time as some interprete it At which time al the Popes Chappel to this daie vseth to stand vp and not to kneele Iewel Pag. 195. The reste of S. Basiles traditions stand in hallovving of vvater and blessing of oile c. Harding Those Traditions which belong to Sacramentes as that of the blessing of the oile doth maie neuer be changed Those that are mere ceremonial maie be abrogated by custom as the thrife dipping of the childe or of any other that is to be baptized and such others the like which neither S. Basile nor we euer made equal with Goddes expresse worde Iewel Pag. 196. S. Paule saying holde the Traditions which yee haue receiued 2. Thess 2. either by epistle or by worde calleth them traditions although thei vvere conteined in his epistles and deliuered to them by vvriting Harding And also though they were not deliuered by writing You leaue out halfe For he saith by writing or per sermonem that is to saie by speache The writing contemed wordes ergo the speache which differeth from writing were wordes without writing Iewel Pag. 196. VVhereas S. Paule vvil haue his ovvne thinges to be kepte Hieron in 2. Thes 2. he vvil haue no straunge thinges thereto to be added Harding We adde no strange thinges but beleeue that S. Paule preached and deliuered the Sacrifice of the Masse vnto the faithful people so plainly in practise and wordes that the writing was not hable to shew his minde so fully in that behalfe And by Tradition we haue as wel that which he taught by practise as that which he preached whether he wrote it or no. Iewel Pag. 197. S. Paule by the vvord Traditions meant not Ceremonies or certaine secrete vnknovven Verities â— Cor. 15. but the substance of the Gospel I haue deliuered vnto you that Christ died for our sinnes saieth he Harding M. Ievvels Secret vnknovven verities He meant not only Ceremonies I graunt And as for secrete vnknowen verities we haue no suche excepte you are so mad as to cal praying for the dead a secrete vnknowen veritie which hath euen benne knowen to al menne yea wemen and children in the Church of God And that custome of praying for the dead S. Paule did teach as wel as al other the Apostles as Tradition telleth vs Homil. 69. Ad populuÌ„ AntiocheÌ„ witnessed also by S. Chrysostom So that as the whole Gospel commeth vnto vs by Tradition so doth Masse Dirige Holy water Lenten fast and others Iewel Pag. 197. Epist â—6 S. Augustine findeth is not appointed by Christ or the Apostles vvhat daies vve ought to fast Harding Lenten fast is not founde in the Apostles vvritinges but in the Apostolike Traditions Aug. in epist 86. You kepe your kinde in alleging thinges out of their kinde S. Augustine there speaketh of that which is to be founde in the writinges of the Apostles For thus it went before In Apostolicis literis in the Apostolike writinges There he findeth not the Lenten fast But he findeth it in the Apostolike TraditioÌ„s saying in the very same epistle In his rebus de quibus nihil certâ— statuit scriptura diuina mos populi Dei vel instituta maioruÌ„ prolege â—edendasunt Looke in what thinges the holy Scripture hath determined nothing of certaintie the custome of the people of God oâ— the ordinauÌ„ces of the Forfathers Custom is a lavve are to be kept as a lawe Marke that the custom of Gods people must be â—olden for a law prolege for a law M. Iewel It is the epistle alleged by you that saith TraditioÌ„s and customes must be kept for a law And his owne wordes another where are Vt quadraginta illi dies ante Pascha obseruetur Augustin epist 118. Ecclesiae consuetudo roborauit That the fortie daies before Easter should be kepte the custome of the Church hath confirmed and strengthened it And generally he saith Quae non scripta sed tradita custodimus quae quidem toto terrarum orbe obseruantur dantur intelligi vel ab ipsis Apostolis vel plenarijs Concilijs commendata atque statuta retineri Looke what thinges we kepe not being written but deliuered by tradition which are obserued al the worlde ouer thereof intelligence is geuen vs that they be kepte in vre as thinges coÌ„mended vnto vs and ordeined either by the Apostles them selues or by the General Councelles Nowe seing the Faste of the fortie dayes was and is generally kepte in the Churche and yet not firste commaunded by any general Councel it remaineth according to S. Augustines rule that it was instituted of the Apostles And S. Hierome by name saith it came from the Apostles In fidei regula discrepamus We differ in the rule of faith from the Montanistes For they denie three persons confounding them into one They accompt the second Marriages as il as Aduoutrie and make three Lenten fastes Nos vnam Quadragesimam secundùm traditionem Apostolorum toto anno tempore nobis congruo ieiunamus We faste at a time conuenient one Lent in the whole yere according to the Traditions of the Apostles Iewel 199. M. Harding saith