their Miraculous Gifts 2 Cor. 12. 12. and encouraged their Auditors to try and examine their Doctrines Acts 17. 11. Gal. 1. 8 9. And this way of trying is so far from making Faith Vain as our Author pretends that it would be vain without it But saith he Were not the Proselytes of St. Paul obliged to believe the Sense and Interpretation he gave to the Text Without doubt but then he did not require them to receive and believe it because he told them so but because it was revealed and that they beforehand were satisfied in the Confirmation he brought of his Apostleship For where there was a new Revelation of any Point to be believed or matter to be done being that could not be any farther examined by Scripture than as it was not contrary to it it wholly was to be resolved into his Mission and they had the same reason to believe his Doctrine as his Mission 3. There is another sort of subordinate Authority which receives both its Mission and Doctrine in an ordinary way And therefore must needs be subject to the like ways of tryal and proof as the former But with this difference that what inspired Persons taught as revealed from God that upon proof of their Mission by Miracles 2 Cor. 12. 12. was to be believed but now when we have only ordinary means and the written Word for our Rule there is no other Doctrine to be received than what is contained in that Rule and so neither can they oblige us nor are we obliged to believe them because they tell us so but as it 's consonant with or contained in or rightly inferred from the Scripture which we are to compare it with and to judge of it by But now our Author makes their Guides not only equal but superior to the Apostles when he tells us We are bound to believe them because they themselves tell us so and that without any examination So that if a man mistakes his Guide or his Guide mistakes he must unavoidably mistake also being wholly to be determined by them And then he must be an Arian with the Popes Felix and Liberius a Nestorian with Anastasius a Monothelite with Honorius and deny the immortality of the Soul with John XXIII And now let any judg where the Foundations of the Prophets and Apostles are digg'd up whether in the Reformed Churches that teach us we are not bound to believe any Guide without tryal of their Doctrine or the Church of Rome which with our Author affirms we are bound to believe our Guides because they tell us we must do so Now our Answerer takes his turn to ask Questions He tells us that for the first he has a pinching one ` T is this If I must know the Church by some marks or notes then I must find these marks first and where must I seek them This is pinching indeed Suppose in a Gazette I should find some marks of a Man that is sought for were it not a severe Objection against the Man who gave them and a pinching Question I must find these Marks before I find the man and where shall I find them I conceive such pinching would force a smile and this Answer Why Friend the marks and the man are found at once for they are to be seen in his Face At the same time as one takes a view of the Catholic Church he sees therein a continual Succession of Bishops and Teachers from the Apostles he discovers her in all parts of the World and finds her thus Catholic he sees in her an undivided Faith Union under one Pastor in the use of the same Sacraments and finds her One he observes her Rule is Let nothing be alter'd of what was receiv'd from the Apostles by a constant Universal Tradition in the Churches which they founded and is convinced she is Apostolical he finds God favours her with the Gift of Miracles promised Mat. 10. and Joh. 14. that she hath fulfilled the Prophesies concerning the Conversion of Nations converted to Christianity by her Children only and he concludes this is she The Prover saith that Now the Answerer takes his turn to ask Questions And good reason after the Addresser had put so many before He tells us further That for the first he has a pinching one 'T is this If I must know the Church by some Marks then I must find out those Marks first and where must I seek them But why is this called the first Question when there are several before it He might better have called it the only Question since it's what he has singled out of many to try the power of his Logic upon And now let us see how he quits himself when he comes to be Respondent His Answer to the Question is Suppose in a Gazette c. and the Marks and the Man are found at once for they are to be seen in his Face Where his whole business is to go off from the Question that is ask'd to a Question that is not ask'd The main Question in the Answer was How shall I find out the true Church Is it because She her self so declares Or that She is knowable by a self-evident Light Or is She to be found out by Marks If by Marks then we must find out the Marks before we find out the Church which is to be known by those Marks and then the pinching Question comes on Where must I seek them That it 's to be fear'd will lead us to the Scriptures Now what is the Sense of the Question Where must I seek them Certainly it is not in dispute whether the Marks are not to be found in the thing sought for by those Marks as he impertinently lays it For if they are the proper Marks of the thing then surely they are to be found with the thing that they are the Marks of or else it is impossible to find