they renounce all such lords Aske them againe why they subject their Consciences soules and bodies to the will and lust of man in will-worship forbidden by the Apostle ô they answere they never knew that before and now that they know it they repent of it and from henceforth they renounce it and resolve to loose rather life and all then they will doe so any longer Thus even a good Christian through ignorance may for a time in a dangerous errour but so soon as he is convinced of it he will not for all the world continue in it So he that hath true saving faith in Christ resting on Christs merits alone for his justification he neither will nor can be brought to beleeve that he must be justified by his works For this is against the very nature of saving faith which rests onely on Christ renouncing all other respects So that 't is impossible that any true member of Christ should by any errour be so seduced as to be seperated from Christ for he is preserved by the spirit of Grace by the power of God through faith unto salvation So that as the whole body of the Church of Christ so every particular member of this body hath the certaine and infallible seale of the Spirit of Truth given him of Christ according to his promise purpose and intention for all truth absolutely necessary to salvation having both his Spirit and word to guide them into all truth Finally 't is very true being taken in a true sence that Christ never intended to leave an infallible certainty in his Church to satisfie either contentious or curious or presumptuous spirits And if not presumptuous spirits certainly not such spirits as usurpe a Prelaticall and Lordly Authority and to sit as visible Iudges of Scripture in Generall Councels imposing upon all men a servile yoake of obedience to their Decrees whether right or wrong true or false Nay to such presumptuous spirits God hath given eyes not to see and hath made their hearts fat not to understand the truth not to see the light that shineth in his word and therfore they say it is darke and speake disgracefully of it So as the presumptuous is properly yours As for the contentious and curious these are they that contend for the truth against your undermining and oppugning of it and are curious â—o search and sound the bottome of that Mystery of Iniquity which is cunningly yet grosly enough folded up in the voluminous leaves of this your Booke So as for these so contentious and curious Christ did intend to leave an Infallible certainty in his Church to satisfie them and to assure them of the Truth so as not all the opposition and contradiction in the world can beate them from it To the Tenth you make no matter of it if Generall Câ—uncels erre in one or a second or a third so it be not in things necessary In other cases it makes no matter if they erre And what matter is it then if there be none of your Generall Councel at all For you confesse that they may possibly though not easily erre in things necessary and in fundamentall points of Faith and yet obedience must be given If then it be no matter if in other things they erre onâ—e twice thrice yea or if you will in a hundred things take all these together and the world should be free from many dangers if it were rid of Generall Councels altogether But in the meane time you make no matter of it if in so erring they load the world with an intollerable burthen of errours which all men must bow their necks under till another Generall Councel doe free them and perhaps in stead of freeing them may lay as much more load upon them Truly my Lord if you had not a liberty to talk with your pen what you please and a strong opinion also that whatsoever you write or speake must needs be of every body highly applauded as if all you write were Oracles you would never have suffered such foule blots to have dropped from your pen. But 't is no matter If you erre in this and that and another c. aswell as your Generall Councels so as we knowing them may not in obeying or assenting erre with you To the Eleventh you say for necessary faith to salvation we have the Scriptures Creeds 4 first Generall Councels So then being furnisht of necessaries what need we any more I think the Apostles rule for temporall things may hold well in spirituall he saith having food and rayment let us therewith be content So Having all things necessary for faith to salvation let us use these well and bâ— content not affecting to be loaden with a multitudo of humane devises which Prelaticall Councels Courts and Canons put upon us And are Generall Councels so Cheape as that you should keep such a doe having no Necessaries to trouble them withall But it seems you have some other necessaries besides those of faith that will require a Generall Councel For you tell us pag 211. The setling of the Divisions of Christendome as the reconciling of England with Rome the making of Canons which must bind aâ—l particular Christians and Churches cannot be concluded 〈…〉 but there to wit in a Generall Councel Why but there For the Church of England you may doe what you please onely you desire perhaps a Generall Councel to conclude for Altars and other utensils and so ease your shoulders of the envy and crime of Innovation but for that also you have a sufficient put off as is shewed before But the reconciliation and setling of the Divisions of Christendome will conclude all But still the Scripture with you is not alone sufficient for necessary faith to salvation without the Creed and at least the 4 first Generall Councels Why was the Scripture before there were any either Creeds or Councels And was not the Scripture then alone sufficient for all things necessary to salvation The Creeds and Councels are not to be added to the Scripture as if without them it were not an absolute and compleat Rule As for the Creeds they were for the summe and substance of them extracted from Scripture and must still be reduced to Scripture for their true sense and interpretation as before And for the Decrees of the 4 Generall Councels we approve of them no further then the Scripture warrants them And therfore though Twelfthly you humbly submit to the Scripture as it is interpreted by the Primitive Church and Generall Councels and not els yet we submit our faith onely to the Scripture as it is interpreted by it selfe and by the spirit of Christ speaking and breathing in it which by the Scripture interprets the Scripture unto us as Augustine doth well observe in his Second Book de Doctrina Christiana And herein you shew your faith not to be Divine but humane as which you submit not meerly to the Scripture but unto the Iudgment of men as
They are taught this one Maine Principle That they must be saved not by Faith onely but by their good Works whereby they must merit their Salvation Now this all Papists learned and unlerned professe This unlesse they cease to be Papist they live and dye in and so they are necessarily and certainly damned For to adde any thing to Faith in Iustification is damnation as before it shewed And saith the Prophet They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy But Thirdly you say They may be saved so they conforme to a Religious life Now what is the Religious life of a Papist and especially of a silly ignorant Papist Namely to goe to Shrief or Confession to the Priest his Ghostly Father as often as may be as the Fernall Glory published by your Chapleins licence teacheth or at the least once a yeare against Easter to keep his Lent-fast strictly so as upon paine of damnation or greivous penance not to eat an egge all that time and so observe all othor Fasting-dayes in the yeare together with all Holydayes to say over their Beads every day in repeating their Pater Noster Ave Mary Creed and ten Commandements â—f either they be so learned or devout to goe to their dayly Masse and Mattens where it is their safety to understand never a word nor to say Amen to the Priest but by the sound of his voyce which they understand no more then the chattering of a Magpy to call upon such a Saint his speciall Mediator and say a Pater Noster and Ave Mary before such an Image and especially of their Lady and a thousand such like observations wherein a Popish Religious life consisteth And so this is the