also agreed that it must beare such a sense as may stand with the scripture and the analogie of faith then although we differ about the proper sense of the words yet differ we not about any matter of Faith as you do about originall sinne PAPIST Seeing therefore the Church of Christ continueth visible for â—uer as ours hath done and not theirs wee haue the auncient Fathers for patrones of our cause they be destitute of all antiquitie we haue the truth in many points according to their owne confessione and they consequentlie falshood wee haue the Scriptures and their true interpretation they onelie the bare name and priuate erroneous exposition I conclude that whosoeuer will be saued must not heare them but embrace our old Catholike Apostolike faith PROTESTANT The persons of all the members of the Church of Christ as men haue beene in their times visible are and shall be to the worlds end they haue beene also generally to some of their fellow members visiblie in their times as members of the body of Christ howbeit the visibility of Churches established and in their assemblies worshipping God in the word Sacraments and prayer they haue often wanted as in the Egyptian captiuitie the daies of Elias the captiuitie of Babylon the dispersion caused by Sauls persecution and vnder the ouer-spreading tyrannie of the Romish Antichrist driuing the woman that brought foorth the man-childe into Reuel 12. 13. 14 the wildernesse into a pâ—â—e prepared for her of God During which captiuitie of the Church in seuerall times either heathenish idolatry as in Egypt or Church idolatry as the golden calues and the seruice of Baal before and in the daies of Elias or carnal worship as among the Iewes in the dispersion afore-saide or meere Atheisme as vnder Sanballat and Tobijah or the mysterie of iniquity vnder the shew of pseudochristianitie as in the Apostasie of Antichrist hath borne the sway in the world as the onely Religion Such is the visibility of your Romish apostafie like the visibility of Ierobâ—ams calues of Baals Church of the Scribes and Pharisies and in pretence to build with the Iâ—wes that is the true Church of Christ semblant to Sanballat and Tobijah or at the beâ—â— to Eliashab their friend In this visibility you haue set foorth many goodly Pageants to dazell the eies of all those in whoÌ„ â—he God of this world hath blinded their eiâ—s that the light of the 2 Cor. 4. 3. 4. glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them as the state of Popes and Cardinals the Babylonish magnificence of your temples beset with sumptuous idols the stage play of your Masse with your whole Antichristian tyrannie which you haue vaunted to the world as the harlot her bedecked bed Prou. 7. 15. 17. with ornaments carpets and layes of Egypt perfumed with Mirrhe Aloes and Cinamon and like vnto the picture of Apoc. 17. 3. 4. 5. your Church the mother of whoredomes and abhominations that sitteth vpon a scarlet coloured beast and is arrayed in purple and scarlet and guided with gold and precious stones and pearles and hath a cup of gold in her hand full of abhominations and filthinesse of her fornications Of such visibility wee giue you leaue to boast and reioyce that wee haue no part with you in your glory least wee should also haue part with you in your plagues And albeit GOD hath graunted more visibility to our Churches then you can indure with patience to behold yet make wee not out of such visibility any demonstration that our Church is the true Church That faith that worship which by open confession and practise was visible in our Sauiour Christ and his blessed Apostles which in their holy writings inspired of God they haue deliuered to be seene read and vnderstood to be held and obserued of all the true Church of God is a demonstratiue and infallible visibility which wheresoeuer it is to be seene and discerned prooueth and conuinceth that they are the Church of Christ This is the onely visibility wherby the true Church is to be discerned and knowen which we haue often prooued and we hope is manifest to all mens consciences to be found in our Church and you shall neuer be able while the world standeth to make any sound proofe that your Church hath any such visibilitie but manifestly the contrary What patronage the auncient Fathers lend vnto your cause hath beene before shewed where you alleadged anie thing out of them and often hath beene further in all the fundamentall points wherein you â— dissent from vs and from the truth You imitate some rites twice dead and buried since they vsed them you are confident to affirme some things whereof they doubted you take vp their errors for principles of your faith you abuse and peruert their words and phrases to a contrarie meaning and in these onely as touching your Popish religion you follow the Fathers but their indicious testimonies touching the fundameÌ„tall points of Doctrine as originall sinne and the fruit therof concupiscence free will instification the vse of good workes the Sacraments and diuerse other points you will not see or else you peruert as the instable doe the Scriptures to their owne destruction 2. Pet. 3. 16. Compare what they write in one place with that which they write in another note the occasion marke the end discerne the aduersarie they haue to deale with consider the straine of their moued affections acknowledge their tropes and figures of speech you shall finde the Fathers to yeeld you but small helpe and to be but slender patrones of your apostasie on the contrary you shall perceiue that as wee haue the eldest antiquity for proofe whereof we cite the records of Scripture so haue wee the body of all consequent antiquity in all matters of faith touching the Deitie the Trinitie prouidence touching Christ his person natures offices mediation and our redemption by him touching the holie Ghost and his operation in the Church â—ouching the Catholike Church the communion of Saints and all necessarie parts thereof touching remission of sinnes touching the resurrection and eternall life In other matters if some where we varie from the Fathers as they varied one from another and some of them from themselues we haâ—e their leaues I haue before shewed you what difference Cont. Iulian. Pelag. lib 1. Augustine makes betweene Fundamenta fides Alia de quibus doctrissimi atque optimi Catholicae regulae defensores salua fidei compage non consonant betweene the Foundations of faith and other pointes whereabout the learned stayd best defenders of the Catholike rule doe not agree yelw â—hout impeachment to the frame of faith To your vaine pretence of our consent in any point of your Popish faith enough hath beene said before As for the Scriptures you haue them indeene and you keepe them so close that neither your selues wil search them as you ought nor suffer those that wold You banish the
your owne putting falsly yet neither can you so hide your owne shame nor dazell the eyes of the godly by casting the mist of your owne deuise before them The question therefore is not as you say Whether for the true sense of the Scriptures we should not rather beleeue the auncient Fathers then those that liue in our daies neither onely whether Scriptures or Fathers deserue more credit which is but a consequence following vpon that which you affirme touching the interpretation of Scriptures by the consent of Fathers as an infallible rule but this is indeede the question betweene vs and you Whether the Scriptures inspired of God in all fundamentall points both concerning faith and manners be not so cleere and plaine that they do sufficiently interpret themselues against which cleere interpretation none other is to be receiued from what authoritie so euer it come We affirme you deny And by denial make the interpretations of men of more credit then the interpretation of scriptures We haue the word of God on our side Ps 19. 7. The testimonie of the Lord is true and giueth wisedome to the simple 2. Tim. 3. 15. The Scriptures are able to make wise vnto saluation Ioh. 5. 39. Search the Scriptures for in them you thinke to haue eternall life and they testifie of me The men of Berea searched the Scriptures to trie those things which Paul spake which had bene verie vainly done if the Scriptures had not bin a leere light vnto them to discerne of all necessarie doctrines We haue the godly Father S. Augustine cleere for vs in his Quaeapertè c. In those things which are euidently set down in the Scriptures are al those points found which coÌ„teine faith maners of life This being the state of the questioÌ„ let all godly men see whether it be not a reproch to the Spirit of God to accuse his word of such darkenes and obscurity that for the greatest part of the Church of God is not able to vnderstand it no not in the principall matters of faith and godlinesse Could not the Spirit of God in the Scriptures speake to the vnderstanding of the simple you will say yes but perhaps he would not Our Sauiour Christ giueth thankes to his Father for reuealing the doctrine of the kingdome of heauen to Babes and Matth. 11. 25. hiding it from the wise The Apostle Paul saith If our Gospel he hid it is hid in them that perish in whom the God of this world 2 Cor. 4. 3. hath blinded their eies that is of the vnbeleeuers that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them The sheepe of Christ heare the voice of Christ and know it from the voice of strangers and therefore will not follow strangers How Ioh. 10. 4. 5. 27. could the sheepe of Christ who now heare his voice onely in the scriptures know his voice from the voice of strangers if the scriptures were of purpose written obscurelie yea let all reasonable men consider whether it be not a sandie foundation to build our faith vpon forsaking the scriptures inspired of God to depend vpon mens lips especially the eternall word of God hauing branded all men with Psal 116. 11. Rom. 3. 4. Psal 146. 3. Ier. 17. 5. this marke that all men are â—ers and therefore expresly commanding not to trust in any child of man yea cursing euery man that putteth his trust in man Augustine answering to an obiection of the Donatists pretending to be written against him by a cheife man of the Catholikes besides that he chargeth that epistle to be false counterfaite answereth thus Muliò minus c. Much lesse doth the Catholike Church Cont. Crescon lib. 3. cap. 80. regard it whose cause we plead against you from which confidently resting vpon so many diuine testimonies no humane testimonies of any maÌ„ be they true or false can take away that truth which it inioyeth forbeare such things I am but one man the Churches cause is â—n hand amoÌ„g vs not mine the Churches I say which hath learned of her redeemer to put her trust in no maÌ„ To conclude make not the simple people beleeue that we bring into coÌ„parison the interpretations of this age with the interpretations of the ancient Fathers which is a meere calumnious slander of yours We compare not mens interpretations with mens but Gods with mens God hath so tempered the Scriptures that things plainly spokeÌ„ do interpret others not so plaine 2. Cor. 3. 