out the thing by these Marks But the meaning of the Question is the same as it was in the Address and from whence the Answerer borrowed the Terms and that is Where are the Notes Where are they described Or How shall I come to know them And thus it follows in the Answer It is to be feared this will lead us to the Scripture But because some men are hard of Understanding whether for a weak or a bad reason I determine not I shall begin the matter again It is agreed that there is a Church and that there are certain Marks by which the Church may be found Now the Question is What are those Marks Whether Continual Succession Vniversal Extent Vnion under one Visible Pastor c. Or The Profession of the true Faith right Administration of the Sacraments Now how shall we know or where shall we find which of these are the Marks belonging to the Church and by which it is to be known I shall make it plain by his own instance Supposing that there is somewhat of great Importance depends upon
A VINDICATION OF THE ANSWER TO THE POPISH ADDRESS Presented to the Ministers of the Church of England In Reply to a Pamphlet abusively Intituled A Clear Proof of the Certainty and Vsefulness of the Protestant Rule of Faith c. IMPRIMATUR Liber cui Titulus A Vindication of the Answer to the Address c. Guil. Needham RR. in Christo P. ac D. D. Wilhelmo Archiep. Cant. Ã Sacr. Domest April 26. 1688. LONDON Printed for Ric. Chiswell at the Rose and Crown in St. Paul's Church-Yard M DC LXXXVIII A VINDICATION OF THE ANSWER To the POPISH ADDRESS c. A Clear Proof of the Certainty and Usefulness of the Protestant Rule of Faith Scripture after the Help of Ministerial Guides finally Interpreted by each Man 's private Sense A Title seemingly belonging to a Protestant Book and a Book wrote by a Protestant if the Title and Book do agree But that they are so far from that if Truth and Ability had been on the Author's side it might have been more truly call'd with respect to his Design A clear Disproof of the Certainty c. But why so much Caution Why is not the Address or Answer to it so much as named in the Title We are left to guess and because every man may in such a case use his liberty I could upon Perusal of his Book guess at no reason sooner than that the Prover was not very confident of the sufficiency of his Defence and might by such a clandestine Title secure himself against a further Reply unless his Adversary had nothing else to do than to read all the Pamphlets printed by H. H. or some unlucky Chance should make the Discovery And to say the truth the Prover might have succeeded in his Design and have triumphed in the Victory he had thus secretly stollen had not a little Accident though somewhat late first brought it under his Adversary's eye This proof is drawn from the Answer to the Address presented to the Ministers of the Church of England The Author thereof had required that clear and plain Texts of Scripture be offer'd which interpreted in the Protestant way by those who receive it thus expounded for their whole Rule of Faith should so prove the two principal Articles of Christian Belief the Trinity and the Incarnation of Christ as also the Obligation of keeping holy the Sunday and not Saturday as one of the Commandments seems to require and that so convincingly that a Christian might ground on them his Faith. Interpreted I say in the Protestant-way without any deciding Church-Authority when doubts arise about the sense of the Letter The Prover's Design is to expose the Protestant Rule of Faith and to that end because he had no better way is forced to Misrepresent it For thus he saith Scripture interpreted in the Protestant way is received by them thus expounded for their whole Rule of Faith. But he well knew or should know that the Scripture is with Protestants a Rule of Faith as it 's the Word of God and their whole Rule of Faith as it 's the only Word of God and so is as uncapable of taking in any humane Exposition to be a part of that Rule as it is of any new Revelation That is the Scripture depends not upon the sense given it by any man or Order of men for its being thus a Rule but upon its own Authority But he ventures a little further by way of Explication Scripture saith he interpreted in the Protestant way without any deciding Church-Authority when doubts arise about the Sense of the Letter But supposing there are no doubts about the sense of the Letter then it seems there is in that case no use of any such deciding Authority and that we may be certain of the sense of the Letter without such Authority If so then it would be known of what kind that Certainty is which may be attained without such Authority and whether it be not attained by the use of Reason and Understanding and so is at last resolved into what he decries Private Sense But put the case as he would have it and supposing there be a doubt about the sense of the Letter I demand whether we may not by the like use of our Reason arrive to the same sort of certainty in the things we now doubt of as we have arrived to in the things we are at present certain of without any deciding Church-Authority As for example Suppose a doubt ariseth about this deciding Church-Authority it self how shall the doubt be decided If we seek to the deciding Church-Authority that is the thing in question if we repair to the Scripture the Sense of that is to be declared and determined by