Religious life of your ignorant silly Papist wherin living and dying he may be saved if he may beleeve your Doctrine But to this you adde An humble and peaceable obedience To What Or to whom As to the Priests Ghostly Discipline when he injoynes sore penance as whipping-cheare in Lent or the like Or if you meane peaceable obedience to the Civil Magistrate as in England that must be according to their Ghostly Fathers direction and limitation they must not take the Oath of Supremacy nor in some cases the Oath of Allegiance when it makes for the Catholick Cause And though to satisfie the Law and save his purse he come once a moneth to Church and heare your service yet Sermon he must not heare especially if the Preacher be Puritannicall for that might turn him quite from his Popery And thus such partly by their peaceable civill life and partly by their humble Popish Religious life so living and dying may be saved And therfore to such silly Ignorants we must not deny salvation Why so For first We have not so learned Christ say you Wee What wee Wee to wit you and your present Church of England And surely you had not need to deny salvation to that Church with which you and your Church is one and the same Church least otherwise you might leave your selves as little hope of salvation as others doe them But this is a piece of your learning of Christ it seems to beleeve that a silly ignorant Papist that knows not the right hand from the left that is drowned in Ignorance blindnesse superstition Idolatry Infidelity and as a drowned man knows it not may securely wrappe himselfe in the shrowd or mantle of his silly ignorance and so goe to heaven Thus have you learned Christ. But Wee Wee I say that renounce all communion with the Whore of Babylon and with all her Abominations have not so learned Christ as having heard him and been taught by him as the truth is in Iesus as to beleeve there is salvation to be hoped for of any but such as walke according to Christs rule and live and dye in his Faith And what 's Christs rule Even that which follows in the same place vers 22 To put off and renounce the former conversation of the Old Man which is corrupt according to the deceitfull lusts waâ—king v. 18. in the vanity of our minds having the understanding darkened being alienated from the life of God through ignorance as the Gentiles because of the blindnesse of their heart who being past feeling have given themselves to all â—â—sâ—viousnesse to worke all uncleannes with greedinesse Wherupon the Apostle addes But have not so learned Christ so as to thinke to be saved in a Heathenish life drowned in ignorance from which you cannot distinguish the life of an ignorant Papist except that it is infinitely more stupid and fuller of grosse ignorance and all abominations then the Heathen were and saving that Papists professe the name of Christians We have not I say so learned Christ. What is then the learning of Christ To put off the Old Man and that ye be saith the Apostle renewed in the spirit of your mind putting on the New man which after God is created in Righteousnesse and true Holinesse This is the learning of Christ. So as without this learning neither any silly ignorant Papist nor the most pregnant acute learned Arch-Prelate can be saved We must have both the Righteousnesse of justification by Faith imputed and of Sanctification of the spirit of Christ inherent and shining forth in a holy life and conversation It is not a Pope-holynesse in keeping of a Lent fast or worshiping of an Altar and such like counterfeit holines of mans devising This you learne not of Christ. For Christ saith In vaine they worship me teaching for Doctrines the Commadements of men or humane Traditions This holinesse saves not but shuts men out of the Kingdome of Heaven But secondly You call it stifnesse and churlishnesse in Protestants to deny all Papists salvation We shall by and by see your Charity to Papists which is so extreame great as we need not wonder at your malice against those some Protestants you speake it Is it stifnesse to avouch the truth And if they do bebaiousthai as the Apostle exhorteth Titus constantly affirme what not onely is truth but also necessary to be spoken as being a matter of such moment and consequence as concernes the savation of soules by denying salvation to whom it belongeth not and when men are seduced in a false perswasion therof call you this churlishnesse Certainly this churlishnesse in so denying is better then your charity in affirming a falshood Nay what will you say if this which you call churlishnesse be found to be true Charity when your Charity will be found to be deadly hatred against the soule of that silly ignorant Papist For true Charity ever consists with verity els it is no Charity but vanity Now those Protestants which deny salvation to all Papists living and dying in the Roman faith doe it upon sound and solid grounds even upon cleare evidence of Scripture For the Roman Faith is not the true Christian Faith as we have proved And without the true Christian Faith
that day or any other day but admonishing Christians to abhore them as Heathenish and is this the faith and practise of the present Church of England at this day wherein you resolve to live and dye Fourthly The Apostles and ancient Primitive Church in their dayes taught held and professed all chose excellent saving Doctrines of Election Predestination Redemption of the Elect their Effectuall vocation and conversation by Gods saving and Omnipotent Grace their assurance of Salvation by Faith and their certaine perseverance in Grace unto Glory and none of these Doctrines were forbid to Ministers to be preached but they were commanded of God to declare the whole Councel of God to his people Is this your faith and practise of the Church of England wherein you resolve to live and dye Fiftly The Apostles and the ancient Primitive Church in their dayes taught professed and practised that Discipline which was according to Christ forbidding all wâ—ll-worship and imposition of humane Ordinances as snares upon mens Consciences whereby that Christian liberty is overthrowne which Christ purchased for his people with his own blood Is this the Faith which you and the present Church of England professeth and practiseth and wherein you resolve to live and dye Sixtly The Apostles and the ancient Primitive Church in their time condemned the forbidding of Marriage and of Meates as a Doctrine of Devils taught by seducing spâ—riâ—s and a departing from the faith of Christ Is this that faith and Religion which you and the present Church of England hold professe and practise and wherein you resolve to live and dye O ye Prelates O thou Church of England blush and be ashamed of that Faith Profession and Practise of yours so 〈◊〉 contrary to that Faith which the holy Apostles taught and that pure and Primitive Church in their times imbraced and professed and be not so desperately bent as being so clearly convinced of these thy foule practises to professe and vow notwithstanding to live and dye in them least herein your condition prove as it must doe infinitly more desperate and damnable then that of the Jesuites themselves whose knowledge by your own confession of their wicked and damnable Fâ—â—ours with their obstinate persisting in them and resâ—sting the truth yea even the Holy Ghosts Testimony therein leaves them as without excuse so without all hope of salvation as to whom nothing remaines as the Apostle upon the like occasion saith but a fearefull expectation of Iudgement and of fiery indignation which shall devour the Adversaries L. p. 338. Yea but he saith againe That I acknowledge there is but one Saving Faith and that the Lady might be saved in the Roman Faith which was all the Iesuite tooke upon his soule Why but iâ— this be all I will confesse it againe The first that there is but one Faith I confesse with St. Paul Eph. 4. And the other That the Lady might be saved in the Roman faith or Church I confesse with that Charity which St. Paul teacheth me namely to leave all men especially the weaker sex and sort which hold the foundation to stand or fall to their own Master Rom. 14.4 And this is no mistaken Charity P. This you confesse that as there is but one saving faith so this faith is in the Church of Rome as in and by which the Lady may be saved And of this one faith with the Church of Rome you and your Church of England are if you hope to be saved with Rome by her saving faith This is the All and summe of your Confession Now we have clearly proved before that the faith of the Church of Rome is not that one saving faith of Gods Saints and Elect which the Scripture every where speaks of For first Romes faith is in its kind and nature and that by their own confession a dead faith but the saving faith is a living faith Secondly they confesse that with their faith they may goe to hell as they say of their Fidâ—les Fornicarii Adulteri c. therfore Romes faith is no saving faith for the saving faith is so called because it effectually perfectly and certainly saveth all those that have it as Christ saith Joh. 5.24 Thirdly The Romish â—aith is a doubting wavering uncertaine faith or raâ—her opinionâ— and wan hope as the Councel of Trent defineth accuâ—sing certainâ—y of beleeving whereas the saving faith is a certainâ— assurance and cleare evidence a plerophoria as Heb 10.22 Rom. 4 21.