Selected quad for the lemma: faith_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
faith_n	church_n	true_a	visible_a	19,269	5	9.3685	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
B11734	The vnreasonablenesse of the separation Made apparant, by an examination of Mr. Iohnsons pretended reasons, published an. 1608. Wherby hee laboureth to iustifie his schisme from the church assemblies of England.	Bradshaw, William, 1571-1618.; Ames, William, 1576-1633. Manudicition for Mr. Robinson.	1614 (1614)	STC 3532; ESTC S113892	55,662	116

more the vphould the Ministery of iniquitie and intisse vnto their stolne waters and hid bread 4. That our Church assemblies are not true visible Churches of Christ vnseperated from the worlde not joyned together in Communion of the Gospell by voluntary Profession of the faith and submission to the Gouerment of Christ but standing in bondage vnto Antichrist The very rehearsall of which reasons is answer sufficient he being notable to proue any of theis assertions but either by the Assumption it selfe that they are brought to proue or one by another circularly Contrarily I affirme 1. That ther is no ordinary Ministeriall office that Christ hath giuen vnto his Church for the worke of his Ministery but our Ministers either haue or by our lawes ought to haue the same 2. That it is a Ministery as opposite for the substaunce therof to the Ministery of Popish Priests Deacons as light is opposit to darknesse 3. That the Pope left not such Priests and Deacons as ours are nor hath any such in his Kingdome But that our Priests and Deacons haue bene vnder God and the Prince the principall Persons that haue driuen the Pope and his Priests and Deacons out of the Realme That it is devilish for any to say that they are devilish except they can proue it by better reasons That they that haue the best gifts doe not intice any to stolne waters or hidden bread or to vphould any Mistery of iniquitie Except the Gospell of Iesus Christ and the true and onely meanes of salvation bee the Mistery of iniquitie 4. That our Church Assemblies being such as by the lawes of the land they ought to bee are so far forth seperated from the world joyned together in the communion of the Gospell by the voluntary profession of faith c. and freed from Antichrist as is sufficient to make them true visible Churches of Christ notwithstanding that many things may bee wanting to the full and desired perfection of them And I doubt not but wee shall bee far more able at any time by reason out of Gods worde to proue theis points then ever M. Iohnson will bee to proue the contrary And yet it were easie to proue any thing by such a jugling Method of Reasoning as M. Iohnson hath gotten For hee can proue you the 1. Reason by the 2 the 2. by the 1. The 3. by the 1. and 2 the 1. and 2. by the 3. The 4. by the 1.2 3. and every of them by the 4. and all 4. by that question which here they are brought to proue THE FIFT REASON EXAMINED Fr. Iohn NOne may heare or haue any Spirituall communion with those Ministers which Minister the holy things of God and worke vpon the Consciences of men by vertue of a fals Spirituall calling Such are the Ministers of the Church Assemblies of Englande Ergo None may heare or haue any Spirituall communion with them Answere This Argument which here hee brings against our Ministery is the very same with the 2. For by a fals Spirituall calling hee meanes a calling proceeding from the Apostasie of Antichrist The Preposition for brevitie sake hee proues by fiue and thirtie places of Scripture And yet who soeuer shall pleas to take the paines to examine them shall finde that nether severally nor joyntly they proue the same The Assumption wheron the whole weight of the controversie leaneth hee proueth onely by the first Argument wherby hee proued the Assumption of the 2. Reason viz. Because they doe it by vertue of their Ministery receaved of their Prelats from their Spirituall Authority which is vsurped and Antichristian And this is all this witnesse hath to say and all the answer it needeth Onely hee wandreth into certaine objections and queries grounded vpon some supposed defences of some of our Ministers Vnto which I will though I neede not giue a breif answer from point to point Obj. Some say they preach not by vertue of their Ministery taken from the Prelats but by vertue of some other calling and Authority Ans I knowe none hauing receaued ordination from the Prelats that neede deny that they preach partly by vertue of the Ministery which they haue taken from them Noe though they hould the calling of Prelates vnlawfull For what is the Ministery which they haue taken from them for the substance therof But after a triall of their gifts a libertie and leaue graunted vnto them to preach the worde of God and administer the Sacraments in such Congregations as they shall bee called vnto Obj. Why will such seeme to renounce that calling receaued of the Prelats and yet blame vs for doing the like Ans They may acknowledge a further calling then that of the Prelats and yet not therin renounce the calling receaved from the Prelates but rather ratifie the same For the Prelats being learned divines and having approued of their gifts and by words and letters Testimoniall giuen libertie to execute the Ministery of the Gospell they doe not therby thrust them into a Ministery but they leaue them to bee further called or chosen either by the people or those Patrons vnto whose