manners all most infinite And further yet there is and hath ben controuersie about the rule it self as which it is how much is Scripture which booke which chapter which verse is or is not holy Scripture what is the meaning of this or that verse which controuersies must be decided otherwise there will neuer be vnitie and consent about the diuine Word rule and lawe Now these things cannot be determined without Diuine Assistance as I argued before and for the Vnitie in Religion and the CommunioÌ„ and Perpetuitie power to determine them is necessarie wherefore since our Sauiours Prouidence was not deficient it followes that there is and in the Church such power and Assistance 47. Fourthlie if the holie ministerie in the Church of God be established as a rule of mens faith to the end they be not in their faith wauering and borne about with euery winde of newe doctrine to the circumuention of errour then is it by Gods assistance and perpetuall watch and direction infallible but the sacred ministerie of the Church of God is thus established by Iesus Christ which I proue by the testimonie of S. Paule before alleadged he Christ Ephes 4. v. 11. c. gaue some Apostles aÌ„d other some Pastors and Doctors to the consummation of the Saints vnto the worke of the ministerie vnto the edifying of the bodie of Christ vntill wee meete all into the vnitie of faith and knowledge of the sonne of God into the measure of the age of the fullnes of Christ that now wee be not children wauering and caried about with euerie wind of doctrine in the wickednes of men in craftines to the circumuention of errour 47. Fiftly since you distinguish the doctrine of faith into fundamentall and not fundamentall it followes that the Apostles had put into their mouthes for instruction of Gods people doctrine allso not fundameÌ„tall Iohn 15. v. 15. all thinges whatsoeuer I hard of my father I haue notified vnto you said our Sauiour to the Apostles Whence I inferre also that that doctrine shall neuer out of their mouthes or the mouthes of their successors while the world endures and proue it by Gods couenant of assistance Isay 5â— my spiritte that is in thee and my wordes that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth aÌ„d out of the mouth of thy seede aÌ„d out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede saith our lord from this present and for euer And by the promise of our blessed Sauiour Isay 14. v. 26. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Paraclete the holy Ghost whome the Father will send in my name he shall teach you all thinges and suggest vnto you all thinges whatsoeuer I shall say to you 49. That you may the better vnderstand this peece of diuinitie which doth oft occurre I will spend a litle more tyme in it to let you know first that you and the rest of your fellowes in this matter doe crosse and contradict your owne selues For touching other pointes pointes of religioÌ„ and gods word which you saie are not fundamentall Further Confirmation of the former arguments either there is certaine knowledge to be had of them or there is not make choise of which you please If you be not certaine you must confesse you doubt of the truth of such pointes and of the meaning of Gods word in all places by vs alleadged which are not fundamentall and that you confidentlie auouch in the pulpitte and maintaine against vs in the matters of reall presence iustificatioÌ„ merit workes of Supererogation sacrifice inuocation of Sainctes c. that which you doubt whether it be as you saie or noe If you be certaine either you meane that the Spiritte doth assist and assure you in more then fundamentalles which indeed is your ordinarie pulpite bragge where none dispute with you and consequentlie you must graunt against your distinction that the assistance of the Spiritte is extended further then to your pretended fundamentalles or you meane that you are not assured by the Spiritte but onelie by your witte which witt you oppose to the witte and iudgment of all the Church in diuine matters And if it be thus you contradict you selues because at home you say you resolue it not into your owne witte but into the Spirit 50. You answeare that by illation you conclude against vs but who knowes not that the difficultie is about the sense of the place from whence you offer to conclude against vs and that first you must be certaine of this sense before you can extract any thing out of it by good consequeÌ„ce I demaund therfore whether you be certaine of the sense or noe if you be not you are not certaine of the conclusion which you draw there hence as euery logitian can tell if you be then I demaund how since mans witte in diuine matters may mistake and this you confesse assistance of the Spiritte you haue not or if you pretend to haue