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A68210 A Christian letter of certaine English protestants, vnfained fauourers of the present state of religion, authorised and professed in England: vnto that reverend and learned man, Mr R. Hoo requiring resolution in certaine matters of doctrine (which seeme to ouerthrow the foundation of Christian religion, and of the church among vs) expreslie contained in his fiue books of Ecclesiasticall pollicie. Willet, Andrew, 1562-1621, attributed name.; Cartwright, Thomas, 1535-1603, attributed name. 1599 (1599) STC 13721; ESTC S107562 38,506 52

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telling Abraham his couenant reached to his seede and by differring the seale of the same to witt circumcision to the eight day You Maister Hoo. speake to our vnderstanding a farre differing language namely Predestination bringeth not to life without the grace of externall vocation wherein our baptisme is implyed For as wee are not naturallie men without birth so neither are we christian men in the eie of the church of God but by new birth nor according to the ordinarie course of divine dispensation new borne but by that baptisme which both declareth and maketh vs christians in which respect we holde it to bee the doore of our actuall entrance into Gods house the first apparant beginning of life a seale perhaps to the grace of election before receaved but to our sanctification heere a stepp that hath not any before it And againe The fruit of Baptisme dependeth onely upon the couenant whiche God hath made that God by couenant requireth of the elder sorte fayth and Baptisme in childrē the sacrament of Baptisme alone And in another place We haue for baptisme no day sett as the Iewes had for circumcision neither haue wee by the lawe of God but onely by the churches discretion a place therevnto appointed Baptisme therfore euen in the meaning of the lawe of Christ belongeth vnto infantes capable thereof from the verie instant of their birth which if they haue not howsoeuer rather then loose it by being put of because the time the place or some such like circumstance doth not solemnly enough concurre the church as much as in her lyeth wilfullie casteth away their soules Heere are we at our wittes ende not knowing what to beleeue For if our English confession bee true that baptisme is a signe of regeneration and visibly sealeth our remission of sinnes and adoption and increaseth grace c. we know not what to make of that you say Baptisme to be the first apparant beginning of life a seale perhaps of the grace of election and that there is no stepp of sanctification before Baptisme And againe if it be true as you say Predestination bringeth not life without the grace of externall vocation wherein baptisme is implyed what shall we thinke of that our Reverend Fathers say A man by Gods free election is holy and pure and that before Baptisme a man may stande in the state of salvation And if our churches doctrine be true that baptisme is a seale of remission of sinnes and that the Sacramentes make not the couenantes but are seales of the covenantes howe can yours bee true that by couenant God requireth fayth and baptisme in the elder and baptisme alone in children Is baptisme parte of the couenant and more then a seale And seeing our Reverend Fathers affirme that God and well ordered churches forbidd baptisme by women and that God hath not inthralled his church to such vrgent necessitie and that such doctrine is fearfull iniurious and blasphemous and our sweete and tender Father hath saide I will be thy God and thy childes not adding anie condition of baptisme if it cannot be had as it ought How can it bee well in you to make it a bloodie and wilfull casting away of soules if the church provide not that children haue baptisme howsoeuer And heere we pray you to teach vs whether the couenant and Sacramentes in the Gospell bee not the same in nature virtue and substance that they were vnder the lawe or that our Sacramentes haue more necessitie And if so why our Reverend Fathers disavow the necessitie of Baptisme to be done anie other wise then as it ought because God appointed circumcisiō till the eight day is there a further grace in our sacramēts or haue they not somewhat in the worke wrought whiche the Sacramentes of the law had not We pray you therefore plainelie and distinctlie to shew vs your minde whether righteousnes cōmeth by baptisme or by faith And seeing notwithstanding all these harde and peremptorie speaches you sometimes saye that grace is not absolutelie tyed to sacramentes and the necessitie of receaving not so absolute as that of administring the Sacramentes Wee would faine knowe what you holde and affirme what manner of necessitie you meane For if grace be not absolutelie tyed vnto Sacraments and necessitie of receaving Sacraments not absolute we knowe not what should make necessitie of administring absolute but that as our Reverend Fathers say we are not enthralled to appoint or suffer it to bee done by Women or lay persons if it cannot be had as it ought and if GOD haue not added any such condition of baptisme where borrowed you that distinction Wee can not tell where to finde you or how to take your meaning or at the least that your minde concurreth with the doctrine of the church of Englande we expect therefore and pray you to declare faithfullie these thinges vnto vs. The Church of Englande pronounceth that The Transubstantiation of the bread and wine in the Eucharist can not bee proued by the sacred Scripture but is against playne wordes of Scripture overturneth the nature of the sacrament hath giuē occasion of many superstitions And for this cause our Reverend Fathers call it A monstrous blasphemous doctrine bringing in doubt the trueth of Christs body Contrarie to Christes wordes sayinge It is expedient that I goe awaye Joh. 16. 