â— a full assurance or perswasiâ—n in the truth of beleeving though not in fullnesse of degrees of perfection in all and at all times the operation of it being many times hindered by corruptions and infirmities of the flesh and manifold temptations Fourthly Romes faith is and may be without hope and charity but true saving faith is never without hope and charity for it is the sure foundation of things hoped for and it worketh by Love Fifty The Roman faith is not the Iustifying faith for the Councel of Trent saith Faith justifieth not till Hope and Charity come to it and then all 3 together and that as inherent Graces and works in us do justifie whereas true saving faith is therfore called the Iustifying faith because it is that onely Grace whereby as an Instrument applying Christ and his righteousnesse and not as works in us the beleeving sinner is justified Rom. 3.28 so as though this saving justifying faith be never without hope and charity no more then fire is without light and heat yet hope and charity have no hand at all with faith in justification so as not even faith it selfe as it is a Grace inherent with hope and charity doth justifie but onely as it is considered as a hand or instrument applying Christ as before But the Roman Faith as the Councel of Trent confesseth justifieth not as an instrument or hand applying Christ whereby his Righteousnesse is of God imputed to the beleever which Imputation the Councel in plain termes accurseth but onely as a Grace and worke inherent with hope and charity Sixtly saving faith is not onely a justifying faith whereby we stand righteous in Gods sight having Christs Righteousnesse imputed but also a sanctifying faith as Act. 26.18 called therfore a holy Faith Jude 20. as wherby a man is regenerate borne againe made a member of Christ and partaker of his Spirit and lives and dyes in holinesse but the Roman Faith doth not sanctifie for they confesse that wicked ungodly and profane persons may have it and goe to hell with it as before Lastly saving and justifying faith is a spirituall worke and gift of Grace wrought in the soule by the spirit of God and it is his sole worke without the concurrence or mans Will which is not free untill Grace hath given it both life and freedome but the Roman Faith is confessed by them in the Councel of Trent not to be a meere worke of Grace nor at all of sanctifying and saving Grace
their communion with Christ. Now for the second Instance of shaking the Foundation Christ which is Profanesse Tell me are not the ten Commandements Fundamentalls as being the principles and rules of our Sanctification So as the Popes Parasites are not so impudent as in their Decretals and other writings to affirme that he can dispence with the morall Law although they say of him in the Decretalls That Papa aliquando nimium Papaliter dispensat The Pope sometimes dispenseth too papally or Pope-like What say you then of the 4 th Commandement touching the Sabbath day of the Lord our God and the Sanctification thereof Dare you say the Commandement is not Morall being placed in the midst of the Ten And though that seaventh day being the Last of the week as wherein God rested after the finishing of the worke of Creation which he therefore appointed to be the Sabbath day of the Old Testament be now abrogated as giving place to a new Sabbath day the First of the Weeke wherein our Lord Iesus Christ having finished the worke of a New creation rising againe entred into his Rest namely the State of Rest Immortality and Glory is therefore the 4 th Cammandements Morality so abrogated as it is not still in force to injoyne us Christians the Sanctification of that day of the Week which is the Sabbath day of the Lord our God Iesus Christ Or doth it not aswell and by the same Reason bind us Christians to the Sanctification of the first day of the week as whereon the Lord our God Iesus Christ rested from a greater worke of Creation as it did the Jewes to the Sanctification of the 7 th or last day of the Week as whereon the Lord God rested from his worke of the Creation of Heaven and Earth It is so demonstrative and cleare that to deny it argues not onely grosse ignorance in the knowledge of Christ and of Divinity but also a mind destitute of grace and true sanctity that dare imagine the least imperfection or mutability to be in that or any other of the Morall Commandements Now if the 4 th Commandement bind us Christians as 't is cleare it doth and as hereafter I shall take occasion to be a little more large in it to the Sanctification of the Sabbath or rest day of the Lord our God which is now the First day of the weeke upon the same Reason that it obliged the Jewes of the Old Testament to keep the 7 th or last day of the week then is not the open profanation of the Lords day by sports and pastimes a shaking of a foundation of Faith Nor doe I meane onely a Profanation thereof de facto in practise either through ingnorance or custome or frailty but by open and professed Toleration and Dispensation and that by publick Edict incouraging people to such vain sports and pastimes as doe most Heathenishly profane not onely the Day but the very name of Christianity and Christian Profession So as this Profanation and so violation of the 4 th Commandement is of a very high nature and a sinne of presumption as wherein humane Authority lifts it selfe up against and above the Law-giver himselfe daring to dispense with his holy and eternall Law and that in giving liberty to the flesh to commit sinne even with greedinesse Now this Foundation of Faith whereby the Communion of Saints and all true sanctification of life is supported and maintained to wit in the due sanctification of this day in all holy duties publique and private being thus not onely shaken but with high contempt troden under profane feet through intollerable pride of men have you put to your hand as firmly as you can to support it Did you interpose your selfe that that Booke for Sports might not be revived out of the Ashes wherein it had lyen so long buried as it was all rotten and forgotten Or that it might not be reprinted with a new Enforcement Or at least if it must needs be so that it might not be pressed upon Ministers to read it in their Congregations to the manifest dishonour of GOD and their holy Ministry and to the great offence of their Consciences and of their People And when the feare of GOD and their owne Conscience withheld some from reading of it did you spare any of them from suspension at least Did you spare Mr. Wilson of Kent from Suspending him with your own mouth Nay were not divers Ministers in Surrey and els where as in Kent Essex c. so prosecuted as either they were put out of their livings as Mr. Snelling of Kent or els for feare of worse did voluntarily quit their livings and got them gone And when upon petition some were referred to you what reliefe had they Did you put to your hand as firmely as you could to support the poore men Or did you show them the least mercy or favour Nay on the contrary are you not the Grand if not the Sole Instrument both of