it then confesse that in your owne iudgment it is extended in Gods promise to more then fundamentalles 51. Secondlie you contradict the whole Church aÌ„d her spiritte in this foolish affirmatioÌ„ of the Churches errour in pointes not fuÌ„damentall as you call them A second Confirmation And this I proue because all ChristiaÌ„s that euer were in the coÌ„munion of the Church hetherto did submitte their iudgmeÌ„t to the generall iudgmeÌ„t of the Church in the age before them beleeuing all whatsoeuer was theÌ„ generallie aÌ„d without exception beleeued whether the point were one of those which you call fundamentall or were not one of them in somuch that you are not able to name any one point held generallie without exception in any former age to be matter of faith though it were not one of your fundamentalles which point was reiected by the Church generallie in any ensuing age And to giue all the scope in this you can desire take all the tyme from the comming of the assisting Spiritt which was the whitsontide next after our Sauiours ascension to this present yeare But be sure you obserue diligentlie what I haue said in this argument and doe not speake of thinges which are not to this purpose either because they were not generallie and without exception esteemed matters of faith by the Church Catholique or because the contradiction tradition was not the act of the Church but of some priuate man either mistakeÌ„ by ignoraÌ„ce the Church not approuing his assertion or pertinaciously a uouching it â—n Hereticke and so without and none of vs. 3. Confirmation 52. The truth of that which I haue said is further yet manifest in this that all whosoeuer were generallie condemned for Heretiques in any former age by the Church were esteemed so by the Church in following tymes whether their Heresies were in matters you call fundamentall or not as he may see who will runne ouer the Heresies of former tymes whence it followes elderlie that
4 ch because euery man holds what he lists and doth assume to himselfe the iudgment of controuersie in Religion I meane here to name only your two Masters the late EuaÌ„gelists aÌ„d reformers forsooth of the Church Luther and Caluin and to cite them in this busines including you as farre as you consent with them for I intend in this Chapter to extend my former scope a litle and to shewe more generally the opposition of ProtestaÌ„tes to the Scripture Of Protestantes for I speake now of the whole body such as it is some be Lutherans some be Caluinists in some things the Lutherans oppose the Scripture more then Caluinists in other things the Caluinists more then the Lutherans in other both are opposite vnto Gods word When you are on that side which doth consent with vs theÌ„ my discourse doth not proceede against you yet then allso my argument holds in as much as it is confessedly true that in those points the Scripture is not against vs. If I say at any tyme you dissent from your masters whom I will name and admit that they and their Spirit of interpretation are contrarie to the Scripture you may interprete your selfe not to be included amongst them I speake vnto But my argument will runne on against you for all the rest of the points wherein you consent and agree with them which are allmost all in substance howsoeuer there may be some litle Difference about the manner If the Scripture affirme any thing absolutely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and you graunt it only 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or with a limitation I goe on in such cases against you as opposite vnto the Scripture So in the points of single life keeping the commandements free-will as you expound your selues tradition diuine assistance and some other Likewise if you admit the words but vnderstand them improperly as in the matter of the reall presence priesthood absolution for in such cases your consent is but verball and vnder the words you conceale a different sense whereby the common * The state of the Question that it may not be vnderstooâ— WEE often ofsett purpose ouercloude with darknes things which are manifest wee impudently deny things false without shame wee auouch things plainely impious Wee propose as first principles of faith things orthodoxall wee condemne of Heresie Scriptures at our pleasure wee detort to our dreames Wee boast of Fathers When Wee will follow nothing lesse then their doctrine c. The Confesâ—ion of Zanchiuâ— a greate Protestant concerning the proceedingâ— of Protestant writers Doctors and pillars of that Church Ep. 10 〈◊〉 Sturm fine l. 7. 