Persona Ingenitus Homousion are not founde in the scriptures but the sense and meaning is found there Harding So is the sense and meaning of Masse of transubstantiation and of praying to Saintes founde there Iewel Pag. 200. Gennadius saith the perpetual Virginitie of our Ladie is proued sufficiently by scriptures In catalogo Harding Gennadiin catal in Heluid This is a lowde lie Trie it out who wil Gennadius saith not so but only that S. Hieromes booke which he wrote against Heluidius affirming that our Ladie bare children after she had borne Christ was sufficiently fournished with * Documentes testimonies of the Scriptures For although it be not expressely written that she was a perpetual Virgin yet the faith thereof is most agreable to the Scriptures and most certaine in Tradition But were not the Tradition so strong the Scriptures certainely might be doubtful ynough in that behalfe Iewel Pag. 200. Of God and
Defenders require vs to follow the example of S. Irenaeus in that he as they saie appealed oftentimes to the oldest Churches whiche had benne nearest to Christes time and whiche it was hard to beleeue that they had erred thus I saie Confut. â—â—4 a. Ye would seeme to be faine that we folowed the aduise of S. Irenaeus We are content with al our hartes And with Irenaeus we appeale to that Tradition Irenaeus lib 3. ca. 8. which is from the Apostles which as he saith is kepte in the Churches by Priestes that succeded them With Irenaeus leauing other Churches whose succession of Bishopes it were a long worke to reherse we require to haue recourse for trial of our Faith to the tradition of doctrine of the Romaine Churche which he termeth greatest oldest Idem lib. 3. cap. 3. best knowen to al founded and set vp by the twoo most glorious Apostles Peter and Paule We appeale to the Faith of that Churche taught abrode in the worlde and by successions of Bishoppes brought downe vnto vs. For to this Churche saith Irenaeus must al the Church of Christe repaire where so euer it be for that it is the chiefe of al and for that the tradition of the true doctrine whiche the Apostles lefte behind them is there faithfully kepte Wherfore if ye would after the counsel of Irenaeus resorte to Rome for decision of the controuersies that be betwixte you and vs and would them to be tried by that sense of doctrine whiche hath continued by Successions of Bishoppes euen from Peter to Pius the fourth now Pope and would stand to the auctoritie of that See Apostolike al strife were ended we should be at accorde But we haue litle hope that ye wil folowe this godly counsel of S. Irenaeus that blessed Martyr whose bodie your brethren the Huguenotes of Fraunce villanously burned at Lions Anno Domini 1562. after it had rested there thirteen hundred yeres and more In al these wordes as thou seest reader I say not as M. Iewel beareth her Maiestie in hande I doo that we must learne to know the wil of God only at the Popes hande But I declare whether we may most safely resorte for decision of the controuersies that be betwixte vs and the Protestantes Whereunto M. Iewel hath not yet answered ne neuer shal be hable to answere though in the Defence he haue shuffled together a great heape of allegations nothing perteining to the present purpose as his custome is to doo and a great parte of my confutation there he hath cut of M. Iewel cutteth and mangleth the Confutation in infinite places leauing out wordes of greatest vveight and therby hath fowly mangled the same as for his aduantage he hath done in infinite places leauing out the matters whereunto he had not what reasonably to answere See the place Reader Defence pag. 701. and thou shalt finde my worde true Item there Iewel That in the Popes onely holinesse standeth the vnitie and safetie of the Churche Confut. 204. b. Harding If I had so said in a right sense it might wel be allowed Howbeit thus I said Confut. 204. b. As Christe gaue vnto S. Peter and his Successours for the benefite of his Churche a supreme auctoritie and power so for the same Churches sake for whose loue he deliuered him selfe to death by petition made to his Father he obteined for him and his Successours Ioan. 14. Luc. 22. the Priuiledge of this Supreme and most excellent Grace that their Faith should neuer faile In consideration of whiche singular priuiledge obteined by Christe and graunted to the See Apostolike and to none other S. Gregorie rebuketh Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople so much as one that presumptuously vsurped that new name of vniuersal Bishop against the Statutes of the Gospel and against the decrees of the Canons To coÌ„clude if either S. Gregorie or any other maÌ„ should saie that the Churche dependeth vpon one man he might seeme to saie truthe meaning rightly and that not alone nor without good authoritie For such a saying we finde vttered by S. Hierome Hieron Contra Luciferian The saftie of the Churche saith he dependeth vpon the dignitie of the highest priest who if he haue not auctoritie peerlesse and aboue al other there wil be so many schismes in the Churche as there be priestes Which peerlesse auctoritie aboue al other as S. Hierome in that place doth attribute vnto the Bishop of euery Dioces directly so consequently to Peters successour to whom it was said Feed my shepe Iohan. 