its proper place where I shall have occasion to vindicate the truth of those Churches which you deny to be true The summe of your Answer is st fir by way of Concession that all the Churches mentioned by me which are all the known Churches Reply Dr. B. in the world own and acknowledge our Parochial Assemblies to be true Churches this savours of Ingenuity 2. By way of Exception against the validity of the Testimony of these Churches because they are the same for Matter and Formwith ours according to the Proverb ask my Brother if I be a Thief this seems to savour of Arrogancy The Testimony of two or three men was wont to be taken for truth by Warrant both of Law and Gospel John 8. 17. Mat. 18. 16. 2 Cor. 13. 1. Heb. 10. 28. Now put the Case you were accused of these or two known Enemies by one were able to bring the Testimony of two hundred honest men to assert your Integrity I presume you would not take it well that their witness should be slighted upon no other ground but this because they consisted of the same Matter and Form with you It is just our Case a very inconsiderable number for so are all the Anti-paedo-Baptistical societies Comparatively and our profest Adversaries draw up a Charge against us that we are false Churches we being for Justification of our truth more then a million of men approved unto God and all good men in whose Approbation we do yea and will rejoyce because we beleeve and are sure that they are the true Churches of Christ and the Judgement of such you deny not to be the judgement of God himself but all Churches besides those of your way which are but of yesterday you plainly though implicitly in the Close of your Answer deny to be true Churches whereby you proclaime M. Mar shal unity of Saints your selves to be the greatest Schismaticks in the world if the Scripture reason that a burning and shining Light in our Church hath given be of any weight which I refer to your serious Consideration as also the weight of this inartificial Argument to the judgement of the people Our Parish Assemblies have a true Church Constitution therfore Argu. 2. they are true Churches The Consequence is granted by you all for this is the Main if not only Reason why you deny the Truth of our Churches because they want a right Constitution The Antecedent I thus prove Those societies that have the true Matter and Form of Gospel Churches have a right Constitution Matter and Form being the only constitutive Principles and making up the Essence of every Body both natural and Political But our Parish Assemblies have the true Matter and Form of Gospel Churches therefore they have a true Church Constitution The Minor I make good from your own definition of a visible Church viz. A company of visible Saints combined or conjoyn'd in special bond consent or Covenant to partake of all Gods Ordinances and to perform all duties which they owe to God and each to other I argue thus those Societies that consist of visible Saints so combin'd are true Churches ours are such therefore The Major is your own the Minor is thus proved in both branches our Parish Assemblies are Societies of visible Saints Those societies where some are Real Saints the worser sort Brethren in a Gospel Account and the worst Professors of the true Faith they are Societies of visible Saints But such are our Assemblies therefore The Minor you cannot deny there are with us many that are men of understanding and not only blameless but pious also in their Conversations The Apostle commands us to account men ignorant and wicked if they be not wilfully and obstinately so Bretheren 2 Thes 3. 14 15. and you grant that the worst among us profess in word the true Faith viz. That Jesus Christ is the Son of God that we are justified by faith alone c. The Major is thus proved The Apostolical Church Societies were Societies of visible Saints but they had in them some reall Saints the worser sort Brethren the worst visible Professors therefore Societies that consist of such are true visible Churches That Christ owns for his Church such a Society where all profess the Faith though the greater part be wicked if there be a few names that are Reall Saints is evident by the example of the Church of Sardis Revel 3. 1. 4. the like may be said of the Church of Corinth c. We have therefore true Church Matter 2. They have a right Form for they are conjoin'd in a Church Covenant this is manifest by their constant meeting every Lords Day to worship God together which is an implicit Covenant our Adversaries being Judges That which was to be proved was that the Parishes of this Nation Answ J. O. in their first Constitution consisted of visible Saints and all that you have here said is void the mark for notwithstanding any thing that you have said the greatest part of the men in the Parishes of this Nation in their first constitution might consist of visible wicked men and so all that you have said is to no purpose for if ever you say any thing to purpose you must first prove that which you have undertaken viz. That you consisted at the first constitution of visible Saints and of this you have not spoken one word you rake back into the degenerated Estate and Condition of Churches striving to equalize and shroud your selves under the sins of others which are degenerated from what they were at first which is nothing to the purpose for I utterly deny that ever any of those Churches in their first forming did consist of such disobedient Persons as the Apostle speaks of 2 Thes 3. 14. For such with whom the Godly in that Church were forbidden to keep company with were sure unfit to be joyned with them as one Body if they appeared such at first and the like may be said of the Church of Sardis Corinth c. Now because these Churches were called Saints and that they had such among them as bad as any in yours you would infer that you may be called so too I grant that these were called Saints but it was not as they were disobedient Persons these never received the name of Saints as they were disobedient but as they being once visibly holy and Saint-like and not so farre degenerated but in a capacity of Recovering their former Estate they bore among others the name of such Now except you first prove that you in your first constitution were Saints visible which in the least measure you have not done there can be no Argument drawn from the Name of them to you I desire if you can to produce one Scripture where in the constitution of an Apostolical Church there was any such distinction made of best and worst and worst of all as you make though there might be a difference in the measures