8. Miscell people are deceaued Of the Fathers authorities I meane the same If you admitte our doctrine plainely subscribe and along to the next if you do not then attend to the plaine sense of the Scripture which I produce Vide Coâ— lat doctrâ— Cath. Protest 〈◊〉 expressâ—â— Scripturâ— verâ—â—s 〈…〉 The obscuâ—â—st of those things which I am to propose is inuocation of Saincts yet you dare not abide â—he triall of that point by confessed testimonies of Antiquitie 46. Touching the honour giuen to some things in animate for the SaÌ„ctitie which they haue as reliques Crosse pictures c. you remember that it is relatiue proportionate vnto the Sanctitie not absolute as I tould you before This kinde of honour done to such things You do wholly condemne Debituâ—â— honorem venerâ—â—tionem c. Conâ— Trid. seâ—â— 25. in greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which word yoâ— haue inteâ—preted bâ— the â— Niâ— Coâ—â— in eâ— aâ—â—â—pp Calu. l. 1. Instit c. 11. 4. c. 9. Wee do giue it To contradict your generall deniall one example ouâ— of the Scriptere will serue because it is the same reason in the rest You esteeme the deade body of a Sainct more then common earth if therefore I shewe you that honour is in Scripture commanded to be giuen to the very ground in regard of relatiue sanctity you will admit that in this point it makes for vs against you In the third of Exodus our lord seeing that Moyses went forward to see he called him out of the bush Exod. 3. v. 4·5 Honour to the ground and said approach not hither loose thy shoes froÌ„ thy feete for the place whereon thou standest is holie ground Heere is command and example of honour donne to the ground in regard of relatiue sanctitie which it had And if the ground might haue a kinde of honour why not the dust and bones of Martyrs why not the Crosse whereon Christ suffered why not the place where he stood why not his picture wherein he is represented when Iosue was in the field of the cittie of Ierico he lifted vp his eies Ios 5. v. 13.14.15.16 and sawe a man standing against him holding a drawne sword and he went vnto him aÌ„d said art thou ours or our aduersaries who answeared No. But I am a prince of the hoast of our lord and now I come Iosue fell flat on the ground and adoring he said what speaketh my lord to his seruant loose VVee haue neede of a Mediator to Christ our Mediator S. Bern. serm sig magn saith he thy shoe from thy feete for the place wherein thou doest stand is holie And Iosue did as it was commanded him 47. Next concerning Saincts and Angells Though wee do not acknowledge them our Principall Mediators for the chiefe Mediator is Iesus Christ appar vide Cyrill l. 12. Thesaur c. 10. God and man Yet wee beleeue that their subordinate mediation to speak with S. Bernard and Intercession and prayers in particular for vs relying on the merites of our Sauiour are profitable to vs agreable to their happie estate and presidencie and conformable to the Scripture You say No. Calu. 1. instit c. 14. 3. c. 20. Christus solus populi vota ad Deum defert ibid. § 20. The Scripture The Angell of our lord said Zach. 1.12 See allso Dan. 10. Intercession O lord of hoasts how long wilt thou not haue mercie on Hierusalem and on the citties of Iuda with which thou hast bene angrie And in the Reuelation of S. Iohn The fower and twentie Seniours or Elders fell before the lambe Apoc. 5. v. 8 hauing euery one harpes and golden vialles full of odours which are the prayers of saincts This place doth prooue subordinate Intercession not to be iniurious to the mediation of Iesus Christ but to be included in the order which he hath serte Apoc. 4. v. 2. Consider further the circumstances of the vision to find out what persoÌ„s these Elders were Behold quoth S. Iohn there was a throne set in heauen v. 4. and vppon the the throne one sitting c. And rouÌ„d about the throne 24 thrones and vppon the thrones 24 Elders sitting cloathed about in white garments and on their heades crownes of gold If now you will haue me to beleeue that these Elders cloathed in white
fond persuasion any indifferent man who doth vnderstand Latine may do thus In anie maine controuersie of faith which you question and accuse this great companie I now speake of of innouation do you name the tyme when their doctrine first began and let him who would see the triall take Gualterius Coccius or some other of our Authors who write of that matter and he shall find another in the primitiue Church who did teach it before the tyme or partie you assigned whereby it will be euident vnto him that you were deceaued about the begining of it And if he follow the direction of the booke he shall finde the same in the Fathers I said in any maine controuersie of faith and not in any thinge whatsoeuer because the Church hath power to make lawes and prescribe ceremonies and therefore may introduce or alter such thinges according as the circumstances in her iudgment require For this reason I speake of points of faith or such