7. and to that of Peter Whom the heauens must contayne vntill the time that all things bee restored Act. 3. 21. disagreeing from the articles of faith Hee ascended into heauen sitteth at the right hande of God the Father c. making voyde the institution of Christ which is to continue till he come c. casting holy things to prophane as whoremongers murderers c. mise and dogges to receaue the true reall body of Christ. causing most cruell eating of mans fleshe and manie monstrous miracles accidentes without subjectes the body of Christ without his qualities and true manner of a bodye nourishinge the Marcionist to beleeue the phantasticall body of Christ and Eutichians confounding the two natures of Christ and therefore they which affirme transubstantiation are indeed right Sacramentaries and Capernaites In regarde whereof we intreate you Mai. Hoo. to make a fitt construction of your wordes were you say Sith we all agree that by the sacrament Christ doeth reallie and truelie in vs performe his promise why doe we vainely trouble our selues with so fearce contentions whether by consubstantiation or els by transubstātiation the sacrament it selfe be first possessed with Christ or no a thing which no way can eyther further or hinder vs howsouer it stande because our participation of Christ in the Sacrament depēdeth on the cooperatiō of his omnipotent power which maketh it his body and blood vnto vs whether with change or without alteration of the element such as they imagine we neede not greatlie to care nor inquire after In all which words you seeme to
to holy scripture to vse plaine good and sensible termes to note out the difference of a ministers estate from other mens and yours seemeth to carie another kinde of stile more befitting the glorie of the Romish character then the simplicitie of our ministerie Our church saieth they must bee called that preach publicklie you say a Catechist or whom wee finde in aūcient time to haue bene such as Clemens and Origine in Alexandria as to whom the people came to heare the preaching of the word of God is none of the order of the Cleargie meaning as wee think without this ministeriall power We pray you thē to shew vs whether you meane by ministeriall power Cleargie or order that which our church meaneth by calling if you doe then we see not how you and they agree that you allow a Catechist which is an office to preach the worde which is not of the Ecclesiasticall order and as we say hath no calling therevnto and our church saieth that it is not lawfull c. Againe our Church saieth that it is not lawfull to administer the Sacramentes without that calling and that God and well ordered Churches forbidd Women to baptize you as wee thinke contrarie to our church maintaine such churches as allow the private baptisme by Women in case of necessitie and you saye diuers reformed churches allow and defende such baptisme Heere wee intreate you to declare the agreement of these sayings and whether because you say that the speciall order you speake of is consecrated vnto the seruice of the highest in thinges wherewith others may not medle your meaning be that lay people in case of necessitie may medle with those thinges which our church saieth is not lawfull without calling or that because you would haue the ministeriall power to be a marke and character you giue libertie to preaching baptizing as to certaine seruices and that the character and indeleble order hath nothing to it selfe peculiar but the making of the body of Christ in the Sacrament and offering him vp in sacrifice to his Father that the laitie women and catechist may not medle with that And heere wee desire to vnderstande whence you fett that worthie distinction the ignorance whereof beguileth manie and that you would declare the same by holy scripture bring vs one pregnant proofe to shew the errour of our church in affirming preaching and ministring without calling to bee vnlawfull or else declare the exception either by scripture or by some order or interpretation published by our church or some of our Reuerend Fathers which also may haue their harmonie with the sayings of the Reuerend Fathers by vs before rehearsed And lastlie whether that you in these three places are not cōtrarie to your self or that you make not a deluding proposition which contayneth a generall prohibition without limitation which yet is not generall but must haue exception And if you place Readers as distinct from cleargie what may we thinke you esteeme of our reading ministers are they no