fidelitie the people haue committed this charge And therfore this acknowledging of a further calling maketh nothing to the justification of the proude ignorant schism of this Persons Obj. If they preach by virtue of another calling how then stande they Ministers of that Church wher noe other is alowed and how impose they themselues vpon any of their Parishe Assemblies seing the lawes of the land allow onely the Prelacie Priesthood and Deaconry a foresaide Ans Though this should be graunted which hee in his ignorāt simplicitie doth suppose that some amongst vs hauing bene ordained by the Prelates did exercise our Ministery by virtue of another calling and though the law of the land alow noe other yet especially so long as they are permitted to execute their Ministery by those in Authority though it bee by virtue of another calling they are to bee reputed Ministers of that Church that hath vse of their Ministery Obj. How also herein can they avoide to bee both intruders and hipocrits intruders in taking vpon themselues a publique office in that Church against the publique lawes and constitutions therof hipocrits because they pretend in shew one thing to the Prince and State and yet performe another indeede Ans All theis inferences are vpon a fals supposition yet if there were any such Persons they could noe more therin bee said to bee intruders and hipocrits then they of the Seperation are For though the publique lawes should bee against any other calling yet so long as they take an office by a good calling they cannot bee said to intrude themselues Nether doe any such amongst vs if ther bee any such pretend in shew any more then they doe indeed performe for so far forth as any differ in iudgement from the publique lawes of the State they are ready to professe it being called thervnto and they practis

Ministrie and a purpose to giue themselues over vnto that worke They haue in some good measure for none hath them in perfection all those graces and gifts that Paul to Timothie requires to bee in Bishops and Elders They are so judged and esteemed to bee of other Ministers and well grounded Christians and of those people which submit vnto their Ministrie who accepting of them and their Ministrie as sent of God desiring and yealding themselues to liue vnder them as is fitting for Christians And they resolving to guide and governe them as becometh spirituall leaders and guides Such calling and entraunce as this haue many of our Church-officers more then this in substance and effect is not appointed by Christ Those defects and errors which over and besides many time they yeald vnto in their calling entraunce and administration are not of that nature and qualitie that they make anullitie thereof or make it a fals and Antichristian calling entrance or administration The maintenance they liue by as it is no where in speciall appointed of Christ so is it no where in generall or speciall forbidden In the yealding wher-of vnto the Ministers they fulfill the Testament of Christ in giving of their temporall things for spirituall in giving hire to the Labourers c. and do not therin breake any parts els therof hee having no where forbiden any such manner of maintenance but left it indifferent to giue money or fruits In fruits to giue the twentith the twelfth the tenth the eighth of the increase according ether to their estate or the necessitie of the Ministers wherein the Magistrate hath authority to rule and define who hath in his hand the power of mens temporall estates or the Church if the Magistrate leaue vnto them the free vse of their owne Temporalties Nether is the tenth required to be giuen by the Magistrate or yealded to bee given by the Church to the maintenaince of the Ministers any more ceremoniall or Iudaicall in regard of the number then in regard of the matter Nether did their any Ministery lie so much in the quantity of the thing given as in the very gift and offering it selfe So that by the same reason that you make it vnlawfull for Ministers to be maintained by tithes you make it vnlawfull for them to haue any kinde of maintenaunce from the Church there having bin a Ceremonie in the very matter it self as much as in the quantitie or number For not onely their giving the tithe of their increase but also the very giving of their increase it selfe out of that consideration was ceremoniall The fourth Demande Whether every true visible Church of Christ bee not a companie of people called and seperated out from the worlde and the fals worship and waies therof by the word of God and joined together in the fellowship of the Gospell by voluntarie profession of the faith and obedience of Christ I answer 1. That every true visible Church of Christ is such a people 2. That yet not withstanding they bee such they may in their infirmitie and ignorance walke in some of the waies and practice some parts of the fals worship of the world not withstanding their said seperation conjunction and profession 3. They may in time become the true visible Churches of Christ which at the first were not in the said manner and forme called seperated and joined together but forced and constrained against their will by the sword of the Magistrate 4. Many of those Churches in our kingdome from which you seperate as they now stand are such a companie of people so called seperated and joined together though in all three there may bee some kinde of defects and wants The fift Demande Whether the Sacraments