things whose institution wee hold to be Diuine For example the substance of Baptisme is of diuine institution but Ceremonies haue beene added and the substance of the Masse is by diuine institution but prayers and Ceremonies haue beene and may yet be added by the Church 17. If you be discontented with this manner of proceeding from which without a preiudice you cānot disclaime at all I vrge an other and take learned men to scanne the businesse In the seauenth age when the Christian word was Papisticall and of our Religion as you confesse the Schollers and wisest men had the Fathers writinges and the Memories of the sixt age which you must needes graunt because the precedent age did leaue them to their posteritie the Fathers to their Children the Masters to their Schollers Now those of the seauenth age as I haue noted more fullie in the former booke Bysshops Pastors learned mē and generallie all the Church of that tyme hauing these pregnant and infallible meanes of informatiō by writings and otherwise did iudge and beleeue and therevppon did engage their part in heauen and eternall estate that they receaued their faith and Religion from the former age being the sixt Wherefore since a world of men in matter of Facte as whether their Fathers wēt to Masse praied to Saincts c. could not be deceaued the thing being subiect to the eie and there being infinite eies obseruing religiously what was donne it followes cleerlie since the world generally did then beleeue this to be the Religion professed by their Fathers that so it was 18. My fourth argument shall be this Papistrie as you terme it was the generall Religiō of the Christiā world in the tyme of Boniface the third as you may see in the Ecclesirsticall histories of that tyme whereby appeares that all generally did goe to Masse pray to Saincts confesse their sinnes c. and your men allso Arg. 4 do confesse it Againe the true Religion was once in Rome their communion once was withall the world and this Religion did remaine in the communion of Nations till the tyme of S. Leo and S. Gregory the Great as you may obserue in their bookes wherein their communion with the Christian world is manifest so compare the sixt age to the fift the fift age to the fourth c. as I before did the 7. to the 6. Now Sainct Gregory died in the yeare six hundred and fower and Bonifacius the third who in the tyme of S. Gregory had bene imployed at Constantinople came to be Pope and died also within the space of three yeares after in which space the Religion of the Christian world was not generally changed as wee see manifestly by all histories of that tyme therefore the Religion which was vniuersally in the world in Bonifacius his tyme was the same religion with that which was vniuersally in the world in tyme of S. Gregorye which Religion you confesse to be the right Moreouer that in the foresaid space of three yeares it was not changed besides the Testimony which is taken out of the histories of that tyme where no mention is made of such a change by friend or foe but all things currant as before in matters of faith I cōfirme first by the practise of Sainct Augustine and his companie who being sent by Pope Gregorie brought Papistrie from him into England as is largly obserued in the Protestants Apologie and by your learned men there confessed Prot. Apol tr 1. Sect. ◠I prooue it secondly by the writings of such as liued in the sixt Age wherein are expresly contained all pointes of Papistrie which you may finde in Coccius and Gualterius if you take the paines and I will put downe if it be required Thirdly it is not only incredible to any man of iudgment but also manifestly vnpossible by reason of the diuine ordinance and promise of Iesus Christ that all Christiā people in the space of three yeares without meeting in common Councell without resistance of any zealous men without force of armes or other constraint should generally change the religion of the whole world and conspire all generally for you cannot produce any one man who stood for your Religion in that tyme which you would haue vs beleeue was the Religion of the first six hundred yeares there is not in histories mention of any one Protestant man then resisting therefore I say againe it is vnpossible that they should conspire all all kingdomes all states all Prouinces all Natiōs all vniuersities all Bysshops and generally all men liuing learned and vnlearned good and bad Pastors and people against the Euidence of the former Religion against the Religion of the Christian world which you foolishly suppose to haue bene the Protestant howsoeuer against the Religion of the world before them maintayned to that tyme by Fathers Writings and Authority by the force and power of cleere Successiō in the Chaires of Christs Apostles by