which is not contayned in the written Word and therefore they must admit for a ground of Faith some Word of God not written D. Whyte answered Although at that time when S. Paul wrote the text alledged some part of Gods word was not written yet afterwards all needfull to be belieued was written This D. Whyte said but did not not cannot proue especially out of any parte of the written Word D. Woyte alledged this text Omnis scriptura diuinit 〈…〉 inspirata vtilis est c But as M. Fisher then tould him this Text doth not proue the point which is to be proued For this text doth not say that all which is diuinely inspired was written or that Genesis Exodus and other particuler books are diuinely inspired or that nothing is to be belieued which is not contayned in scripture but only saith That all or euery Scripture diuinely inspired is profitable D. Whyte said Scripture is not onely said simply to be profitable but to be profitable to argue to teach to correct to instruct that the man of God may be perfect and therfore being profitable to all these offices it may be said to be sufficient M. Fisher replyed Although wood be profitable to make the substance of the house to make wainscot to make tables and stooles and other furniture yet hence doth not follow that wood alone is sufficient to build and furnish a house I will notsay that heere D. White was at a Nonplus because I vnderstand that word Nonplus doth not please him but the truth is that to this D. Whyte did make no answere And for my part I professe I do not see what answere he could haue made to the purpose and worthy of that Honorable and vnderstanding Audience D. Whyte therefore without saying any thing to this instance seemed to be weary and giving the paper to M. Fisher had him read on M. Fisher taking the paper read the fourth Point in which was sayd That at the word of God manifested to the Apostles and by them to their immediate hearers was not to cease at their death but was to be continued and propagated without change in and by one or other companie of visible Pastours Doctours and lawfully-sent preachers successiuely in all ages c. All which to be true being at last graunted or not denyed by D. Whyte M. Fisher proposed the first of the two arguments set downe in the aforesaid Paper viz. If there must be in all ages one or other continuall succession of visible Pastours Doctours and lawfully-sent Preachers by whom the vnchanged word of God vpon which Faith is grounded was preserued c preached in all ages since Christ and no other is visible or can be shewed besides those of the Roman Church and such as agree in Faith with them Then none but the Pastours of the Romane Church and such as agree in Faith with them haue that one infallible diuine vnchanged Faith which is necessarie to saluation But there must be such a visible succession none such can be shewed different in Faith from the Pastours of the Roman Church Ergo. Onely the Pastours of the Romane Church and such as agree in Faith with them preserue and teach that one infallible diuine vnchaunged Faith which is necessarie to saluation D. Whyte answered That it was sufficient to shew a succession of visible Pastours teaching vnchanged doctrine in all points fundamentall although not in points not fundamentall M. Fisher replyed saying First that if time permitted he could proue all pointes of diuine Faith to be fundamentall supposing they were points generally held or defined by full authority of the Church to which purpose he did recite the beginning of this sentence of S. Augustine Ferendus est disputator errans in alijs quaestionibus non diligenter digestis nondum plena authoritate Ecclesia firmatis ibi ferendus est error non tantùm progredi debet vt ipsum fundamentum quatere moliatur In which S. Auston insinuateth that to erre in any questions defined by full authority of the Church is to shake the foundation of Faith or to erre in points fundamentall But M. Fisher not hauing the booke at hand and fearing to be tedious in arguing vpon a text which he had not ready to shew passed on and secondly required D. Whyte to giue him a Catalogue of all points fundamentall or a definition or description well proued out of Scripture and in which all Protestants will agree by which one may discerne which be and which be not points fundamentall D. Whyte reiected this demaund as thinking it vnreasonable to require of him a Catalogue or definition or description of Points fundamentall out of Scripture in which all Protestants will agree But considering in what sense D. Whyte did understand this distinction of points fundamentall and not fundamentall to wit that none could be saued who did not belieue all pointes fundamentall rightly and that none should be damned for not belieuing other pointes vnles he did wilfully against his conscience deny or not belieue them M. Fishers demand was both reasonable and most necessary for sith all Protestants agree in houlding it necessarie to be certaine of their saluation and that none can be saued who do not belieue all points fundamentall and that in these pointes one must not content himselfe with implicite Faith but must expressely know them it is most necessary that all Protestants should out of Scripture which they pretend to be their onely Rule of Faith find and conclude with vnanimous consent certainly what is and what is not a fundamentall point of Faith necessary to saluation For whiles some hould more some lesse to be fundamentall and none of them giueth out of Scripture a sufficient rule by which it may be discerned which is and which is not fundamentall how can ech particuler Protestant rest assured that he belieueth expresly all points fundamentall or so much as is necessary and sufficient to make him assured of saluation But to returne to the Relation D. Whyte hauing reiected M. Fishers demand requiring a Catalogue definition or description out of Scripture in which all Protestants will agree said That all those points were fundamentall which were contained in the Creed of the Apostles M. Fisher might haue asked him diuers questions vpon this answere 1. What text of scripture taught him that all the points contained in the Apostles Creed were fundamentall in the sense aforesaid Or That this Creed was composed by the Apostles as a summary of Faith contayning points needfull at least necessitate Praecepti to be expresly belieued by all men The Church indeed so teacheth but the Scripture hath not any text which doth expressly say so or whence by necessarie consequence so much may be gathered and therefore according to Protestant principles permitting nothing to be belieued but Onely Scripture the Apostles Creed ought not to be beleiued as a rule of any point of Faith and much lesse a rule containing all
principall and fundamentall points of Faith 2. M. Fisher might haue asked Whether Onely the words of the Creed are needfull to be held as a sufficient foundation of Fayth or the Catholique senses If onely the wordes then the Arrians and other condemned Heretikes may be sayd to haue held all the fundamentall points sufficient to Saluation which is contrary to the iudgement of Antiquity and is most absurd If the Catholique sense then the question must be who must be iudge to determine which is the catholique sense and whether it be not most reasonable and necessary that the Catholique Church it selfe rather then any particuler man or Sect of men should teach the true sense When especially the holy Ghost was promised to the catholique church and not to any particuler man or Sect of men differing in doctrine from it to teach it all Truth 3. M. Fisher might haue asked whether all points fundamentall were expressed in the creed or not If they be not by what other rule shall one know what is a point fundamentall If all which is fundamentall be expressed in the creed then to belieue only Scripture or to belieue that there is any Scripture at all is not fundamentall or necessary to Saluation but to belieue the catholique church and consequently the truth of all such doctrines of Fayth which she generally teacheth or defineth in her generall councells is fundamentall So as we may say with S. Athanasius Whosoeuer will be saued must belieue the catholique Fayth that is the Fayth taught by the catholique church and this not only in part or in a corrupt sense but in all points and in catholique sense For as the same S. Athanasius saith vnles one belieue the said Catholique faith integram inuiolatam entiere and inuiolate without doubt he shall perish euerlastingly All these questions M. Fisher might haue asked but he at that present only asked Whether all articles of the Creed were held by D. Whyte to be fundamentall To which Question D. Whyte answered That all was fundamentall M. Fisher asked Whether the article of christs descending into hell were fundamentall D. Whyte said Yes Why then said M. Fisher did M. Rogers affirme That the Church of England is not yet resolued what is the right sense of that Article It was answered that M. Rogers was a priuate man M. Fisher replyed That his Booke in the title professeth to be set out by publique authority To which M. Fisher might haue added That the Booke so set out by publique authority beareth title of the Catholique or Vniuersall doctrine of the church of England by which addition is shewed a difference betwixt this book of M. Rogers and some others which were obiected to be set out by licence of the catholique side for these our books are only licenced to come out in the name of such or such a priuate author and as books declaring his priuate opinions but this of M. Rogers was authorized and graced with the title of the Catholique doctrine of the church of England and therfore ought by Protestants to be more respected then other priuate mens books M. Fisher not thinking it necessary to presse this difference returned againe to D. Whytes first answere to the maine argument in which he hauing said That it was sufficient to shew a visible succession of such as held points fundamentall did implicitely graunt it necessary that a succession should be shewed of such visible Pastours as did hold all points which at least himself held to be fundamentall or necessary to saluation Whereupon M. Fisher bad D. Whyte name a continuall companie or succession of visible Protestants different from the Romane Church which they call Papists holding all points which he accounted fundamentall D. Whyte expresly graunted That he could not shew such a visible succession of Pastours and Doctours differing in doctrine from the Romane church who held all points which he accounted fundamentall Which his ingenuous confession I desire the Reader to note applying it to the argument which M. Fisher proposed shewing that Onely the Roman church hath had such a succession For if as the argument vrgeth one such succession hath bene and none