reviving republishing pressing it upon Ministers punishing and oppressing them yea and undoing them about it Is this to put to your hand as firmly as you can to support such a Foundation of Faith when you not onely shake but breake down the Pillars by whose Ministry such a foundation is maintained Are you not then not onely too wary and one that hath more care of himselfe then of the Cause of Christ but too unreasonably bold and impious in not onely not supporting but putting to your hand as firmely as you can to the utter demolishing and ruinating of these holy Foundations of Faith both by your Antichristian superstition and Heathenish profanesse Nay in so shaking one Foundation the 4 th Commandment in the open toleration of the profanation of the Lords Sabbath day you shake all those ten Foundations overturning all holinesse all duties to God and Man as Infidelity against the first Commandement Setting up your May-Idol-Poles against the second Commandement taking Gods name in vaine in breaking that Baptismall vow of Christianity in renouncing all vanity against the third Commandement despising and abusing Gods Ordinances against the fourth teaching irreverence and disobedience to Parents and Masters and that expresly against the fifth Commandement giving occasion of murther against the sixth of adultery against the seaventh of drunkennesse and so of theft and opening the very flood gate to all wickednesse To conclude this point Either your Lorship is most grosly ignorant of the Foundations of Faith what they be or you are extreamely selfe blind in imagining that the world will not suspect any Serpent lurking under the green leaves of your goodly words having too much tasted of your bitter fruits so as your fair words and foule actions must needs make men asmuch abhorre your gracelesse hypocrisie as they doe your shamelesse impiety while under a faire colour and meere pretence of holding and upholding the Foundations of Faith you undermine them and blow them up L. p. 13 14. Comparing the Church
those plagues written therein and threatned against Reprobates and Devils shal be most certainly inflicted in beliefe whereof they tremble What have they this Faith given them of God and is the Holy Ghost the Sole Infuser of it or any Infuser of it at all And yet I say This historicall faith is that which you Speake of here For you do in that 16 th Section consisting of about 30 leaves in folio Speake of that Faith alone which beleeves the Scripture to be the word of God the onely subject of that long and tedious Discourse wherein you have spent so much sweat to so small purpose And the words immediately preceding doe shew this And your words immediately following are to confirme it which you alledge out of Stapleton Saying The Holy Ghost did not leave the Church in Generall nor the true members of it in particular without Grace to beleeve what himself had revealed and made credible Wherupon you inferre a little after Till the Spirit of God move the heart of man he cannot beleeve be the object never so credible Thus we see your mind at full what Faith what Gift of God what Grace this is which you Say none but the Holy Ghost giveth to his Church namely not that faith not that gift of God not that Grace not that worke of the Holy Ghost whereby a man comes to beleeve in Christ and to be indued with the Grace of Regeneration and Sanctification the proper worke and gift of the Holy Ghost whereof the Apostle speaketh in the fore-cited place but such a faith such a grace as the Councel of Trent professeth and aloweth and so that which Stapleton and all other Pontificials write of which is common to all wicked men and Reprobates as we have elswhere fully proved L. p. 75. The world cannot keep a man from going to weigh the Scripture at the Ballance of Reason whether it be the word of God or not For the word of God and the Book containing it refuse not to be weighed by Reason And pag. 76. For Reason by her own light can discover how firmely the Principles of Religion are true but all the light Shee hath will never be able to find them false P. 'T is â—rue that mans naturall Reason being not bridled by grace is so head-strong that the world it selfe cannot restrain it within its owne bounds but will be medling But yet though Reason be not excluded from giving her voyce and assent to the Scripture yet She must know her place She must come in the Reere of all and as a hand-maid not as a Mistresse Nor is it Reasons office to bring her ballance to weigh the Scriptures whether it be the word of God or not for herein She hath no negative voyce but onely of assent So as in this respect as a Judge Gods word refuseth to be weighed by Reason much lesse can it be true that Reason by her own light can discover how firmly the Principles of Religion are true For mans Reason being but Naturall and Gods word Supernaturall there is no proportion between them and Reason can no more judge of Scripture in this respect then a blind man can judge of colours So as Reason must not come in with her ballance and weights till a man be illuminated by the Scriptures themselves and by the Spirit of God and then being convinced of the truth thereof She gives her full assent that the Scripture is the word of God The Apostle saith The naturall man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God neither can he know them because they are Spiritually discerned How say you then That Reason by her own Light can discover how firmly the Principles of Religion are true Point blanke against the Apostle The Lord openeth the heart of Lydia to attend to the things spoken of Paul Now if the naturall man by the light of his naturall reason receiveth not nor is thereby capable of the things of the Spirit of God contained in the Scripture but that they are foolishnesse unto him untill God open the heart and reveale those things by his Spirit as the Apostle saith then Reason cannot judge of Scripture by her owne light For what is Reasons light in a naturall man Surely darknesse it selfe unto Spiritâ—all things Ye were once darknesse saith the Apostle Darknesse in the very abstract Mans naturall understanding and Reason darknesse And therefore as Christ saith If the light that is in thee be darknesse how great is that darknesse And Rom. 8.5 They that are after the flesh tà tes sarkòs phronousin doe savour the things of the flesh but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit Spirituall things are as unsavory to a naturall mans Reason as wholesome meat is to an aguish palate They are unto him morÃa foolishnesse saith the Apostle And Rom. 8.6 The wisdome of the flesh is death and ekthrà emnity against God and it is not subject to the Law of God neither indeed can be Ye saith Ieremy Every man is brutish in his own knowledge Can you then hale the Scripture to the barre of mans naturall Reason which is brutish to be judged by it whether it be Gods word or no And David saith Surely men of low degree are vanity Yea say you Men of low degree but not so men of high degree of learning and parts But take all with you Surely men of low degrâ—e are vanity and men of high degree are a lye to be layd in the ballance they are altogether lighter then vanity What men of low degree vanity and men of high degre a lye Yea Surely yea altogether lighter then vanity it selfe being â—ayd in the ballance But in what ballance In the uneven ballance with the false Scales of your naturall Reason No but in the Ballance and with the weights of the Sanctuary your Reason must be weighed And this ballance of the Sanctuary is the Scripture If then your Reason must be weighed at the ballance of the Scripture and there be found too light yea lighter then vanity yea altogether lighter then vanity yea Surely altogether lighter then vanity yea a very lye then what weights can your Reason bring being altogether lighter then vanity it selfe whereby to weigh the Scriptures Or how shall Reason which is a lye with her unequall Ballance and false weights weigh verity it selfe But if all this will not put you out of conceit of your naturall Reason as an incomptent Judge of Scripture to be the word of God which must needs argue the truth of Scripture that mans Reason is blindnes darknes emnity against the truth brutish vanity a ly altogether lighter then vanity it self give me leave a little to put you to it You perswade your selfe that you can by the strength and light of your naturall Reason judge or weigh the Scripture whether it be Gods word and discover how firmely the Principles of Religion