cleargie men It is an Article of our faith that The Sacramentes instituted of Christ are not onely markes of christian profession but rather certayne testimonies and effectuall signes of grace and of the good will of God towards vs by which hee doeth worke invisiblie in vs and doeth not onelie stirre vp but also confirme our faith towardes him selfe Which by the reverend Fathers of our Church is interpreted thus Sacraments are visible wordes seales of righteousnes and tokens of grace The soule of man not the creature of bread or water receaue the grace of God c. The grace of God is not in the visible signes but in the soule The substance of all Sacramentes is the worde of God which S t Paule calleth verbum reconciliationis the worde of Attonement this worde is the instrument of remissiō of sinne The Sacraments are the seales affixed vnto the same the Priest is the meane And speaking of all the faithfull to bee one bodye all endewed with one spirit they further say This marvelous coniunction and incorporation is first begonne and wrought by faith c. Afterward the same corporation is assured vnto vs and increased in our baptisme c. And for that we are verie vnperfect of our selues and therefore must dailie proceede forwarde that we may grow vnto a perfect man in Christ Therfore hath God appointed that the same incorporation should bee often renewed and confirmed in vs by the vse of the holy misteries wherein must bee considered that the said holie misteries doe not beginne but rather continue confirme this incorporation Heere wee demaunde howe it may appeare vnto vs that you broach not a new doctrine diuers and cōtrarie to our beleefe in Englande When you say that The Sacramentes chiefest force and virtue consisteth in this that they are heauenlie ceremonies which God hath sanctified and ordayned to be administred in his church First as markes to know when God doeth imparte the vitall or sauing grace of Christ vnto all that are capable thereof And secondlie as meanes conditionall which God requireth in them vnto whom he imparteth grace And in another place It is a braunch of beleefe that Sacramentes are in their place no lesse required then beleefe it selfe For when our Lord Saviour promiseth eternall life is it any otherwise then as hee promised restitution of health vnto Naaman the Sirian namely with this condition washe and be cleane And in another place you say that both the Worde and Sacraments haue generatiue force and virtue By which your wordes we are greatlie amazed that our Church hath left out in her creede and the Reverend Fathers haue not taught vs that which is as you say the chiefest force and virtue of the Sacraments Where finde you that God ordained the Sacramentes to tell vs when God giueth grace and that they are meanes conditionall and as necessarie as faith Teach vs we pray you by holy scripture these three chief virtues of the Sacraments The furthest that they say as we gather is to make them seales of assurance by which the spirit worketh invisiblie to strengthen our faith and they seeme to square their faith by holy scripture which propoūdeth Abraham to be an example of the true way of iustifying a paterne to all the children of God namelie that he was first iustified by faith and after receaued the Sacrament as a signe to bee a seale of the righteousnesse of his faith Shew therefore whether we ought not to goe further then our church or holy scripture vnlesse we will leaue out the cheefest virtue of the Sacramentes Moreouer they say the grace of God is not in the visible signes you say they are meanes cōdicionall they say that grace which they cal this marvelous coniunction and incorporation is first begon and wrought by faith and afterwarde is assured and increased by the Sacramentes you say
the sacraments haue the generatiue force and virtue as well as the worde They say that the substance of all Sacramentes is the worde c. and that the Sacraments are the seales affixed to the same which being borowed frō the Apostle out of the former recited place Rom. 4. doeth argue that the necessitie of the sacraments is not comparable to that of faith For by this he proueth Abraham to be iustified by faith without workes because he first was iustified by faith before he receaued the Sacrament and that the Sacrament was but a signe and seale of his faith so that he excludeth the Sacrament as it is a worke and as you call it a morall instrument of salvation from all copertenership with faith in the matter of iustification You make it a meanes condicionall and no lesse required then faith it selfe and of as absolute necessitie as that to Naaman wash and be cleane These things good Mai. Hoo. we can not reconcile and therefore we are sutors vnto you to ayde vs in the same and to make your minde to appeare not to ouerturne the fayth of our church and heerein to tell vs where you finde that the grace of God is tyed to anie time as namelie the time of the Sacramentes or whether the Sacramentes teach vs some other time and whether the cōdition of Sacraments make not for the additament of workes vnto fayth in that which the English church holdeth to bee onelie properlie of faith And lastly whether such speaches be