5. That the faith of Gods children should not bee in the wisedome of men but in the power of God Let the cause question be thus propounded and then none of the sheepe of Christ will euer make question of the matter PAPIST Fourthly concerning generall Councels I say that they cannot possiby erre in matters of faith for then might we lawfully disobey them and Christ willeth vs to take him as an Heathen or a Publicane that will not obey the Church then also should Hell gates preuaile against it contrarie to our Sauiours promise Then were Matth. 18. 17. Matth. 16. 18. 1. Tim. 3. 15. it not also the pillar and ground of truth as S. Paul affirmeth We therefore that imbrace the definitions of generall Councels possesse the true sense of the Scriptures and not the Protestants that refuse to stand to their iudgement PROTESTANT If Augustine said true as he is before alleaged that the former general Councels haue bin corrected by the later then surely in his iudgment the former must erre and one of them without doubt did erre But what say you to the determination of the Councell of Constance and Basile which you deny not to haue beene generall by whom the Pope is made De Baptis cont Donat. lib. 2. c. 3. inferior to the Councell Did they erre in it or not Albertus Pighiâ—s spareth not to affirme that they decreed plainelie against nature against the manifest Scriptures against all antiquitie and against the catholike faith of Christ So when generall Councels determine not for your tooth you will not sticke to charge them with error and shifts enough you haue to auoide them either they were not gathered by the Pope or not subscribed by the Pope or thinges were violently caried in them as your Melchior Canus obiecteth against Lib. 5. cap. vlt. diuerse Councels and specially against the sixt generall Councel in Trullo which in many points distasteth you And when the account is cast vp it is the Pope that cannot erre for those onely determinations of Councels go for current with you that are confirmed by the head which is the Pope But let vs see your strong reasons whereby you prooue that generall Councels cannot erre First you say Then might we disobey them And Christ willeth vs to take him as an heathen and a publican that will not heare the Church Let vs see your reason in forme If generall Councels may erre then may we disobey them
A GODLY AND LEARNED ANSWER TO a lewd and vnlearned Pamphlet INTITVLED A few plaine and forcible Reasons for the Catholike Faith against the Religion of the Protestants By RICHARD WOODCOKE Batchellor of Diuinitie 2. COR. 4. 3. 4. If our Gospell hid it is hid to them that are lost In whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds c. LABORE ET CONSTANTIA LONDON Printed by N. O. for Iohn Bache and Nicholas Bourne and are to be sold at his shop vnder the Royall Exchange 1608. TO THE RIGHT WORSHIPFVLL SIR ALEXANDER HAMPDEN KNIGHT AND TO THE WHOLE Worshipfull and auncient Familie of the HAMPDENS in Buckingham Shire RIght Worshipfull it is now almost a yeare and a halfe since there came to my knowledge a Popish Pamphlet made and scattered abroad as it seemeth by some popish seedesman and I cannot tell whether some ligter in our quarters which yet I hold to be more then probable This pamphlet he intituled A few plaine and forcible Reasons for the Catholike Faith against the Religion of the Protetestants These reasons comming into the hands of a young Papist and Recusant as I take it whom this or some other deceitfull workeman had poysoned with the venome of Poperie He attributed so much thereunto that being moued by a faithfull and louing kinseman to renounce his popish recusancie and to come to the Church and become a Protestant he answered that he was vndoubteâ—ly perswaded that he held the right and therefore would persist therein and that because They were resolued and put out of doubt of the truth of their Religion by these foure Reasons The aforesaid yong Papist deliuered these 4 reasoÌ„s to a Minister of his acquâ—â—tance with purpose to haue them deliuered to a godly Preacher as a chalenge for so I interpret it by reason that he by his vigilant and industrious trauell stood much in their light that they could not spread their popish heresie so farrâ— and so freely as they desired This Pamphlet being thus come to his hands God offering opportunitie of a Christian meeting of some few of vs Fellow-ministers he brought forth vnto vs and specially requested me the Pamphlet being not very long a little that time to peruse it which in some part I did Being further moued by him to take it in hand and to frame and answer thereunto I alleaged for a tust excuse that there was in it nothing new but that which had beene often obiected and often answered And therefore as this Crambe I held not worth the answering so if any vnresolued were desirous to receiue satisfaction in the matter they might plentefully find it if they listed to peruse what before time had bene answered by many others Howbeit not so satisfying him for that it seemed good these 4 Reasons being so highly esteemed to discouer the vanity of them I was content to take them with me as he requested Yet without any certaine promise to deale with them the rather because I had then in hand some labor of writing in another argument which being finished finding by perusing them how full of vaine ostentation they were how subtle by a new fiction to pretend somewhat for Poperie out of the Religion of Protestants how pernicious by striuing to worke the highest resolution in Papists how closely the matter was conueted to get authoritie and credit to popish heresie by these Corner creeping reasons which seemed already to be made familiar to the vulgar sort I thought it a point of charitie plainly and demonstratiuely so to lay open the vanity of them as euen the vulgar sort whose iudgement was already captiuated by these reasons might be able to discerne the truth of my answer Many things in the same arguments hâ—â—e bâ—na herâ—tofore copiously and learnedly written by sundry graue Diuines which yet in one respect or other being aboue the reach of common Christians haue either not come to their hands or exceeded the measure of their capacitie For their sakes therefore haue I chiefly trauelled not to speake much but to speake plainely and as neere as I could the point of the obâ—ection After I had finished my first Copie I was constrained to write it the second time hauing no other meaning but to returne my written answer to my godly brother of whom I receiued the Copie of the 4. Reasons so to communicate it if he thought there were any that might receiue satisfaction by it The young Papist that deliuered abroad the Reasons had before boasted that because the Reasons had rested some time as he thought in the hands of him to whom they first came vâ—answered therefore he was sassured that they could not be answered The truth is that before I could obteine leysure to take them in hand or was indeed fully resolued so to do there passed one quarter of a yeare and more and when I had finished the answer I made no haste as to some is knowne to write the second copie When at conuenient times I had finished it I sent it to be deliuered in writing and I vnderstand accordingly it was and came to sight as of some other so of that very Papist who was the instrument to giue abroad the Reasons who as the maner of them is hauing read some three or foure leaues flung it vp and made a tush at it saing He could answer the booke himselfe And not vnlike he could after their fashion euery child and audacious woman amongst them presuming to speake Fathers and Doctors as if their idoâ—atrous Priests and familiars did speake in them My godly brother hauing iust cause to suspect that the sayd popish Reasons were dispersed and considering that it was very hard for one written copie to serâ—e for all that were corrupted by them perswaded me to suffer â—y answer to deprinted I did as he knoweth not hastily intertaine his motion but wished to haue the aduise of some other of grauity godlinesse and learning from whom receiuing incouragement I yet made no hast being vnwilling in such satietie of bookes to increase the number especially hauing nothing to say but what had bene better said before Now at last perceiuing it to be desired and expected of those whom worthily I respect that I should permit my answer such as it is to be imprinted I haue yeelded my poore seruice in this little booke to the censure of the Church of God to the instruction of the seduced if it so please God and haue exposed it to the vttermost calumniation of the restlesse aduersarie who like raging sea is alwayes foaming vp his owne shame and casteth vp continually myre and dirt And because my ordinary ministerie hath now for some good time bene bestowed in that place where your Worship is an ordinary hearer considering also that the occasion hath sprung vp within the diuision of your Magistracie I haue presumed to offer vnto you and to publish in your name this small fruit of my extraordinary labors for remembring that worthy Griffith