21. For by what reason in ech Dioces it behoueth one priest to be highest ouer other Priestes by the same and in like proportioÌ„ no lesse it behoueth that in the whole Church one Bishop be highest ouer other Bishoppes I meane for auoiding of schismes This reason is not ne can not of M. Iewel be auoided Of other thinges impertinent he bringeth vs great stoare out of other men in the Defence Defence pag. 452. but to this very reason wherein standeth the pointe touching the maintenance and preseruation of vnitie he saith nothing Item there Iewel That vvho so euer is diuided from the Pope must be iudged an Heretique and that vvithout the obedience of him there is no hope of Saluation Confut. 306. b. Harding Who so euer is diuided not onely from the Pope but also from any other Catholique Bishoppe in faith ought to be iudged an Heretique As touching obedience Iohan. 21. whereas by Christe he is commaunded to Feede his Lambes and his sheepe and thereby hath commission to gouerne them how can he be saued from the rauening woolues who through disobedience refuseth to come into that Folde and to be fedde and guided of that high Pastor I confesse that in certaine cases besides faith a man may disobey the Pope and yet not be remoued from all hope of saluation My wordes for whiche you make so muche a doo are these vttered vpon occasion of your Apologie Confut. fol. 306. b. Ye put vs in minde to consider how that your selues are those priuate hil Aulters and darke groues For ye be they that stoppe the people from the commoÌ„ Temple of Christendom the Catholique Church out of which is no saluation the head whereof sitteth in Peters Chaire at Rome Item there Iewel And yet as though it vvere not sufficient for him so vainely to sooth a man in open errours he telleth vs also sadly and in good earnest that the same Bishop is not onely a Bishop but also a kinge Confut. fol. 80. a. 305. b. Harding Neither haue I in any place soothed the Pope in open Errours but haue graunted that certaine Popes had their Errours either before they were called to that roume or also afterwarde holding them priuately and as priuate Doctours That the Pope erreth how is it denied But that by any publique decree geuen out to be holden and obserued of the Churche they euer mainteined or gaue assent or
yet this man had he ben in Italie and seene what is there continually donne howe the Exorcistes doo in deede cast forth Deuilles in manner weekely as diuers of our owne Contriemenne that haue ben present can reporte he would for very shame if any were in him haue kepte in that negatiue Verely I feare me he wil one daie procede further and vtterly denie the Order of Bisshops to be necessarie bicause he can franckely say that the Bishops preache not his lustly Caluinian Gospel Yet I trowe he wil be good maister to the Superintendentes of England that be of his owne profession of whom some preache not and some haue not the learning to preache nor yet to tel a wise tale The Apologie Cap. 3. Diuis 2. Pag. 98. Yet notvvithstanding vvee say that there neither is nor can be any one man vvhiche may haue the vvhole superioritie in this Vniuersal state for that Christe is euer presente to assiste his Churche and needeth not any man to supplie his roome as his onely heire to al his Substance and that there can be no one mortal creature vvhiche is hable to comprehende or conceiue in his minde the vniuersal Churche that is to vvit al the partes of the vvorlde muche lesse hable rightly and duely to put them in Order and to Gouerne them Iewel Pag. 98. M. Hardinges ansvvere hereto is too long and tedious Harding I dare wel saie it is too tedious to you and glad would you be to be rid of it if you wist whiche waie Acknowlege the truthe M. Iewel returne from your errour leaue of scoffing suppresse singularitie deliâ—e not in the vaine praises that your ignorant fauourers geue you feare God thinke you can not continue in in this Brauerie alwaies then shal you finde liking in my answere and thinke it nothing to tedious Certaine it is the mater is not so sclenderly to be answered Iewel Pag. 98. VVhere vve saie no one mortal man is hable to vvealde the burthen of the vvhole Churche of God M. Harding ansvvereth vvhere any thing is in deed there vvhether it maie be or not to discusse it is needelesse Therefore vvhether any one man can be superiour and Chiefe ouer the vvhole Church vve leaue to speake that so it is thus vve prooue Euery parishe