the word of God interpreted by the Spirit in knowne Saincts by consent of Nations and generally of the Christian world and finally by the seale of infinite miracles recorded euery where and fresh in memory which Religion they had seene exercised in all the Christian world with their owne eies and had practised their owne selues Yet this you make a companie of sillie people to beleeue on your word Isa 59.21 Io 14.16 Ephes 4.14 against a world of eie witnesses against all rhe men of that age yea against Gods couenant with his Church and against the expresse promise of Iesus Christ THIRD CHAPTER Further confirmation that the Companie of Christians in communion with the Bysshop of Rome is the Church 19. THe former Argument because I know you will striue what you can to cauil at it I will second with another taken out of the confession of your Deuines and though I loathe to rehearce their fowle speaches and errours against the Church and her doctrine yet some of thē here I will set in your way desiring the
the Church in later tymes did conforme her iudgment to the iudgment of the church in former tymes and esteeme it infalliblie This is true at all tymes from the Apostles to this daie therfore all the Church of all this tyme is against your affirmation and your affirmation against the Spirit of all this Church pastors and people 〈◊〉 and learned auncient and moderne 53. Fourthlie 4. Confir If all Christians be warranted by Iesus Christ the Sonne of God and true God to heaâ—e the Church and to 〈…〉 iudgment then is it vnpossible that the generall resolution of the Church in matter of faith though not fundamentall in your sense be false and coÌ„tradict the eternall truth because God being truth and goodnes obligeth not men to erre and to contradiction But all Christians are so warranted Luk. 10. v. 16. He which heareth you heareth me he which contemneth you contemneth me It is therfore vnpossible that the generall resolution of the Church in matter of faith though such as you call not fundamentall be false therfore it hath by Gods prouidence the assistance of the Spiritt of truth in euerie such generall resolution 54. Fiftlie If the whole Church theÌ„ all Bisshopes all Fathers though consenting all together aÌ„d teaching vniformely may haue erred in matters of faith which are not of your fundamentalles 5. Confir Whence it followes that whatsoeuer they haue said or beleeued or receaued aboue those fewe fundameÌ„talles may be false aÌ„d consequentlie nothing nothing at all in matter of faith is certaine but onelie those fewe fundamentalles Why then may not the rest of deuinitie yea all the rest of the scripture be false and why may not old damned heresies howsoeuer in the primitiue tyme abhorred be true If you offer to answere that you â—â—owe certainlie those things to be false and the rest of the scripture to be true I replie that you doe either pretend to know this by the spiritte and therby you admitte what before in your distinctioÌ„ you denied or you pretend to know it by your witte and then you entangle your selfe more in in the bryers for how will you make it euident that your witte cannot erre in these matters if all other wittes might haue erred 55. Hauing lighted here on the consideration of the fonde esteeme you haue of your owne witte aboue the world I begin to see that you affect a place farre aboue the qualitie of your person though this disorder in affection be in a manner secrette from your selfe You iudge and determine controuersies in matters not fundamentall as you speake and this men see aÌ„d your forwardnes herein hath enforced me to this answeare Now you take this office of determining these controuersies froÌ„ the Church as wee haue seene oft before aÌ„d if you would acknowledge it to be there I neede write no more of this matter This throne was high but you affect a higher yet which I shew for either in this matter of determining these controuersies you giue place to the Spiritt as to the iudge or you doe not if you doe the Spirittes holie assistance is exteÌ„ded further then to your fundamentalles if you doe not you sitte in the throne aÌ„d iudge for you determine them against vs. Let Christians tell me now whether you vsurpe the place or not 57. Sixtlie your errour is fuÌ„dameÌ„tall 6. Confirmâ— therfore the opposite which the Churche beleeue this a fundamentall truth And consequentlie in your prâ—ciples you must coÌ„fesse that she doth not erre in it for you say she erreth not in fuÌ„dameÌ„talls That your errour is fundameÌ„tall I prooue because that errour is fundamentall which is the ground of infinite errours but yours is the grouÌ„d of infinite errours because it takes away the certaiÌ„tie froÌ„ all Gods word and all deuinitie those fewe pointes onelie excepted which you call