Hampden Esquire of blessed memory who first called me to this place and likewise his sonne of great hope William Hampden by whom I receiued much comfort and incouragement in my Ministerie whose blessed end was to me no smalzeale of Gods blessing vpon my poore labors and now acknowledging Gods fauour towards me who hauing taken away hath supplied your Worship resolute in your selfe and in your worthy seruice for the truth of whom I haue receiued more then common loue For which in all thankfulnesse I render my selfe bound I thought it my duty to dedicate these my poore indeuors to your worshipfull selfe and Name Beseeching you to accept this my slender gift as a testimony of that due respect which worthily I beare towards you I pray God long to continue the honour of your whole house both in your selfe present and in all the the hopes posteritie and especially to make the long continued honor which in this life you haue eternall in the kingdome of his Sonne From great Hampden in Buck. 1608. Your worships in all Christian duty bound and ready RICMARD WOODCOKE AN ANSVVER TO A LEVDE AND VNLEARNED PAMPHLET SENT ABROAD IN WRITING BY SOME POPISH CORNER-CREEPER INTITVLED A few plaine and forcible reasons for the Catholike faith against the Religion of the Protestants The first Reason PAPIST THE Church of Christ continueth for Matth. 16. 18. 28 20. euer as is plaine in the Gospell confessed of all sides But the Protestants congregation Luk. 1. 33. hath not continued for euer and our Church hath Therefore not their congregation but our Church is the true Church of Christ PROTESTANT FIrst I answer to the whole syllogisme then to each part The whole syllogisme is faultie and sophisticall because there are in it quatuor termini First the Church of Christ viz. Catholike and inuisible Secondly the Protestants congregation viz. particular and visible Thirdly continueth for euer viz. inuisibly Fourthly hath not continued for euer viz. visible Wherefore the propounding of one viz. The Church Catholike and inuisible and assuming of another viz. Some particular and visible Church Affirming of the Catholike Church that it continueth for euer inuisible denying of the Protestants congregation that it hath not continued for euer visible You play fast and loose and like a Iugler deceiue the eyes of the simple For it is all one as if you should thus reason The true Sunne shineth continually Our Sunne shineth not continually Therefore our Sunne is not the true Sunne The Sunne indeed shineth continually but not in all mens sight And the true Church continueth for euer but neither wholly nor alwayes visible Our sun shineth not continually viz. to vs or in our fight The Protestant congregations haue not continued for euer to wit visible and apparant Now as he that concludes our sunne not to be the true sunne because it shines not alwayes in our sight proues himselfe no better then a Sophister so he that concludes the Protestant congregations to be no part of the true Church because they haue not continued for euer visible as now they are shewes himselfe a deceitfull worker and can deceiue none but the vnlearned and vnstable who for want of knowledge in the Scriptures haue not their senses exercised to discerne betweene good and euill betweene light and darknesse betweene truth and falshood Next to each part I answer and first to the proposition Where you say the Church of Christ continueth for euer if you meane the Catholike Church the whole company of the faithfull past present and to come in all places and times ioyned to the fellowship of innumerable Angels and Heb. 12. 22. 23. 24. to Iesus the Mediator as the head by the inuisible communion of one spirit I graunt you this Church continueth for euer howbeit knowne onely to God who onely knoweth 2. Tim. 2. 19. who are his and so the long continued visibilitie of your falsly called Catholike Church is not an argument to proue that the garish strumpet of Rome which hath made all nations drunken with the cup of her fornications is the true Reuel 17. 2. Church much lesse the Catholike Church and therefore out of your owne proposition rightly vnderstood I conclude against you The Catholike Church is not visible The Romish Church is visible Therfore the Romish Church is not the Catholike Church To your assumption The Protestants congregation hath not continued for euer If you meane the particularity of any congregation that now is called Protestant do you not then see that you fight with your owne shadow For we knowe and confesse that our particular congregations as now they stand haue not continued for euer but haue bene gathered ordered and established some earlier some later as God gaue the opportunitie and as by the light of the Gospell they were able to dispell the Cimmerian darknesse of Poperie But if by the Protestant congregation you meane as you ought the doctrine faith and worship of God now profesled and practised in the Protestant congregations we say your assumption is false and for proofe hereof appeale to the footsteps of all the particular Churches recorded in the Scriptures and to the Apostolike doctrine which they receiued If the now Protestant congregations do continue in the Apostles doctrine in fellowship in breaking of Acts 2. 42. bread and prayer as the Churches of Ierusalem Antioche Galatia Corinth c. did then the Protestant congregation in those things wherin consisteth the true being of a Church hath continued for euer and doth and shall continue maugre all popish heresie and treason And therefore thus we returne your Argument against you That church which cotinueth for euer is the true church of Christ The Protestant Church hath continued for euer doth and shall continue for euer because the word of God which they hold inuiolably abideth for euer Therefore the Protestant Church is the true Church of Christ PAPIST That their congregation hath not continued for euer is most plaine For where as there hath bene since Christ 1600. yeares let themset downe but two for euerie hundreth years and so in all but 32. and we will vrge them no further PROTESTANT The mouthes of Papists are alwayes open like hell and the graue they still craue and are neuer the fuller This old stale demaund hath beene alreadie often answered But would you haue two congregations or two only persons for euery hundreth yeare Before the captiuitie of Gods Church vnder Popish tyrannie let the godly Martyrs Bishops and Pastors whom histories do record and whose writings are extant testifie the faith of those congregations wherein they liued and serued in the chiefest points of doctrine which we maintaine against Papists That famous Iewell of blessed memorie hath to your euerlasting shame maintained it and if the God of this world had not blinded 2. Cor. 4. 3. 4. your eyes that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto you Nay if the iust
the thing is so euident and certaine That Saint Gregorie likewise coined not a new religion but kept that which by continuall succession descended vnto him from Saint Peter is as sure and certaine for if he had all the Christian world would haue exclained against him and yet no such complaint is to be found in anie Historie or writer but all highlie commend him for his holinesse and learning and in our English calender he is inrolled for a Saint and the like we may saie of all his predecessors for none of them was euer noted by anie to haue degenerated in anie one article of faith from the religion of their forefathers and the Apostles and well knowen it is that 32. of the first were glorious Martyrs and shed their bloud for the name of Christ PROTESTANT That your popish Church hath continued 1600 yeares is so certaine as it is that your later Popes haue beene and are like those 32 Martyrs whose emptie number you bring forth to gaine credit vnto that degenerate rable that haue succeeded them not in shedding their owne bloud for the truth of Christ as they did but in spilling much Christian bloud partly about strange and vniust quarrels partly by treasonable and rebellious commotions of their owne raising partly by bloudy and fiery persecucions And therefore the succession of your Popes to those Martyrs is noe more credit to you then succession to Moses was to the Scribes and the Pharisees or succession to Aaron was to Annas Caiaphas As in place they succeed godly Bishops so in doctrine they succeed the Scribes and Pharisees and many Heretikes in irreligion and prophanes they succeed Lucian and Porphyrie in tyranny and cruelty Annas and Cayphas and the old persecuting Emperors of Rome into Reuel 13. 15. whose dead image they haue put life againe That which the Apostle Paul foretold of the successors to the Bishops of Ephesus that of themselues should men arise speaking perâ—erse Acts. 20. 30. things to draw Disciples after them hath too long beene verified of the successors in place to those first holy Bishops of Rome And were that true which you say that none of the predecessors to Gregorie the first were euer noted by any to haue degenerated in any one article of faith froÌ„ the religion of their forefathers the Apostles which is not vnknoweÌ„ to your selues to be most false for Alfonsus de Castro doth frankly coÌ„fesse that of Liberius the Pope it is manifest he was an Arriav that Anastasious did fauor the Nestorians Aduers heres lib. cap. 4. he that hath read histories doubteth not yeâ— if the successors of Gregorie haue bin iustly detected some for Atheists some Coniurers Necromancers some for Impoysoners some for villanous cruelty vpon the bodies of the quicke dead some notorious for bastardy besides other odious sins generally bribers Symonists Epicures more like to Sardanapalus or Heliogabolus then Peter or Paul must their succession in place to them to whom all other things they are most vnlike carie the Church of God on their sides your owne silence passing by the mention of all the successors to Gregorie the first by the space of a thousand yeares implies a confession that of those there are some at least degenerate from the religion of their forefathers and the Apostles which if with any face you could denie you would haue saide as much in them praise with lesse truth as you haue done of the former but vntruely But I suppose you cannot be ignorant that your owne Doctor Genebrarde hath Chron. lib. 4. verse 10. marked about a fiftie Popes for the space almost of 150 yeares from Iohn the 8. to Leo. 9. as reuolters wholy from the vertue of their ancestors and saith they were Apostatici apostatici potius quam apostolici Apostaticall rather then Apostolicall yea he calleth them monstrous which also Platina witnesseth with a witnesse of three speciall ones among the 50. Benedict 9. Siluester 3. and Gregorie 6. whom he calleth tria teterrima monstra three most hideous monsters what might be said of Iohn the 8. otherwise Pope Ioan Iohn the 12. two other of the 50. of Gregorie 7. Alexander 3. Bâ—niface 8. Iohn 23. To shew how vnlike they were to the Martyrs their Predecessors in place you cannot be ignorant and therefore you did warily to make no noise of these and the like least their very names might staine their succession and repeale that glory which you thought to get by the fame of Gregorie your Kalendar Saint touching whom whether he coyned any new religion or not or whether hee kept that which by continuall succession descended from Saint Peter how should we more certainly know then by enquiring into that religion which Saint Peter and Saint Paul taught and that not following vncertaine tradition which hath proued the Author of deceiuable fables but the certaine 2 Pet. 1. 