positively affirm they did consist for the most part of visible wicked men abhominable disobedient and to every good work reprobate for which you give no proof but your own conjecture yet thereupon pass sentence upon all my discourse that it is not at all to the purpose but I presume every unprejudiced man will judge you have clearly lost your cause if it can be made good that the member of our Parishes are such as the Apostolical Churches were even in their state of degeneration which you so much harp upon you deny not but they were true Churchrs and their Members called Saints notwithstanding therefore if our Members appear to be as good Saints as they were their matter then is undoubtedly right let them come into comparison there were amongst them very many in some of these Churches by far the greater number Schismatical Heretical Carnal Proud Lovers of Preheminence Supercilious Censurers Contentious Abusers of Christian Liberty Prophaners of the Lords Supper Gluttons Drunkards Pelly-Gods disorderly Walkers Idle Busie-bodies such as had not repented of the Vncleanness and Fornication and Lasciviousness which they had committed Enemies to the Cross of Christ Minders of earthly things Contemners of the holy Apostle their spiritual Father having a Form of Godliness but denying the power of it profâ—ssing to know God but in their works denying him Abominable Luke warm c. you cannot I suppose find worse then these in our Assemblies What they were at their first forming it makes no matter to me at present yet some being really Saints such as you describe the whole Churches are acknowledged Societies of Saints the denomination being taken not from the greater but better part so a Field where good Corn hath been sowne and some grows is called a Corn field a Wheat heap though most Chaff Gold Oare though more Dross than Gold You say there may be some in Gods favor in our Congregations but if an Holy Humble Wise Exact Gracious conversation argue men to be in the favor of God an impartial Eye may easily discern more such in a few of our Assemblies than in most of the Seperate Societies Yea if you be ingenious you will acknowleage that the Holiness which mâ—st of all your Members have saving in two or three new Opinions they learnt it in and had it from our Parechial Congregations a little Practical holiness serves the turn of too many when they have forsaken us and joyned with you you spend but might as well have spared a multitude of words in declaiming against our peoples profession of the true Faith without works the stress of the Argument is not laid upon verbal profession though let me tell you if it were it might sink your Cause for as true Faith gives being to the invisible Church so does prefession of the true Faith and not Moral Obedience give being to the visible Do you no read of many who upon their verbal Prosession were Baptized by the Apostles themselves and incorporated into the Church Did not Obedience of Faith make the Gentiles Churches Rom. 1. 5. 8. And if Obedience to the Commandements be so necessary to the life and first being of a true Gospel Church that question would be resolved What difference there is between the Covenant of Grace and of Works That which I affirm stands firm upon a sure foundation that where a whole Society professeth all fundamental Truths though the greater part be naught yet if soms of them be Saints indeed Christ owns it for his Church for their sake the Church of Sardis had a name to live i. e. consisted of verbal Professors but it was dead The generality were void of Grace and wicked Members yet for the sakes of a few names that had not defiled their Garments Christ owns it for his Church You say God had some such thing in Babilon If you will say Babilon profosseth the true Faith I will say and prove it a true Church for the sakes of Gods People in it the reason of whose Evocation may easily appear to be their devilish Doctrins pertinaciously held for which their damnation was at the door But you frequently urge the wicked ones in Sardis and other Gospel-Churches were visible Saints at first and yet you bring no proof at all besides your own presumption that they brought more than a verbal profession to make them so or if you could evince they did no prejudice would come thereby to my Argument which proceeds not upon that which you call first constitution that our 8432. Parishes as you number them were at their first constitution for the most part abominable c. is also void of proof I might moreover add that our members may bee called visible Saints because they bear the badge of holy Baptisme and so are sacramentally holy every one of them as Jeâ—usalem when it was worser than Sodom was called the holy Ciâ—â—â— buâ— I forbear to press this because you hold our baptisme a nullâ—â—ie I may happily ere long prove yours to bee so besides the sanctâ—â—y of that doctrine which wee profess may give us the name of Sâ—ints comparatively or in respect of Heathens in opposition to whom the Apostle calls thoâ—e to whom he writes Saints I perceive the name of Paâ—ish is extream distasteful to you and all of your way which yet is nothing else in signification but the confining of Churches within convenient local limits were is not that I finde sundry learned godly men whose treatises are or may be in your hands abundantly vindicating both the name and thing among others Mr. Hollingworth in his rejoynder to Mr. Eaton and Mr. Taylers Reply chap 2. shewing how Parishes are jure divino and how not and Mr. Cawdin in his Review of Mr. Hookers survey who gives six satisâ—actory Answers to that first Negative Conclusion viz. That Parish precincts do not give a man Right or make him more fit for a visible Congregation Chap. 2. p. 87. c. I should spend some pains and time to stop your mouth from quarrelling with the term and make it appear that there is no reason why the number of these bounds by whomsoever measured should offend any to their writings I refer you and follow you from the matter to the form of a visible Church viz. Combination or Conjunction in Covenant which is in our Assemblies and is manifested by their constant meeting every Lords day c. You say you denied a Covenant to be the form of a Church which I remember not I am sure some of the seven that took your part in the dispuâ—ation who were Anti-pedo baptists and were lookt upon by many hearers as Herods taking part with Pilate against Christ did expresly own it and the Argument proceeded with your Approbation and you now shew your gratefulness to them by a tender touch of their name and justifie their mutual Covenanting and consederating in the fellowship of the Faith as that which gives being and constitution to a
Psal 63. 1 2. You deny my Minor with the same limitation as you granted the Major God dwels not you say in the Parishes of this Nation as a Church I will to gratify and if it be possible to convince you make good that Christ dwels in the Parishes of this Nation as a Church by those three Reasons evidencing his presence amongst us For the fortifying whereof I was sparing in bringing Scripture-proof or farther reason not because I had not store of both but because I judged it needless to light a Candle to the Sun but seeing you tax me for bare Asserting you shall see me strongly Confirming each of the Reasons taking in your own restriction First I prove the Faithfull Constant Preaching of the Word to be a note of Christs presence with a people as a Church Deus 4. 7 8. So nigh unto them this speciall neerness of God is proved because they had the Law set before them i. e. fixed among them Psal 147. 19 20. By Word he means his will revealed in the Scriptures given to his Church as a most precious and peculiar treasure Zech. 8. 23. The reason why the Gentiles should joyn themselves to the Jews is because the Word was with them we have heard by your Preaching this was the great and glorious prerogative of the Jews which afterward they lost and as soon as they lost it ceased to be a Church Acts 13. 46. the Apostle witnesseth this to be the greatest privilege the Jews had Rom. 3. 