differing in doctrine from the Roman can be shewed by D. Whyte being accounted a prime Protestant Controuersist who may teach such as D. Featly as was lately professed by D. Featly himself we may absolutely conclude that no such visible succession was of Protestants so farre as they differ in doctrine from the Roman church and consequently till they assigne some other which they can neuer do they must acknowledge the Romane to be the only church or at least a church which hath had a visible succession teaching the vnchanged Faith of christ in all ages in all points at least fundamentall which being acknowledged worthily might M. Fisher aske as he did aske D. Whyte Why Protestants made a schisme from the Romane church and why Protestants did persecute Romane catholiques contrary to the custome of the ancient Fathers who still kept vnity with other churches although in their opinion holding errours vntill the catholique church by full authority defined them to be errours in Faith and that after such definition of the church which was yet neuer made against the Romane church they would still obstinatly persist in errour as appeareth in S. Cyprians case To these demaunds made by M. Fisher D. Whyte answered We do not persecute you for Religion About which answere I desire the gentle Reader to obserue that M. Fisher asked two Questions 1. Why Protestants made a schisme from the Romane church 2. Why Protestants did persecute Romane catholiques To the first of these questions being about Schisme D. Whyte answered not a word and yet this was the most important Question sufficient to shew Protestants to be in a damnable state vnles they repent and returne to vnity with the Roman church For on the one side it cannot be denyed but that schisme or separation of ones selfe from church-Vnity is a most damnable sinne which cannot be made lawfull for any cause nor cannot without repentāce returning to Vnity be washed away euen with martyrdome it selfe as the ancient Fathers confesse And on the other side it is euident euen confessed by some Protestants that Protestants did separate themselues from the Romane Church which is confessed to be the mother Church and which cannot be shewed to haue separated it selfe from a former church yet extant as the true church of christ must alwayes be visibly extant Neither can there be shewed any other reason why Protestants did make and continue this their separation then were or might haue bene alledged by Heretiques and Scismatiques of ancient times separating themselues from the catholique Roman church For setting asyde all temporall respects which doubtles were but were very insufficient and vnworthy causes why some did first and do yet continue this separation there cannot be imagined any pretended cause which may not be reduced to
these two heads to wit corruption of Manners or corruption of Doctrine Corruption of manners is not a just cause to make one leaue the Faith Sacraments and rites of the church our Sauiour hauing sufficiently forewarned what is to be done in this case when he said Vpon the chaire of Moyses the Scribes and Pharisees have sitten all therefore that they say vnto you obserue and do but according to their works do not For by this is shewed that the separation which in other places of Scripture is commanded is not meant so as if it were to be made by neglecting or contradicting the doctrine of lawfully authorized Pastours or by corporally absenting ones selfe from communicating with them in necessary Sacraments and church Rites but only spiritually to departe from the imitation of their ill manners The second to wit corruption of Doctrine pertayning to the common Faith of the catholique Church neither did nor can happen to the whole visible church christ hauing promised that the holy Ghost shal be alwaies with it to teach it all Truth and that Hell-gates shall neuer so preuaile against it as to ouerthrow in it the fundation of all goodnes to wit true Faith And for other errours in such questions as are not determined by full authority of the said catholique church S. Austens rule is to be obserued whom when he saith Ferendus est disputator errans neither must one for the errour of a few leaue the society and communion of all neither must one or a few presuming vpon their owne priuate reading and interpreting of scripture or their priuate spirit which is or may be the comō pretext of all Heretiques censure condemne the doctrine or practise of the vniuersall Catholique Church to be erroneous which to doe is by S. Bernards sentence Intollerable Pride and in S. Austans iudgment Insolent madnes The beginning therefore and continuance of the Schisme and separation of the Protestants from the Catholique Romane Church in which euen as Caluin confesseth there was made a discession departure from the whole world is very damnable and altogether inexcusable Which perhaps was the cause why D. Whyte passed ouer that part of the Question touching this Schysme with silence and onely answered as is aboue said to the other parte saying We do not persecute you for Religion To which answere M. Fisher replyed saying You do vs wrong for my self being a prisoner was never taxed with any state matter but do suffer for Religion L. M. B. made another answere saying You of your side did first persecute Protestants M. Fisher answered that we Catholiques hold all points in which Protestants differ from vs in doctrine of faith to be fundamentall and necessary to be belieued or at least not denyed and so may haue cause to punish them who deny or contradict But Protestants who believe catholiques to hold right in all points which themselues esteeme fundamentall have no reason to persecute vs for supposed errours in points not fundamentall which Protestants do not account damnable For better cleering wherof M. Fisher asked D. White whether he thought errour in a point not fundamentall to be damnable D. White said No vnles one hold it against his conscience M. Fisher asked How one could hould an errour against his conscience meaning that one could not inwardly in his conscience believe that be true which he knew in his conscience to be an errour D. White answered That by peruersity of will he might hould an errour against the knowne truth Which answere is true if he meane that one who knoweth the truth at this instant may after by peruersity of Will incline the Vnderstanding to hold the contrary errour But that at the same instant he should know the truth actually and yet actually hold in the same instant the contrary errour in his conscience or inward knowledg is more then I think any Philosopher can explicat For this were to know and not know and to belieue two contraries Truth and Errour about the same obiect in the same subiect the inward conscience at one and the same instant which is impossible M. B. meruayling at D. Whites answere asked him againe the same question saying May one be saued that holdeth errour in points of Faith not fundamentall supposing he hould not against his conscience D. White sayd Yes Those faith M. B. who suffering for conscience hould errour in Faith against their conscience are worthy to be damned M. Fisher hauing obserued that D. White had insinuated that one might be damned for holding errour in points of Faith not fundamenall in case he hould them against his conscience said If it be damnable to hold errours in points not fundamentall in case one hold them willfully against his conscience à fortiori it is damnable to hold the like errours wilfully and obstinatly against the known iudgment and conscience of the Church For as S. Bernard saith Qua major superbia quà m vt vnus homo iudicium suum praeferattoti Congregationi What greater pride then that one man should preferre his iudgment or conscience before the iudgment and conscience of the whole Church D. Whyte said he remembred that sentence of S. Bernard but it is not remembred that he gaue any good answere either to that sentence or to the argument confirmed by it Neither indeed can he giue any good answere in regard it is certaine that the iudgment conscience of the whole Church or Congregation of so many faithfull wise learned and vertuous men assisted by the promised Spirit of truth is incomparably more to be respected and preferred before the iudgment and conscience of any priuate man as appeareth by that of Christ our Sauiour who without excepting any who pretendeth to follow his conscience and without distinguishing the matter in which he pretendeth to follow it into points fundamentall not fundamentall absolutely affirmeth He that will not heare that is belieue and obey the Church let him be to thee as an Heathen Publican Hence Protestants who preferre their priuate Iudgment and Conscience before the iudgment and conscience of the Catholique Church in interpreting Scriptures or otherwise may learne in what state they remaine so long as they do thus being by the Censure of S. Bernard extremely Proud and in the indgement of S. Austen insolently madde and by the sentence of Christ himselfe to be accounted no better then Heathens and Publicans It seemeth that D. Whyte did not deeply ponder this point or els was willing to passe ouer it as a Cat ouer hote coales and so he betooke himselfe to oppugne another part of M. Fishers paper in which is sayd that No company of visible Pastours deliuering vnchanged doctrine could be shewed in all ages besydes those of the Romane Church D. Whyte denyed this to be true and notwithstanding he had before said that he could not shew any companie differing in doctrine from the Roman Church holding in all ages all fundamentall