fundamentall 58. Moreouer to touch your fundamentalles also 7. Confirm It takes away all certaintie in them first because you leaue noe meanes to knowe which they be and secondlie because you leaue noe meanes to know they be diuinelie reuealed if it were knowne which in particular they al were for the authoritie of the Church proposeth equallie the whole Scripture and therfore if it sufficeth for any chapter or point it sufficeth for euery chapter and euerie point And the Spiritte of God did equallie direct the writer in all and it is Gods word all and therfore if the Spiritts direction or Gods authoritie serue to warrant some it serues to warrant all and if it be not able to warrant all it is vnable to warrant any at all 59. You thinke I haue done now but harke further Your assertion doth scandalize the Christian world if it may be scandalized for you take away all certaintie from the word of God in all pointes and partes but some twelue propositions which you call fundamentall 8. Confirm denying that there is at all any meanes to know certainlie that the rest is Gods word This I proue and I take the Gospell of S. Iohn or to declare it more fullie I take all the Bible and argue thus Either the Spiritte of God doth assist his Church to know certainlie that all in the Bible ouer and aboue your fuÌ„dameÌ„tall pointes is the word of God or it doth not Make your choise If it doth not there is no way to know certainely that it is the word of God for men of themselues and without Gods assistance all might erre especiallie in obscure matters as those are and in this especiallie which is to know whether God spake those wordes or noe If it doth the field is ours for euerie thing there is not one of the fundamentalles 60. The same argumente may be made of the sense of any place for either the place is fundamentall and such are fewe by your accompt or the place is not fundamentall and then excluding the assistance of the Spiritte you haue noe waie to be assured of the sense 61. Let vs oÌ„ to the triall of this argumeÌ„t OpeÌ„ your Bible turne to the first Chapter of Genesis and reade the first verse In the begining God created heaueÌ„ and earth Of this verse I demauÌ„d eight things First whether you be certaine that it is the word of God and how SecoÌ„dlie whether it be a fundamentall place or be not Thirdlie how you doe know certainlie that it is or that it is not fundamentall Fourthlie whether there be meanes to knowe certainlie the sense if neede require Fiftlie what are the meanes which may assure men of the sense Sixtlie whether there be any meanes to knowe certainlie whether in these words be more literall seÌ„ses theÌ„ one Seuenthlie whether the assistance of the Spiritte be or be not necessarie to the certaine knowledge or assurance of these things Eightlie whether this assistance be promised to the Church or to others out of it as to Heretiques and pagans These eight things I demaund about that verse and when you
of their visibilitie But God as I said hath not yet permitted the booke of life to be coppied out and diuulged Iohn 4.23 1. Io. 2.27 109. You obiect first that true worshippers adore in Spirit and truth and vnction teacheth all This is true But those worshippers those ānointed are in the Church they are a part ād the chiefest part of the visible communitie whereof I haue spoken in the second booke they are in the visible fold of Christ Were the Apostles and the rest of their Religion the true Church or no were they was that Bodie that communitie visible or inuisible their sermons were not they heard were not their writings seene went not their sound ouer all the world why then they were visible As for the vnctiō it teacheth the Catholique Church it teacheth men to giue assent to such things as the Apostles then did and their Successors now doe propose They may preach and be heard allso but without vnction the people will not beleeue 1. Cor. 3. Paul planteth and Apollo watereth but God giueth the increase In the same Catholique Church are those adorers in Spirit and in the middest of it the sanctification of God is foreuer The Apostles did they adore in Spirit or no if they did whie may not a visible Church do so if they did not who will beleeue that you do 110. Secondlie you obiect that there are none in the Church but predestinate If you speake of the Church triumphant you say true if you speake of the militant Church it is not so for all those that for a tyme adhere vnto this bodie and are parts of it do not finallie perseuere some are multiplied aboue number and beleeue a while but reuolt and fall of before they die The Church militant is the companie of beleeuers in communion with S. Peeter and his See It is the companie of Catholiques And Catholiques some are in charitie and in the grace of God and are saued some die in mortall sinne some loose their faith at last 1. Tim 1. In the primitiue Church some made shipwracke of their faith as Hymeneus and Alexander saith the Apostle Some do beleeue for a tyme said our B. Sauiour Luk. 8.1 and in tyme of tēptation do reuolt And the Spirit manifestlie saith that in the last tymes certaine shall depart from the faith attending to the Spiritts of errour 1. Tim. 4 Matth. 