1 2. If this be a peculiar privilege to the Church of God to have a standing fixed preaching of the Word among them and if no People in the world can be named that had this ordinance of preaching which were not Gods Church then this is a sure sign Secondly it appears that his working saving Grace by this Ordinance is as a sure sign 1 Cor. 14. 24 25. he will report that God is in you as a Church of a truth John 4. 22. Christ proves the Jewes to be a true Church Because Salvation might be had there out of the Church there is no salvation ordinarily If you can shew that Christ is present to Convert c. in any Societie where his word is faithfully and constantly Preached that is not his Church this Reason shall stand for invalid Thirdly the meeting mentioned Matth. 18. you deny not to be a Church-meeting therefore where a Societie meet to worship God by Prayer as you expound it or for the Administration of Church Censures as the place carries it there Christ is present as his Church Now that the Word is faithfully and constantly Preached in our Assemblyes and that Christ Converts c. by our Preaching and that our People meet together to pray in his Name is manifest to all the world that we have idle ignorant Ministers in many Congregations and a great multitude that want the power of Godliness among us c. is acknowledged but it s well known as bad of both sorts were in the Church of the Jewes and in the Apostolicall Churches which notwithstanding remained true Churches while he continued his presence and they met and joyned in his true worship till God gave them a bill of divorce and withdrew his presence and they cast off Gods true worship through obstinacie Those Assemblies that are built upon the Foundation of the Arg. 5. Prophets and Apostles are true Churches Ephes 2. 19 20. But ours are so built for they have the whole Doctrine of the Old Dr. B. and New Testament for the infallible and immoveable ground of their Faith whereby they subsist in Church-Communion I deny you Minor What you mean by these words they have Answ J. O. the whole Doctrine c. is doubtfull if by having of it you mean Christ hath left this Old and New Testament in the world for the immoveable ground of mens Faith that 's true but nothing to the purpose for if so it 's left to all men and many men may also beleeve it to be so and yet be so far from being built upon it as they walk and build directly from it If you mean that they have it in the practise of it so as they practically build upon it that 's false for such Persons are built upon it as the Apostle holds out in that Chapter such who were dead but now alive saved by Grace such who were made to sit in heavenly places in Christ Now the greater part of the men in your Parishes are such as were never spiritually alive lying in their sins still unquickned therefore they are not built upon that Foundation practically When I say our Assemblies are built upon Propheticall and Apostolicall Reply Doctrine I mean there is no other Doctrine taught or own'd with us but what hath warrant from the Old and New Testament Dr. B. if there be shew it now that hence it followes we are therefore Gods true Church is apparent from the Apostles Scope proving the Ephesians to be the Houshold of God because they were so built for that by building is meant Owning and Confessing the truth I prove from that of our Saviour Mat. 16. 18. nor can you shew any Society Confessing the whole truth of God that was not a true Church The want of Practise which you allege in the greatest part of our Members weakens not at all the force of the Argument for the very same is taxed by our Saviour in the Church of Sardis Rev. 3. 1. Thou hast a name to live and art dead the generalitie of the members of that Church were voyd oâ— Grace and ungodly men and yet Christ owns it for his Church in the beginning of that verse and how far the Church of Corinth and other Gospell Churches were from being built practically in your sense you have heard sufficiently and yet blessed be God we have in our Parochiall Churches a competent number of practicall Christians that walk exactly according to the rule of the Gospell for whose sakes if you had the Spirit of Christ you would I suppose acknowlege our whole Societies to be his visible Churches That Church that is the pillar and ground of truth is the true Arg. 6. Church 1 Tim. 3. 15. but so is the Church of England in respect of the profession and maintenance of true Religion which it both Dr. B. supporteth as a Pillar and maketh it openly known to others defending it against all Errors Contradictions and Corruptions whatsoever Revel 2. 13. You subtilly alter the termes of the question that the folly of your Argument may not appear instead of these words the Parishes of this Nation you say the Church of England which you ought not to have done the Argument from these words if it include the Question must proceed thus That Church which is the Pillar and ground of Truth is a true Church but so are the Parishes of this Nation in their maintaining and professing true Religion supporting
his own c. But your fellowship is directly contrary one sortfed with all delicious fare cloathed with gorgeous Apparell and pride abominable and the other sort one company working and toyling more than they be well able and glad if they may be set on work and all to get a few cloathes and food and yet cannot get enough to satisfie they being tormented by the oppression of the rich that as the Lord saith their faces are ground and their burdens are almost insupportable the other sort begging from door to door which is miserable to see in that Nation where many vainely spend so much in one hour as would relieve many a poor creature ready to perish with cold and famisht with hunger all which is evident by lamentable experience and yet you have the boldness to compare your Parishes with those in Acts 2. betwixt which there is as much difference as betwixt light and darkness Those that continue not in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship c. are no true Churches but the Parishes of this Nation continue â—ot c. Ergo they are not true Churches the Major is your own by the rule of contraries the Minor is Evident by that which hath been said You render us a reason of your separation from us which whether it will hold when God shall ask you Who hath required this Reply Dr. B. at your hands you have just reason to question groundless separation and Church-division being as great a sin as Adultery or Theft Our Blessed Saviour and his Disciples separated not from Assemblies whose teachers and members were worse than ours read Matth. 