this question Whether the whoâ—e militant Church of England may erre Mr. Walker I answer to this as before that it is a captious and ambiguous confused question and that this militant Church as the rest may erre and not erre according to the former diuers respects and considerations Mr. Smith Whether is the Church of England so tyed to the word of God and such helps that it cannot erre nor misinterpret the Scriptures in fundamentall points of Faith Mr. Walker I answer that as in all other particular Churches so in the particular Churches of England there is a double voice one of the Church as shee is the true Church of Christ and that is both her voice commending the Scriptures onely to bee beleeued as necessary for sauing knowledge and true faith and also the voice of GOD plainely speaking in the Scriptures in this respect she is so tyed that shee cannot erre There is another voice which the Church vttereth not immediately from her selfe by the Commission which Christ gaue vnto her but by her fraile members suppose a Synode and assembly of Pastors taking vpon them to determine things doubtfull out of obscure places of Scripture and to make them more plaine then the Scriptures doe vpon which they build This voyce may erre and by it the Church may be said after a sort to erre in some part though not wholly nor finally nor obstinately because if it bee a true Church it will not absolutely and peremptorily determine that which the Scriptures leaue doubtfull neither will it persist alwayes in the errors if they be deadly but either the whole number or at least some in the number of the Church will renounce it and so the whole shall not erre finally This is my answer But because I would giue you some ground whereon to fasten that we may not spend time in questions but may come to disputation which is the intent of our meeting I will grant you thus much that the Church of England may erre for a time and after some manner in a point fundamentall or necessary to saluation Ground what you can vpon this and let vs haue some disputation by way of strict Arguments and Syllogismes Mr. Smith I haue enough out of your owne confession to proue that you haue neither Church nor Faith And I pray you Gentlemen to marke and take notice he grants that the Protestant Church of England may erre in a fundamentall point if in one then as well in another and so from one to another till it erre in all and so haue no faith at all and hauing no faith it is no Church Thus you see I haue proued that Protestants haue neither church nor Faith and therefore I beseech you all take heede of them who by their owne confession haue forsaken the Catholicke Church and faith and doe wilfull runne into all damnable errors and heresies and lead men into destrustion You see how plainely they are conuinced and I appeale to you all Iudge whether I haue not plainely proued that which I did vnder take to wit that they haue neither Church nor Faith and so are in a most damnable estate Mr. Walker To these words vttered with great vehemency and action of the hands and whole body Mr. Walker standing vp and putting of his Hat made this reply First saith hee though it was your motion and my desire that I might talke mildly without bitter words yet seeing hee first breakes out so vnreasonably and goe about by bitter and reproachfull words and gestures to beare downe the truth I must craue leaue of these Gentlemen to answer you in your kinde though it be very vnseemly that in my manner of answer you may behold the vnseemlynesse of your disputing and then with like words voice and gestures he answered to this effect First where as you say that you haue proued that which you did vndertake you shew your selfe without wit or reason for you are not able to bring one word of reason by way of argument till I doe lay you a ground as all here doe see and therefore if you seeme to proue any thing you must thanke me for it who doe yeeld more then you can proue Secondly your argument is without all forme order or reason for it doth not follow that euery Church which may erre in one point may erre in all points at once and fall wholly away because God hath promised that the gates of Hell shall not preuaile against his Church so farre as to put it quite from the foundation though it may Build stubble and straw vpon the foundation by erring in some points for a time Thirdly though it bee not impossible for the true Church to erre yea though it were granted that it might wholly fall away from all faith yet it doth not there vpon follow that it doth so and that now presently it hath no faith neither is a Church at all Thus Gentlemen you see how I haue proued this man by his owne speech to bee without wit reason modesty or honesty roauing without wit or reason railing without modesty and falsly charging vs against all shew of honesty But I feare me that this kind of Frier-like preaching is odious and distastfull to all iudicious beholders I pray you let vs dispute orderly and according to art And if you be able to dispute Scholler-like let vs haue one argument framed into a short Syllogisme Mr. Smith I warrant you I can make Syllogismes to your small comfort Mr. Walker And I doubt not but I shall as easily answer them to your small ease Mr. Smith Then he with much adoe vttered this Syllogisme and caused it to be written downe That Church which hath not the word of God truely preached and infallibly deliuered vnto it is not the true Church of Christ But the Protestant Church is such