1â— 19. line of holy scripture which leades vs to Christ himselfe who onely knew the minde of his father and hath in his written word reuealed it to his Church For as Ciprian saith Si ad diuinae traditionis caput originem reuertamur cessat Ad Pompei contr epist Steph error humanus If we returne to the head and beginning of diuine tradition that is the doctrine which God himselfe deliuered humane error is put downe which that auncient Father by an excellent similitude setteth out thus Si canalis quae c. If the conduit pipe which before did runne in aboundance do suddenlie fatle do not men vse to goe to the fountaine there to know the reason why it faileth c. Quod nunc facere opportot Dei sacerdotes c. which saith he the Priests of God keeping Gods commandements must now do that if the truth haue wauered or failed in auie thing we maie returne to the originall of our Lord and to the tradition of the Gospel and of the Apostles that thence maie arise the reason of our doing from whence the order originall did first spring Which way to trie the truth so long as you do so diligently shun and take such paines to bring all religion to the touch of mans vncertaine authority what do you else but bewray a fearefull and guiltie conscience that dare not stand to the euidence of Gods word but in a suite of life and death saluation and damnation do willingly suffer the true Charters of diuine record to be lost or at least raked vp in the dust and bring in old men that can say nothing but by heare-say nay rather yong men now to tell what they haue heard off sometime said by old men vppon their onely bare heare-say So might the Iewes haue taken the law from the Scribes and Pharisees mouthes and haue learned to loue their friends hate their enemies with Matth. 6. 43. 2 Kings 22. 8. other Pharisaicall lessons and let the law of Moses lie in the dust as it had done
Pardons Real presence Eare-shrift c. Therefore the Church of Rome is not the church of God The second Reason PAPIST That is the true faith and religion of Christ which the ancient and learned Fathers tanght maintained in the floursshing time of the Primitiue Church that is within the first 600 yeares next after Christ and this is so true that our Aduersaries themselues confesse it For M. Iewell sometime of Sarisbury cried out in this maner O Gregory ô Leo ô Augustine ô Ambrose c if we be deceiued you haue deceiued vs. The Church of England In his chaleng Sermon at Paules crosse also continueth their memorie in euerie Kalender as it doth of the blessed Apostles which fauour no question it would not afford them if it iudged them Heretikes or false teachers And as no Protestant I thinke dare say that they bee damned in hell for hereticall or false doctrine So most sure I am that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation upon them that liued so neere Christ then vpon such as liue now and be partiall in their owne cause PROTESTANT The floure of your reasons is now gone and indeede a floure for the bright beames of truth shining froÌ„ the Sunne of righteousnesse in the firmament of his word hath dimmed the grace and defaced the beautie of this your vaine best reason The second reason comming to rescue the former at vnawares thinking to smite his enemie wounded his fellowe to the heart For if the long continued pompe of your supposed Church be proofe enough that yours for sooth is the true Church and if the priuiledge of the true church which you chalenge to yours be that it cannot erre and consequently we are to beleeue what your Church teacheth what needed you then to haue abated this last 1000 yeares and to appeale to the flourishing time of the Primitiue church within the first 600 years Surely this is a plaine coÌ„fession against your selues that your long coÌ„tinued Church comes much short in dignity credit and authority of those 600 yeares Else why do you not rest contented with your owne testimony as being the preseÌ„t Oracle of the church but are faine to borrowe proofe of the Primitiue Church considering that if long continuance be the matter though your persons be yonger and your age but of yesterday yet by the addition of so many yeares your Church hath a grauer head and surely more wrinckles in her face then in those former times she had If therefore the ancienter testimonies do more stroÌ„gly proue the truth then is theremore certain trial of truth to be fetcht froÌ„ the early beginnings of the church then froÌ„ the long continued doating age as plainly appeareth of your Church And surely so did the Fathers within those 600 yeares they prooued their doctrines and maintained euery truth not by the face of long time but by the authority of the first times wherein Christ and his Apostles vndoubtedly taught the truth and by vndoubted records of diuine inspiration that is the holie scriptures commended the same to all posterity Augustine Epist 19. ad Hieron Ego solis Scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur c. I haue learned to yeeld only to those books of scripture which are now called Canonical that feare heuer that I firmely beleeue no author of theÌ„ in writing to haue coÌ„mitted anie error others I so reade that how holie or learned soeuer they be I do not therefore thinke a matter to bee true because they so thought but because they were able to perswade me either by those canonical authors or by probable reason that it swarneth not from truth And therefore ad Vincentium Donatist Epist 48. Nâ—lâ— contra diuina testimonia c. Haue no will or desire out of the writings of Bishops togather cauils against the diuine testimonies first because this kind of writings is distinguished from the cannon c. But let vs see your reason That is the true faith which the ancient and learned Fathers taught in the first 600 yeares But they were of our religion and not of the Protestants Therefore ours is the true faith and not the Protestants First is your Proposition vniuersall or indefinite If you say The ancient and learned Fathers taught the true faith in all points necessarie to saluation we will not sticke with you but if you say that withall they taught nothing swaruing from the true faith neither can we yeeld it vnto you neither do the Fathers themselues yeeld it one to another neither doth any one of them presume to chalenge so much to him self neither wil your selues I am sure generally also affirme You know the contrary of Tertullian Cyprian and Origene Augustine did not in all things accord with Ierome nor allow whatsoeuer himselfe had written and these things are not vnknowne to you nor vnconfessed by you Wherefore if you will haue your proposition vniuersally taken it is false that whatsoeuer the Fathers taught is the true faith If indefinitly then will it fall out to be onely particular of some things suppose the most things that the ancient learned Fathers taught that they agreed with the true faith So that if you could proue that your Popish faith consisting in the points of your nouelties vnknowne to Christ and his Apostles and of your Apostafie from the true faith did in some points agree with some opinions of the learned Fathers yet would it not follow that yours is the true faith vnlesse you could manifestly proue that the Fathers therein held the true faith For your Popish faith partly hath an apish imitation of some outworne rites of ancient times as Vnctions Exorcismes c. partly carcheth hold of some of their errors as prayer for the dead partly proceedeth on boldly to affirme of those things whereof they spake doubtfully as Purgatory partly peruerteth and abuseth their words against their meanings sometime taking that literally which they meant tropically as Sacrifice Oblation Priest Altar c. sometime wresting their words from that good sense which they beare by proportion of their writings to that bad and absurd sense which since you haue violently drawne them to as Merit Poenitentiam agere Confession Satisfaction c. Contrariwise the Protestants religion is in substance the same which the ancient learned Fathers taught wherein the Protestants therefore follow them because they haue followed the Scriptures as hath bene often mainteined proued and demonstrated to your stopped eares and hardened hearts Briefly the Proposition vniuersally vnderstood is false The Assumption vniuersally vnderstood of all their faith and religion is false of your Popish faith Therefore the conclusion followes not But let vs see how strongly or rather straungely you proue your Proposition First you say it is so true that your aduersaries confesse it for M. Iewell sometime of Sarisburie c. That godly and learned Bishop was confident that you could not bring any one sufficient sentence out of
any Father or Councell for the space of 600. yeares after Christ to proue any of those points named in that chalenge not that he made Fathers or Councels the rule of his faith but rather affirmeth with Augustine Sancta Scriptura nostrae doctrinae regulam De bono viduit cap. 1. The holy scripture pitcheth the rule of our doctrine Rom. 1. 16. figit and if he had found either in Fathers or Councels any thing swaruing from this rule he would haue forsaken them and cleaued to the Scriptures as he hath told you in his learned Apologie We know that the Gospell of Iesus Christ is the power of God vnto saluation and that therein consisteth eternall life And as Paul warneth vs we do not heare no Gal. 1. 8. not an Angel of God though he come from heauen if he go about to pull vs from any part of this Doctrine Secondly you say the Church of England continueth their memorie in the Kalendar as it doth of the blessed Apostles c. What meane you so to ouer-reach doth the Church of England put no difference between them and the Apostles for so much you would imply and must or else it comes too short of your purpose The Church of England preserueth their memorie as of godly and painefull men that bestowed themselues to serue the Church of God but yet it doth not lift them aboue the degree of men and therefore doth not exempt them from erring nor their writings from errors which immunitie is proper to the Scriptures inspired of God and cannot be ascribed to any writings of men neuer so godly or learned so long as they are written onely by a priâ—at spirit Neither is euery teacher that faileth in some point of truth to be condemned as a false teacher much lesse as an heretike and therefore it may be doubted and denied that all that the Fathers of those times haue written is true and yet they not reputed either as heretikes or false teachers Thirdly you say No Protestant you thinke dare say that they are damned in hell No verily and yet you picking out those errors which vnto them were veniall because they built vpon the foundation which is Iesus Christ alone and making them principles of your faith and religion and laying them indeed as another foundation besides Christ may be damned in so doing except you repent Fourthly Most sure you say you are that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ theu vpon such as liue now and are partiall in their owne cause Men of reason in matters of reason may relie vpon men But men of faith in matters of saluation wil relie only vpon Christ the Author finisher and foundation of our faith the Heb. 12. 