23. nor can you find any command or example in all the Scripture for separating from Societies that hold all fundamental Truths and join together in Gods true worship as ours do The doctrine and practice of the Apostles in Baptizing Jews or Heathens brought within the Pale of the Church professing their Faith and Repentance and desiring to be sealed with this Sacrament for the strengthening of their Souls in this Faith as these here did is the doctrine of our Churches our doctrine and practice of Baptizing Infants of Believers is so far from being directly Contrary to the doctrine of the Apostles there being neither here nor any where els any word of theirs forbidding to baptize Infants as that there is very cleer warrant in this very place to Baptize such Infants For the Apostle makes it his Argument to them to be willing to receive Baptism because the promise is made to them and their Children and to as many as the Lord our God shall call and to their Children this must needs be understood or els the promise to Believing Gentiles is not of the same Latitude as it is to Believing Jews I presume you will acknowledge that the Covenant of Grace is as fair and full to these Now if the Promise be made to Believers and their Children the Command must reach not only to them but to their Children also running thus be Baptized you and your Children for the promise is made to you and your Children if otherwise this that wâ—s intended to be an effectual motive would have been an effectual disswasive and deterred Parents from accepting Baptism and renouncing Circumcision to which initial sign their Infant-Children till now had right having privilege of Church Membership as well as Parents which by this acceptance they must lose and be cast into a condition like that of Infidels Which losse to the Church by Christs coming seemes to be no less than of denial of his coming in the flesh Moreover the Apostles practice in Baptizing whole families a part whereof and the greatest part for the most part Children are immediatly upon the parents believing is a warrantable pattern for the practice of our Churches Your objection that there is no express mention of Infants Baptized in those families notwithstanding your selves will take liberty to believe that many were Baptized of whose Baptism there is no mention made in Scripture the twelve Apostles for instance nor is it said there were wives or servants in those families You do not well to call all Infants unhued and unsquared Timber have you never read what the Scripture saith of Infant-Children born within the bosome of the Church Esay 65. 20. The Child shall by an hundred years old that is he shall be as well instructed by Gods inward teaching according to that promise Esae 53. 14. As if he had lived under the Churches teaching an hundred years And if some Children be timber hued and squared for the Kingdom of Glory Mark 10 14 why should it be thought a thing incredible with you that they be squareable for the Kingdom of Grace Moreover that place in 1 Cor. 10. 1 2. If duely considered more than probably proves that it was an Apostolical practice to Baptize Infants born within the Church if not it will be difficult to make the Apostles Comparison of the two Churches and their Sacraments and subjects thereof to run parallell Your pleading for Anabaptistical Community I think not worth replying to as neither your declaming against the hardheartedness of some of our rich members you will find as bad or worse among the members of the Churches Apostolical read 1 Cor. 11. 21 22. and Jam. 2. and 5. We are not therefore overbold to compare our doctrine and fellowship with the Primitive degrees of Purity in doctrine and practice we easily yield them above us But the same Truth we hold fast and will not let it go we teach no other doctrine have fellowship in no other worship Ergo we are true Churches Those Christian Societies that have the true Ministry of Christ Arg. 8. Dr. B. set over them for their Pastors and Spiritual Rulers are true Churches Ephes 4. 11 12. But so have the Parishes of England Ergo. That the Ministers of England are true Ministers appeares by their ordination which was by laying on of the hands of the Presbytery Secondly by their abilities both 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2 Tim. 2. 15. Galat. 2. 14. Thirdly by Gods blessing on their endeavours and labours 2 Cor. 3. 1. I deny the Minor in the proof whereof you forget your self you should Answ I. O. say thus that the Parishes of this Nation have a true Ministry of Christ set over them and then the question is Who set them you say it appeares first by their Ordination c. I answer your Ordination is false and that upon a double account and seeing you either will not or cannot prove it true but onely barely affirm without proof I will give you the grounds of my deniall First the Presbytery by which you were ordained which is the Bishops now it is undeniable they had their Ordination from the Pope and I am sure he had his from the Devill Now the Devill ordaining the Pope the Pope the Bishops the Bishops you how can you be true Ministers by
before his Incarnation you will find that our Congregations walk in the steps of Abraham of his Faith as in other things so particularly in this which I look you will storm at that they bring their Infant-Children to the sign of initiation appointed for the Church in the administration under which they live of the Faith of Moses and all the Prophets following their doctrine and pious practice too If you say most of our People deny the power of Religion I answer more of the Church of Israel did so 2. Look upon the Flock after Christ and you will find ours follow their steps both for doctrine and discipline the former none denyes and the substantials of the later we had even in the Bishops reign as Learned and Godly Mr. Hilderson hath made good against the Brownists and for that which is styled the Presbyteriâ—n Government if you read without prejudice the Jus divinum Regiminis Ecclesiastici you will find proof sufficient that That layes truest Claim to divine right and they that embrace and follow it walk in the steps of Christs Antient Apostolical flock Your common Allegation against this viz. That our Members are not Baptized Believers and therefore we walk not in the steps of the Antient Flock is notoriously false For first that our Members are Believers and many of them Real ones you will not deny Secondly and that they were all Baptized in their Infancy you will acknowledge at least they had water applyed to them in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost which is the right form of Baptism All that you do or can object is that they were not a fit subject of Baptism but our Saviours Words in his Commission according to your own interpretation of them confute you for Infants are a part of a discipled Nation yea they are Disciples Acts 15. 10. holy 1 Cor. 7. 14. and Church-members as learned Mr. Baxter hath proved by 27. Arguments and by denying Infants of Believers to be a fit subject of Baptism you deny as was lately shewed that Christ is come in the Flesh For if he be come certainly the Church is no loser but a gainer by his coming but by denying to Believers Infants this privilege the Church is a loser by his coming The tenth Argument shall be ad hominem and an additional to a branch of the second If your societies be true Churches then so are ours but the former is true Ergo the latter The consequence is only to be made good If all that 's good in your Churches you had it from ours both persons and things then the Consequence is certain Because nihil dat quod non babet but all that 's good in yours c. Two thing make persons good First Profession of the true Faith Secondly Correspondent piety the former of these you have all along yielded the latter likewise you have granted our best members have but the best of them you must acknowledge you have gained from us for as much as immediatly upon their departing us you Baptize them which argues they are fit matter for your Church 1. The Consequence of the first and also second Syllogism framed Answ J. O. to prove the fiâ—st is false For we might constitute our Churches of such matter as we gained