Ergo. Mr. Walker I distinguish vpon the Maior proposition For if you meane the word truly preached and infallibly deliuered in euery particular point so that it can neuer erre any manner of way in any such point I denie the Maior vpon example and warrant from the Apostles and doe hold that a true Church may for a time haue the word not truly deliuered and infallibly in some point and yet be a true Church But if you vnderstand a totall erring in all points and a preaching of the whole word vntruly then is your Minor most false for Protestant Churches doe not preach the whole word vntruly at any time Now proue you which of your propositions you please For in these senses which I haue named both are false Mr. Smith The Maior is so manifest that it needs no proofe neither can be denyed for how is it possible for any Church to be a true Church which hath not the word truly preached in all points Mr. Walker It is to mee a manifest vntruth and therefore proue it true if you can if you cannot then yeeld the cause that is false Mr. Smith I proue
thus That Church which may erre for a time in a fundamentall point necessary to saluation hath not sufficient meanes of saluation for that time yours is such Ergo it is no true Church Mr. Walker Here are the same three faults which were in your former Argument First no proofe of the proposition denyed Secondly foure tearmes Thirdly the manner is still false for possibilitie of erring doth not take away sufficiency of meanes for the time Mr. Smith I proue it thus That Church which may erre for a time in a fundamentall point necessary to saluation for that time hath not the whole infallible truth requisite to salvation But your Church may so erre Ergo. It hath not the whole infallible faith requisite for salvation Mr. Walker I see you cannot bring one argument to proue that which I denyed but still you doe begin a new Argument to proue new things Notwithstanding I will follow you wheresoever you goe and therefore I deny the maior and doe require you to proue that possibility of erring takes away the whole infallible faith from such as are subiect to it Mr. Smith I proue it thus The beliefe of the whole infallible faith is a meanes necessary to salvation The English Church hath not the whole infallible faith Ergo. That Church which may erre for a time in a fundamentall point for that time hath not meanes sufficient Mr. Walker Now sir I see you haue lost the question and your reason and your selfe and all your speech is a Chaos without forme or figure and proueth nothing at all If you be not able to make a Syllogisme I pray you confesse your weakenesse and let mee dispute one of my questions against you and let vs trie what facultie you haue in defending your cause I am sure you haue none to any purpose in opposing it Mr. Smith Stay a little and I will bring it into a Syllogisme presently The whole intire infallible faith in all fundamentall points is onely a meanes sufficient to salvation That Church which may erre for a time in a fundamentall point hath not the whole infallible faith Ergo it hath not sufficient meanes c. Mr. Walker You cloy me with crasie Syllogismes which haue neither mood nor figure and which tend to proue nothing but onely to repeat what hath beene before denyed to wit That possibility of erring for a time in a fundamentall point doth depriue a Church of the whole infallible faith Thus you bring in againe as your minor though it hath before beene denyed and therefore I will still put you to proue it But I pray you let your assistant write downe your Syllogismes for I am weary of writing and of wasting paper with false fallacies and confused speeches which hath neither mood nor figure Mr. Smith I am sure I shall quickly bring my Argument into forme if you stand so strictly on artificiall Syllogismes Hauing thus sayd he arose from the table as if hee would breath himselfe and after much scratching of his head and other gestures he turnes to the Priest his assistant and bids him write and did dictate vnto him another false Syllogisme of some tearmes which Mr. Walker reiected and derided And after that another which was so reiected And after that a third and so on till he had spent a side of a leafe in folio in writing downe fallacies and a large halfe houre and more of time So that Mr. Walker began to intreat him that he would giue him leaue to make his Syllogisme for him for he perceiued what he intended Whereat Mr. Smith chafed and sayd to the Gentlemen he confounds me or else I could haue long agoe brought it into a Syllogisme Mr. Walker answered you doe me wrong to attribute to mee the honour which belongs to God and his truth for they confound you and not I. Then one of the Roman Catholikes began to sweare by God that Mr. Smith did make a true Syllogisme which Mr. Walker had without cause reiected Mr. VValker desired him to repeat it and to shew it to be regular according to moode and figure The Roman Catholike swore againe divers great oathes and sayd that he would take the Sacrament vpon it and renounce his salvation if hee did not heare Mr. Smith make a true Syllogisme and that one of them which Mr. Walker reiected was it Mr. VValker answered that oathes could not proue false Syllogismes to be true neither could the Sacrament turne a fallacy into a sound Argument And told him that if he were so prodigall of his saluation he might sooner lose his soule then make a Syllogisme out of Mr. Smiths confused speeches and fallacies At length after much adoe