not signanter and expresly make this precise Answere which now he maketh nor scarse any part of it as appeareth by the Relation of the first Conference made by the Iesuite in fresh memory and conferred with D. White himself who did not at that time contradict it in this point Thirdly the reason which moued the Iesuite to say that D. White had secured him as is said in this Relation was for that D. White in the said first Conference graunted that there must be one or other church continually visible which had in all ages taught the vnchanged Fayth of Christ in all points fundamentall and being vrged to assigne such a church D. Whyte expressely graunted that he could not assigne and shew any church different from the Roman which held in all ages all points fundamentall Whence the Iesuite gathered his opinion to be that the Roman church held and taught in all ages vnchanged Fayth in all fundamentall points and did not in any age erre in any point fundamentall Whereupon the Iesuite asked whether errours in points not fundamentall were damnable D. White answered they were not so long as one did not hold them against his conscience which Answere he repeated againe to M. B. asking the same question Out of all which the Iesuite did collect that D. Whites opinion was that the Roman church held all points fundamentall and only erred in points not fundamentall which he accounted not damnable so long as one did not hold them against his conscience and thereuppon the Iesuit might well say that D. White had giuen security to him who holdeth no Faith different from the Roman nor contrary to his owne conscience As for D. Whites saying he could discerne but small loue of truth and few signes of grace in the Iesuite I will let it passe as the censure of an Aduersary looking vpon the Iesuite with eyes of dislyke which is not to be regarded further then to returne vpon him not a like censure but a charitable wish that he may haue no lesse loue of truth nor fewer signes of grace then the Iesuite is thought to haue by those who know him better then D. White doth e The Chaplain noteth that the B. was confident and had reason of his confidence For sayth he To belieue the Scripture and Creed in the sense of the Ancient Primitiue Church to receiue the first fowre Generall Councells so much magnified by Antiquity To belieue all points of doctrine generally receiued as fundamentall in the Church of Christ is a Fayth in which to liue and dye cannot but giue saluation And I would fayne see sayth the chaplain any one point maintained by the church of England that can be proued to depart from the foundation To which I answer first that if to say thus be a sufficient cause of confidence I meruayle why the chaplain maketh such difficulty to be confident of the saluation of Rom. Catholiques who belieue all this in a farre better maner then Protestants do neyther can they be proued to depart from the foundation so much as Protestants do who denying infallible authority to all the Pastours of the cath church assembled in a Generall councell do in effect deny Infallibility to the whole catholique church which is bound to heare belieue what is defined and to practise what is prescribed by her Pastours in a generall councell and ordinarily doth so belieue and practise Secondly I aske how Protestants who admit no certaine and infallible meanes and rule of Fayth beside onely Scripture can be infallibly sure that they belieue the same entier scripture and creed and the foure first Generall councels c. in the same vncorrupted sense which the Primitiue Church belieued What text of scripture doth tell that Protestants who now liue do belieue all this or that all this is expressed in those particuler Bibles or in the writings of the Fathers or Councells which now are in the Protestants handes or that Protestants do rightly vnderstand the sense of all which is expressed in their bookes according to that which was vnderstood by the Primitiue Church and the Fathers which were present at the foure first Generall Councells Or that all and onely those points which Protestants do account to be fundamentall and necessary to be expresly knowne by all were so accounted by the Primitiue Church I suppose neither the B. nor the Chaplain can produce any text of scripture sufficient to assure one of all this And therefore he had need to seeke some other Infallible rule and meanes by which he may know these things infallibly or els he hath no reason to be so confident as to aduenture his soule that one may be saued liuing and dying in the Protestant Fayth f Heere I note that the Iesuite was as confident for his part as the B. for his but with this difference that the B. had not sufficient reason of his Confidence as I haue declared But the Iesuite had so much reason both out of expresse scriptures and Fathers and the infallible authority of the Church that the B. himself then did not nor his Chaplaine now doth not taxe the Iesuit of any rashnes but the Chaplain expresly graunteth that There is but one sauing Faith and the B. did as was related graunt that the La. might be saued in the Rom. Fayth which is as much as the Iesuite did take vpon his soule Onely the chaplain saith without any proofe that we haue many dangerous errours but he neither tels vs which they be nor why he thinketh them dangerous but leaueth vs to look to our owne soules and so we do and haue no cause to doubt because we do not hold any new deuise of our owne or any other man or any thing contrary but all most conformable to scriptures interpreted by Vnion consent of Fathers and definitions of Councells Which being so the B. and his chaplaine had need to looke to their soules for if there be but one sauing Fayth as the Chaplain graunteth and he hath reason because S. Paul sayth Ephes. 4. Vna fides One Fayth and S. Leo serm de Natiuit Nisi vna est fides non est vnlesse it be One it is not Fayth and this One Fayth was once the Roman which also yet is as the B. graunteth a sauing Fayth or else he ought not to haue granted that one may be saued liuing dying in it I see not how they can haue their soules saued without they entirely imbrace this Fayth being the Cath. Fayth which as S. Athanasius in Symb. affirmeth vnles one hold entiere that is euery point of it and inuiolate that is belieuing all in right sense and for the true formall reason of diuine reuelation sufficiently applied to our vnderstāding by the Infallible authority of the Cath. Church proposing to vs by her Pastours this reuelation without doubt he shall perish for euer In which sort if the B. and his chaplain did belieue any one Article they finding the same
one or other such succession of Visible Pastors and no other can be shewed out of approued Histories or ancient monumēts besides that of the Roman Church only and such others as agree with it in Faith Ergo. The Roman Church only and such others as agree with it in Faith hath true diuine infallible Faith necessarie to saluation The Consequence of the Maior cannot with reason be denied and if it be it shal be proued The Minor hath two partes The first wherof is plaine by that which is already said and if need be it shal be more fully proued out of holy Scriptures The second part may be made manifest first out of Histories secondly out of the confession of Protestants The second Argument If the Roman Church had the right Faith and neuer changed any substantiall part of Faith Then it followeth that it hath now that one true diuine infallible Faith which is necessary to saluation But the Roman Church once had the right Faith and neuer changed any substantiall part of Faith Ergo. The Roman Church now hath the right Faith and consequently Protestants so far as they disagree with it haue not the right soule-sauing Faith The Maior is euident The Minor hath two partes The first is cleere out of S. Paul Rom. 1. and is confessed by Protestants The second part I proue thus Yf the Roman Church changed any substantiall part of Faith then there may be shewed the point changed the person which was the Authour of that change the time when and place where the change was made others may be named who persisting in the ancient Faith continued opposition against the innouation and change as may be shewed in other like and lesse changes and namely in Luthers and Caluins change But these circumstances cannot be shewed Ergo. No change If my Aduersaries name any point which they affirme to haue beene changed 1. This wil not suffice vnlesse they name the other circumstances of the Author time place and who persisting in the former vnchanged Faith opposed and continued oppositiō against it as against a Nouelty and Heresie as we can do in other changes and namely in that which was by Luther and Caluin 2. These points which they say were changed after the first 600. yeares may be shewed them to haue beene held by more ancient approued Authors in the same sense in which they are held by the Roman Church which doth argue that there was no such change made A briefe Relation of what passed betweene D. White and M. Fisher about the foresaid written Paper THIS forsaid paper passing from one to another came to some hāds who gaue it to D. Francis Whyte to answere and to prepare himselfe to oppugne it in a Conferēce with M. Fisher who whē he wrot it gaue it to the Lady did not thinke or suspect that any such great matter should haue bene made of it as after proued M. D. Whyte hauing as he cōfessed after to M. Fisher had this paper about ten dayes in his handes studying what to say to it came as he was appoynted to the place of meeting and M. Fisher being then a Prisoner was also sent for At the houre and place prefixed both the one and the other as they were bidden sate downe before a few but very Honorable Persons whose names I will onely as M. Fisher first did expresse in these ensuing letters L. K. L. M. B. L. B. M. B. Then D. Whyte drew out a copie of the aforesaid written paper and asked M. Fisher whether he wrote it Vnto which M. Fisher answered I wrote such a thing if it be a true copy I will defend it Then D. Whyte read the first point of the said paper in which was said This is one and has one was diuine Faith c. This saith D. Whyte is true if Faith be vnderstood explicite or implicite Which to be the true sense M. Fisher assented Then D. White read the second point in which was said That this true diuine Faith was wholy prouided vpon the word of God c. This also D. White yielded to be true Then D. White read the third point in which was said That this word of God vpon which Faith was grounded is not only the Word increate but also the Word Created to wit the diuine reuelation made manifest partly by Christes 〈◊〉 preaching partly by the holy Ghosts inward inspiration in 〈◊〉 hartes of the Apostles c. This point also D. White allowed but knowing what followed in the fourth point he asked M. Fisher whether he thought that the holy Ghost was equally in others as in the Apostles M. Fisher said that the inspiratiō of the holy Ghost was promised giuen both to the Apostles others yet not in the same degree nor in the samefull measure but the Apostles as being after Christ the prime foundations of the Church had the holy Ghost in such high degree and full measure that they could and did write Canonicall Scriptures Others that were Pastours and Doctours had it in an inferiour degree yet so as by it they were enabled to teach infallibly and without change the substance of all pointes needfull to saluation especially when in a generall Councell after discussion of the matter they did conclude as the Apostles and Seniours did Visum est spiritui sancto nis It seemeth good to the holy Ghost and vs. The people also had a measure of the same spirit sufficient to enable thē to conceiue rightly and to belieue stedfastly the teaching of their Pastours D. Whyte did not disallow the substance of this answere but only made a verball Obiection saying The Apostles had inspiration Pastours and People onely illumination M. Fisher answered that both Apostles Pastours had inspiration and illumination in regard the motion of the holy Ghost as receiued in the vnderstanding is called Illumination and as receiued in the will it is called Inspiration L. K. bad them leaue that verball controuersy and proceed in the matter D. Whyte excepted against that part of the paper wherin was said That the word of God was partly written partly vnwritten and would haue nothing to be the word of God but what is written in Scripture M. Fisher to iustifie that part of the paper first alledged that Text of S. Paul Hold the traditions which you haue learned whether by our Word or Epistle 2. He made these two ensuing arguments to proue that more is to be belieued by diuine Faith then is written in Scripture It is necessarie to belieue by diuine Faith that Genesis Exodus and other particuler Books are Canonicall and diuine Scripture But this to be so is not assuredly knowen by the only Word written Ergo c. Moreouer Protestants hould and belieue this proposition Nothing is to be belieued by Christian Faith but what is contayned in Scripture But this Proposition is not contayned in the word written Ergo. Somthing is belieued euen by Protestants