from you and yet ours true and yours false because ours was constituted of such matter as appeared all good and yours was constituted of such as was for the greatest part bad For though it be most true that nothing gives that it hath not yet it is also as true that something may be gained from another that the loser retains not An Army of Souldiers may consist of honest men and wicked and the honest may be gained from the wicked and now upon your Consequence the wicked may prove themselves as good as the honest thus if all that 's good in you you had from us then if you be honest we are honest But all that 's good in you you had from us Ergo if you be honest we are honest If this Consequence be true viz. That if all that 's good in one Church they had in another then if one be true so is the other I will upon your own principles prove Rome a true Church Thus If you be true Churches Rome is true but the former is true Ergo. The Consequence is only to be made good if all that 's good in the Parishes of this Nation you had from Rome both persons and things then the Consequence is certain because Nihil daâ— quod non habet but all that 's good in yours c. The Consequence is your own the Minor is evident that you both persons and Ordinances came from Rome and thus you may see what your Logick helps you to Now let 's see upon this Consequence which way you can prove your selves true and Rome false and I am confident if you speak to the purpose you will answer for me against your self But if by these words had from ours you should say you mean not only to have a Companie out but to have them made good and fitted by those from whence they be taken if thu be your meaning then the Minor of your second Syllogism is contrarie to your self for sure you never fit men to say that your Ministrie is false your Church and Ordinances false and that ours is true and that they ought to Separate from you and come to us if not they were not fitted by you for us for thus they come to us Thus the Consequence of your Argument carries with it no Concluding force and the Conclusion falls to the ground for if all that 's good in us dia come from you as it doth not Yet we might be true and you false But secondly I deny your Minor viz. That all that 's good in us came from you Two things you say make persons good profession of the true Faith and Correspondant prety the former I yielded the latter granted I Answer I never granted any such thing I have granted and still do that there may be some in the Parochial Assemblies that may be godly People but that they be professors of the true Faith as it is fully banded out in the Gospell I have alwais denied So not yielding the former not granting the latter Our Baptizing them immediatly at their departure you say argues we judge them fit matter c. I answer It 's not true we Baptize them not Immediatly at their departing you but upon considerable time of triall as may be convenient to judge that their Conversations together with their principles in owning of ours and disowning of yours and all others so far as they be contrary to truth is reall Next you say for things the pure word and Sacraments rightly Dr. B. administred they had in our Church you will not I know object want of discipline because you teach that not to be necessarie to the being of a Church If it
of Grace and Knowledge and the word plainly shews that they did all at first appear to be Saints though they afterwards degenerated and fell to disobedience yet they retained the Name till actually excommunicated Now more particularly to your Argument The Antecedent of your first Syllogism I deny The Minor also of the 2d if you adde as you must or else you do nothing in their first constitution The Major in the 3d. I own in the first branch but deny the Minor in both branches To your Minor in the 4th which you say cannot be denied I have these things to say to the former branch of it first That there may be some truly in Gods favour in your Parishes I grant but this doth not prove those societies wheresoever they are visible Saints except those others had formerly visibly been in that condition for some of Gods people have been and may be in Babylon Rev. 18. 4. yet Babylon no society of Saints 2ly You say the Apostle bids ns account men ignorant and wicked if they be not obstinately and wilfully so brethren it is true but whether were they to be accounted brethren as ignorant and wicked or as having been first visibly holy and still in hopes of recovery this latter is evident Now these in your Parishes who are ignorant and wicked though not wilfully obstinate never were visible Saints as these Thessalonians were such who were in God the Father ver 1. Elect of God ver 4. Followers of the Apostles ver 6. and of the Lord such as had received the word of God Chap. 2. 13. Followers of the Church of God ver 14. such whose faith grew exceedingly and charity of every one to each other abounded 2. Epist 1. 3. c. Now of these worser sort of your Members there could never be any such thing affirmed they never being in that condition therefore this Scripture doth not prove the worser sort brethren 3ly Far wide is it to say the worst of all be Professors of the true faith because they profess in words that Christ is the Son of God c. for that profession with the Mouth joined with denial in practice is a lie 1 John 2. 3. A man cannot serve two Masters but his servants they are to whom they obey now the worst of your members following the works of the Divel he is their Master I wonder that you wander so far about keeping such a coyl about the Churches that were fallen from what they were at the first when you well know that before ever you can apply any of these Scriptures rightly to your purpose you must make your Parishes in the first forming like those viz. visible Saints either resolve to speak home to your question or say nothing Either you must say that a Church may be formed up in its first Constitution of visible Saints and visible wicked or else of visible Saints the former I think you will never affirm if you own the latter as I think you do I earnestly intreat you to shew prove that all the Parishes of this Nation in their first division into Parishes were visible Saints except you do this all parallels between you Sardis Corinth c. will never help you if you say they were all Professors of the true faith at their first constitution and so fit matter which I think is all that can be said I answer those that at their first constitution were for the most part abhominable disobedient and to every good work reprobate they were not all Professors of the true faith but the 8432. as I think Parishes of this Nation at their first constitution were for the most part such Ergo the Major is undeniable for works words are to be joined together to the making up of a true profession The Minor I prove thus If the greatest part of the men in the mentioned Parishes did at their first constitution onely profess to know God and in works deny him then they were abhominable c. but they did so Ergo the Minor is manifest the consequent is the Apostles Titus 1. 