2 1 Cor. 3. 11. Heb. 2 10. 1 Tim. 2. 5. Act. 7. 37. Iohn 14. 6. Prince and Mediat or of our saluation the only undoubted Prophet and teacher of the true and vndoubted way vnto eternall life in a word the onely way the onely truth the onely life But see with what cunning you deale Your simple sheepe must relie their saluation vpon those Fathers who those Fathers were what they wrote and how they shall vnderstand them you must be their interpreters So in effect they must relie their saluation vpon you which is against your owne rule For you liue now and are iustly to be supposed partiall in your owne cause Againe in this your comparison of persons vpon whom we ought rather to relie our faith marke how slily you shut out Christ and his word and seeke to cast an imputation vpon the Protestants that they teach men to rely their faith vpon them which is as far from them as it is from you to teach your Disciples to relie their faith vpon Christ and his word No no we counsell the faithfull as Christ our Master doth to search the Scriptures and with the Apostle to Iohn 5. 39. build their faith vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Eph 2. 20. whereof Iesus Christ is the head and corner stone Lastly God open your eies to acknowledge the strength of truth which out of your owne mouth beareth witnes against your selfe you say that men ought rather to relie their saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ Ought not then all faithfull men most of all to relie their saluation vppon them that liued neerest vnto Christ And who liued neerer him then the holie Apostles and Euangelistes Or what writinges came more immediatly from him then theirs especially considering that these were chosen by him selfe to be his witnesses vnto all the ends of the world and Act. 1. 8. Eph. 4. 13 vnto the end of the world by the writings inspired of God Wherefore that you may see how willing we are to accorde with you in the truth we confesse and graunt that faithfull men ought to relie their saluation rather vpon Psal 19. 4. Rom. 10. 18. those that saw the Lord Iesus Christ and were his witnesses and haue stretched out the line of their writinges to the worlds end theÌ„ vpon any or all that haue beene since whether they be Councels Popes Bishops or Doctors of what place holines or learning soeuer Thus forcibly haue you proued your Proposition that whatsoeuer the fathers of the first 600. years wrot is thetrue faith for that must be the extent of your proposition or else it will not serue your turne the best and strongest part of your proofe which you haue set in the last place makes most against your selfe as hath bin shewed Now then let vs come to your Assumption PAPIST But as certaine it is that they were of our religion and not of the Protestants which is so euident that no man which peruseth their works can make anie doubt thereof and to giue an instance Saint Austen that liued 1200. yeares agoe and was so wonderfull for learning that happilie since the Apostles time the world had neuer his like one whome the Protestantes also soeme most to admire and like of and this ancient holie and learned Father beleeued and taught them yea and the whole Church of his time aâ— we beleeue teach now If any maÌ„ make doubt hereof let him read his 22. book and 8. chap. De ciuitate Dei he shal find as much as I affirme concerning prayer to Saints reuerence to Relikes and Pilgrimage to holie places three of the most odious points as they thinke in all our religion PROTESTANT To proue that the Fathers of the first 600. were of your religion and not of the Protestants you tell vs that one of them S. Augustine was so Doth this proue that all were so Next how proue you that Saint Augustine was so because as you pretend he held some points of your religion as Praier to Saints reuerence to Relikes Pilgrimage to holie places praier for the dead Do these points coÌ„prehend al your religion Againe may it not
are your expositions Your last meanes is the Decrees of generall Councels Can you bring vs the Decrees of generall councels touching all Scriptures what sense they doe and ought to beare If not then belike there is no knowne sense of any other Scriptures then such as generall Councels haue expounded the rest are buried in obscurity But Augustine will not yeeld to that who among other meanes to finde out the true interpretation of Scriptures aduising diligently to search for both De Doctr. Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. such precepts of good life and rules of faith as are plainely set downe in the Scriptures whereof the more a man findes the more capable he is vnderstand the Scriptures yeelds this reason of his aduise In his enim c. For in those words which are euidently set down in the Scriptures are found al those things which containe faith and maners of life Next do generall Councels all agree in one in this also Augustine is a witnes against you writing against the Donatistes who pleaded Cyprians letters Cyprians sentence Cyprians councell But Augustine preferreth the holy Scripture aboue all the writings of Bishops yea aboue all generall Councels allowing the Scriptures alone to haue certaintie and vndoubted truth in them but all the writings of Bishops yea the determinations of Councels to be subiect to the correction of other Bishops after them and likewise of other and later Councels his wordes touching the Councels are Ipsa enim concilia c. For the verie Councels De baptis cont Douat lib. 2. cap. 3. which are held through euerie Region or Prouince doe without all doubt giue place to the authoritie of plenarie or generall Councels which are held from out of all the Christian world and the verieplenarie or generall Councels the former oftentimes are amended by the later when by any experiment of things that is open which was kept close and that is knowen which did lie hid What could haue beene more plainely spoken to bring into order not onely all mens writings but euen generall Councels also to be iudged by the Scriptures and not to iudge ouer the Scriptures Wherefore were it true that you so vainlie boast of that you had the consent of ancient Fathers and the Decrees of generall Councels for you yet were these no sure foundation to build our faith vpon Neither doe wee take it to be any disgrace vnto vs that we refuse to receiue our faith and vnderstanding in the mysterie of godlinesse from men because wee feare the curse which is against the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arme yea rather wee account it an honour to vs both before God and man Ierem. â— â— that wee together with the whole true church of God are built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone that we trie euerie spirit by the Scriptures whether it be of God or no that we prooue Eph. 2. 20. 1. Ioh. 4. 1. 1. Thes 5. 21. Act. 17. 11. Ioh. 5. 39. Esa 8. 20. all things as the men of Beraea did by searching the Scriptures according to the commaundement of Christ and holde that which is good that we haue recourse to the law and to the testimonie and whosoeuer speake not according to that word we holde them to be in darknesse and to haue no light in them From this hold you shall neuer driue vs and yet thanks be to God you haue hitherto beene beaten at your owne weapon and for the principall points of faith and religion haue beene put to silence by a cloud of testimonies both out of auncient Fathers and Councels howsoeuer your brasen foreheads cannot blush nor your leaden hearts relent but still you will crie Fathers Fathers Councels Councels PAPIST Secondly to giue more light and force to the former reason concerning the aucthoritie of Fathers I say that one or two or a few of them may be deceiued and therefore such particular opinions we admit not and so refuse S. Cyprian about rebaptization so we make no doubt but the vniforme and generall consent of them liuing in diuerse and farre distant places and at diuerse times cannot but proceede from the Spirit of all truth that gouerneth the Church and therefore S. Austine speaking of the Fathers that liued Contr. Iuli. lib. 2. cap. 10. before his time hath these excellent words That which they found in the Church they helde fast that which they learned they taught that which they receiued of their fathers the same they deliuered to their Children S. Paul likewise saith that Christ hath Eph. 4. 11. 14. giuen Pastors and Doctors that flourished in the primitiue church and the Protestants cannot deuie but that with their pens and labours they did defend the faith against the Arians Pelagians Donatistes and manie more such pestilent heretikes PROTESTANT First we haue shewed you before that by the iudgement of Cardinall Caietane whom Andradius defends in it it is lawfull yea and necessarie sometimes in interpretation of Scriptures to leaue the streame of the Fathers and follow a diuerse interpretation from them all which might at no hand be admitted if as you presume wherein they generally consent they had beene all guided by the spirit of truth Andradius doth not onely say so but giues good reason for it The literall sense of Scripture saith he doth onelie yeeld arguments to confirme points of religion But the Fathers in infinite staies of the old testament chieflie do leaue the literall sense and follow the tropologicall or allegoricall sense In deciding of Doctrines then which is to be done by the litterall sense what helpe shall we haue from the consent of Fathers who very seldome giue the litterall sense Another reason hee giues that the Fathers in giuing the sense of Scriptures haue giuen verie diuerse sense and vnlike one to another Where then shall wee finde that generall and vniforme consent that you speake of Secondly the spirit of all truth neither guideth the whole church nor any member therof otherwise or by any other instinct then by from the holy Scriptures whereby euery spirit is to be tried So farre then as the Fathers either seuerally or ioyntly doe accord with the manifest truth of Scriptures we follow them without doubting whatsoeuer they deliuer swaruing manifestly from the Scriptures we leaue what they haue probably spoken we receiue as probable alwaies reuerencing their antiquitie gifts and labours but not accounting their iudgements the rule of our faith Thirdly you much abuse S. Augustine in drawing his words which yet serue not your turne from his meaning Lib. 3. cap. 7. manifestly set downe in other places Depeccat merit remiss hauing before alleaged against the Pelagians Cyprian Ierome he addeth this caueat I haue not recited these things to anie such end as if we leaned to the sentences of anie disputers whatsoeuer they were as to Canonicall authoritie but that