Reports giuen out about them to his priuate disgrace and to the preiudice of the Catholique Cause Neither then did he spread papers abroad but only deliuered a very few Copies to speciall friends and this not with intent to calumniate either the B. or the Doctor or to make the papers common but to enable his friends to answere and countermaund such false Reportes as they had heard or might heare Which being so I do not see how the Chaplaine can free himself from the faults of partiality and Calumny wherof he doth accuse the Iesuite vnles he do by some other proofs better then his owne or his Maisters bare affirmation proue that the Iesuite spread such papers shewing also particulerly wherein he did relate partially to his cause and calumnlously against the B. I say relate in regard I do not at this present promise to examine exactly all doctrines insinuated in the Iesuits Relation and impugned by the Chaplaine as neither hauing sufficient leysure nor commodity of Bookes requisite for such a worke but the Relation to haue bene sincere and true free from partiality more free from calumny I vndertake to defend For which purpose I thinke best to set downe the Iesuits Relation for the most part as I find it in the Chaplains printed Copie in greater letters and in a lesser letter the Chaplains chiefest exceptions and my answere vnto them I think the Iesuite himself for his owne particuler respect could be content to let passe this partiall and calumnious Censure of his Relation suffering it patiently as one of the ordinary persecutions which he and others at this day endure for the Catholique Faith and for that peculiar order of life which he professeth vnder the name of the Society of IESVS comforting himself with the exāple of Christ his Apostles who reioyced that they were thoughts worthy to suffer Contumely for the name of Iesus In this respect I say I suppose the Iesuite himself could be content that nothing were said to the Chaplaines Censure But considering the hurt which may come to the common cause by his vniust disgrace I haue thought it necessary to defend the sincerity and truth of his Relation and some of the chief heads of doctrine conteined in it to the intent that hereby men may be moued better to trust what he hath written heretofore or may write hereafter in defence of the Catholique Faith Church lesse trust his Aduersaries who without iust cause do so much endeauour to calumniate his person or writinges M. Fishers Relation of the Conference betvveene a certaine B. and himselfe THE occasion of this Conference was for that it was obserued that in a second Conferēce with D. VVhite all the speach was about particuler matters little or nothing about a Continuall Infallible Visible Church which was the chief and onely point in which a certaine Lady required satisfaction as hauing formerly setled in her mind that it was not for her or other vnlearned persons to take vpon them to iudge of particulers without depending vpon the Iudgment of the true Church This La. therefore hauing heard it graunted in the first Conference that there must be a continual visible Company euer since Christ teaching vnchanged doctrine in all points Fundamentall that is in all points necessary to Saluation desired to heare this confirmed and proofe brought to shew which was that Continuall Infallible Visible Church in which one may and out of which one cannot attaine Saluation And therefore hauing appointed a time of meeting betwixt a certaine B. and my selfe and thereupon hauing sent for the B and me before the B. came the La. a friend of hers came first to the roome where I was debated before me the aforesaid Question and not doubting of the first part to wit That there must be a Continuall Visible Church as they had heard grāted by D. VVhite L. K. c. The Question was which was that Church The La. friend would needs defend that not only the Romane but also the Greeke Church was right I told him that the Greeke Church had plainely changed and taught false in a point of doctrine concerning the Holy Ghost and that I had heard say that euen his Maiesty should say The Greeke Church hauing erred against the Holy Ghost had lost the Holy Ghost The La. friend not knowing what to answere called in the Bishop who sitting downe first excused himself as one vnprouided and not much studied in Controuersies and desiring that in case he should faile yet the Protestant Cause might not be thought ill of it hauing a hundred better Schollers to maintaine it then he To which I said there were a thousand better schollers then I to maintaine the Catholique cause Then the Question about the Greek Church being proposed I said as before that it had erred The B. said that the errour was not in a point Fundamentall Wherupon I was forced to repeate what I had formerly brought against D. VVhyte concerning points fundamentall first reading the sentence of S. Augustine Ferēdus est disputator errans c. Out of which is proued that all pointes defined by the Church are fundamētall Secondly I required to knowe what points the Bishop woulde account fundamētall He said All the points in the Creed were such I asked how then it happened that M. Rogers sayth that the English Church is not yet resolued what is the right sense of the Article of Christ his descending into Hell The B. sayd that M. Rogers was but a priuate man But said I if M. Rogers writing as he did by publique authority be accounted onely a priuate man in what Booke may we find the Protestāts publique Doctrine The B. answered That to the Booke of Articles they were all sworne and the Scriptures only not any vnwrittē Tradition was the foundation of their Fayth I asked how he knew Scripture to be Scripture and in particuler Genesis Exodus c. These are belieued to be Scripture yet not proued out of any place of Scripture The B. said That the Bookes of Scripture are principles to be supposed and needed not to be proued Against this I read what I had formerly written in my Reply to M. Iohn White wherin I plainly in shewed that this Answere were was not good and that no other Answere could be made but by admitting some Word of God vnwritten to assure vs of this point From this the La. called vs desiring to heare whether the B. would grant the Roman Church to be the right Church The B. graunted That it was Further he granted that Protestants made a Rent or Diuision from it Moreouer he said he would ingenuously acknowledge that Corruption of māners was not a sufficient Cause to iustifie their departing from it But said he besides Corruption of manners there were Errours in doctrine which whē the Generall Church would
not reforme it was lawfull for particuler churches to reforme themselues I asked Quo Iudice did this appeare to be so Which question I asked as not thinking it equity that Protestants in their owne Cause should be Accuers Witnesses and Iudges of the Romane Church I also asked Who ought to iudge in this case The B. sayd A Generall Councell I told him that a Generall Councell to wit of Trent had already iudged not the Roman Church but the Protestant to hold Errour That said the B. was not a lawfull Councell So sayd I would the Arrians say of the CouÌ„cell of Nice The B would not admit the case to be like pretending that the Pope made Bishops of purpose for his side but this the B. proued not In fine The B. wished that a lawfull Generall Councell were called to end Controuersies The persons present said The King was enclined therunto and therefore we Catholiques might do well to concurre I asked the B. whether he thought a Generall Councell might erre He said it might If a Generall Councell may erre what neerer are we then sayd I to Vnity after a Councell hath determined yes said he although it may erre yet we shall be bound to hold it till another come to reuerse it After this we all rising The La. asked the B. whether she might be saued in the Roman Fayth he answered Shee might I bad her mark that She sayd the B. may be better saued in it then you D. White said I hath secured me that none of our errours are damnable so long as we hold them not against our CoÌ„science and I hold none against my CoÌ„science The Lady asked Whether she might be saued in the Protestant Fayth Vpon my soule said the B. you may Vpon my my Soule sayd I There is but one sauing Fayth and that is the Roman Vpon this and the precedent Conference the Lady rested fully satisfied in her Iudgment as she tould a friend of the truth of the Roman Churches Fayth Yet vpon frailty feare to offend the King she yielded to goe to Church for which she was after very sorie as some of her friends can testifie I beseech sweet Iesus to giue grace to euery one that offendeth in this sort to see repent and get pardon of their faults past and light of true Fayth in tyme to come for obtayning whereof they had need to pray to God for it and with a great desire to seeke after it and with humility to submit their will and Iudgment to those whom God hath appointed to teach it To wit such Doctours and Pastours as by a visible continuall succession haue without change brought it from christ and his Apostles euen vntill these our dayes and shall by a like succession carry it along euen vntill the end of world The which succession not being found in any other church differing in doctrine from the RomaÌ„ Church I wish the Chaplain his Lord and euery other man carefully to consider whether it be not more Christian and lesse brainsick to thinke that the Pope being S. Peters successour with a Generall Councell should be Iudg of Controuersies that the Pastorall Iudgment of him vpon whom as vpon a firme rock Christ did build his Church and for whose Fayth Christ prayed enioyning him to confirme his brethren and to whose care and gouernent Christ committed his whole flock of lambes and sheep should be accounted Infallible rather then to make euery man that can read Scripture Interpreter of Scriptures Decider of Controuersies Controller of Generall Councels and Iudge of his Iudges Or to haue no Iudge of Controuersies of Fayth to permit euery man to belieue as he list as if there were no Infallible certainty of Fayth to be expected on earth The which were to induce insteed of One sauing Fayth a Babylonicall Confusion of so many Fayths as phantasies or no true christian Fayth at all From which euills sweet IESVS deliuer vs. Amen FINIS 2. Pet. 1. Ibid. Ibid. L. K. Ephes. 