16. more shall be said of this in answer to the next Argument Now to the latter branch touching the Parochial Assembly being conjoined in Covenant which is evinced by their constant meeting every Lords Day to worship God together which is an implicite Covenant Though I might well let this pass for I deny a Covenant to be the form of the Church and therefore you have little reason to say this is our definition of a Church for though I own it in the first branch yet not in the second yet notwithstanding seeing you undertake to prove your Churches by this to be true in form they fall short of what they who make this definition intend by it and what it holds forth I shall speak something to it thus This combining or conjoining c. is by them who are called though falsely independently the form of the Church whereby first they know themselves from all other societies in the world and 2ly whereby they are ingaged to a special watch over each other Now this which you speak of that you have viz. A constant meeting every Lords Day c. is neither of these for first this meeting thus together carries with it no note of the Church from the world at all for seeing that all may come to hear and many in the world that are not of the Church may come to one place constantly to serve God how is this possible to distinguish the Church and the world asunder they can never be known either by others or themselves and 2ly this combining conjoining c. ingages them together as members of one body to a special watch over each other c. Now to meet together every Lords Day c. is no such thing for if that be an incorporating into the Church if that be the form of the Church there needs no more to enter a man into the Church but comming to worship God every Lords Day which is ridiculous for then a man may make himself a Member of any Church whether they will or no neither doth this ingage them to any watch at all over each other for if it ingage one then all that so come and then a man meerly of the world out of the Church is ingaged to watch over the Church and they over him which is not true Thus it appears that for ought that you have said you have not had at the constitution of your Churches a right matter viz. visible Saints neither such a form as you indeavoured to prove You teach me what I should have proved as if my argument concluded not the question not considering that it is our Churches present not Reply Dr. B. Primitive estate which I undertake to vindicate what the men in the Parishes of this Nation were in their first forming I have not now to say you say they might consist yea you rise higher and
it as a Pillar c. Now Sir The Minor is evidently false the very naming of it is Confutation sufficient it being evident to behold that the Parishes of this Nation have always been and still are inclinable to whatsoever their Teachers and Rulers set up without ever questioning the truth of it except here and there a man which is nothing to our question it being of the Parishes generally Look upon them in the time of Popery and produce one Parish-Church much less all that opposed the power of the Pope but all inclinable to that wicked worship so in the time of Prelacy how conformable to that never once talking then of Presbytery and I believe as formerlâ— so now if the power of this Nation should enact that al should turn Independents they would obey without any general opposition and within this few years would as little think of Presbytery which you think to be truth now as they did then when he was Counted an Hereticke that believed not as the Church believed Which was then the scarlet-coloured whore of Rome and yet you let not to say they have been the Pillar of Truth defending it against all Errors which if true Presbytery is false in that the Parishes of this Nation have born Testimony to two contrary Religions Popery and Prelacy That Church that one time professeth Popery and another while Prelacy being variable according to the times in which she lives that Church is not the Pillar and ground of truth But the Parishes of this Nation have one while c. Ergo and for Revel 2. 13. When you have proved the Parishes of this Nation Pergamus I will Consider of it I know no advantage I should have gotten if the word Reply Dr. B. Church had been permitted to stand instead of Parishes but rather disadvantage because a National Church is as liable if not more to exception nor can I imagine how this could have hidden the folly of my Argument its folly to pick a quarrell the Church is nothing els but the Parishes or if you will that is the Mother these the daughters the Minor proposition which you deny will appear evident enough by considering the Apostles meaning of Pillar and Ground of Truth and applying it to our Assemblies both which I will do in few words The House or Church of God is so call'd in respect of the profession and maintenance of the true Religion of God which it both supporteth as a Pillar and maketh it openly known to others as Magistrates use to hang and affix their Edicts and Proclamations on pillars or other places of strength and firmness and here consequently is declared the Office and duty of the Church in holding and publishing the Truth and defending it against all Errors Contradictions and Corruptions and whatsoever Societies do this it s written upon those Societies with a Sun beam that they are the true Churches of Christ Now it s notoriously known that the Articles of Religion agreed upon Anno 1562. are published and consented to by all the See the answer of the Elders of the several Churches of New England to the ninth Question p. 26. and Church Covenant p. 40. Ministers endowed in every Congregation of this Nation with the silent consent also of the People and subscription of the hands of the chief of them wherein they do acknowledge no rule of Faith or Manners but the holy Scriptures no divine worship but to God only no Mediation nor Salvation but in Christ only no Conversion by Mans free will but by Gods free grace no Justification but by Faith no perfection nor merit of works with all other necessary and saving truths upon which the Church is grounded and built and which also it holdeth forth and maintaineth This alone abundantly evinceth that the Parishes of this Nation are the Pillar and ground of Truth Besides these truths are daily in most Congregations faithfully opened and applyed and whatsoever is contrary thereunto on the right hand or left convincingly confuted our Parishes therefore keeping Gods Records faithfully are his Registers and consequently his true Churches Your declaiming against the inclinableness of our People to alter with their Governors might have been spared well knowing it was the practice of the Church of Israel to do so and the Churches of Galatia how soon were they removed from him that called them into the Grace of Christ unto another Gospell to the admiration of the Apostle Galat. 1. 6. And therefore it needs be no marvell if our people so easily change from one Church-Goverment to another which they may do without prejudice to fundamental verity which though the Galathians overthrew yet they remained true Churches If you read the Epistle of Christ to Pergamus understandingly and compare our Church with that you will find that we are not worse and wherein any in that Church were praise-worthy for doing or suffering you may find some in ours not short of them From our practice agreeing with the practice of the Primitive Arg. 7. Dr. B. Apostolical Churches Those Societies that continue stedfast in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship and breaking of bread and in Prayer are true Churches Acts 2. 