the deciding Church-Authority and if we take any other measures for understanding it we fall into the dangerous and abhorr'd extreme of finally interpreting it by private Sense So that either the matter is uncapable of proof and must be taken for granted and there is a deciding Church-Authority because there is so or else if it be to be proved it must be by the same way that other things are proved in and that is by producing the Reasons for it and according to the Judgment made upon it thereby it 's ultimately to be decided And then farewel to the deciding Church-Authority when in a matter of so great Consequence and the first Point to be resolved in it must be submitted to each mans private Sense The Addresser holds if he be a Catholick That Scripture rightly understood is a Rule of Faith That the Gospel revealed by Christ preached by the Apostles and preserved by the Catholick Church is so much our whole Rule of Faith that we own with Tertullian we need not be curiously searching since Christ nor further inquisitive since the Gospel was preached No new Revelations no new Articles being received as of Catholick Faith but those Truths only retained which the Church proposes as delivered to her by the Apostles her whole authority being ever employed as Pope Celestine delivers it to the Council of Ephesus in providing that what was delivered and preserved in a continual Succession from the Apostles be retained so that nothing is of Faith but what God revealed by the Prophets and the Apostles or what evidently follows from it the Catholick Church ever handing it to us and declaring it to be so The Gospel revealed by Christ preached by the Apostles and preserved by the Catholick Church is their whole Rule of Faith. No new Revelations no new Articles being received as of Catholick Faith. What seemingly more Orthodox and spoken more like a Protestant But our Author for fear of Correction tempers it immediately with some of their own Ingredients here and there cautiously applied As for example if we ask Whether the Scripture be their whole Rule of Faith He answers Scripture rightly understood is a Rule of Faith the Gospel revealed by Christ and preserved
by the Catholick Church is their whole Rule of Faith. Is it asked again Whether there are no new Revelations no new Articles received as of Catholick Faith He answers These Truths are only received which the Church proposes as delivered to her by the Apostles The meaning of which Phrases the Gospel rightly understood and preserved by the Church and the Truths which the Church proposes as delivered is that which is thus preserved proposed delivered and interpreted by the Church is as much the Rule as the Scripture and that without this Tradition and Exposition of the Church the Scripture is in Bellarmine's Phrase but a partial Rule Scripture thus interpreted is a Catholick Rule of Faith the Addresser therefore meant nothing less than to diminish its Divine Authority his design was to preserve it and that each mans private sense might not sacrilegiously pretend to be that Word of God which as St. Peter minds us is not of private Interpretation 'T is not against the Authority or Use of Scripture he writ but against the Protestants unjust and insignificant method of using it I will here make good the Charge hoping that when he thinks fit he will much more fully perform it by the very answers given to his Questions which I shall set down in that Order and Sense in which the Answerer construed them Here he tells us 'T is not against the Authority or use of Scripture the Addresser writ The Divine Authority of Scripture consists in its being of Divine Revelation and the reason for which it was revealed is for the use instruction and salvation of mankind But if it be insufficient for attaining that end and either is wanting in what is neeessary or is writ in a way so obscure and dubious that it 's not to be understood by those for whom it was written it 's certainly a Revelation unworthy of God and a considerable argument against its Divine Authority And therefore he that undertakes to prove this must if he be in earnest have a very mean opinion of that Divine Book and designs to bring others to the like opinion of it But this is the apparent design of the Addresser who argues all along against the sufficiency and perspicuity of Scripture even in those points which our Author owns to be the two principal Articles of Christian Belief the Trinity and the Incarnation of Christ clearly giving away the Cause to the Arians and Nestorians and frankly acknowledging nay venturing in his way to prove that the Texts usually insisted on by the Orthodox in proof of those Articles are not sufficient for it So that in conclusion if the Scripture be so perplex'd and obscure so doubtful and ambiguous so unintelligible and insufficient a Rule they may as well lay aside the Scripture as that Father did the obscure Poet with an If thou art not to be understood thou art not fit to be read And yet after all this charge insinuated all along in the Address against the Scripture 'T is not yet against the Authority or Vse of it he writ What then did he write against It was against the Protestants unjust and insignificant method of using it and that each mans private sense might not sacrilegiously pretend to be that word of God which as St. Peter minds us is not of private Interpretation