not meerelie popish accursed mixture of humane follie giuing a further grace to the blessed Sacraments then God hath ordayned and heerein explane vnto vs whether a man dying without faith yet receaueth the Sacraments can be saued or that a man hauing faith neuer any sacrament may not be saued or whether anie cā be saued if the condition of salvation be the vpright and perfect performance of all moral dueties which God requireth expreslie in his word The Church of England affirmeth that By the malice of wicked mē which are ouer the administratiō of the Sacraments the effect of the things ordayned by Christ is not taken away or the grace of Gods giftes diminished as touching them which receaue by faith and orderlie the things offered vnto them which for the institution of Christ and his promise are effectuall although they be administred by euill men Wherevpon the Reverend Fathers define a Sacrament to bee A reverend and holy misterie ordayned of God wherein hee by his holy worde and promise doth both stirre vp practise the faith of his people and by the operation of the holy ghost increase his grace in them c. And of the intention of the church they say This is the verie dungeon of incertaintie The heart of mā is vnsearcheable if we stay vppon the intention of a mortall man we may stande in doubt of our own baptisme You seeme to speake otherwise where you say Wee must note that in as much as Sacraments are actions religious and mistical which nature they haue not vnlesse they proceed frō a serious meaning and what euerie mans priuate minde is as we can not know so neither are we bounde to examine therefore alwayes in these cases the knowen intent of the church generally doeth suffice and where the contrarie is not manifest we must presume that he which outwardlie doeth the worke hath inwardlie the purpose of the church of God Heere we desire to be instructed how these two opinions can stande togither The one which sayeth the Sacraments are effectuall through the institution of Christ and his promise the other which tyeth it to the good meaninge of the Priest or of the Church Againe the one saieth the intention of the Church is the verie dungeon of incertaintie to make vs doubt of our Baptisme the other that the Sacraments haue not the nature to be religious and misticall without a serious meaning that is the intent of the church These things we pray you to reconcile and therewithall to shew vs howe the intent of the church can giue them their nature to be actions religious misticall and yet our reverend Fathers say they bee holy misteries ordayned of God Resolue therefore whether the virtue of the sacrament depende vpon the institution and promise of God or vpon the good meaning of the Priest or of the Church or vpon both and whether they cannot haue the nature of religious actions and misticall without the intent of the Priest or of the Church and so whether the church may ordaine a misterie or that the misteries ordained of GOD haue not their nature and forme with the presupposed intent of the Church Whether God in ordayning these misteries were holpē by the serious meaning of the church or did except that they should not bee misteries without the liking and allowing of the church by their good meaning And lastlie whether your assertion be not meere poperie a humane invention and an inducement vnto that which is called fides implicita that it should suffice a man to beleeue as the church beleeueth c. And herewithall shew vs what comforte we can haue in the vse of the Sacramentes if they can not be actions religious and misticall vnlesse they proceede from the intent and purpose of the church beeing as our Reverend Fathers esteeme the verie dungeon of vncertaintie The Church of Englande professeth That Baptisme is a signe of regeneration by whiche as by an instrument they which rightlie receaue baptisme are ingrafted into the Church the promises of remission of sinnes and of our adoption to bee the children of God by the holy spirit are visibly sealed our faith is confirmed and by the force of the calling vpon the name of God grace is increased Which the Reverend Fathers of our church doe expound in this sense The children of the faithful are borne holy and notwithstanding by nature they be the children of anger yet by Gods free election they be pure holy This is Saint Paules vndoubted doctrine which notwithstāding he neuer despised the Sacraments of Christ. And that A man may stande in the state of saluation out of all daunger of damnation before he be baptized And the contrarie to this they call fearfull doctrine injurious to thousands of poore infants blasphemous against the bottomlesse mercie of a sweet and tender Father who hath saide I will be thy God and thy childes not adding anie condition of baptisme if it can not be had as it ought and heerevpon they affirme that Sacraments make not the couenantes but only seale them and that God hath not thus inthralled his grace that there is such necessitie that either women or all sortes of persons should dispense the holy misteries to the ende that no poore creature might be cast away for wante of it nor taught his church in his worde but quite contrarie as we see by