being the seales of righteousnes which is by faith may be administred vnto any other but to the faithfull and their feed or in any other Ministrie or māner then is appointed by Iesus Christ the Apostle and high Priest of our profession And whether they be no otherwise administred in our Cathedrall Parishionall Churches in England 1. I graunt that the Sacraments ought to bee administred onely to the faithfull in outward profession and their seed and in no other Ministrie or manner then is appointed by Christ 2. In many of our Churches at the least they are administred in no other manner from and by no other Ministry then Christ hath appointed nor to no other persons 3. Every error and defect in some part of the matter and forme and ministrie a rising of ignorance or infirmity maketh not the Churches fals Churches except you hould That no true perticuler Church can erre which is a more grosse opinion then that of the Papists The sixt Demande Whether the booke of Common Praier with the feasts fasts holy daies stinted Praiers liturgie prescribed therin vsed in theis Assemblies be the true worship of God commaunded in his word or the deuise invention of man for Gods worship service 1. Though it should bee graunted that the booke of Common praier in all the parts and percels therof is not the true worship of God but containeth in it some devises and inventions of man yet the true worship of God not withstanding is prescribed in it 2. So much of it as is vsed in many of our Churches is the true worship of God and in effect commanded in his word 3. Those devises and inventions of men with the feasts fasts holy daies therin prescribed though they should be graunted to be sinnes and corruptions in our Churches such as ought not to be conformed vnto such as we ought rather to seperate frō our Churches then ether by subscription conformity or any other meanes to approue yet are they not of that nature that the simple vse of any or all of them doth destroy the very being of those Churches which vse them making them fals Churches and such as wee may haue no spirituall communion withall no not in the best things The seaventh Demande Whether all people and Churches without exception be not bound in Religion onely to receive and submit vnto that Ministry worship and order which Christ as Lord and King hath given and appointed to his Church Or whether any may receiue joine vnto another devised by man for the service of God And consequently whether they that joine to the present ecclesiasticall Ministery worship and order of the Cathedrall and Parishionall Assemblies can bee assured by the word of God that they joine to the former ordained by Christ and not to the latter devised by man even the man of sinne for the worship and service of God 1. I graunt that wee are bound in Religion to do that which is specified in the first part of your question 2. To joine with our eccleasiiasticall Ministrie worship and orders at least in those Assemblies whether Cathedrall or other when and where all things are not performed according to the rigour of our lawes is not to joine with a Ministrie and worship devised by that man of sinne but though not in all the specialties and formalities therof with such a Ministrie and worship as is required and instituted of God 3. They which joine to the present ecclesiasticall Ministrie worship and order of the Cathedral or Parishionall Assemblies in those things which are performed therein according to the true intent and meaning of our lawes though some things bee done not warrantable by the word yet they may bee assured by the word of God that they joine to the substance of that Ministrie worship and order which Christ as Lord King hath given and appointed to his Church At least they may bee as well assured therof by Gods word as any that joine with the present ecclesiasticall Ministery worship and order of the Assemblies of those of the Seperation can bee assured by the same word that they joine to that forme which is ordained by Christ

THE VNREASONABLENESSE of the separation Made apparant by an examination of Mr. Iohnsons pretended reasons published an 1608. Wherby hee laboureth to iustifie his schisme from the Church Assemblies of England 1. Tim 1.5.6.7 The end of the commandement is charitie out of a pure heart and of a good conscience and of fayth vnfayned From which some hauing swa●●ed haue turned a side vnto vaine Jangling desiring to bee teachers of the Law vnderstanding neither what they say nor wherof they affirme AT DORT Printed by George Waters 1614. TO THE WELL meaning Reader THink not euill if thou meanest well wee intend not to insult over him that is downe or to pursue a man that is flying of himselfe but to lend him a hand that knoweth not well which way to take Mr. Iohnson in deed is rather to bee pitied then much opposed wee need but stand still as lookers on hee falleth willingly on his owne sword but that his fall may bee a rising againe not onely to himself but to others also both armour-bearers followers of his it was iudged necessarie to guide them a litle while their heads are dizzy bring them fairly from of the bogge they haue stood on It is not Mr. Johnson that is dealt with alone for change the name onely and put in Mr. Ainsworth or any such themselues will not say but the reasons are theirs and the answer to them as well as to him Jt may bee that they hauing lesse acquaintance with logicall formes of dispute will looke for