hath his seueral vicare or person and euerie Diocesâ— his ovvne Bisshâ—ppe Ergo vvhat reason is it there be one Chiefe Gouernour of the vvhole Christen people c. His firste reason concludeth very vveakely Euerie Parishe is Gouerned by one Vicare or Personne and euerie Diocese is gouerned by one seueral Bishop Ergo there is one vniuersal Gouernour ouer the vvhole Churche of Christe Here is neither order in reason nor sequele in nature Therefore of any man vvould denie the argument M. Harding vvere â—â—uer hable to make it good Harding The iustification of this Argument The .10 Chapt. Yeas forsooth the Argument may be proued very wel by this axioma or dignitie in nature vpon the which the Argument is grounded That the whole ought to be gouerned by one general Head whose seueral partes can not be gouerned without seueral Heades If your leisure serue you you may nowe traine the Argument that I was neuer hable to make good as you say for lacke of order in reason and sequele in nature if ye altogether haue not forgotten your Logique whereof you set vs forth so often crakes into the very forme of a good and perfite Syllogisme If your courage then serue you to denie the Argument you shal but disgrace your selfe in denying the groundes of that arte wherein you haue placed a great parte of your glorie and put your selfe to paine to make vs some newe Logique of your owne that menne may trust too Searche diligently the cause without scoffing and wrangling why the seueral partes of the vniuersal Churche Parishes Dioceses prouinces are not hable to be kepte in any good order without seueral heades the selfe cause shal infourme you that the vniuersal Churche may muche lesse be kepte in order without one general Head Render what causes you can M. Iewel you shal neuer be hable to auoide it before any learned companie but that the one shal folowe of the selfe same causes as wel as the other Whereas you runne to disprooue myne argument by making the like of euerie kingdome ruled by one Prince inferring Ergo there ought to be one vniuersal Prince to rule ouer the whole worlde I see no such absurditie in the conclusion of this Argument the seueral rightes of Princes reserued vntouched but that if you should talke with Aristotle that great Philosopher you should see good cause to graunt it If there were but one good Monarke in the whole worlde would there not be fewer broilles and warres in the worlde then nowe we feele Perhappes when the matter is wel weighed it may seeme the worlde was neuer in better state then when it was gouerned by one good Emperour Let a iuste Viewe be taken of Constantines time the Great Yet it must be confessed there is great difference betwixt the Ciuile gouernemeÌ„t of Princes who maie be permitted to rule their seueral Dominions without one general Head bicause they haue to do but with thinges of the worlde as with earthly goodes landes and such other thinges which may receiue diuers kindes of rule without danger of Soules and the Ecclesiastical gouernment whose chiefe respect is to keepe vnitie of Faith in the bonde of peace which may not receiue any alteration without great danger to our Saluation Therefore there is greater cause to haue one general Head or Supreme gouernour without whom this vnitie can not be kepte any long time Hiero. aduersus Iouinianum lib. 1. as S. Hierome witnesseth to rule the whole Churche in matters of Saluation then to haue one Head to rule ouer the whole worlde in wordely matters To your other scorneful Argument of one general Shepehearde to be hadde ouer al the flockes of 〈◊〉 throughout the whole world I wil frame answere when you can prooue that God hath as great care to bring al the shepe in the worlde to the selfe same glorie of life euerlasting as he hath to bring menne or that he hath appointed them any one general ende the whiche they can not atteine without the hauing of one general shepeherd to gouerne the whole kinde But S. Paule putteth al suche fonde reasons to silence by this question where he asketh 1. Cor. 9. Nunquid de bobus cura est Deo Hath God any such special care of kine and Oxen as he hath of menne Put vp such shepeherdes pipes for shame M. Iewel and leaue to piper vs vp such trifles If you minde thus to continue euery ignorant Reader at length shal espie what litle good stuffe ye vtter I made not these reasons for that menne should take them for very precise Demonstrations or for that euery one of them alone had ful force to conclude as though the whole weight