4. Heb. 11. Matth. 28. Ioan. 16. Luc. 10. 1. Tim. 2. Ephes. 4. Ioan. 14. 16. Rogers in his doctrine of the Church of England Art 3. Matth. 21. Aug. de verb. apost Ser. 14. Caluin l. Ep. epist. 141. Bern. serm 5. de resurrect Matt. 1â— Act. 5. 41. a To wit absolutly to rely vpoÌ„ their priuate iudgment so as to aduenture Saluation vpoÌ„ it alone or chiefly b The Chaplaine noting the word Infallible to be sometimes put in somtimes left out taxeth M. Fisher of speaking distractedly But I note herein that M. Fisher spake most aduisedly and with precise care of puÌ„ctuall Truth for when he speaketh of what was obserued or desired by the La. he putteth in the word Infallible because he knew it was an infallible Church which she sought to rely vpon But when he speaketh of what D. Whyte or L. K. graunted he leaueth it out because they did not mention the word Infallible but onely granted a visible Church in all ages teaching vnchanged doctrine in all matters necessary to Saluation c The Chaplaine taxeth the Iesuite as if in this parcell he did insult and saith it was the B. his modesty to vse this excuse and to say there were a hundred schollars better then he But I do not see any Insultation but a simple true narration of what was sayd Neyther do I see lesse modesty in the Iesuits preferring a thousand before himself then in the B. his preferring a hundred before himself d The Chaplaine telleth that the Iesuite sayd that what the B. would not acknowledge in this he would wring extort from him But these words of wringing extorting the Iesuite neuer vseth eueÌ„ to his meanest Aduersaries therfore not likely to haue vsed theÌ„ to the B. but at most that he would euince by argument or such like e The Chaplaine faith the B. was not so peremptory his speach was that diuers learned men some of your owne are of opinion as the Greeks expressed themselues it was a question not simply fundamentall But the Iesuite cannot remeÌ„ber the B. to haue said these words yet if he did the Iesuite did not much misse of the chiefe point of the B. his meaning which was by the distinction of Faith fundamentall and not fundamentall to defend the error of the Graecians not to be such although held against the knowen definitiue sentence of the Church as doth hinder saluation or exclude them from being members of the true Church About which see more hereafter f The Chaplains corrupt Copie hath righting instâ—ed of reading the sentence of S. Austen The whole sentence is set downe by the Chaplaine thus This is a thing founded An erring Disputer is to be borne with all in other questions not diligently digested not yet made firme by full auauthority of the Church there errour is to be borne with But it ought
not to goe so far that it should labour to shake the foundation it selfe of the Church S. August Ser. 14. de verbis Apost cap. 12. g Out of this place we may gather that all points defined are fundamental All points defined are as S. Austen speaketh made firme by full authority of the Church But all points made firme by full authority of the Church are fundamentall in such sense as the Iesuite taketh the word fundamentall that is in S. Austens language such as cannot be denyed or doubtfully disputed against without shaking the foundation of the Church For denying or doubtfully disputing against any one why not against another another and so against all sith all are made firme to vs by one and the same diuine reuelation sufficiently applyed by one and the same full authority of the Church which being weakened in any one cannot be to firme in any other h By the word Fundamentall is vnderstood not only those Primae Credibilia or prime Principles which do not depend vpon any former grounds for then all the Articles of the Creed were not as both the B. and D. White say they are fundamentall points but all which do so pertaine to supernaturall diuine infallible Christian faith by which Faith Christ the only prime foundation of the Church doth dwell in our hearts 1. Cor. 3. 11. which Fayth is to the Church the substance basis and foundation of all good things which are to be hoped for Heb. 11. as that they being once confirmed or made firme by full authority of the Church if they are wittingly willingly and especially obstinately denyed or questioned al the whole frame and in a sort the foundation it self of all supernaturall diuine Christian Faith is shaken i The Chaplaine granteth that there are quaedam prima Credibilia or some prime Principles in the bosome whereof all other Articles lay wrapped and folded vp So as euery point of the Creed is not a prime Foundation and therefore the B. himself did not vnderstaÌ„d the word fundamentall so strictly as if that which in one respect is a foundation may not in another respect to wit as included in and depending vpoÌ„ a more prime Principle be accouÌ„ted a superstructure k If the B. meane that Onely those points are fundamentall which are expressed in the Creed of the Apostles I meruayle how he can afterwards account Scriptures wherof no expresse mention is made in the Creed to be the foundation of their Faith But if he meane that not only those are fundamentall which are expressed but also all that is infolded in the Articles of the Creed Then not Scriptures onely but some at least of Church Traditions vnwritten may be accounted fundamentall to wit all those that are inwrapped in these two Articles I belieue in the holy Ghost The holy Catholique Church as all those are which being first reuealed by the holy Ghost vnto the Apostles haue byn by successiue Tradition of the Church assisted by the same holy Ghost deliuered vnto vs one of which is That the Bookes of Scriptures themselues be diuine and infallible in euery part which is a foundation so necessary as if it be doubtfully questioned all the Faith built vpon Scripture falleth to the ground And therefore I meruayle how the B. can say as he doth afterwards in the Relation That Scriptures Onely and not any vnwritten Tradition was the foundation of their Faith l The reason why the Iesuite did specially vrge M. Rogers booke was for that it was both set out by publique authority and beareth the Title of the Catholique doctrine of the Church of England Our priuate Authors are not allowed for ought I know in such a like sort to take vpon them to expresse our Cath. doctrine in any matter subiect to question m By Protestants publick doctrine in this place the Iesuite meant as he vnderstood the B. to meane onely of English Protestants for the words going before making mention only of the English Church do limit the generall word Protestants to this limited sense n This Answer hath reference to that sense which the question had of Onely English Protestantes and not of all English Protestants out of such as the B. and others are who by office are teachers of Protestant doctrine who do either sweare to the booke of Articles or by subscribing oblige themselues to teach that and no contrary doctrine But if the Chaplain to discredit the Relation will needs inforce a larger extent of the sense contrary to the meaning of him that made the answere and him that asked the Question who vnderstood one another in that sense which I haue declared he must know that although none do sweare or subscribe besides the English clergy to the Book of Articles yet all who wil be accounted members of or to haue communion with one and the same English Protestant church are bound eyther to hold all those Articles or at least not to hold contrary to any one of them in regard the English Protestant church doth exclude euery one from their church by Excommunication ipso facto as appeareth in their book of Canons Can. 5. Who shall hold any thing contrary to any part of the said Articles So as in this respect I do not see why any one who pretendeth to be of one and the same Protestant communion with the church of England can be sayd not to be obliged to hold one and the same doctrine which is in the book of Articles not onely as the chaplaine sayth in chiefest doctrines which like a cheuerell point may be enlarged to more by those who agree in more and straitned to fewer by those who agree in fewer points but absolutly in all points and not to hold contrary to any one or any the least part of any one of them Such a shrew as it seemes is the church of England become no lesse then the chaplaine saith the church of Rome to haue bene in denying her blessing and denouncing Anathema against all that dissent although most peaceably in some particulers remote inough from the foundation in the Iudgment of the purer sort both of forraine and home-bred Protestants o The Chaplaine saith The Church of England grounded her positiue Articles vpon Scripture c. True if themselues in their owne cause may be admitted for competent Iudges in which sort some other Nouellist will say that he groundeth his positiue Articles vpon scriptures and his Negatiue refuse not only our Catholique but also Protestant doctrines As for example Baptizing of Infants vpon this Negatiue ground it not expressely at least euidently affirmed in Scriptures nor directly at least not demonstratiuely concluded out of it In which case I would gladly know what the Chaplaine would answere to defend this doctrine to be a point of Faith necessary for the saluation of poore Infants necessitate medij as all Catholique Deuines hold I answere with S. Austen Aug. l. 1. contra Cresc c. 31. Scripturarum Ã