Mr. Smith hammered out this Syllogisme Mr. Smith That Church which hath not the whole intire infallible faith hath not meanes sufficient to salvation That Church which may erre for a time hath not the whole intire infallible faith Ergo it hath not meanes sufficient Mr. Walker I deny your minor and doe put you to proue that the Church which may erre hath not the whole infallible faith Mr. Smith I proue it thus That Church which is subiect to error hath not the whole infallible faith That Church which may erre is subiect to error Ergo. Mr. Walker Now sir I thanke you that you haue bestowed a Syllogisme vpon me to proue the proposition denied But I must tell you that your maior proposition is false For a Church may be so far subiect to error that it may haue a possibility to erre and yet not be voide of the whole infallible faith It is one thing to be subiect to error and another thing to erre actually we hold that our Church or any other particular Protestant Church may erre but doe not thinke that our Church doth erre in any fundamentall point Mr. Smith You doe but cavill for if it may erre it is as bad as if it did erre and therefore I haue sufficiently convinced you by my argument Mr. Walker I hope you doe not speake as you thinke nor thinke as you speake For you know that by our Law euery Seminary Priest is subiect to hanging and quartering and there is no impossibility of executing the Law vpon them And yet you hope that all or the most part of them in England shall not be actually executed and you know that they are not all in the same case as if they were hanging actually For an Argument doth not follow a posse ad esse as we Schollers speake But now seeing your argument is hanged vp and wee haue spent foure houres and more in hearing you dispute to no purpose I pray you let mee prosecute one of my questions against you for the time which remaineth and I hope to make more Syllogismes in an houre then you haue done in foure if you will answer me directly Here some of the Roman Catholikes said that it was full sixe a clocke and now there was little time left But some of the Protestants
desired to heare Mr. Walker dispute vpon his questions Which when Mr. Smith seemed loath to yeeld vnto as being weary already Mr. Walker desired that he might but turne one Argument against Mr. Smiths question and proue the contrary to be true To this all assented and the Gentleman who began to distrust his former professed Popery comming to Mr. Walker and standing at his backe desired him to presse one Argument against Mr. Smiths question Whereupon Mr. Walker thus began to proue That a true Christian Church might erre for a time in some fundamentall point and yet be a true Church Mr. Walker That which the auncient Apostolicall Church might doe other succeeding Churches may doe with the same successe The Apostolicall Church might erre and did erre in a maine point and yet haue a true faith and was a true Church Ergo other Churches also Mr. Smith I deny the minor the Apostolicall Church did not erre in any maine point Mr. Walker The resurrection of Christ from the dead taught in the Scriptures is a fundamentall point of Faith The Apostolike Church did erre in it Ergo Mr. Smith denyed the minor Mr. VValker proued it thus That which the Gospell teacheth in expresse words is true This the Gospell teacheth that the Apostles erred in Christs resurrection Ergo. Mr. Smith If you say that they erred in the resurrection de facto that is concerning the act of it I grant the minor But if you speake of the resurrection as it is a point of Faith I deny your minor Mr. VValker You distinguish strangely betweene a thing and it selfe for the very act of Christs resurrection is a point of Faith without which our faith is vaine as the Apostle sayth 1 Cor. 15. 17. Mr. Smith It is now a point of faith but it was not then because the Scriptures had not expressely revealed that Christ should rise from death Mr. Walker That which Christ had expresly taught by word of mouth was thereby made a point of Faith and they were bound to beleeue But he had told them that he must suffer and rise againe the third day and that in plaine words as the Gospell testifies Ergo. Here some of the Gentlemen said that the point was sufficiently proued Mr. Smith But I deny that the Apostles erred in the Resurrection shew me that out of the Gospell Mr. Walker It is testified Ioh. 20. 9. That they knew not the Scripture that he must rise from the dead Loe thus it is testified in your owne vulgar Latine Bible Mr. Smith I say still that the Scriptures had not reuealed it sufficiently and therefore it was no point of faith Mr. Walker The text shewes that the Scripture had reuealed for else how could it truely say that they knew not the Scripture if the Scripture had not taught it It is no ignorance of Scripture not to know what the Scripture neuer taught Sir William Harrington O well sayd I protest I neuer heard any point so plainely proued and then turning himselfe to the wauering Gentleman said Now cousen if euer thou wilt be conuerted be conuerted with these proofes Mr. Walker But yet I will proue it more fully Luk. 24. 44. 