large discourse or heaped quotations out of scripture But reason will tell them that many words doe rather hide them vntie the knot of a syllogisme and much quoting may proue some-thing but answereth not directly to any thing Now the wrighters meaning was not to gather proofes but to poynt at the weaknesse of such as these men haue gathered Read therfore with vnderstanding and learn a mean betwixt All and Nothing THE MAINE CONclusion of Mr. Johnsons Reasons as it is propounded by himself is this That it is not lawfull to heare or haue any spiritual communion wit the present Ministery of the Church Assemblies of Englande WHich hee laboureth to proue 1. By Reasons as hee fancieth drawne from Scripture and other Testimonies 2. By Argumentes collected from the writeinges of them whom hee stileth in disdaine forward Preachers And this hee performeth as far as the remainders of his logick skill will giue him leaue in moode and figure But the figure for the moste part is of his owne shapeing such as neuer came forth of any logick Schooles yet feing the truth hee opposeth receaueth noe disadvantage therby I can for my owne parte be content that his Syllogismes stil retaine those formes and figures that hee hath put vpon them and spare the labour of Translating them into nue And so without any further expence of wordes I come to the Examination of the first sort of Reasons THE FIRST SORTE OF Reasons from the Scriptures and other Testimonies Examined The first Reason Examined All are bound in the worship of God to heare and communicate onely with that ministery which Christ hath giuen and set in his Church for that worke But the present Ministery of the Church Assemblies of England is not that which Christ hath giuen and set in his Church for the worke of his Ministery Therfore it is not lawfull for any in the worship of God to heare or communicate with the present Ministery of the Church Assemblies of England Answere Not to contend about the Proposition I deny the Assumption and affirme That the present Ministery of our Church Assemblies how soever it may in some particuler parts of the execution happely be defectiue in some places is for the substance thereof that very same Ministery which Christ hath set in his Church for the worke of his ministery whether it bee the ministery of those which hee calleth the forward Preachers or of those which being qualified according to the true intēt of the lawe do subscribe and conforme according to the laws of the State Fr. Ihon. The Ministery which Christ hath giuen and set in his Church is of Apostles Prophets Euangelists Pastors and Teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11.12 But the present Ministery of the Church of England is none of these spoken of Eph. 4.11.12 Therefore it is not the Ministery which Christ hath giuen and set in his Church Answere The present Ministery of the Church of England 1. of the Church Assemblies of England is the Ministery of Pastors and Teachers Fr. Iohn The present Ministery of the Church of England is of Prelates Priestes and Deacons But nether Prelates Priestes nor Deacons of that Church are Pastors or Teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11.12 Therefore it is none of those spoken of Eph. 4.11.12 Answere I denye both Preposition and Assumption For 1. Though our Preletes doe sometimes voluntarily and occasionnally performe the same worke and seruice in some of our Church Assemblies which our ordinary Ministers doe yet their Prelaticall or Episcopall office or Ministery is not the proper Ministery of any of our Church Assemblies But in the intent of our lawes their propre Ministery consists in overseeing the Ministers and Ministery of our Church Assemblies 2. Though sometimes our Ministers be called PRIESTS and DEACONS yet the MINISTERY vnder those names assigned vnto them and which they exercise is not the proper and essentiall Ministery of either Priestes or Deacons but of Pastors and Teachers Soe that they are onely in aequivocation and name or Metaphorically Priestes and Deacons But really Pastors and Teachers and therfore such Priests and Deacons may bee and indeede and truth are such Pastors and Teachers as are spoken of Eph. 4.11.12 Fr. Iohn The Preposition is manifest 1. The Law of that Church admitteth not any other Ministery but that of their Prelacie Priesthoode and Deaconry receaued amongst them selues or from the Papistes 2. Their Constitution is such as all the Ministers of that Church must bee Priests or Deacons and theise also either in a Superior degree as the Prelates Arch. Bishops Suffraganes c. or in an inferior as Parsons Vicars Stipendaries Chaplins Answere 1. It is not necessary that the Ministery of a contrey or nation should be alwaies such as the law establisheth or admitteth The Ministery at least in some places may be good though the law in generall should admit and establishe such a one as is bad as on the contrarye side the ministery may at some times and in some cases be bad though the laws admit establish neuer soe good for the Gouernors of Churches and common wealths who haue the dispensation of lawes may in their Christian wisedome and moderation permitt a ministery in sundrie respects different from that which the laws require yea and our owne Gouernors in fact haue permitted the ministery of some who neuer receiued ordination either from Papists or themselues And hee cannot be ignorant but that some by connivencie are yet suffred