be hoped that all or the maior part will euer so agree as to remaine constant in one and the same mind Hath christ our Lord in this case prouided no meanes no rule no iudge which may Infallibly determine and end controuersyes procure vnity and certainty of belief being so necessary for the honor of God and the good of his church Must people for want of such a iudge rule or meanes continue not only moneths and yeares but whole Ages in vncertainty and disiunity of Fayth and in perpetuall Iarres about euen maine matters of diuine truth There is no earthly Kingdome that in case matters cannot be composed by Parlament which cannot be called vpon all occasions and at all tymes hath not beside the law-bookes some liuing Magistrates and iudges and aboue all one visible King the highest Magistrate and Iudge who hath authority sufficient to end controuersies and procure peace and vnity and certainty of Iudgments about all temporall affayres And shall we thinke that christ the wisest King hath prouided in his kingdome which is the church onely the Law-bookes of Holy Scriptures and no liuing visible Magistrats and Iudges and aboue all One cheife Magistrate and iudge so assisted with his spirit and prouidence as may suffice to end controuersies and breed vnity and certainty of Fayth which neuer can be while euery man may interprete Holy Scripture the Law-booke as he list x The chaplain saith that the B. said not only so but that it was no Generall Councell I answere that if the B. said so it was onely for want of memory that the Iesuite did not relate it so for the Exceptions which the B. did or can make against the lawfulnesse or generallnesse of the Councell of Trent may be made by Arrians against the councell of Nice It is not necessary to the lawfulnesse and generallnesse of a Councell that all Bishops of the world be actually present and actually subscribe or yield assent but that such promulgation be made as is morally sufficient to giue notice that such a Councell is called and that all may come if they will and that a competent number at least the maior part of those which be present yield assent to the decree y As Protestants do thinke that the councell of Trent is not lawfull for hauing in their Iudgment departed from the letter sense of Scripture so did the Arians thinke of the councell of Nice And as Protestants do iustifie that some were sent from the Pope to Trēt and that the Pope was President So doubtlesse did the Arians mislike that at Nice the Pope had Legats who did carry his messages and one of them in his place sate as President z The Chaplain saith that the B. did not say that the Pope made Bishops of purpose c. I answere that the Iesuite doth not say that the B. expresly said to but that by insinuation he did pretend so much which in effect the chaplaine seemeth to graunt when he saith pag. 40. the B. said the Pope made himself a strōg partie in it For although these words may be taken in another sense yet they may also be taken in that sense which the Iesuite by the circumstances of the B. his speach did then vnderstand and expresse in his Relation for that a great number of Italian Bishops which the Chaplain saith the B. alledged as a proof may very well import that the B. cōceiued the Pope to haue made more Italian Bishops then of other Countryes of purpose to haue a strong faction But this proof was so weake as the Iesuite might well say it was no proofe nor worthy of answere or of looking into the book for it it being only a surmise of Aduersaries who are apt to interprete euery thing to the worst Italian Bishops might be more as being neerer as in Greeke Councells more Grecians were present without any factious Combination with the Pope in any other sort then all the Cath. Bishops in the world who are as much vnited with the Pope for matters of Fayth defined in the Councell as any Italian Bishop Neither can the B. proue that any Catholique French or Spanish or of any other Country or the schismaticall Greekes did agree with Protestants in those points which were defined in the Councell especially after it was confirmed by the Pope For they all euen Grecians did do at this day vnanimously oppose Protestāts as appeareth by the Censure of Hieremias the Grecian Patriarch So as if such a free Councell as the B. and others wished were gathered out of East and West Protestants doubtles would be condemned for Heretiques and their negatiue refutes and denialls of ancient Articles for Heresies by more then the double maior Part compared to those who would take their part For although as all Heretiques vse to do Protestants perswade themselues Scriptures to be euident for their opinions and that with euident demon̄trations they should be able to conuince all the world that they teach truth and nothing but truth yet they would find innumerable others as learned to say no more and as well studyed in Scripture and skilfull in making demonstrations who are of another mind a I meruaile in what sort the B. will describe such a Generall Councell and how it should be gathered and what Rules are in it to be obserued which are morally likely so to be obserued as to make an end of cōtrouersies better then our catholique Generall councels b The Chaplaine saith that the B. added a Caution which the Iesuit omitteth saying The determination of a Generall coūcell erring was to stand in force and haue externall obedience at least yielded to it till euidence of Scripture or a demonstration to the contrary made the errour appeare and vntill thereuppon another Councell of equall Authority did reuerse it I answere that added Caution which eyther was not then added or not remembred by the Iesuite maketh the B. his Answere far worse then as the Iesuit did relate For whereas the Iesuite relateth onely thus Although it may erre this caution maketh the case to be that it doth actually erre And whereas the Iesuite relateth That we not knowing whether it do erre or not but only that it may erre are bound to hold it till another come to reuerse it this caution doth put the case so as if the determination of a Generall Coūcell actually erring were not ipso iure inualide but such as is to stand in force to haue externall obedience at least yielded vnto it till not onely morall certainty but euidence of Scripture or a demonstration to the contrary make the errour appeare and after the errour appeareth yet we must continue this yeilding of obedience And how long Vntill thereupon a Councell and not euery Councell but of equall authority do reuerse it which perhaps will not be found in a whole Age. Verily I can not belieue that the B. vpon better aduisement will allow this Caution or giue any
points said that both the Greeke Church and the Protestant Church had such a succession of visible Pastours which two sayings how D. Whyte will reconcile pertayneth to him to declare M. Fisher replyed and tould him that the Greeke Church changed and erred in a point of Faith to wit about the holy Ghost A like or greater change he might and in likelyhood would haue tould him to hauc bene in many points held by the Protestant Church if he had not bin interrupted by L. K. who asked Whether notwithstanding that errour of the Greeke Church Ignorant man might not be saued M. Fisher answered to L. K. his question saying Some ignorant men may be excused from actuall sinne in holding that errour as through inuincible ignorance one holding some errour against the holy Trinity it self may be excused Yet for other actuall sinnes they might be damned for want of meanes necessary for remission of them This answere was meant by M. Fisher of such ignorant men who although by inuincible ignorance excused from the actuall sinne of positiue Infidelity Heresy Scisme wanted true supernaturall Faith Hope and Charity out of which an act of true Contrition springeth or wanted the true and lawfull vse of the Sacrament of Pennance Priestly Absolution which being needfull to obtaine pardon of sinne may easily be wanting to such people as commit other sinnes against the light of nature or against those good motions of Grace which now and then Almighty God giueth to all sorts who consequently through this their owne fault are not illuminated with true supernaturall Faith but are permitted still to remaine in Infidelity or Heresy or Schisme or in a negatiue disposition of want of all Faith deuotion and desire of vnion with God and such good men who truly serve god in his true Church of which sort of ignorant people it is to be doubted there be but to many in all especially Infidel Hereticall or Schismaticall Countries But hence doth not follow neither did M. Fisher euer meane to affitme that all ignorant Graecians Protestants or of any other sort of Schismatiques Heretiques or Infidels are damned for if on the one side this their ignorance be inuincible so as to excuse them from the actuall sinne of their Schisme Heresy and Infidelity and on the other syde they by Almighty Gods speciall grace be preserued from other actuall mortall sinne and by the same grace be excited extraordinarily to Faith Hope Charity and to true Contrition for all finne they may be saued But this being extraordinary no man ought ordinarily presume or rely on it especially so as to neglect the ordinary meanes knowne to be in the vnity of the Catholique Roman Church After this D. White excepted against another point of M. Fishers paper in which was sayd That the Roman Church had still held vnhanged doctrime of Fayth in all points c. And for instances of change made he obiected Transubstantiation Images Communion vnder one kind Sacrament of pennance c. These points he slieghtly began to touch but did not as the paper required name when and by whome the change was made in these points but sayd It was not needful to shew these circumstances As for example sayth he the Pharisies held errour in saying that the gold of the Altar was more holy then the Altar which was a change in doctrine yet you cannot shew when and by whome this change was made To this M. Fisher answered that although he could not on the suddaine tell when and by whome this Change was made yet he did not doubt but that with study he might find it out And so indeed he might haue named the Author of the Sect of Pharisies who first brought in that error and the time when that Sect began which is inough For we do not presse Protestants to tell the very day or houre in which euery one of our supposed Errors were brought in but to name the first Author of any erroneous doctrine or of any Sect of men who were specially noted for teaching such a peculiar doctrine and about what yeare or Age that Sect of men first began and who they were who then noted them to teach such doctrine contrary so the formerly receaued Fayth of the vniuersall Church as must be and is vsually noted when especially any such notorious matters as those which D. White obiected were by any man or any sect of men taught contrary to the formerly receaued Faith of the vniuersall church Sith therfore the aforesaid circumstances are vlually noted in other such kind of changes and that it is morally impossible that such great changes and so vniuersally spread ouer the world should be made ether in an instant or in succession of time and that not one or other writer would haue made mention of the change and when where and by whome it was made as they do of all other such matters D. White who obiected such great changes of doctrine to haue beene made in the Roman church accusing hereby greuiously her which consessedly was once the true Mother church is obliged and bound not only to proue this his accusation by shewing the forsayd circumstances in good Authors if he will