45. Our Sauiour there saith that he had told them before that he must die and rise againe and that it was written in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets and in the Psalmes and it is said there that he opened their vnderstanding that they might vnderstand the Scriptures Mr. Smith This was an error of ignorance or forgetfulnesse for want of instruction and exercise in the Word which succeeding Churches haue more aboundantly Mr. Walker You cauill against common sense for I dispute not whence this error proceeded but whether they erred in that maine point of the resurrection or not and that you cannot deny so that the point is fully proued which I vndertooke Againe I can shew you yet further that Christ having instructed them in the Scriptures and from his owne mouth it could not be for want of instruction that they erred but this error proceeded from incredulity and hardnes of heart in them so it appeares Mark 16. 14. where it is said that our Sauiour appeared to the eleven Apostles and vpbraided them with their incredulitie and hardnesse of heart because they beleeued not them which had seene him after he was risen Another Priest Mr. Smith being put to silence with those proofes the other Priest to make vp this breach fled to another shift and denyed the Apostles to haue beene a Church at that time because the holy Ghost was not yet come downe nor the Euangelicall Law reuealed Mr. Walker Vpon this Mr. Walker first spake to the wauering Gentleman and asked him whether he thought it not well for him to be of such a Church as St. Peter was when Christ said Math. 16. Happy art thou Simon c. And vpon this rocke I will build my Church Who answered that he desired to be of no better Church Secondly he proceeded thus The Kingdome of God which comes by the Preaching of the Gospell is the true Church But that was come alreadie as our Sauiour himselfe testified Matth. 11. 28. and Luk. 11. 20. It is a base shift to say that the comming downe of the holy Ghost made them a Church For his extraordinary gifts came not to make them Christians and members of the Church of Christ but to make them fit messengers to Preach to all Nations and to euery people in their proper tongue But if all this will not conuince you let vs know who were the Church in those dayes if the Apostles were not Peter had receiued that commission and promise long before vpon which you build the Church of Rome if it was not then able to make him of the Church how can it now vphold your Church against all the gates of hell Now then to conclude I beseech you as you loue your soules take heed of sinning against your owne Conscience and of rebelling against the light you know that the Apostles were elected from all eternitie they were effectually called by Christ himselfe not onely to beleeue and to be Christians and open professors but also to be Apostles and Preachers and by the Gospell Preached and Miracles wrought they had conuerted many to the faith as the Gospell testifieth And therefore nothing being wanting in them which is required to the essence of a Christian Church vndoubtedly they were a true Church and to deny this is to resist the manifest truth of the Gospell Thus the disputation ended for the Priests did not giue any answer but were very willing to make an end The Protestant Gentlemen seemed well satisfied and made them readie to depart And one of the Roman Catholikes calling Mr. VValker aside began to collogue and flatter with him telling him that he was a good Logician a good Linguist and well read and that God had giuen him a sharpe wit and ready tongue And therefore no maruell though he preuailed and made a good cause seeme bad when he opposed it and a bad seeme good when he defended it But saith he take heed that you do not trust to your wit and learning too much least they deceiue you and make you triumph ouer the truth To him Mr. Walker answered that he knew himselfe inferiour to many hundreds in the Church of England that it was not any power in himselfe but the power of the true cause which made him to preuaile For Magnus est veritas praeualebit Great is truth and will preuaile A Gentleman ouer-hearing laughed and sayd I am glad that you finde some of our Ministers more learned then your Priests contrary to your common bragging and boasting that all learning is among your Priests and Iesuites And so they parted Mr. Smith alias Norrice embracing Mr. Walker and saying I pray God we may meet in heauen and Mr. Walker replying and saying I desire so also and hope we shall so doe if you will forsake your errours and embrace the truth which is professed in the reformed Churches of CHRIST Soli Deo gloria FINIS Math. 13. 4. 16. 12.
you our King will marry his Son and aske the Pope no leaue if the other party will aduenture it as well as he It is most intollerable that you should so boldly slaunder his Maiestie Secondly for the tearmes of my questions which you call vnmannerly they are the same which it pleaseth Gods spirit to vse in the holy Scriptures and his holinesse hath in his wisedome been pleased to stile the Pope and Church of Rome by the same titles as I shall quickly proue if you will vndertake to answer me And therefore you are too bold to taxe Gods spirit of vnmannerlinesse But perhaps this is a shift of yours to put off our disputation vpon these poynts which pay you home with a cleanely excuse of vnmannerly tearmes yet it shall not serue your turne for the more vnseemly that the questions are the more disgrace it will be to me and the more hard taske to proue them and to you it will be more credit and ease to defend the contrary so that this is no excuse for you at all Thirdly in that you doe charge vs here at home so manifestly contrary to common sense that we haue neither Church nor Faith when as we beleeue and professe all holy truthes taught in the holy