you least vs in this case as Iudge and supreme Gouernour to ende al Dissensions and to condemne perilous Heresies They of Germanie take them selues to be as good menne and to knowe the Truth as wel if no better as either D. Parker of Canturburie or M. Grindal of London or Bacheler Yonge of Yorke or any of the other wiued Priestes Monkes and Friers yea as M Iew. of Sarisburie him selfe Ye of England wil not yelde to them of Saxonie they of Lifeland Swethen Denmarke Pole Scotland Zuitzerland and Geneua wil not yelde them selues subiectes to either of you both And yet euery one of these sundry congregations wil preach stil the doctrine of their owne secte one coÌ„trarie to an other How now M. Iewel Let vs heare what wise tale you caÌ„ tel vs by whose authoritie we maie come from these great Dissensions and manifold Schismes to Vnitie Intreatie can not doo it Colloquies meetinges and Conferences of the learned of eche secte can not bring it to passe The more it hath ben attempted the worse ende hath euer benne concluded Haue not you leaft vs then a beautiful Church a blessed coÌ„panie of Ministers that wil not come to Order Yea leauing vs without any lawful authoritie of one Head to reduce vs to vnitie do you not leaue vs in endlesse strifes and indeterminable broilles Be we not much bound vnto you Were not the worlde wise and wel aduised to forsake al old orders and to put coÌ„fidence in this your new deuise The same selfe S. Chrysostome whom you allege to haue al ruled by the Scriptures sawe a litle farther then you see M. Iewel when he said that the charge of the whole worlde was committed to Peter Chrysost in Matth. Homil. 55. Ambros in cap. 24. Luca. Theodoritus in Epist ad Renatum Cyprianus lib. 3. Epist 13. So did S. Ambrose when he named Peter and by a consequent Peters Successour the Vicare of Christes loue So did Theodoritâ—â— when he said the See of Rome holdeth the sterne and hath the gouernment of the Churches of the whole worlde You allege S. Cyprian though farre otherwise then he writeth and that out of that epistle in whiche he willeth Stephanus the Pope to depose Martianus the Bishop of Arles in Fraunce for Heresie and put an other in his roome whiche argueth a supreme authoritie of gouernment in the Pope you allege him I saie as if he said that therefore there are many Bishoppes in the Churche that if one fal into heresie the rest maie helpe But what if there be as many Heretique Bishoppes as there be Catholique as it hath commonly benne seene in the East Churche What if the Heretiques being more learned wil not yeelde Cyprian ad Cornelium lib. 1. Epist. 3. S. Cyprian in an other place spareth not to tel you that Schismes aÌ„d heresies rise of no other cause then for that the whole brotherhed that is to saie the companie of Christian people Obeye not one high Prieste that is in Christes steede Whiche saying by what reason it taketh place in euery seueral Dioces by the same it is to be vnderstanded in respecte of the whole worlde For as Heresies rise of disobedience of the people to their Bishop so they rise no lesse yea rather muche more as experience teacheth of the disobedience of the Bishoppes them selues if they wil not be vnder one Head And as the people are not kepte in vnitie but by being vnder one Bishop so neither the Bishoppes excepte they be likewise vnder one chiefe Head and ruler who is the Successour of Peter to whom as louing Christe more then the reste whiche the Scripture sheweth the charge not onely of the lambes and weaker sheepe but also of the great and stronger sheepe was committed as S. Ambrose before alleged hath wel noted Whether S. Peter were faulte worthy when S. Paule reproued him as you tel vs without proufe Defence pag. 103. it remaineth in question betwixte S. Augustine and S. Hierome But if there were any thing worthy of reprehension in S. Peter that S. Paule sawe there was great humilitie in S. Peter to agnise the faulte by the warning of his inferiour Likewise there was in S. Victor the Pope in that he would geue eare vnto S. Ireneus Of that S. Peters humilitie thus speaketh S. Cyprian in his epistle to Quintus whiche is also rehearsed of S Augustine August li. 2. de Baptis cont Donatist cap. 1. Nam nec Petrus quem primum Dominus elegit super quem aedificauit Ecclesiam suam cùm secum Paulus de Circumcisione disceptaret postmodum vendicauit sibi aliquid insolenter aut arroganter assumpsit vt diceret se primatum tenere obtemperari à nouellis posteris sibi potius debere Example of humilitie to S. Peter For neither Peter whom our Lorde chose to be first and vppon whom he builded his Churche at what time Paule reasoned with him about Circumcision by and by chalenged any thing proudly vnto him selfe or stately tooke ought vpon him as to saie that he helde the Primacie or the chiefe rule ouer al and that suche as came newly to the Faith and were his aftercommers ought rather to obeie him But this kinde of humilitie is not found emong Heretiques The more courteously they be warned of their Heresie the more stubborne they growe and staie not so but doo the vttermost they can to make their parties as good as the Catholiques as by sundry olde heretiques to them that haue reade the Trâ—gedies by them plaied in the Churche is