such like women as followed our Sauiour Christ and ministred vnto him and his of their substance For what power or authoritie Luk. 8. 3. had the Apostles to leade about such women after them but to leade about a wife they had power Besides the purpose of the Apostle is to shew that himselfe and Barnabas had right to put the Church to more charge by leading such a one about with them but if he had meant such women as following them in their iourneies ministred vnto them of their substance to haue such in their company had beene an ease and no charge to the Church the contrarie whereof the Apostle plainely expresseth in giuing reason why he and Barnabas might haue done so Who goeth a warfare at any time of his owne cost c. If vve haue sowen vnto you Verse 33. spirituall things is it a great matter if we reape your carnall The Church therefore of their carnal substance must haue borne the charge of such a sister lead about and therfore no doubt Math. 8. 14. the Apostle meant a wife who going with her husband there could be nothing said against it and for her husbands sake the Church must also prouide for her To which charge because the Apostle put them not when hee might haue done it hee hath therefore the more to say in his owne defence Fourthly the Scripture recording of Peter that hee was maried and auncient writers that other of the Apostles and Disciples were maried namely Ambrose in 2. Cor. 11. All the Apostles excepting Iohn and Paul had vvines and Eusebius hâ—st Eccles lib. 30. cap. 30. out of Clemens Alexandrinus of Peter Philip and as he saith Paul the Apostles words directly point at that liberty in them in the words as well as other Apostles and the brethren of the Lord and Cephas And verie plainly out of the report that Eusebius maketh out of Clemens euery maÌ„ may see that in those times the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was taken for a wife Paul saith hee in a certaine Epistle maketh mention of his wife whom hee therefore did not lead about with him that more easily and freelie he might performe his ministerie Howbeit if Paul were vnmaried yet is it no corruption so to translate his words for as much as hee had that libertie though he vsed it not Lastly you knowe that the Scripture saith Mariage is honourable amongst all men and the bed vndefiled What more Heb. 13. 4. cleare and full allowance can there be that Priests may lawfully marie except you will say that priesthood depriueth them of the honour of Gods ordinance which he hath sanctified to all men Hauing generall and speciall warrant for Priests mariage besides the place in question what need we force it you rather haue forced single life vpon Gods Ministers against his manifest word PAPIST If theÌ„ they be learned malition flie corrupt the text who wil trust them with the interpretation as for vnlearned Protestants how can they gather a true sense out of a corrupted sentence can a streight line be drawen by a crooked Rule PROTESTANT Nay rather if the Popish Rabbies haue first set vp many a crooked practise both in doctrine and Gods worship and then will haue the line of interpretotion drawen by the crooked rule of Popish practise secundum currentem Ecclesiae sensum Who will trust them to be interpreters of scriptures who are conspired to maintaine whatsoeuer their Synagogue hath corruptly practised For how can a streight line be drawen by a crooked rule or how can the vnlearned Papists haue any meanes to trie the true interpretatioÌ„ of scriptures euen in matters necessarie to saluation who must of necessity sel their soules into the hands of Popish Hucksters to receiue whatsoeuer sense of scriptures they thrust vpon them and aboue all must receiue Popish practise as their Creede and as the practise changeth so must the sense of Scriptures change and be one to day another to morrowe one this yeare another the next according to Cusanus his rule Intellectus currit cumpraxi The vnderstanding of the scriptures runneth with the practise which practise interpreteth the Nicol. Cusan de author eccles Conc. Sup. et cont scriptu scripture at one time after one sort at another time after another sort This is the constancie of Popish faith whereof Papists boast so much PAPIST Out of the premisses we may learne the cause why we haue such vnity in faith to be for that we acknowledge an infallible Iudge for the expounding of the Scriptures and though in other thinges wee haue dissention as fell out likewise betwixt Saint Paul and Barnabas and no time hath been free from such scandals yet we keep all one and the same Catholike faith through the world and the cause why the Protestants haue such mortal dissention in matters of faith without all hope of agreement is for that they acknowledge 1 Ioh. 4. 1. not any infallible and certaine Iudge for the interpretation of the scriptures For they will be tried by nothing but by the Scripture and if we presse them that the scriptures may be falsly expounded theÌ„ they repaire to the spirit and if we tell theÌ„ of Iohn that we must not beleeue euery spirit then for trial of the spirit back againe they post to the scripture and so if they be vrged on forward they runne round froÌ„ the scripture to the spirit froÌ„ the spirit to the scripture world without end And so whilest their spirits agree not togeither we see them about manie articles of faith as about the descending of Christ into hell about the lawfulnesse of Archbishops and Bishops like the campe of the Madianites to haue turned their weapons to mutuall destruction and to lie lugging together Iudges 7. by the eares in endlesse brawles and contentions PROTESTANT If it were true that you boast of that you haue such vnity of your Popish faith yet could you from such vnity no better proue the truth of your Religion then from the consent of the Israelites erecting the calfe in the wildernes or from the consent of the Iewish Synagogue against our Sauiour Christ crying Crucific him crucifie him or from the consent of all Israel in the daies of Achab and Iezabel being confederate against Elias alone you can prooue that the Calfe was the God that brought the people out of the land of Egypt or that Baal was the true God or that our Sauiour Christ was a deceiuer as the high Priestes termed him Of such vnity God hath forewarned vs to take heede by the Prophet Esay Say ye not a confederacie to all them to whom this people saieth a confederacie but rather to the law and to the testimonie Esa 8. 12. vers 20. ver 9 against which though the people be gathered together in beapes they shall be broken in peeces and though they take counsell together yet it shall bee brought to nought though they pronounce
and in sin hath my mother conceiued me it conuinceth that all the frame of the thoughts of Psal 51. 5. mans heart is onely euill continuallie that in vs that is in our flesh dwelleth no good thing it prooues vs to be dead in trespasses and sinnes and therefore to be the children of wrath Whereby we are stripped of all conceit of free will of all presumption Gen. 6. 5. of our owne righteousnes and is the most vniuersal schoolmaister to lead all men vnto Christ In this so high a principle of faith I say your Church and his children hauing either no faith at all or a faith of many colours and manie Eph. 2. 1. 3. shapes notwithstanding your infallible iudge boast no longer of your one and the same Cutholike faith in all the world Your vaine and foolish contumelie which you cast vpon the Protestants that for triall of the scriptures they repaire to the spirit and for triall of the spirit post backe againe to the scripâ—â—res and sorunne round from the Scriptures to the Spirit and from the Spirit to the Scriptures world without end bewraies in you great ignorance of our doctrine For we diuide not the Spirit from the Scriptures nor the Scriptures from the Spirit that we should be faine to runne or go from the one to the other onely in the Scriptures we heare or learne of the Spirit whatsoeuer we know in the Scriptures we know it by the teaching of Gods Spirit that speaketh in them whatsoeuer we learne of the Spirit we learne it by and out of the Scriptures when we repaire to the Sriptures we repaire to the Spirit and when we go to enquire of the Spirit we go to the Scriptures If the God of this worlde had not blinded your eies that the light of this truth cannot shine vnto you you would neuer haue vpbraided vs with posting to and fro and running round But because you tell vs of roundes I pray you see what roundes your selires make in a matter of Faith of greatest consequence in all your Religion you giue out this conclusion as an article Subesse roâ—â—no Poâ—tifici omni creaturae est Extr. com de Ma. ior c. obed â—nam Sactam de necessitate salutis To be subiect to the Pope of Roâ—â—e is nâ—cessaerie to saluation for euerie creature we require you to proue it you alleage that the Pope is the heade of the vniuersal Church we yet aske for proofe you bring vs Tues Peirus super hane petraÌ„ c. Thou art Peter and vpon this rocke I wil build my Church tibi dabo claues to thee I wil giue the keies of the kingdome of heauen pasce oues me as feed my sheep feed my lambes We tell you Peter is one stone in the building but no rock or if you will needes haue a rocke his confession or Christ whom heconfessed is the rocke or foundation whereon the Church is builded we tell you the keies were giuen to Peter not alone but to the rest of the Apostles and hee with them commanded to feede sheepe and lambes and further whatsoeuer was giuen to Peter extendeth not to the Pope who is not Peter you say that Peter receiued those honours for himselfe and his successors and that the Church is built vpon him and them as a rocke and that he for himselfe his successors receiued the keies and left them to the Pope of Rome who now is Shepheard ouer sheepe and lambes all this you will proue by the scriptures we râ—â—uire you to proue that the Scriptures haue this sense you fetch your proofe from the Fathers we bring the Fathers as cleerly yea more cleerely for our interpretation then you can for Concil Nicen. Conat Afric yours you thrust on forward to the CouÌ„cels we bring you the authority of Councels to make the Pope no more theÌ„ a peere among other Patriarkes yea to cutte