I must confess if each or any mans private sense be pretended to be the Word of God it 's both Vnjust and Sacrilegious since nothing can be the Word of God but what is by his immediate Inspiration But where are they that thus pretend What reason is there for this charge These are things he takes for granted but insinuates that this is done by the Protestants who interpret Scripture by their own private sense But why will this any more prove that because they interpret Scripture by their own sense they pretend their sense to be the Word of God than it follows that those that resolve all into a deciding Church-Authority do therefore pretend that the sense given by that Authority is the Word of God For I presume after all that they will not dare to say such their Interpretations are as much the Word of God as the Word is which they are the Interpretations of However he intimates it 's Sacrilegious to interpret Scripture by each mans private sense when St. Peter minds us the Word of God is not of private Interpretation But surely the Apostle doth not therein include the using and understanding of Scripture by private persons as if that was forbidden when he tells them they did well to give heed to it ver 19. Neither did he suppose they were uncapable of understanding it when he calls it a light and unto which they were to give heed till the day dawn c. Nor farther will the Apostles Argument admit of any such Exposition which is thus Ye ought to give heed to the Scripture for it 's not of private Interpretation for holy men of God spake as they were moved that is Scripture is the Interpretation of God's will the Inspiration of the Holy Ghost and though wrote by men is not of humane invention nor was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of their own motion nor an explication of their own mind but of God's Of this see a late Book called Texts of Scripture cited by Papists c. Pag. 35. The Prover now falls on in earnest and with great resolution saith he will make good the charge of the Protestants unjust and insignificant Interpretation of Scripture by the very Answers given to the Addresser's Questions and that he will set them down in that order and sense in which the Answerer construed them I wish he had added too in his own words as the Answerer did by him For I find no great reason to trust him either as to order or sense Qu. 1. Whether all things necessary to Salvation are contained in Scripture Ans Scripture must contain these Necessaries All Catholics ever owned what St. Augustin teaches That all things which concern Faith and Manners of Life are found in those things which are plainly contained in Scripture So that as St. Gregory expresses it God needs speak to us no more by any new Revelation For as the same St. Augustin observes in the Question betwixt Him and the Donatists about true Baptism which he held absolutely necessary to Salvation Tho we have no proof in this case from holy Scripture yet we follow the truth of holy Scripture even in this case when we do what the Vniversal present Church approves of which Church is commended by the Authority of the very Scripture All true Catholics without doubt ever owned what St. Austin teaches and that not so much because St. Austin teaches it as that what he herein taught is true But to use our Authors words pag. 7. I wonder how this man was so confident as to name St. Austin and quote this place after the Answerer and
then to declare all Catholicks ever owned what he teaches Since I have good reason to question whether our Author be of that number And that 1. Because all true Catholicks ever held the Doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation of our Blessed Saviour to be things which concern Faith and as such to be plainly contained in Scripture But our Author on the contrary saith these are not plainly contained in Scripture and then either according to St. Austin they should not concern Faith or our Author is none of those Catholicks that own what St. Austin teaches 2. The Church of Rome which whatever others think I question not but the Prover holds to be Catholick owns not what St. Austin teaches for she affirms there is a Word Unwritten as well as Written and that this Unwritten Word is as necessary as the Written Forasmuch as there are things relating to Faith and Manners in the Unwritten Word that are not contained in the Written But here our Author has prevented me for he will prove this also to be the sense of St. Austin and both consistent as thus All Catholicks own what St. Augustin teaches that all things which concern Faith and Manners are plainly contained in Scripture For as the same St. Augustin observes about true Baptism which he held absolutely necessary to Salvation that we have no proof in this case from Scripture Yet c. That is the Scripture contains all things necessary relating to Faith and Manners for we have no proof from Scripture for a point absolutely necessary to Salvation which is as if he should say England is a Country that abounds in all things necessary to Life for it wants Bread which is absolutely necessary to it This is in our Author's phrase Pag. 5. a special piece of Logic. I will for the honour of St. Austin and in charity to our Author suppose he turned not to the place in that Father when besides this impertinence he charges upon that Learned Writer he reads we have no