2 14. Many are called but fewe chosen There are some with wedding garments and some without some wise virgins some foolish some corne some chaffe some vessells of honour some of dishonour some good some bad some predestinate some reprobate in the Church The predestinate will perseuer the rest will not 111. I come now to the second part of this Chapter wherein I am to loosesome tyme in asking a question or two about your dombe-preaching Church about the Saincts of your election about those people which were in all tymes but neuer before Luther and in all Nations before his tyme but no wherein the world And I demand first whether all the rest were like you or no if they were why then were they inuisible You say you are predestinate and yet you are visible notwithstanding your predestination and a member of that Church whie then might not the other men be visible allso euerie one of thē and the whole visible 112. I demaund secondlie whether you do knowe the rest of your Church the rest of your predestinate breethren or whether you knowe none of that Church but your selfe onely ād whether euery one in that Church knowe himselfe onelie and no more If you do not knowe any of them what Societie cā you haue among you what gouerment what forme of a Church If you do knowe any I desire to heare how wee finde not your names in the Scripture the booke of life is not printed with the Gospell 2. Tim. 2.19 Iohn 10.14 wee reade there that our Lord knowes who be his that our greate Pastor knowes his sheepe That you can do it that you can number all his sheepe that you can point them out wee reade not I pray you howe come you to knowe the secret is it by exterior profession that serues not they may dissemble and which is worse for you none professed your religion for 900 yeeres togeather and therefore by profession you knowe none in all that tyme. Neither would an vnfained profession haue serued the turne for euerie one that persuades himselfe that he beleeues is not constant in the faith nor predestinate What then be the certaine markes whereby you knowe your inuisible brethrē that wee may knowe them too or do you not indeed knowe them Remember what hath ben said in the first booke if you knowe them let vs heare the markes the markes of a predestinated Protestant and bringe vs one example any tyme for 900. yeeres before Luther of such a man an example out of questiō a manifest example If you do not knowe them you cannot conferre with them in your difficulties you cannot helpe them in their necessities you cannot meete in Councell as the Apostles and Pastors did in the primitiue Church you cannot haue the face nor the gouerment of a Church 133. I must examine further by your leaue In your Catholique Church of predestinate is there order or confusion are there Pastors ād Doctors and Bysshops or no Bysshops no Pastors no Doctors is there a Hierarchie or not are the preachers and Superintendents seene and heard or how are the things dōne The reason of my demand or doubt is because this Catholique Church of yours is inuisible and therefore it seemes that no man can see the Preacher otherwise many in the companie might see him if not all and so he were visible He allso might see them he preached vnto and so they were visible too and consequentlie the whole companie and the whole Church were visible not inuisible 114. It might seeme by your talke that this holie Congregation of yours hath greate eares and no eies for if they had eies they might then see the Ministers that instructe them they might see their Superintendents Or if they can heare and not see these Ministers their eares reach a greate deale further then their eies But this will not content me neither if yo graunt it for that which may be heard makes a noise and by the noise discouers it selfe if therefore your predestinated Preachers haue made a noise in the world the Christians or Papists liuing with them should haue heard it though they could not see those inuisible men and this at least would be found on record as other wonders are to wit That in all Christian countries there was a Protestant noise ād sermons euerie where in euerie Nation but no preacher seene this would haue bene found in the Chronicles of all countries and some would haue bene so curiouse as to haue noted the points of the Sermons and set downe the doctrine But