him off from medling out of his Dioces now you post to Councels confirmed by the heade that is the Pope whom either with Conncels or without you make your only infallible Iudge Are you now where you began do you thus daunce in a rounde and tell vs of roundes The Pope is head of the vniuersall Church Who saith so the Scriptures who shall interpret the Scriptures the Fathers Fathers not agreeing who shall iudge betweene them Councels Councels agree not who then shall strike the stroke the Pope And so the Pope is heade of the Church because the Pope will be so With these rounds you haue made giddie and brai nesicke innumerable poore soules God in his mercie stablish their hearts with grace that their eies may see the pitte before they fall into it Now I pray you what be those matters of Faith wherein the Protestants haue such mortall dissention without any hope of agreement they are many you say reckon them that we see how many they be The descending of Christ into hell and the lawfulnes of Archbishops and Bishops Is the question about Archbishops Bishops a matter of faith among Papists it may well be so who hold the Popes supremacy for the first and chiefe yea in effect for all the articles of their faith but surely Protestants holde it onely for a matter of order appertaining to the externall gouernement of the Church which is farre from a matter of faith your many matters of faith then are come to but one and that such a one as in ancient times was no article of faith at all in your Romane Creede no nor yet receiued in the East Churches In. expos Symboli as Ruffinus affirmeth Sciâ—nauÌ„ est quod in Ecclesiae Romana Symbolo non habetur additum We must know that it is not found added in the Creede of the Romane Church neither is the canse receiued among the East Churches And being receiued there Epist 99. was little certainty of the sense and meaning of it Ruffinus takes it to be all one with Sepultus est he was buried Augustine De Genes ad Lit. lib. 12. cap. as is afore shewed denies that Abrahams bosome is any part of holl and else where confesseth that neuer yet found that it is called hell where the soules of the righteous do rest And so little light can be founde of any such conceite as Papists De Christi anima lib. 4. cap. 5. haue of Christs descending into hell that Bellarmine saith Non est necessaria presentia animae Christi c. The presence of Christs soule to inlighten the Fathers with the diuine vision of him is not necessarie yet it seemed to be of congruitio that it should be present while that was in doing He makes it not of necessity but of congruity and that but in seeming neither this is as touching the sense but a weake matter of faith to obiect vnto vs that we dissent about it For we dissent not about the words of the article but receiue it we are
thinke of Protestants whereas indeed if they had eyes to discerne of heresie or an Heretike they would rather applie it to Papistes But I heartily wish all blinded Papistes aduisedly to consider of the first conclusion which you draw out of Augustines words That although men liue and die neuer so vertuously yet except they beleeue the Catholike faith and be members of the true church they cannot be saued The name of good workes is amiable to all well minded men and by pretense of great zeale for good workes your faction hath crept into the mindes of many that in great ignorance and simplicity had a good meaning Howbeit by good workes you chiefly meane those workes that bring some gaine vnto your selues otherwise tollerating and dispensing with the breach of Gods commandements in any point whereby your Popish kingdome takes no harme or is not hindred Such therefore as haue blindly followed you out of an oppinion that you are the onely patrone of good workes I wish to observe that by your owne confession though a man liue or die neuer so well yet he cannot be saued except he hold the Catholike Faith be a member of the true church because without faith he cannot please God Doth it not then behoue all men to aduise with themselues well how they may know the Catholike Faith the true Church There were that sayed they were Iewes were the Synagogue of Sathan The Donatists claimed vnto themselues Apoc. 39. the title of Catholike Church and Catholike Faith which other Heretikes both haue done may do as well as they Let them not therefore thinke or beleeue that the Popish Church and faith is Catholike because Papists say so but let them examine your Church and Faith whether it be Catholike or no which onely by the Scriptures they shall be able infallibly to discerne In the Scriptures saith Augustine to the Donatistes we haue learned Christ and in the Scriptures Epist 166. we haue learned the Church These Scriptures we haue coÌ„mon to vs both why do wee not in them reteine in common both Christ and the Church in the end of the same Epistle Behold the scriptures are common to vs both Behold where we haue knowen Christ Behold where we haue knowen the Church This learned and godly Father when both sides challenge to themselues that they are the Catholike Church that they haue the faith of Christ calles them to the trial of scriptures as the surest meanes to know both Christ and the Church by By this rule if they shall be tried that make a spoyle of many soules vnder the colour of Catholike Church and Catholike Faith they shall be found to be deceiuers and no better then the Synagogue of Sathan Wherefore let the ignorant and seduced Papistes vnto their zeale of good workes labour to ioyne a right iudgement in matters of faith from point to point in all those Articles which Athanasius affirmeth to be so necessarie that except a man beleeue them whole and inuiolate he shall perish for euer The blinde ordinary faith of Papists to beleeue as the Popish Church beleeueth is not that Catholike faith which Athanasius saith Euerie one must beleeue that will be saued Since then by your owne confession where no true faith is there is no iustice it behoueth all men to be well assured of the faith they hold not resting their faith in the wisedome of men but in the power of God that is in the Gospell which is the power of God to saluation to euery one that beleeueth by which only faith the iust man shal liue and not by such Rom. 1. 16 a faith as is built vpon the Popes power to make what faith he list The Second thing you woulde inferre of Augustines words is that although we beleeue neuer so well yet if we liue not according to faith and so absteine from communicating with Heretikes in their seruice and sacraments we cannot be saued If the termes be rightly vnderstood the doctrine is true wholesome for men that beleeue must liue according to faith all true beleeuers must absteine from communicating with Heretikes but vnderstanding Faith for Popish faith and Heretikes for those that are opposite to Poperie that is indeede true beleeuers vnder these cloudy and mistie words you secretly infuse into the minds of those that are seduced by you the poyson of disloialtie treason rebellion which is now the principall Article of your Popish faith for the Popish faith is that it is of necessity of saluation that euery soule be subiect to the Pope that the Pope hath power to accurse and dâ—pose Princes and absolue their subiects from all their allegeance that no man ought to obey a prince excommunicate by the Pope or deposed by him These are the chiefe articles of your popish Creede Whosoeuer beleeueth and obeieth these shall vndoubtedly be saued how be it in the Popes heauen that is in Gehenna in heâ— fire whither the Pope draâ—eth innumerable soules Dist 40. si Papa with him to be tormented with euerlasting fire Your meaning then is to breede a resolution in the hearts of all those whom you cal Catholikes in this land that although they be neuer so deuout Papists yet if they walke not according to their Popish faith that is if they bee not true to the Popes triple crowne if they practise not by al meanes to reduce his tyraÌ„nie into this kingdom if they be not at all times traytors in heart purpose as soone as opportunity serueth traytors in action they cannot be saued This is the wholesome doctrine of Poperie as appeareth both by the Bull of Pâ—us S. against Q. Elizabeth of blessed and princely memorie and by Nicholas Sanders who thus writeth Huc igttur iam De visib mouarc lib. 2. cap. 4. tandemres deducta est c. Now then the matter is brought to this point that an Hereticall Kinge must bee remooued from the kingdome which hee holdeth ouer Christians And because the crime for which hee is to be remooued is committed against faith doubtlesse it belongeth chiefly to the Bishops both to pronounce the Kinge himselfe an Heretike or otherwise an Apostata and also to declare that his subiects are from thence foorth free of yeelding obedience vnto him that they ought to do their best that another may withall speed be supplied in his roomth Who seeth not that vtterly it abhorreth from the saluation of mens soules to suffer him to raigne ouer the faithfull who is himselfe an infidell O miserable Popish faith which driueth all subiects of protestant that is christian Princes either to be rebells and traytors as a matter appertaining to the saluation of their soules or else vtterly to despaire of saluation for that you adde of communicating with those whom you call Heretikes it is some part indeed of your Popish faith that your adherents ought to absteine from our seruice and sacraments and most willingly you