most euident How now M. Iewel What remedie Shal we resorte in this case to any Head that hath General authoritie or stand stil iarring and snarling the one at the other without alremedie For ought I see you are like to leaue vs stil in the briers Touching your gloses of the Canon Lawe they maie perhappes one daie if it shal be thought worth the labour be altogether answered in some one seueral treatise where doubtelesse it shal appeare to your smal estimation with what beggerly ragges and clowtes you haue patched together your clowted cloke Iewel Pag. 104. For the rest M. Harding saith One King is hable to rule one Kingdome Ergo one Pope is hable to rule the vvhole Churche Harding My talke runneth not so bare as you rehearse it your grace is alwaie to reporte worse then you finde I said that a King or Queene in gouerning a Realme ruleth not al in his owne person but doth many thinges by his Deputees and Officers Euen so why maie not the Pope in al Christendome take order by other fitte menne hauing from him commission notwithstanding his person be not present For very shame M. Iewel make not your Aduersaries tale worse then you finde it For by that you must muche discredite your cause Iewel Pag. 104. Of the gouernment of Princes vve haue daielie practise But of Popes that euer vsed this vniuersal Dominion ouer the vvhole Church of
from his Prince the child from his father and the wife from her husband What is it then wherein your Predecessours if they had now liued and had seene it would not haue benne so wilful as we are They should haue seene in you Diuisions sectes factions pride wantonesse fleshly libertie crueltie murders treasons rebellions Churche robbinges and to be short al impietie and contempte of God Pride accompained with malice couetise and lecherie was the foundation A foule mouthed Frier as euer liued on the earth and a Nūne incestuously coupled together was the building that rose vp of your doctrine which to this daie goeth forward with like increase And yet if your Predecessours had seene that which we see they would forsooth haue ben astonned to see the heauenly fruites which these men bring foorth Iewel To be short vve succede the bisshops that haue ben before our dayes vve are elected consecrated confirmed and admitted as they vvere Harding Here is no lye at al. That I may speake of no other difference the Bishops whom you succeede were al confirmed by the bishop of Rome and so is none of you Iewel .. If they vvere deceiued in any thing vve succede them in the place but not in errour Harding By their place is meant specially their doctrine and beleefe which seing you haue not you are not their successour no more then Paulus Samosatenus the heretique was the Successour in S. Peters chaire in Antioche no more then Gregorius the Arian was S. Markes successour in Alexandria no more then al the Bisshops of Christendome are to be accompted the successours of the Heathnish Priestes which in the same Cities before worshipped Idols It is the Doctrine and place together which maketh the Succession and not the walles of the towne Churche or house alone Iewel They vvere our Predecessours but not the rules and standardes of our faith Harding As long as they remained in that vnitie of Doctrine which they receiued of the Apostles or of the Apostolike Churches as Tertullian doth wel shew so long they are presidentes and their continual Succession is a good rule and standard of our faith For they are pillers of the Church the Successours of the Apostles Luc. 10. whom he that heareth heareth Christ Now when those that breake the Vnitie which was in the Church before come to sit in any bishops Chaire they in deede are no presidentes no rules nor standardes of our Faith bicause the Apostle biddeth vs obserue and beware of them 2. Thess 3. that walke inordinatly and make dissensions For the Church of God hath no suche custome to striue 1. Cor. 11. and to resiste at once al the Bishops of the whole Church as Martin Luther did Iewel 131. Or rather to set apart al comparison of persons the doctrine of Christ this day M. Harding succedeth your doctrine as the daye succedeth the night as the light succedeth darknesse and as the truth succedeth errour Harding VVhat is the daie vvhat is the night in M. Ievvelles iudgement That is to say your doinges and proceedinges are the daye the light and the truth but the Catholique faith whiche we teache and al our predecessours in al the worlde haue euer taught is the night the darkenesse and errour But sir if your doctrine be daye or light and ours night or darkenesse how chaunceth it that our doctrine was euer openly seene in the whole worlde from the Apostles time vnto these daies in so many Bishoppes throughout al nations teaching al one thing and yours was not sene by your owne confession for nine hundred yeres together This was a long night pardy M. Iewel Is it the nature of the light not to be seene Who sawe not our Altars our external Priestes and our Sacrifice of the body and bloud of Christ in the whole world from East to Weast Malac. 