42. but so do ours Ergo. I deny your Minor and the reason why we separate from you is upon Answ J. O. that ground you have added neither Scripture nor Reason to prove your Minor but have left it destitute of all proof you could hardly have brought a Scripture in all the Bible which in every thing both in doctrine and practice makes so directly against you as this that you have brought for you For first your doctrine is contrary secondly so is your practice for doctrine first after that Peter had preacht the Lord Christ to these men it working upon their hearts ver 37. they cryed out What shall we do the doctrine of the Apostle to them ver 38. is Repent and be Baptized and so they were ver 41. they were the same day added to the Church but you both Ministers and People go directly contrary first Baptize them at three or four dayes old and so make them members of your Church and perhaps twenty or forty years after preach Repentance just contrary to the Apostles doctrine and Gods examples 1 King 6. 7. Ephes 2. 21 22. 1 Pet. 2. 5. First you take into your house unhued stones and unsquared timber and twenty or forty years after fall to squaring them for the building Now for your practice in your fellowship the powerfull operation of the Gospell of Jesus Christ after it had workt them from the world and from themselves and one into another in the unity of the Spirit as one man it is said ver 44 45. and all that believed were together had all things common and sold their possessions c. And chap. 4. 32 34 35. and the multitude of believers were of one heart and one soul neither said any of them that ought that he possessed was
Visible Church From the two ends of it neither of which you say are attained by our Peoples constant meeting c. which is untrue for first our Assemblies are hereby known from all other Societies in the world Heathenish jewish Mabometan Popish c. who joyn not together in Gods true Worship 2. The Godly of our Congregations declare themselves hereby ingaged to watch over each other and actually do so yea the whole Body come to be instructed reproved and watcht ever by their Pastors and are admonished of their duty which they yield assent unto and are convinced though the most fail in performance But let our Brethren whose cause you manage speak and they readily acknowledge that we have the same Covenant for substance which themselves have and consequently are as true Churches Read reverend Mr. Hookers survey Chap. 4. thus the People of England in their Parishes constantly hold them to the fellow ship of the People in such a place attend all the Ordinances submit thereto c. by such actions c. they declare by their practises which others by open profission an implicite Covenant preserves the true Nature of the Church because it carries the formalis ratio in it by which a Church is constituted animplicite Covenant in some cases may be fully sufficient as if it consist of such who were children to parents confederate deceased c. The like and fuller acknowledgement you shall finde of all the Elders of New England in their Treatise of Church Covenant where they give the same Reason which you so slight Quoting Mr. Parker whose words in his third Beck of Ecclesiastical policy are these Non abest ea râ—alis Et substantialis quamquam Magis quam par erat implicita Coitio in foe tus eaque professio fidei substantialis quae Deo grata essentialis Ecclesiae idque visibilis huc usque sartam rectam in Anglis conservavit You see how little you have gained by undertaking anothers Cause which though you disclaim as yours in this yet you seem clearly to own in your Answer to the next Argument whichas to gratifie you who cry out sovehemently against the gathering of our Churches concluding that we are no true Churches because we cannot prove that we were at first rightly gathered whereas it is clear enough that we might be true Churches though it could not appear that we were at first rightly gathered as men may be true Christians of whose Baptism and first conversion there can no clear accempt be given and some socities may be named who were doubtless true Churches of whose first gathering nothing can be found in Scripture The Argument proceeds thus Our Churches had a right gathering both out of Heathenism and out of Popery therefore they are true Churches Argu. 3 1. Out of Heathenism we were gathered 500. years before Austin the Monk by the preaching of the Gospel and not at all Dr. B. by compulsion this is proved out of approved Antiquaries 2. Out of Popery I thus reason If the Churches of this Nation were gathered or rather recalled out of Popery into the true Religion by the means that are approved and appointed in the word of God then they were rightly gathered out of Popery But the former is true which is thus made good the means approved and appointed by God to gather or recall a back slided People are preaching and the command of the Civil Magistrate this latter is evident by sundry examples of good Kings 2 Chron. 14. 4. 15 12 13 30 34 32 33. that these were the means of recalling our people out of Popery is acknowledged by all Answ It s true I say you are no true Churches because you cannot prove you were at first rightly gathered and I say it s also Answ as true some may be true Churches of whose first gathering nothing can be found but what is this to your purpose the question I. O. is not whether they be true Churches whose first original cannot be known but whether those be true who can know and finde it and yet are unable to prove it true I question not but was it to your advantage you could quickly tell us of the first original of your Parishes To the first branch of your Argument that these 8432. Parishes of which the whole land is were gatheted by the preaching of the Gospel I desire to see proved I deny not but here might be Churches gathered but I desire to see it proved that they were gathered as now they stand a whole Nation divided into Parish Churches generally If they were thus gathered by the Preaching of the Gospel then they were called from the World after a sort from themselves and united together as one body as all the Churches in the Gospel were Now this whole Nation was never called out of the World visibly what was the World out of which they were called when they were all accounted Members And for others in other Nations they were never amongst 2. The World the lusts thereof they retained in their hearts coveteousness pride malice every evil work visibly seen in many of them 3 So far were they from being united as one Man as that they were many of them deadly enemies one to another sure if the Gospel did gather its effects would be seen To the second branch This Argument is the same with your former only you alter the term from constituting to gathering which in effect is all one for you apply it to your first gathering out of Heathenism which might be understood of constitution so that I do not well know whether it be added as a proof of the former or as an Argument of it self but to follow you in your scope First I cannot see that you have had any constitution at your coming from Popery for there was no alteration of either matter or form which are the essential constitutive principles and if you had any constitution you had it from Papists for before you had none as now you stand or if you had it could do you no good as I shall shew Popery had so deeply infected those that had been true Churches and this among the rest which was one with Rome that the name and nature of your Church was lost yea past recalling for where the Church was called the Spouse the wife the body the house the garden the Temple the Zion of Christ they come to be called A whore a mother of harlots a Babylon an habitation of Divels an hold of every foul Spirit and a cage of every unclean and hareful bird and whereas before the Church was peaceable and meek and kindly affectionate gentle c. Now they come to be a blood thitsty adulterous whore drunk with the blood of Saints for in her was found the blood of all that was slain upon the earth insomuch that the Lord cries out Come out of her my people Now we know whilst that People are in a capacity of