shall meet with many passages of good note yet he may observe how farre wide he is of the scope and meaning of the Psalmes which he handleth all along He preached indeed every day as Calvin did at Geneva besides all his other weighty imployments but what a disparity there is between their expositions I referre to the judgement of K. Iames who commended Calvins Commentaries above all those of the Ancients So for the Greek Church as Aug. for the Latine that golden mouthed Chrisostome according to his Name the best preacher in his time though many of his expositions were good yet when he came to his tò u'thikòn his morall or application though in it selfe it was very good yet for the most part no way pertinent to his text he handled but he would sometimes make his use against covetousnesse somtimes against pride or some other sinne or to exhort to some morall vertue or other but I say without any coherence to his text for the most part And for the most of those Antients what was the common Theame of their preaching but morality delighting rather to contemplate in a solitary life then to practise such preaching as might win soules How few of them did preach the Doctrine of Iustification by Faith in Christ. In somuch as Bernard who lived many hundred yeares after those ancients and in those times wherein he noted Antichrist to be come which he plainly poynted out to be the Pope did preach more soundly of this doctrine of Iustification by Faith onely then all those Fathers had done if we may judge of their preaching by their writings They spent themselves more in preaching for good works Then to set forth the faith in Christ though some flashes they had here and there And whether this be not one reason why you so commend the Fathers preaching because they were so much for good works and so little for faith I know not Whereas the moderne Divines of the Reformed Churches are most singular and excellent in seting forth the Mystery of faith and that doctrine of Iustification thereby therein exalting Gods grace and excluding mans merits though not negligent in exhorting to good works as the fruits of faith Those Doctrines of Grace and faith being the main substance of the Gospell and the true practising of Iesus Christ besides which there is no true preaching Admirable they are also in seting forth the nature of sinne to bring man out of himselfe and to plant him into Christ. And in a word have so set forth the whole body of Divinity as the Fathers writings to theirs are in comparison in respect of sound Divinity but as a barren Field to a fruitfull well planted and well watered Garden And great reason there is for this The Fathers had to deale with some Hereticks as with Arius whose Mal was Athanasius and with Pelagius knockt down by Augustine and others but they knew not as yet the Mistery of iniquity which in these latter times seeking to overtop the Gospell and to overthrow the Doctrine and Kingdome of Christ hath given occasion not onely of a reformation in a seperation from that Whore of Babylon but to many Worthies whom God hath raysed up in these last times to bestirre themselves and to study Christ his Military Discipline and spirituall warfare against the Beast and his Crew and to be expert in maintaining Christs Cause with weapons both offensive and defensive So as by this occasion Gods Grace working with it this last Century hath produced more excellent sound and learned Divines and famous preachers then I may say truly though not without envie have been ever since the Apostles times The Name of our God and of our Lord Iesus Christ who by this meanes hath Tryumphed over Antichrist be praysed and glorified for evermore These have been and are Christs Triarian band fighting against Antichrists power with the sword of the Spirit in their lippes their pike their pen in their hand and fighting on their knees by Prayre and have so confounded Antichrist by the dint of their Sword and Pike the word of God that he hath no meanes left him but by his legates à latere to negotiate his cause with Kings and Princes of the earth to incite them against the precise party by taking their weapon Gods word and the preaching thereof from them leaving them nothing but their bare knees to plead their Cause upon even Prayers and Teares these which the powers on earth may cause but never deprive them of And how farre you have been a stickler and instigator in this kind I appeale to your practises and to this your Book sufficient and competent witnesses against you But to return to your Fathers you say that they for all their preaching so farre beyond others yet no one of them durst think himselfe infallible much lesse that whatsoever he preached was the word of God 'T is true they had been no wise Fathers but Children rather yea proud and foolish Men if they had thought themselves to be infallible which is proper to God alone But whatsoever they preached out of Gods word that they had good evidence it was according to the Scripture why should they not not onely thinke but be assured that being the truth it was infallible as being the substance of Gods word which they preached And so all other preachers Lastly where you say It may be observed that no men are more apt to say that all the Fathers were but men and might erre then they that thinke their own preachings were infallible And what say you I pray you of your antient Fathers Were they any others but mâ—n And might they not erre But you are not perhaps so apt to say They were but men and might erre You are willing to entertain and retaine a higher opinion of them then so Or at least you are not so apt to say so of them as they then whom none are more apt to say The Fathers were but men and might erre Sure if there were cause enough and urgent too so to say as when it concernes the glory of God and the truth it selfe he that is aptest to say so is the most to be commended And now let us here a little inquire who these men be that are so apt to say thus of the ancient Fathers and for what cause That they were but men and might erre Why who should they be but the precise party of the reformed Churches as all the worthy reverend pious religious learned and judicious Divines both beyond the Seas and on this side who undertaking to defend the truth of Christ against Antichrist and their Adversaries objecting and pressing so much the authority of the antient Fathers in such things wherein they could not be otherwise excused but that they did a'nâ—ropopathein speake as men who are not in all things infallible what could they in such a case answere otherwise But that those Fathers were but men and might erre Nor
proof of the things beleeved How say you then that the maine grounds which prove them are concealed from our view and folded up in the unrevealed Councel of God And what main grounds I pray you be those Can you tell Or doe you speake in the Clouds that you may seem to say something which you understand not For certainly this Mystery of Faith is concealed from your understanding as appeareth by your darke and clowdy words And is that unrevealed councell of God the object of our Faith Cometh not Faith by hearing of the word of God wherein God hath revealed his will to us Or doth the Tradition of your present Church lead you to beleeve such sencelesse speculations Indeed the Apostle saith That in Christ are hid all the treasures of wisdome and knowledge Hid that is layd up and contained as a Treasure But not hid from his true Church and faithfuâ—l people as the Apostle saith If our Gospel be hid it is hid to them that are lost in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them that beleeve not least the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ should shine unto them And againe Eye hath not seen nor eare heard neither have entred into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit But where Search the Scriptures saith Christ for