1. as Malachias prophecied and the euent shewed But your no Aulters your no external Priestes and your no sacrificing of Christes body briefly the Imaginatiue face of your Negatiue Religion or rather of your no Religion who could see before that now of late ye pulled downe our Aulters to shewe howe ye had no Aulters and before violently ye bannished our Priestes and draue them out of their Churches to shewe howe ye had no Priestes and denied Christes Real Presence to shew how ye had no Sacrifice Our Munkes and Friers from S. Ihon Baptistes dayes and from the tyme of those that liued a very holy life in Egypte frō the time of S. Marke the Euangeliste vnto the time of S. Basil in the East of S. Augustine S. Benedicte S. Frauncis and S. Dominike in the Weast had replenished Christendom with Cloisters and Monasteries to those our Monkes I say al the worlde beareth witnesse But your no monkes Renegates and Apostates liued in Turkie or in Hel for in the landes of Christendom no such doctrine shined none suche was heard of whiche should auouche that it is not lawful by Gods grace to make a vowe that a man wil renounce the riches and pleasures of the worlde and liue continently vnder the obedience of a spiritual Father If your doctrine be the light and the daye howe commeth it to passe that not so muche as one Churche or chappel in the whole earth can be named where before these fiftie yeres it was vnlawful to occupie holy Chrisme in bishopping of childerne or to saye Masse or to teache the seuen Sacramentes to praie for the dead to celebrate the Churche Seruice in the Latine tongue to desire the Apostles Martyrs and the other Saintes to praie for vs al which thinges now you accompt for vnlawful Can the light be so darkened that it should be vnknowen vnto you whether ye had any auncestours at al or no We can if neede were set forth a rolle of our Pastours and Bishops from this daye vpward vnto S. Peters time in such sort as you shal name no one time of whiche we are not hable to saye vnto you these many prelates and Pastours were knowen to preache Christes gospel at once in diuers nations Marcke M. Iewel what I saye to you and consider of it wel For herein your vtter Confusion appeareth that ye are not hable to bring the continuance of your doctrine vp vnto S. Peters time without interruption albeit you should be bounde to name for euery fiftie yeres in Order but one man in the whole worlde at once Thinke of it with al your witte and geue me an instance There are since Christes time fifteen hūdred yeres passed Geue me for euery hundred yeres two Catholike men one liuing after the other whom you may iustifie to haue ben of your faith holding that doctrine whiche you holde and so geue me in al but thirtye menne liuing and knowen to haue lyued eche of them about fiftie yeres one after the other and for my part I wil release you of your bond of subscription Such a lightsome Churche ye haue that
Pope Ihon 22. vvas reproued by Gerson and by the schoole of Paris for an Heretike Harding Of Pope Iohn 22. his errour see my Ansvvere to M. Iewels Vievv of his vntruthes before fol. 64. He was reproued for an opinion M. Iewel which he helde before he was Pope many yeres what the opinion was I haue declared before at large to whiche place I referre the reader for a ful answer But when being Pope he would haue confirmed that his wrong opinion that the soules of the iuste lacked the sight of God face to face vntil the daye of Iudgement God tooke him out of this life that al the world might know come who shal to sit in Peters chaier he shal neuer decree any Heresie to be mainteined as the Faith How be it it was not to be accoumpted heresie at that time as yet not being determined by the Church and semed to haue ben holden of certaine olde doctours of the Church as is before said The miracle of God in staying that man from confirming that errour by authentike decree in open Synode ought more to moue you if you were a man whom Gods workes could moue then his priuate erroneous opinion which hurteth no man but him selfe Iewel 132. Petrarcha saith Rome is a sanctuarie of al heresies Harding I neither beleue you nor him I am sure that men of greater authoritie then euer that ryming Poet was of hath said the contrarie But it may be right wel that your sclaunderous penne belieth Petrarcha Ambrosius in Epist ad papam Siricium Cyprian Lib. 1. Epist 3. In Math. cap. 16. Once you name not where he saith it But what so euer Petracha saie S. Ambrose whom we more regarde said that the Church of Rome kepeth alwaies the Apostolike beleefe whole and vndiminished And S. Cyprian saith that infidelitie can not haue accesse vnto the Romaines Iewel Lyra