dexterous dividers of the Word of Truth in our Assemblies and of such whose Ministery God hath blessed with Conversion of Souls it might suffice to prove Gods approving the Ordination which you so vehemently inveigh against you will not own one of all our Ministers to be sent of God how able and holy and successfull soever which shewes your miserable shifting off the force of the Argument because the word General is in the question which you as miserably Misunderstand as if it included all The Text in Timothy cleerly shewes that by dividing the Word of Truth aright Gospell Ministers approve themselves to God and that such as do so are called of God And that in 2 Cor. 3. is a like manifest declaration of a lawfull mission for as much as the Apostle brings it to prove his extraordinary calling of Apostleship to which I add Gods own Word Jer. 23. 22. Nor can you give an instance of Gods honouring any Prophets or Ministers not sent by him whose labours he ever blessed with the winning of souls Those Christian Congregations that seeing their defects and Arg. 9. Dr. B. Corruptions labour after Reformation are Christs true Churches but so do the Congregations of England Ergo I deny your Minor I deny that the Parishes of this Nation Generally Answ I. O. see their defects and Corruptions For first there is amongst all diversities of Religion in the World but one that is onely right Secondly There is in this Nation a great many perhaps half of the Ministers and Parishes that stand in their hearts for the Goverment of Bishops that is now put down and the reason why both these Ministers and People are not so active as others is not for want of will but power to execute their will for had they power according to their will you should find the Parishes of this Nation so far from being generally for that which you call Reformation as I believe you should see Presbytery as well as all others besides their own as soon put down as their Common Prayer Surplice Hood Tippit and Altar c. This being so evident that it needs no proof Common sense proves it from whence against your Minor I thus Reasonâ— although I utterly deny that Presbyterian Government which you would establish to be right yet in this place I will give it to you to see of what advantage it will be to you thus that which you would reform those defects and Corruptions that you would mend are such as prevailed in the time of Prelacy when Bishop were in their pomp and as you would reform it to that which is commonly called Presbytery now those that were commonly called by the name of Cavalliers of which there were many whole Parishes Generaâ—â—y these think which you Reform from is Truth and that which you Reform to is false your Reformation is their deformation and that which you count to be Corruption and defect that they count to be truth and would as willingly have all that they have had as you to have the contrary this being evident your Minor is apparently false for how can the Parishes of this Nation Generally see their defects and corruptions and endeavour a right Reformation Generally when that which one Parish would reform from that another Parish would reform to if it be said that many whole Parishes really see their defects and desire to mend I answer whatsome Parishes of this Nation see is nothing to our purpose the Question in dispute is of the Parishes of this Nation generally You discover much Ignorance in making every diversity of Replie Dr. B. Judgment and Practice in point of Church-Goverment a diversity of Religion difference among Christians in higher matters and much neerer the foundation hinders not but they may be of one and the same Religion and so Episcopal men Presbyterians and Independents nor do any of these cast off Antipoedobaptists as men of another Religion but pitty their folly in cutting themselves from Gods Churches by denying all besides their own Societies to be true Churches You mistake much if you think I intend in my Argument the desire and endeavor of the whole body of our People in all our Parishes for a right Reformation the greater part in all times have been backward to good but if you go thorow all the Parishes of England you will find very few where there are not some whose faces are Sion-ward and these with a very great number of Ministers in all quarters earnestly desire that in every Congregation there might be set up a Gospell-government You seem to me cleerly to grant my Major proposition and to yield that there are some of our Parishes who see their defects and corruptions and labour after Reformation If you will acknowledge that these yea but one of these are true Churches I will say it argues ingenuity in you and farther give you satisfaction that through the tender mercy of our God it is with England at this day as it was with those fields our Saviour speaks of John 4. 35. That they are white already to harvest ready to receive a Gospell-Reformation and had been ere now in a more blessed case had not those of your way hindred the work which I pray that God would lay it to your heart that it may not be layd to your charge Drawn from Cant. 1. 7 8. They that walk in the footsteps of Arg. 10. Dr. B. Answ J. O. Christs antient flock are true Churches but ours do so Ergo. If you mean Christs antient flock recorded in the holy Word of God your Minor is denied this is the cause we separate from you because you have and do tread in such steps and pathes as we cannot find in Scripture but in by-paths of the inventions of man and I cannot but wonder why you left your Minor destitute of all proof seeing you cannot but know that it is always denied whether you think it is without dispute or whether you think if you should have compared the Parishes of this Nation with the Churches of Christ mentioned in the Scripture your proof would appear weaker than your bare affirmation or whether you thought barely to affirm was best that so a bare deniall might be returned truly I cannot judge sure I am those that write to satisfiâ— do not in disputable matters only say it is so without proof for to me a bare affirmation without Scripture or reason is proof but weak had you but proved your Minor the Controversie had been ended but seeing you have not I must yet say they that walk not in the footsteps of Christs Antient Flock are no true Churches this is your own by Rule of Contraries but the Parishes of this Nation walk not c. Ergo as is already proved from Acts 2. I thought it superfluous here to compare our Churches with Reply the Churches of Christ mentioned in Scripture having done it already if you look upon the Flock of Christ