in them ye thinke to have eternall life and they are they which testifie of me so to this purpose the Apostle speaketh excellently Ephes 3.4 5 6. and 1.9.17 18 19 and in many other places But to you it seems these things are hid and folded up and therfore no mervaile you know not what you say nor wherof you affirme As the Apostle saith of some Who were turned aside from Charity out of a pure heart and a good Conscience and of Faith unfained unto vaine â—angling Desiring to be teachers of the Law understanding neither what they say nor wherof they affirme Let therfore the Prophet Esay read you a Lecture Stay your selves and wonder Cry ye out and cry They are drunken but not with wine They stagger but not with strong drinke For the Lord hath powred on them the spirit of deep sleep and hath closed your eyes The Prophets and your Rulers the Seers hath he covered And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a Book that is sealed which men deliver to one that is learned saying Read this I pray thee And he saith I cannot for it is sealed And the Book is delivered to him that is not learned saying Read this I pray thee And he saith I am not learned Wherfore the Lord said Forasmuch as this people draw neere me with their mouth and with their lippes doe honour me but have removed their heart farre from me and their feare towards me is taught by the Precepts of men Therfore behold I will proceed to doe a mervailous worke amongst this people even a marvailous work and a wonder for the wisdome of their wise men shall perish and the understanding of their prudent men shal be hid Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their councel from the Lord and their works are in the darke and they say who seeth us And who knoweth us surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the Potters Clay Loe my Lord I hope this word is not folded up if to you it be you shall one day both see and feele it more clearly and sensibly fulfilled But you goe on God in Christ say you resolving to bring Mankind to their last happinesse by Faith and not by Knowledge What by a blind Faith For by Faith and not by Knowledge is all one as to say by such a Faith as is without Knowledge and so without light in it and so blind Wheras the true saving Faith is a knowing Faith it is the evidence of things not â—een it sees him that is invisible as before is shewed But my Lord if the maine grounds be folded up in the unrevealed counsell of God I wonder by what revelation you come to know his secret That God in Christ hath resolved to bring Mankind to their last happinesse by Faith and not by Knowledge surely God hath no where in Scripture revealed any such resolution of his And if it be not written Timeas 〈◊〉 illâ—d as Tertullian forementioned said to Hermogenes the Heretick Feare that Woe to them that shall adde to the Booke of Scripture But if you had leasure to Read the Scripture it reveales unto us plainly what God in this businesse hath resolved to do and how he will bring Mankind to his last happinesse and that is by a seeing not a blind Faith by a Faith explicit and cleare not implicit and folded up by light and not by darknesse This is Gods way that he hath chalked out unto us in the Scripture as before is fully proved of Faith and therfore we are sure that God in Christ in his eternall councell resolved to bring us this way to heaven and no other way And this way is Christ and Christ is light and in this way we must walke as children of the light and not as children of darknesse And every true beleever as he becomes a new man so of a blind man he becomes a seeing man For this cause Christ came the true light that he might lighten every man that comes to him For this cause was Paul sent to preach to the Gentiles To open their eyes and to turne them from darknesse to light and from the power of Satan unto God that they may receive forgivenesse of sinnes and inheritance among them which are sanctified by Faith that is in me saith Christ so that every true Christian in his conversion of blind becomes seeing of darknesse becomes light in the Lord of Satans boâ—dmâ—n Gods serâ—ant and by this way onely through Faith in Christ they receive forgivenesse of sinnes here with sanctification and hereafter the eternall inheritance But as for you my Lord as you have found out another way namely a blind way not by the way of knowledge by which yet you pretend to your last happines so be assured of this that the place you are going unto is just like the way that leads unto it blind and darke yea utter darknesse where the Pit is into which both the blind leader and the blind led shall fall And for your further conviction or else confusion and confutation of your folly and information of your blind Disciples and confirmation of the truth to all the children of truth note what Christ himselfe saith expresly point blanke against you You say God in Christ resolved to bring Mankind to their last happinesse by Faith and not by Knowledge But Christ saith This is the will of him that sent me this God hath resolved on that every one
an ordinary Grace and this Ordinary Grace hath no force at all unlesse the present Churches Authority prepare the way So as this Ordinarily of yours admits of no exception at all in any case though never so extraordinary And thus you exclude that your Divine Faith as it is a worke of ordinary Grace as you call it from being any Grace of God at all except Grace of Canterbury can dubbe it for a Grace For all Grace is one of those two kinds I named even now either that Grace of God which makes a man freely accepted in Christ which your Ordinary Grace by your own Confession doth not or that common Grace which is said to be freely given of God to whom he will without the intervention or prevention of any outward meanes or respect which your ordinary Graces cannot be for your selfe every where professe that no ordinary Grace nor any thing else can worke beliefe that the Scripture is the word of God unlesse your present Church Authority tanquam Gratia preparans ac praeveniens as a preparing and preventing Grace prepare the way And thus you see to what a Confusion all your Schoole Distinctions are brought And in truth your Schoole Distinctions for the most part being weighed in the just ballance of the Sanctuary prove too light and doe corrupt the truth For even that Distinction which I named of Gratia gratis data Gratia gratum faciens though the termes are good and true yet as some apply the latter to wit Grace making acceptable it is corrupt As when by that Grace they understand Faith Hope and Charity which being infused into the soule aâ—e the matter say they of Iustification and of our acceptation with God Now in this sense this member of the Distinction holds not good but is Popish For Faith onely is that Grace which makes us accepted of God but this not as it is a worke or Grace inherent but as an Instrument apprehending and applying Christ in whom alone we are through Faith accepted of GOD who makeâ— us accepted in the beloved So as he that will find any good and sound Distinction out of the Schoole-men he must doe as Virgil said of his reading of Ennius Margaritas è caeno legere gather pearles out of the mudde and he must look to have them well washed and polished and tryed by the Scriptures before he use them to illustrate or confirme any Doctrine of sound Divinity This by the way L. p. 226. The time was before this A. miserable rent in the Church of Christ which I B think no Christian can look upon but with a bleeding heart that C you and we were all of one beliefe D That beliefe was tainted in Tract and Corruption of time very deeply A division was made yet so as E both parties held the Creed and other Common Principles of beliefe Of these this was one of the greatest That the Scripture is the word of God For our beliefe of all things contained in it depends upon it Since F this Division there hath been nothing done by us to discredit this Principle Nay we have given it G all honour and ascribed unto it more sufficiency even to the containing of all things necessary to Salvation with satis superque enough and more then enough which your selves have not done doe not H And for begetting and setling a