not be accounted an vnnaturall and false calumniator of his true Mother-church but he must also shew another continually visible church which neuer did admit any any such change in doctrine of Faith if he will not impiously deny the truth of the Prophesyes and Promises of Scripture wherby we learne that Hell gates shall not preuaile against the church And that christ himself and his holy spirit will alwaies be with the church teaching it and consequently enabling it to teach vs all truth and making it the pillar and ground of truth and consequently free from all error in matters of Fayth But D. White can neuer proue his accusation by shewing out of good Authors the aforesayd circumstances of the change of the Roman church in doctrine of Fayth nor can shew any other continually visible church which did not admit change in doctrine of Fayth Let him therfore consider whether it be not better to recall his false vnnaturall accusation of his Mother the Roman church being sorry for it with purpose here after humbly to heare belieue obey and follo wher doctrine and direction rather then to incurre not only the foresayd censure of men but also of christ himselfe who sayth He that will not heare the Church let him be to thee as an heathen Publican that is cast out of the fauour of God and all good men both in this present life and also if he do not in time repent in the future eternall life These be the chiefe points which I haue gathered out M. Fishers first Relation which he shewed to D. Whyte with an intēt that he should put him in mind if any thing were not remembred or misremembred But the Doctour at that time did not nor could truly say that any thing was safely
related only he sayd 1. That himselfe did not remember a point or two which both M. Fisher and M. B. did perfectly remember to haue bene so as is here related 2. He sayd that something more was sayd then is related which M. Fisher did not deny but was willing to add any thing that D. Whyte could put him in mind of or that himselfe should after remember and so being put in remembrance made by D. Whyte to wit Whereas M. Fisher vpon some occasion or other had sayd That although a generall Councell might erre in the premisses yet not in the Conclusion D. Whyte obiected saying That in all scieÌ„ces the conclusioÌ„ is no more certayne theÌ„ the Premisses therfore if the premisses in a general councell be fallible the conclusion cannot be infallible To which M. Fisher answered saying Although in sciences which depend only vpon the light of Nature the conclusion cannot be more certaine then the premisses yet in a generall councell assisted by the holy Ghost in the finall conclusion or definitiue sentence the conclusion is alwayes infallible although sometimes the premisses be fallible And M. Fisher had great reason to answere in this manner Indeed if to define a matter of Fayth were to conclude the same by way of discourse out of Principles as the Argument doth suppose then if Councels might erre in the Promisses they might likewise erre in their Conclusion and dâ—finitiue sentence But this supposition is false Infallibility in defining being a diuine Assistance not to inferre one thing out of another by way of connexion and consequence but to decree and declare what is conform 〈…〉 to the word of God by way of authority binding the Church so to believe And this definition is euer infallible though all the arguments the Councell bringes by way of discourse in proofe of the definition eyther before or after the same is made be not still demonstratiue Another obiection M. Fisher hath since that time remembred to wit that D. White alleaged something out of Abulensis in Matt. 7. 19. which M. Fisher differred to make answere vnto vntil he might see the Author himself hauing had experience inough how falsely many Ministers the Authors and how false their Note-Bookes be Now M. Fisher hath seene the booke and findeth the words cited by D. White to contayne two parts one as contrary to D. White as the other seemeth contrary to M. Fisher that the whole discourse of Abulensis in that place sheweth that euen that part which seemeth contrary to M. Fisher doth nothing preudice M. Fishers cause as will appeare to any that will duly ponder all that is there sayd of the Authority of the Church in defining what bookes be and what be not Canonicall For Abulensis expressly declareth that all and only those bookes are to be accounted Canonicall which the church doth define to be canonicall and the reason why he did in his priuate opinion thinke one or two Bookes not to be canonicall which we do now hold for canonicall is for that the Church had not then so cleerely defined them to be Canonicall as it hath done since A 〈…〉 sts wrot that passage as there are diuers other Bookes held for Canonicall euen by Protestants which haue not beene so esteemed by some of the Ancient Fathers in regard the church had not then so clearely defined them to be canonicall as is hath done in after times A third obiection was made by D. White about the worship of Images which D. White would needs affirme to be an Innouation and grossâ— Error of Papists Which M. Fisher denied and sayd that the worship meaning the same worship which is due to the Prototypon is not giuen by vs to the Image it selfe This obiection D. White vrged no further the first day but the next day of meeting he vrged those words of Bellarmine Datur veneratio ipsi imagini M. Fisher anwered that Bellarmine did not meane that the same worship which was due to the Prototypon was giuen to the Image it selfe but an inferior degree of worship and that also for the Prototypons sake Then D. White betooke himselfe to Suares saying That Suares did hold that the same worship which was giuen to the Prototypon was giuen to the Image M. Fisher answering sayd You do not vnderstand our Authors For sayd M. Fisher they that seeme to giue most giue the least to Images for those that say that one and the same worship is giuen to the Image and that which is represented by it hold the Image to be incapable of any part of worship and so the whole to pertayne to the thing Wheras others who distinguish one honour to be due to the thing and another farre inferior to be giuen to the Image giue something as M. Fisher explicated in the example of the respect one beareth to the picture of his friend which although it be not capable of that friendly respect and affection which by looking vpon it he exciteth in himselfe towards his friend represented by it yet is it capable of an inferiour degree of respect as to be set in a more worthy and eminent place c. then it should be if it were the picture of some other who were not ones friend These be the chiefe Passages of this Conference between D. White and M. Fisher so far as hath come to my notice who haue vsed so much diligence in inquiring the truth of this matter as I haue no doubt but for substance I haue not omitted any thing that may much import considering what the occasion and subiect of the Conference was to wit that Paper written by M. Fisher in which he proued the Roman Church and those who agree in Fayth with it to be that Company of whome euery one must learne what is the truth in all points and questions of Fayth necessary to saluation which paper not being substantially confuted as it was not by any thing sayd by D. White or any other at that time or after D. Whyte is yet obliged to make a better answere if he meane to giue satisfaction either to Catholiques or Protestants in this most important point of a perpetually visible church of which all forts must learne true diuine infallible Faith necessary to Saluation FINIS A RELATION OF THE Conference between a certain B. M. Fisher defended against the said B. his Chaplayne The Preface GENTLE Reader I think it needful to let thee vnderstand that whereas the Chaplaine of a certayne B. sayth in the Preface of his Answere to a Relation of what passed betweene the said B. and M. Fisher That the Iesuite spread abroad papers of this Conference which were full of partiality to his cause more full of calumney against the B. the truth is that the Iesuite did not at all so much as in speach much lesse in papers publish this or either of the other two Conferences which he had with D. White vntill he was forced vnto it by false
as superstitious and the doctrine as erroneous in Fayth yea as hereticall and euen Antichristian All this considered the B. hath no cause to be hartily angry either with the Iesuite for relating or with himself for granting Protestants to haue made a rent or diuision from the Rom. church but might with a safe conscience yet further grant as one did was it not He to an Honorable person That it was ill done of those who did first make the sâ—paration Which is most true both in regard there can be no iust cause to make a schisme and diusion from the whole Church for the whole Church cannot vniuersally erre in doctrine of Fayth and other iust cause there is none and also for that those who first made the separation Luther and his Associates gaue the first cause in manner aforesayd to the Rom. church to excommunicate them as by our Sauiours warrant she might when they would not heare the church which did both at first seeke to recall them from their nouelâ— opinions and after their breach did permit yea inuite them publikely with safe conduct to Rome to a Generall Councell and freely to speake what they could for themselues And I make no doubt so farre is the Rom. Church from being cause of continuance of the schismes or hinderance of Re-union that it would yet if any hope may be giuen that Protestantes will sincerely seeke nothing but truth and peace giue them a free hearing with most ampie safe conduct which is more then euer we English catholiques could obtayne although we haue made offers diuers times to come to publique Dispute first in Queene Elizabeth her dayes and also in his Maiesties that now is only requiring the Princes word for our safeâ—y and equality of Conditions of the dispute Vnto which offer our Aduersaries neuer did nor euer will giue good Answere As one saith Honestum responsum nullum dabunt praeter vnum quod numquam dabunt Regina Rex spondet Aduola Camp inrat Acad. red t This question the Iesuite made chiefly against that part of the B. his last speach in which he said There were errours in doctrine for if the B. meant as the Iesuite vnderstood him to meane that there were errours of doctrine of Fayth in the Generall Church neuer did any lawfull competent Iudge so censure neither can it so be No power in Earth or Hell it self can so far preuayle against the Generall Church of Christ built vpon a Rock as to make it or the pastours thereof erre generally in any one point of diuine truth Christs promises stand Matth 16. 28. Luc. 22. Ioan. 14. 