proof for we have no example and speaks so darkly of the case it self I will direct him to it it 's Contr. Crescon l. 1. c. 32. let him read it at his leisure and compare it with Ch. 33. And in the mean time I shall furnish him with another saying of the same Father Whether concerning Christ or his Church or any other thing which belongs to Faith and Life I will not say If we who are not to be compared with him that said Though We but if an Angel from heaven shall teach besides what ye have received in the Prophetical or Evangelical Writings let him be accursed But the case in this first Question as it appears stated by the Addresser is Whether all things necessary to Salvation are immediately and expresly contain`d in Scripture or drawn thence by an evident Consequence Our Answerer proves they are so by the three following Texts his Proofs I will set in a due form that their force may lie open to all The first Text is taken out of Joh. 20. 31. where the Evangelist having premised v. 30. Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his Disciples which are not written in this Book says v. 31. These which he had set down are written that you may believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that believing you may have Life in his Name Now what Conclusion can be drawn from this Text to our present purpose but one in one of these two forms First thus The signs set down by St. John Ch 20. are sufficient to make us believe that Jesus is Christ the Son of God but precisely to believe that Jesus is Christ the Son of God is all that is necessary to have Life in his name or to Salvation therefore the 20th Chapter of St. John contains all things necessary to Salvation Or else thus in the Answerer's words All that is as sufficient in its kind to beget Faith in us as Faith is to save us contains all things necessary to Salvation But the 20th Chapter of St. John`s Gospel as it appears by ver 31. is as sufficient to beget Faith in us therefore that 20th Chapter contains all things necessary to Salvation A special piece of Logic However his Conclusion eases the Members of his Congregation from the Obligation of reading any part of Scripture besides the 20th Chapter of St. John 's Gospel Our Author from his love to Logic and his Skill in it undertakes to set the Answerer's Proofs in a due form But by his leave I shall put in a small Charge or two against it As The first Charge I have against what he calls a setting the Proofs in a due form is that his Conclusion is false in its form as his Syllogism has four Terms in it For saith he The signs set down by St. John 20. are sufficient to make us believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God but Precisely to believe that Jesus is Christ the Son of God is all that is necessary c. For precisely to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God is to believe that and no more Whereas by that Phrase the Scripture implies the believing the whole Gospel So Joh. 11. 27. I believe that thou art the Christ the Son of God. Acts 8. 37. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 1 John 5. 5. Who is he that overcometh the World but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God 2. He puts his Query too extravagantly Now what Conclusion can be drawn from this Text to our present purpose but one therefore the 20 th Chapter of St. John contains all things necessary This is a Conclusion of his own forming and before he can infer it must ask two or three things which he may be sure will never be granted him 1. He takes it for granted that by these in St. John are to be understood only the Signs set down in that Chapter Whereas 1. St. John in the former Verse speaking of the Signs done by Jesus saith they are not written in this Book but these are written Where Not in that Chapter for to say the truth on 't whatever our Author thinks St. John did not divide his Gospel into Chapters but in that Book And thus inded Bellarmin understands it But 2. The Apostle further enlarges this Phrase Chap. 21. 24 25. This is the Disciple which testifieth of these things and wrote these things And there are also many other things which Jesus did And so what is true of the Signs is also true of the other things wrote by that Evangelist 3. Tho St. John spoke this more especially of the things writ by himself yet the same is applicable to what was wrote by the rest of the Divine Writers And it might be said of what was written by them as well as of what was written by him These are written that ye might believe And this was the
finding out a particular person and that he that would find him out knows not the man but for his better direction applies himself to one that knows somewhat of this matter and asks him Sir How shall I find out such a Man or where may I seek the Marks by which he may be discover'd Would it not force a Smile to have this Answer Do you ask that Why Friend the Marks and the Man are found at once for they are to be seen in his Face Would he not be made much the Wiser by this grave Reply and forthwith be able to find out the Man he seeks for by this goodly Direction Or would he not say Sir I came not to be informed of that which every one that is not a stark Fool understands as well as your Worship but I would know what are those Marks which are to be seen in his Face and by which I may know him from your self or any other