beliefe of this Principle we goe the same way with you and a better besides The same way with you because we alow the Tradition of the present Church to be the first inducing motive to imbrace this Principle onely we cannot goe so farre in this way as you to make the present Tradition I alwayes an infallible word of God unwritten P. Here I Have Alphabetically as by A B C. c. noted sundry particulars A That you call the Protestants seperating from the Church of Rome a miserable rent Why miserable when Christ Commands it As Rev. 18.4 as is noted before and shall yet more in a fit place So as the Protestants had been in a miserable condition if this seperation this rent had not been made B 2 dly And must every Christian heart bleed to see it because it seems yours doth Surely this hath cost the heart-blood of many thousands of Gods Saints and Martyrs shed and spilt by that blood drunken whore Yet better so to perish by her temporally here then to perish with her eternally hereafter which must have been had not this miserable rent been made C 3 dly But before this rent say you they and we were all of one beliefe You may speake for your selfe if you had lived before the rent was made We doubt not but both you would have been of the same Faith with Rome and would have continued in it so as for your part there should never have been made such a miserable rent We know well both your Faith and your Charitable and Peaceable disposition for that matter Yea though that one beliefe was tainted That should have broken no square For you say D 4 ly That beliefe that very one beliefe whereof you and they then were before the rent was tainted yea very deeply too But I say still speake for your selfe and your Confederates onely usurpe not the name of all Protestants quorum tu pars minima whereof you were the least part if any at all that seperated from Rome whereof many before they came to be called Protestants which was upon their protesting against the Whore of Babylon and for their just and necessary seperating from her dissented from and disliked and so farre as the iniquity of the times and humane frailty and unavoidable necessity permitted seperated themselves privately at least from many of her most notorious and intolerable en ormites and not a few in their severall ages wherein they lived openly protested against her both by writing and preaching though it cost them their heart-blood for it You have at hand a Catalogue of them in Catalogus Testium veritatis and in the Book of Acts and Monuments and other Authors both forraigne and domesticke and that of fâ—esh bleeding memory E 5 ly You prove your Faith was then one for holâ—ing the Creed and other CoÌ„mon Principles of beliefe of which one of the Greatest c. Indeed before that rent Rome professed and held the letter and externall form of the Creed but not the sense faith life and substance as elsewhere you confesse of the present Church of Rome Did you so then so now I doubt 't will prove so in a great measure For though you tell us that your beliefe of all things contained in the Creed depends upon this principle That Scripture is the word of God For that is the best sense can be made of your words yet there be many even fundamentall Doctrines in Scripture which your beliefe depends not upon nor your practises agree unto as both before is touched and occasion will be given yet more to speake of
no salvation And that one Doctrine of Justification by works were there no more which all Papists professe and hold is alone sufficient to shut out all Papists living and dying therein from salvation This being so cleare should Protestants grant notwithstanding a possibility of salvation to any Papist living and dying in that Romish faith they should utter a manifest untruth and falshood and so should bewray themselves to be notoriously uncharitable How First to Protestant Professors 2. to Papists To Protestant Professors causing the weake at least to waver in their faith and make them the apter to be seduced by Romish Priests and Jesuites who prevaile not a little with vulgar Protestants and that by this very Argument which you hold That Protestants yea the Primate of Canterbury grant a possibility of salvation in the Roman Church Whereas we say the Jesuites deny salvation to be had in the Protestant Church Although I hope they will not extend this to the Church of England which you say is one and the same Church with that of which Rome is Againe secondly Protestants in not affirming this truth Then it is impossible for any Papist living and dying in the Roman faith to be saved should be very uncharitable to the Papists themselves For seeing them running on in a way which is full of false ground and deep pits covered over with green leaves and the end whereof is certaine and unavoydable destruction should they not cry out unto them to abandon that way and by all meanes and speed to get them out of it they were very uncharitable And the Scripture calls this hatred of our Brother As Levit. 19.17 Thou shalt not hate thy brothâ—r in thy heart thou shalt in any wise rebuke him and not suffer sin upon him And for ignorant Papists we are not to cast off all hope of them but erranti comiter monstrare viam shew those wanderers the right way instructing them with meeknesse proving if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledgement of the truth And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the Devil being taken captive of him at his will Ob. But for Protestants to have no better an opinion of Papists and of their Religion would as you tell us before make the rent wider which you are loth to doe The rent is too wide so to be sowed up with the rotten thread of your Charity Nay such your Charity keeps Papists the further off from the true Protestant Religion when they may be provided of salvation nearer home and that so easily too But however the truth must be spoken as you â—old us before As Augustine saith in the point of Predestination at the Preaching whereof some in his dayes as too many in ours taking offence he answereth Numideo tacenda est veritas c. Is the Truth therfore to be concealed because some unjustly are offended with it to their damnation and not rather to be spoken that he which is able to receive it may receive it to his salvation And here the Papists take offence at Protestants for speaking the truth it is not scandalum datum but acceptum not an offence given but taken And though some take offence yet others weighing by reason may thereby through Gods grace forsake their errour and imbrace the truth If they will not we have freed our own soules and Truth is Truth still We must keep our distance and not because they will not come to us goe the halfe way at least to draw them to us as before As the Lord saith to his Prophet concerning revolted Israel Let them return unto thee but return not thou unto them And if thou take forth the Precious from the vile thou shalt be as my mouth We must not mingle and confound the precious and pure gold with the base drosse not truth with errour not light with darknesse Yet for your part you say Thirdly Not to deny Papists salvation living and dying Papists to wit in the Roman Faith is not mistaken Charity and if it be mistaken Charity is better then none at all But first we have shewed that this is no Charity at all but an erronious opinion arising from a spirit destitute of the Truth and too much in love with the Romish whore And Secondly such mistaken Charity is worse then no Charity at all in this kind It were better if ye had no such Charity For your Charity towards your silly ignorant Papists in perswading them that they are safe enough in any society of men and there is salvation for them living and dying in the Roman Faith is a nuzzling of them in their ignorance and like the Apes Charity to her young one a strangling of them with too much hugging and bewrayes you to be of the spirit of those false Prophets that strengthen the hands of the wicked that he should not return from his wicked way by promising him life that dawbe with untempered morter that call evil good and good evil that put darknesse for light and light for darknesse and wo to such that say peace peace when there is no Peace