16. and will neuer permit this no not in Antichrists dayes Particuler Pastors and Churches may fall into Heresy or Apostasy but the whole Church cannot It may sometyme not expresly teach or know all diuine truthes which afterwards it may learne by study of Scriptures and otherwayes but it neuer did nor can vniuersally by its full authority teach any thing to be diuine truth which is not and much lesse any thing to be a matter of Fayth which is contrary to diuine truth either expressed or inuolued in Scriptures rightly vnderstood So as no reformation of Fayth can be needfull in the Generall Church but only in particuler Churches in which case also when the need is onely questionable particuler Pastours or Churches must not take vpon them to iudge and condemne others of errour in Fayth but as S. Irenaus intimateth must haue recourse to that Church which hath more powerfull Principality the Church of Rome and to her Bishop being Cheife Pastour of the whole Church as being Successour to S. Peter To whom Christ promised the Keyes Math. 16. For whom Christ prayed that his Fayth might not faile Luc. 22. and whom he charged to confirme his brethren and to feed and gouerne the whole flock lambes and sheep loan 21. people and Pastours subiects and superiours which he shall neuer refuse to do in such sort as that this neglect shall be a iust Cause for any particuler man or Church to make a schisime or separation of himself and others from the whole Generall Church vnder pretence of Reformation either of manners or of Fayth Protestants therefore did ill in first deuiding themselues from the Generall Church and do still ill in continuing deuided from it Neither can those Protestants be excused from intolerable pride insolent madnes who presume to be Accusers Witnesses Iudges Executioners of the sentence pronounced by themselues against the Church in Generall and against the principall and Mother Church and the B. of Rome which is and ought to be their Iudge in this case For although it be against equity that Subiects and Children should be accusers witnesses iudges and executioners against their Prince and Mother in any case yet it is not absurd that in some case the Prince or Mother may accuse witnesse iudge and if need be execute Iustice against vniust or rebellious subeuects or euill children u It is true when the Question is about the Generall Fayth of the church the matter may be made most firme if the church in a Generall CouÌ„cell with the full authority of her cheif Pastour and all other Pastours whome all people must obey Rom. 13. Hebr. 13. decree what is to be held for diuine truth by Visum est spiritui sancto nobis Act. 15. and by adding Anathema to such as resist this Truth For if this be not firme and infallible what can be so firme and well founded in the church which vnder pretext of seeming euideÌ„t Scripture or demonstration may not be shaken and called in question by an erring disputer For if all Pastours being gathered togeather in the name of christ praying vnanimiter for the promised Assistance of the Holy Ghost making great and diligent search and examination of the Scriptures and other grounds of Fayth and hearing ech Pastour declare what hath been the ancient Tradition of his church shall in fine conclude and decree in manner aforesaid what is to be held for diuine truth If I say the Councell in this decree may erre and may be controlled by euery particuler or any particuler vnlearned or learned man or church pretending euident text of Scripture or cleere demonstration supple Teste Iudice seipsis what can remaine firme or certaine vpon Earth which may not by a like pretence be coÌ„trolled or at least by one or other called in question A Generall councell therefore being lawfully called continued and confirmed is doubtles a most competent iudge of all controuersies of Fayth But what is to be done when a Generall councell cannot be called as many times it cannot by reason of manifold impedimeÌ„ts or if being called all will not be of one mind As among Protestants and others who admit no Infallible meanes rule or iudge beside Onely Scripture which ech man will interprete as seemeth best to his seuerall priuate Iudgment or spirit it is scarse to
thankes to his Chaplain for setting it downe but will commend the lesuite for relating his speach more truely and at least lesse disgracefully C Heere againe the Chaplain taxeth the Iesuite saying That the B. did not answer thus in particuler But the Iesuite is sure he did and it appeareth to be so by the Iesuits wordes who said to the La. Marke that Vnto which the B. replied saying She may be better saued in it then you which Reply sheweth that the B. had said that she in particuler might be saued in the Roman Fayth Otherwise if his first Answere had ben as the chaplaine would now make the B. should haue said The ignorant may be saued in it but neither you nor she But the Iesuite is sure that this Answere of the B. and Reply of the Iesuite Marke that was iust as he related without any such addition as now the chaplain doth relate and that if such a Caueat were added it was after the end of the conference and not in the Iesuits presence Out of this last passage the Chaplain obserueth that Catholiques take aduantage and make vse of the argument drawne from Protestants granting That one liuing and dying a Rom. Catholique may be saued accounting it secure so to liue and die euen by confession of Aduersaries The force of which argument he endeauoureth to weaken by saying that although Protestants grant it to be possible yet they say withall that it is not secure but hard c. But he must remember that when Protestants graunt that in the Rom. Fayth and Church there is ground sufficient and consequently possibility of saluation this is a free confession of the Aduersaries argument themselues and therefore is of force against them and is to be thought to be extorted from them by the force of truth it self But when Protestants do say that saluation is more securely and easily had in Protestant Fayth Church then in the Romane this onely is their partiall priuate opinion in their owne behalf which is of no weight especially when Romane Catholiques farre more in number and farre more spread in place and of much longer continuance in tyme and for vertue and learning at least equall or rather much exceeding Protestants do confidently and vnanimously and with authority and reason proue that according to the ordinary Course of Gods prouidence Out of the Cath. Romane Church there is no possibility of saluation And therefore who will not thinke it safer to adhere to the Cath. Romane Fayth and Church in which all both Catholiques and best learned Protestants do promise possibility of saluation without doubt then to the Protestant Church sith all Roman Catholiques do threaten damnation to all who obstinately adhere vnto it and dye in it The which threat doth not proceede out of malice or want of Charity but is grounded in Charity as are the like threats of Christ our Sauiour and Holy Fathers who knowing that there is but One True Fayth and One True Church out of which there is no saluation do out of their Charitable care of our soules good so commend to vs the beliefe of that Fayth and the cleauing to that Church as they pronounce He that shall not belieue shall be condemned Mar. 16. and He that will not heare the Church and haue it for his Mother is to be accounted as a Heathen and Publican Matth. 18. and cannot haue God to be his Father accounting it more charity to fore warne vs by these threats of our perill that we may feare and auoide it then to put vs in a false security and so to let vs runne into danger for want of foresight of it Those examples which the Chaplaine giues of the Donatists giuing true Baptisme in the opinion of all and Protestants holding a kind of Reall Presence not denied by any are nothing like our case For in these cases there are annexed other reasons of certainly knowne perill of damnable schisme and heresie which we should incurre by cōsenting to the Donatists deniall of true Baptisme to be among Catholiques and to the Protestants denyall or doubting of the true substantiall presence of Christ in the Eucharist But in our case there is confessedly no such perill of any damnable Heresy schisme or any other sinne in resoluing to liue and die in the Catholique Rom. Church and in case some Protestants should say that there is perill of damnation in liuing and dying Roman Catholiques the authority of them that say there is perill being so few in comparison of those who say there is none and so passionate and partially affected men who are in this their saying contradicted by their owne more learned brethren ought not to be respected more then a Scarre-crowe But the authority of those who allow saluation to such as do liue and die Roman Catholiques being so many so ancient so vertuous so learned and some no way partially affected out opposite to the Romā Church ought to be accoūted of exceeding great weight may worthily perswade any wise man that it is most secure to liue and dye a Roman Catholique and consequently that in so important a matter this most secure course of liuing and dying in the Roman Church ought in all reason to be chosen and that so pretious a Iewell as the Soule is ought not to be left to the hazard of loosing heauen and falling into hell by relying vpon ones ownes opinion or the opinion of those few new Protestant Doctours who acknowledg that their whole congregatiō may erre much more therfore may they thinke that ech member therof may be deceiued in following his owne or any other mans opinion d Heere the Chaplain taxeth the Iesuite for falsly relating D. Whites Answer and saith he hath spoken with D. White who auowes this no other Answere He was asked in the Conference whether Papists errours were fundamentall To this he gaue answere by a distinction of persons which held and professed the errours Namely that the errours were fundamentall reductiuè by a reducent if they who imbraced them did pertinaciously adhere vnto them hauing sufficient meanes to be better informed Nay further that they were materially in the kind and nature of them leauen drosse haye and stubble yet he thought withall that such as were misled by education or long Custome or ouer-valuing the soueraigntie of the Romane Church and did in simplicity of heart imbrace them might by their generall Repentance faith in the merits of Christ attended with Charity and other vertues finde mercy at Gods hands But that he should say signanter expressè that none of yours or your fellowes errours were damnable so long as you hold them not against your Conscience that he vtterly disauowes c. To this the Iesuite answereth first that he did not in this his Relation say that D. White did signanter and expresly say these precise words None of yours or your fellowes errours are damnable Secondly he saith that D. White did