Scriptures which by your selues cannot be denyed to be Gods infallible word But I pray you let vs leaue all loose and idle discourses and come to a strict forme of Disputation writing downe the Arguments and answers which doe passe betweene vs. Your taske which you haue vndertaken is to proue that we haue no Church nor Faith let vs heare your arguments briefly Mr. Smith Well that we may come quickly and closely come home to the matter let me aske you a question and doe you answer me that I may ground my Arguments vpon your owne words and I shall quickly proue against you my assertion and make the truth of it plainely appeare First I aske whether the true Catholike Church be visible M. Walker The true Catholike Church is not visible neither can it be seene with eyes of any mortall man on earth M. Smith Marke Gentlemen he will deny this Canon he saith the Catholike Church is not visible which I will proue to be against all reason Mr. Walker Indeed if I should say that it were visible considering it as it now is I should speake against all reason For the greatest part of it being Saints in heauen are without the reach of mans eyes and cannot be seene Mr. Smith You doe but equiuocate of purpose to decline all Disputation you know that I meane not the Church triumphant in heauen but the Catholike Church militant on earth Mr. Walker Nay rather doe you equiuocate or worse for to say that the Catholike Church is militant on earth is as absurd as to say that all mankinde euen the whole vniuersall race of Adam are now liuing on earth when reason and experience teach vs that the greatest part are dead and many also yet vnborne I hope you know that the word Catholike signifies vniuersall and therefore the Catholike Church is vniuersall company of the Elect and faithfull and includes in it euery one whosoeuer hath beene or is or shall be hereafter a true beleeuing member of Christ and aâ—l they cannot bee seene at once on earth because they neuer were altogether on earth The militant number of them on earth are the least part of them Mr. Smith You doe wrangle to auoyde Dâ—sputation I therefore tell you that by the Catholiâ—e militant Church I vnderstand the true Church of Iesus Christ which all true Christians here on earth ought to heare and obey as it is the pillar and ground of truâ—h now answer whether you hold that to be visible or inuisible M. Walker I iudge of your meaning by your words and therefore I cannot conceiue this Church which you doe speake of to be the Catholike that is the vniuersall Church for euery true particular Church in which euery true Christian doth loue and whereof he is a member is that which he ought to heare and to obey because by reason of the faithfull and elect which are in it it is the house of God and the pillar and firmament of truth Now euery such Church is partly visible and partly inuisible M. Smith How is it visible and how is it inuisible Mr. Walker Euery such true Church hath in it elect and faithfull men professing outwardly in word and practise true Christian religion who doe belong to the Catholike Church and are true liuely members of Christ It hath also some hypocrites and carnall professors which doe also make an outward show and profession of christianity but are not truely ingraffed into Christ by vnion and communion of the Spirit neither haue the true holy sauing Faith and by consequent are not members of the true Catholike Church Now the men who professe religion in the Church and are the members of it if we consider them as they are men and as they practise and performe outward duties of christians as preaching and hearing of the word administring and receiuing the Sacraments publike outward worship and such like they are visible But as for the election faith spirituall and in word graces and deuotion in the one sort by which they are indeed true christians belong to the Catholike Church and the hipocrisie and carnall corruption lurking inwardly in the other sort by meanes whereof they are seperated from communion with Christ in spirit they are things inuisible and to be discerned spiritually not with bodily eyes Thus euery true Church is partly inuisible to wit in respect of the spirituall graces which make men true Christians indeed and partly visible to wit in respect of the outward profession common both to elect and reprobates to faithfull men and hypocrites Mr. Smith No sooner was the answer giuen but Mr. Smith as one full of anger protested with vehemency of words that now he saw indeed there was neither Church nor Faith among Protestants they were all so contrary among themselues neuer agreeing together in any opinion He affirmed to the standers by that Doctor Whitakers Doctor Reignolds Mr. Perkins and many other chiefe Protestants did euer grant that the true Catholike Church was visible Another Priest sitting by scornefully repeated the name of Perkins and spake of him as of a poore silly man not worthy to be counted among the learned Mr. Walker Mr Walker moued with the falshood of the one and the scorne of the other first answered the scorner that none could count Mr. Perkins silly and vnlearned but either out of ignorance or wilfull mallice and that he knew it to be the fashion of popish Priests outwardly to sleight vilifie before the people such as do most cut and gall them To Mr. Smith he answered that if he would grant that Protestants haue a true Church and the true faith as truely as that which he affirmed of Doctor Whitakers and the rest was false