Ob. But you will say shall we shut out silly ignorant Papists from Gods mercy Nay you your selfe shut them out from Gods mercy while you shut them up in their blindnesse and so from the meanes of Gods mercy For meanes of mercy they have none in their Popish Religion and blind faith and therein you lull them fast asleep while you tell them so long as they are ignorant of the Errours of Popery they are safe among any part of men Thus you shut them out from Gods mercy as much as in you is when we by shewing them the truth and their errour would lead them to Gods mercy Nor doe we deny but God may in the riches of his Grace and mercy prevent and overtake a silly Papist in causing him to imbrace Christ by Faith even when he lyes on his death bed and truly beleeving in Christ and so dying he is undoubtedly saved But dying thus a true Beleever he dyes not in the Roman faith but in the saving faith of Christ which the Roman faith is not So as thus dying within the Verge of the Roman Church yet he dyes no member of the Roman Church but of the true misticall body of Christ. And this Charity we have towards silly Papists praying that God would shew them mercy in delivering them from under Antichrists yoake to take Christs yoake upon them and bring them out of darknesse into his marvellous light To proceed L. p. 294 295. Io. Frith saith Of the presense of Christs naturall body in the Sacrament that neither side ought to make it an Article of Faith but leave it indifferent And B. Ridley we confesse all one thing to be in the Sacrament onely we differ in modo in thâ— manner of Beeing P And of this of Ridley you say ibid. 'T is well if some
what Of no lesse then Heresie and Schisme and other sinne too living and dying in the Roman faith Nay if there be but perill though great perill these pregnant Wits have wayes and wiles enough to avoyd all such perills and that by the cleane strength of their Art of equivocation wherein they are become the most expert Masters in the world Except they have forgotten it it is so long agoe since our Judges were wont to put them shrewdly to it as to confesse whether they were Priests or no which confession then was as good as to be hangd And you say elsewhere such can make a short cut to heaven when they lye a dying saying They renounce all their own merits whither their many bad or their few Good merits is not known and rely onely upon Christs merits for salvation As your good Brother Stephen Gardiner did at his death as before But when they dye in so good a mood though they may seem as Gardiner seemed to dye in the faith yet in charity they do not while they leave not the same gappe open for the people by which themselves get through concealing Iustification by Faith from the silly vulgar In which desperate case had not your Lordships charity put in to helpe at a dead lift to teach them a blind way to heaven which scarce any Jesuites before you ever knew What had become of them But alas As you delude those silly ignorants by telling them such a way leads to heaven which will carry them straight to hell so on the other side you doe but dally with A. C. and his fellows in telling them they are in perill onely when they are in the very precipice of perdition But if you intended to be their Ghostly Father indeed you should have told them plainly Their Religion is Idolatry Heresie Schisme Apostacie Antichristianisme Infidelity and all manner of Inâ—quity and Impiety so as to live and dye therein is inevitable damnation to all Papists whatsoever but double damnation to those that know it For as Christ saith That servant which knew his Lords will and prepared not himselfe neither did according to his will shal be beaten with many stripes But he that knew not and did commit things worthy of stripes shal be beaten with few stripes But what should a man speake to the deafe Adder that stoppes her eare and will not hearken to the voyce of Charmers charming never so wisely I will follow my Lords Councel Let them alone They be blind leaders of the blind and if the blind lead the blind they shall both fall into the pit And as he saith to the Pharisees Fill ye up the measure of your Fathers But how come you to say Ther 's danger of Schisme living and dying in the Roman faith What Can a man be a Schismaticke being a Romanist Then is not the Church of Rome her selfe a Schismatick And so the Church of England all one Church And so your Catholicke Church of which you and Rome are all Schismaticks Look to it But I may not leap over that which you have stumbled upon namely Romes Tyranny to boot And it were well if such Tyranny were confined to Rome saving that all Tyranny is such as it will not be confined to any place within any bounds You say that the Church of England and that of Rome are one and the same Church Certainly then this One Church what ever you pretend of the Catholick Church is of such a constitution as whose very foundation is Tyranny because Hierarchicall As Pope Hadoian 4. an English man lying extreme sick said That there was no life more wicked then the Popes whose Popedome was founded in blood and is maintained with blood wherein he is Romulus his successor who in laying the first foundation of Rome slew his brother Remus And wherein doth the Tyranny of your Popedome in the Church of England come short of the Popes saving that he hath a more powerfull Principality then you have Have not you in your hand like that Roman Iupiter the Pope your thunderbolâ— of Excommunication to blast and cast out of the Church whom you please or those who do not please you Do not the Censures of your High Commission like the Popes Court of Inquisitâ—â—n extend to the spoyling of good Ministers and Christians of all liberty and livelyhood You will say You use no fagots as Rome doth 'T is true 't is not yet come to that But wheâ—'s the default You onely want a Law But in the mean time you want not your devises armed both with your own power and borrowed of others to afflict men worse then with death as before is shewed in the forenamed examples And therfore from all such Tyranny both English and Romish the Lord deliver us L. p. 299. I do indeed for my part leaving other men free to their own judgement acknowledge a possibility of salvation in the Roman Church But so as that which I grant to Romanists is not as they are Romanists but as they are Christians that is as they beleeve the Creed and hold the Foundation Christ himselfe not as they associate themselves wittingly and knowingly to the grosse superstitions of the Romish Church P. Now you speake a little more plaine then before But how do you leave other men free to their own judgement when for not being of your judgement in this point you censâ—re them of stiffenesse and churlishnesse and want of Charity And yet you your selfe say that there is no possibility of Salvation for Romanists as they are Romanists So as your judgement is That Romanists as they are Romanists have no possibility of Salvation Ergo no Papist as a Papist living and dying in the faith and Religion of Popery can possibly be saved And just so say those Protestants whom you Censure for stiffe churlish and uncharitable Onely you qualifie it with this Condition If they wittingly and knowingly associate themselves to the grosse Superstition of the Romish Church so as still you save harmlesse your silly ignorant Papists that know nothing at all whether they doe and beleeve right or wrong And you distinguish That as Romanists they cannot be saved but as Christians beleeving the Creed and holding the foundation Christ. But we told you before that your silly ignorant Papists do not so much as understand or know the very letter of the Creed how much lesse beleeve it If they can mumble over their Creed as many a blind Priest doth his Mâ—sse 't is in a strange tongue and they say it for one of their blind and superstitious Prayers as they doe their Ave Marie So that way what hope or possibility can they have of salvâ—tion And for holding the foundation Christ to that we have before sufficiently proved the Contrary But say you they are Christians So you say they are Romanists too As one telling the Emperour Sigismund of Iulianus the Cardinal speaking somthing in his Commendation he