saith that many Popes haue fallen into heresies Harding He saith many as wel princes as chiefe priestes haue falleÌ„ from the faith but not that many haue decreed heresies as to be followed and embraced of others But how truly he saith that many haue fallen from the faith let him answer to it For I find not those many nor yet M. Iew. him selfe as diligeÌ„t as he is about it Wherin Lyra maie helpe vs for opening the text of holy Scriptures we gladly vse him as for his auctoritie specially touching antiquitie being so late a writer you know how litle weight his worde beareth in the iudgement of the learned And how is it come to passe that Nicolaus de Lyra is now so good an author with you M. Iewel who being a professed Frier in his life time followed the faith of the Romaine Church and beleued the Bishoppe of Rome to be the chiefe Bishop of Christendom and the Romaine Churche to be the head of al Churches Iewel 132. You knovv that Pope Hildebrand as he vvas charged by the Councel of Brixta vvas an aduouterer a Chuâ—che robber a periuâ—ed man a mankiller a Sorcerer and a renegate of the faith Harding I know that you lye I may saie it sauing my charitie rather then your worship For Pope Gregorie the seueÌ„th otherwise before he was Pope called Hildebrandus was a very holy man as Marianus Scotus doth witnesse who liued in the same time Marianus Srotus in Chronicis Pope HildebraÌ„dus persecuted and accused by HeÌ„rie the Emperour Marianus Scotus of Pohe Hildebrand and knew that Henrie the Emperour being enemie to Pope Hildebrand bicause the good Pope warned him of his faultes did procure a false conuenticle at Brixia and caused false accusations there to be laid in against him as he did the like also in Rome it selfe whence the Pope was constrained to flee Videns autem saith Marianus Scotus Henricus papam aufugisse congregatis 30. Episcopis fautoribuss suis in ipsa Romanae vrbis obsidione iussit haberisynoduÌ„ in qua Gregorius papafalsis inauditis criminationibus à fautoribus Henrici fictè compositis absens accusatur Denique dicebant cum prophanum scelestum amatorem discordiae virum sanguinuÌ„ sedem Apostolicam vsurpare per necromantiam Conspirantes ergo qui coÌ„uenerunt in vnum aduersus DominuÌ„ aduersus Vicarium eius Papam Gregorium daÌ„nauerunt eum But Henrie seing that the Pope was fled assembling together 30. Bishops who fauoured his part commaunded a synode to be kept euen as he was at the fiege of the citie of Rome in which Synode Gregorie the Pope being absent is accused of false crimes and such as were neuer heard of the which Henries fautours had purposely forged To be shorte they said he was a prophane man a wicked man a louer of discorde a bloudy man and that he had vsurped the See Apostolike by Necromancie They therefore who had thus assembled them selues together conspiring against our Lorde and against his Vicare Pope Gregorie condemned him If you were but a ciuil honest man M. Iewel you would not take that for a Truth which one enemie saith of an other Hildebrand acquitted by true and indiffereÌ„t historiographers It maie please you to read those Historiographers which wrote without partialitie as Marianus Scotus Platina Lambertus SchafnaburgeÌ„sis and Nauclerus with such like By perusing them you shal finde yourselfe a Lyer and Pope Hildebrand a vertuouse man and one that was zelously bent to correcte such faultes as were in the clergie at that time specially Simonie But though he had ben otherwise it hindereth not oure cause as long as he kepte the same Faith whiche he receiued of his forefathers Iewel Pag. 132. Platina calleth the Popes sometimes in scorne Pontificulos Platina in Romano 2 litle petite Popes sometimes monstra portenta monsters and vnnatural and ilshapen creatures Harding If Platina speake so of some Popes it is the more signe that he either hated the Popes or els that he spake as he thought and that he wrote not for flatterie as sometimes you saye of him I praye you what cause had Platina to flatter with them as with Hildebrand who were so long dead before he was borne And as for those with whom he liued he flattered them neuer a whit as maye appeare by the life of Pope Paulus the second Platina caÌ„not seme to haue flattered the Popes in vvritiÌ„g their liues Wel were then some Popes monsters Verely I thinke so with Platina concerning some few of their liues But euen those that were worste made no breache in the rule of the faith God so prouided alwaies that although Hel gates to wit al vices and al the power of the Deuil were bent against the Popes and the Churche of Rome yet al should not preuaile against the Rocke and true Confession of the Faith which euer hath ben and shal be in the Succession of Peters Chaire Whereupon S. Hierome doubted not to saye Hieron epist ad DamasuÌ„ Cathedrae Petri Communione consocior super illam petram aedificatam Ecclesiamscio I