and where are they describ'd And will not the other if he be able and willing to inform him then tell him the Marks are in the Gazette and there you may find them Now which is to be found out first the Marks or the Man And what are those Marks and where must I seek them Surely it needs no Application As for his Triumphant Marks of the Church he may find them answered to purpose in the Book not long since published upon that Argument 'T is also observable at what a distance these men are from the true Church who conceive it so hard to find her out All holy Fathers ever judged it a most easy thing to each Person insomuch that the Holy Doctor St. Augustin thus delivers his Sense of it I tell you with truth Brethren the Prophets have spoken more obscurely of Christ than of the Church I believe because they saw in Spirit that men would make Sects against the Church but would not be so much divided about Christ But 't is natural for a Crimnal to question the Power of his Judge and these men know it hath ever been the Sense of all Christians which St. Augustin exprest in the following Words There is no Salvation out of the Church who doubts of it Therefore whatever you have from the Church Seripture Creed Sacraments c help you not to Salvation out of the Church whether you believe contrary to the Truth or being divided from the Vnity gather not with Christ whence St. Paul says to Heretics Those who do such things shall not possess the Kingdom of Heaven He saith 'T is observable at what a distance Men are from the true Church who conceive it so hard to find it out But our distance from the true Church is not the more because we conceive it so hard to find her out in their way and by such Marks which if there are no other it 's impossible to find her out by But now if we go in St. Austins way then it 's not difficult for thus he determines it The weak seeks for the Church The wandring seeks for the Church I inquire after the Voice of the Pastor Read this to me out of the Prophet and read it out of the Psalms recite it from the Law the Gospel the Apostle Look for it in the Scripture and there you will find it Here the Prover cites a Passage out of St. Austin which I am confident he did not read there For 1. he quotes the 4 th Book of St. Austin de Vnitate whereas there is but one Book in all 2. There are several mistakes in the Quotation it self As he saith There is no Salvation out of the Church who doubts of it Whereas the Words of St. Austin are Qui autem super arenam aedificant i. e. qui audiunt Verba non faciunt as just before quis dubitaverit quod regnum Dei non possidebunt That is But those who build upon the sand who doubts that they shall not possess the Kingdom of Heaven Again the Prover reads it Whatever you have from the Church Scripture Creed Sacraments c. help you not to Salvation out of the Church Whereas there is nothing of this but it follows after what was said of the builders on the sand Nihil utique prodest Baptismi Sacramentum that is So that the Sacrament of Baptism profits not such And then he quotes that of St. Paul Those which do such things c. without that other Insertion of his Whether you believe contrary to the Truth c. The matters are not much material but by this the Reader may judg what a careless injudicious or confident to say no worse Adversary I have to deal with His other Queries have no difficulty and withal so little of Sense that I shall not offer to force my Readers Attention on them Whether the other Queries had any Sense I shall leave to others to judg but however because they may not be so easie to others as to himself it is to be wished he had shewed a little more of his good Nature and Condescendency to have resolved them I shall try once again whether I can make sense of them and leave him to try whether he can answer them If they are not Sense they are not to be understood and so there can be no hurt to Propose them If they have no difficulty they are the easier and the sooner answered The Queries Propounded in the Answer and yet remaining to be resolved are these Q. 1. What those Necessaries to Salvation are that are not contained in Scripture and where each of them is to be found Q. 2. Whether the Articles of Pope Pius's Creed joined to the Nicene Creed are as clearly to be proved from Scripture as those of the Nicene Creed or that those of the Nicene Creed are no more to be proved from Scripture than those of Pope Pius Q. 3. Whether it 's as necessary to believe the Church of Rome is the Mother and Mistress of all Churches and the Pope to be the Vicar of Christ and all the other Articles of that Creed of Pope Pius as it is to believe that our Lord Jesus was Incarnate and the rest of the Articles of the Nicene Creed Q. 4. Which has the first and Supreme Authority the Scripture or the Church Q. 5. Whether the Church can ordain new Articles of Faith and which when so ordained are as much to be received and believed as those which have their Authority immediately from Scripture Q. 6. Which is to be sought for first the Notes or the Church that is to be found out by these Notes If the Church then how shall I know it If the Notes where must I seek them Q. 7. If the Church be to be an Infallible Guide when it 's found out then what is the Guide that will infallibly lead to the Church And whether is that Guide to be sought for within the Church or without it Q. 8.