saith Chrysostome and by the commaundement of Christ But Papists admit no triall of their faith but by themselues they are the Church The Pope is the supreame Pastor he that will not heare this Church and this Pastor is held Anathema as an heathen or Publican What is this else but that which Chrysostome saieth they ruling the Church doe openlie and licentiouslie subuert the Church for they prescribe their owne practise for the rule of faith and take away all indifferent meanes of triall and will be both makers and iudges of faith This is the confession of their faith that they are the Church and you must beleeue it and therefore beleeue that all is true which they say whatsoeuer interpretation of the scriptures they deliuer it is the true sence of the scriptures what heresie by this prescription may not be maintained yea what trial of spirits is left to the Church if any one spirit must be thus beleeued without submission to be tried by the Scriptures Come to their conuersation Are not their fruites vvoâ—nds troubles and manifold mischiefes deposing of Princes inciting of subiects to rebellions procurement of forraine inuasions impoysonings and murthers of Princes and all that stand in their light threatnings of stabbings and cutting of throats finally vnderminings of Parliaments and conueâ—ances of powder to blowe vp King Queene Prince Nobles Bishops Iudges Commons that without any distinction euen in a moment Can they charge Protestants whoÌ„ they call heretikes with such sauage wooluish ye diuellish hâ—llish and stygian practises They draw vnto them all the sonnes of Belial whom they can intise out of all protestant kingdomes and states to make continuall imployment of them to worke the subuersion of their natiue Countries to infect with butcherly and Scithâ—an crueltie the mindes of subiects by desperate furies to drive men to infamous and vntimely temporall deaths and to eternall damnatioÌ„ not caring what become of their bodies or soules so their turnes be serued Can the religion of Protestants be stained with such barbarous and bestiall crueltie They receiue the Sacrament in way of obligation to commit murders to practise rebellions to subuert kingdomes yea they promise before hand and graunt great pardons to such as they procure to vndertake such villanies They make Martyrs of those who for barbarous treasons rebellions and murthers haue iustly suffered such punishment as they deserued both by the law of God and man Are these the works of sheepe or of woolues By their fruites therefore you shall knowe them they are on euery side full of sharpe and cruell prickles If they speake they equiuocate if they be silent there are seauen abhominations in their hearts as the sequele hath euer prooued if they be angry they are mad nothing will serue but inuasions rebellions poysonings powder treasons and all maner fell and cruell practises If they be patient they waite a time to hurt and in the meane time they are preparing some mischiefe as manifold experience hath prooued and the sunne hath often seene If they do euill they are not ashamed as the desperate obstinacie of the late powder traytors shewed If they do any thing well they doe it for vaine glory to beseene of men and to get a name to themselues Is this the Church whereof euery man must be a member or else he cannot be saued is this the Catholike faith is this to liue according to the faith will any man be so blinded that for loue or zeale to such a Synagogue or for awe or feare of the curse of such cursed workers he will refuse to ioyne with the Protestants in their seruice Sacraments My deare brethren put no trust in any childe of man which by Augustines confession our Sauiour Christ forbiddeth Pin not your saluation vpon his sleeue that may go to hell himselfe I meane the Pope Beware of them that outwardly weare onely sheepes clothing but inwardly are very rauening Woolues as you finde by their fruits Trust not them that will be tried for their truth and honestie by none but themselues suspect their honestie that shut vp the Scriptures from you which our Sauiour Christ coÌ„manded all men to search Finally inquire whether Christ or any Apostle or any holy Councel or Father did euer put poyson sword or powder into mens hands to murther the sacred persons of Kings to ruinate whole Kingdomes and to promote the faith of Christ by poyson sword and fire If you finde any such president hearken to this forcible reasoner and all other Iesuites and Seminaries refuse our Churches our seruice and Sacraments If not disclaime that religion that faith that seruice that Sacrament that serueth to combine such conspiracies that must get vp and prosper by such monstrous and endlesse crueltie God of his mercie open your eyes that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ Iesus may shine vnto you that you may be able to discerne the mysterie of iniquitie which of long time hath wrought in the Kingdome of Antichrist that you may knowe the synagogue of Satan from the Church of Christ and at length come out from Babylon and escape the wrath present and to come and finally be saued by the only faith of Iesus Christ to whom be glory for euer Amen FINIS
Originals and binde to a corrupt translation as Authonâ—â—cal You suffer not the Scriptures to be vulgarly translated and read Thus you haue the Scriptures as in a prison but as you should haue them to make them common to all men by reading preaching and teaching you haue them not The interpretation of Scriptures you haue such as may stand with your Popish practise which is the priuie rule of your interpretation and such as it pleaseth the Pope to prescribe you But true interpretation of Scripture according to the plainer principles thereof and the rule of faith which Augustine so much commendeth you neither haue nor wil hade nor suffer others to haue if you may let it and so your interpretation is priuate as either being the Popes or proceeding from your owne faction addicted to your receiued practise but ours is the interpretation of the Spirit of God testified by himselfe in the Scriptures inspiried by him as by the Scriptures and the rule of faith we prooue and therefore blasphemously by you called priuate Seeing therefore the visibility of your Church is in those things which may be seen partly among the heathen partly in a false Church which the longer it continueth the worse You haue but some shew of the Fathers on your side when indeede they are against you and so haue not the antiquity of truth but of error you neither haue the Scriptures as you should haue them for your selues and others nor their true sense and interpretation but onely of your owne making your Popish faith though it be olde in it selfe yet in respect of the daies of our Fathers our Sauiour Christ the Apostles and Prophets the daies thereof haue been but few and euill and therefore it is not the olde Catholike Apostolike faith whatsoeuer this false and forcelesse Reasoner hath sayed PAPIST A short Addition Beleeue assuredly and holde for certaine that no Heretike and Schismatike that vniteth not himselfe to the Catholike Church againe how great almes so-euer hee giue yea or shed his bloud for Christes name can possibly be saued For manie heretikes by the cloake of Christes cause deceiuing the simple suffer much but where no true faith is there is no iustice because the iust liueth by faith so it is also of Schismatikes because where charitie is not no iustice can be there which of they had they would neuer plucke in peeces the bodie of Christ which is the Church A Sentence of S. Austin worthie to be noted of such as thinke that men which liue vertuouslie may goe to heauen though they beleeue not the Catholike faith nor be members of his true Church For as most certaine it is that none which beleeue not all the articles of the Catholike faith can be saued though to the eies of the world be liue or die neuer so well for without faith it is as Paul saith vnpossible to please God And S. Athanasius telleth vs that whosoeuer will be saued before all things it is necessarie that he holde the Catholike faith which faith without euerie one shall keepe whole and inviolate without doubt he shall perish for euer so no lesse certaine it is that although we beleeue neuer so well yet if we liue not according to that faith and so abstaine from communicating with heretiques in their seruice and Sacraments we cannot be saued For hee that shall denie Christ before men Christ also will denie him before his Father in heauen as himselfe saith And if we may without sinne temporize and frame our conscience according to the law when shall we take vp our Crosse and follow Crist as himselfe willeth vs And vvhat meant the blessed Apostles and so manie 1000. of Martyrs to shed their bloud for Christ of an inward and secret faith might haue brought them to heauen and they might outwardlie haue yeelded to Princes lawes and keepe their conscience to themselues This doctrine Christes seruants know not it is deuised only for the colde comfort of such as loue this vvorld too much and feare persecution But let such thinke of this saying of our Sauiour Feare ye not them that kill the body and are not able to kill the soule but rather feare him that can destroy both body soule into hel and let them imitate noble Eleazarus Mart. 2. 28. who rather made choise of cruell death then to dissemble in the cause of religion and do that with the scandal of others which of it selfe was no sinne at all PROTESTANT Augustines Sentence De fide and Pet. Diac. cap. 39. is oneâ—â— thus much Formissimè tene nullatenus dubites quemlibet hareticum siue schismaticum in nomine patris filij spiritus sancti baptizatum si ecclesiae Catholicae non fuerit aggregatus quantascunque eleemosinas fecerit si pro Christi nomine sanguinem fuderit nullatenus posse saluari that is Firmly beleeue by no meanes doubt that euery heretike or schismatike being baptized in the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost how great almes soeuer he do yea though hee shed his bloud for Christs name yet if he be not gathered to the Catholike Church by no meanes can be saued This sentence though not word for word yet in effect you rehearse but you ad therunto more words whereof Augustine in that place hath neuer a one yet in the end conclude a sentence of S Austen as if all that goeth before were his sentence in that chapter It seemeth therefore that you read not Augustines words your selfe but borrowed them some where without discerning where Augustines words ended The rest is a truth but not true that Augustine there hath such a sentence what would you now inferre out of this sentence of Augustine First that men though they liue neuer so vertuously yet if they beleeue not the Catholike faith nor bee members of his true Church cannot be saued Secondly that if men beleeue neuer so well yet if they liue not according to the faith and so absteine from communicating with heretiks in their seruice and sacraments they cannot be saued and so proceede on to condemne those that outwardly haue yeelded to Princes Lawes and keepe their consciences to themselues All which may with no gaine to you be yeelded it the chiefe termes be well vnderstood to witte Catholike Church Catholike Faith and Heretikes or Schismatikes For if the Popish Church be not the Catholike Church nor the Popish Faith the Catholike Faith nor they Heretikes or Schismatikes that stand in opposition to Poperie or do depart from Popish communion then what gaine you by this whole addition But it is a world to see into what a maze you haue ledde the poore sheep of your flocke that no sooner they heare Catholike Church or Catholike Faith but by and by they thinke of Popish Church and Popish Faith betweene which there is no lesse difference then betweene light and darknes And againe when they heare of Herâ—tikes they presently