Selected quad for the lemma: faith_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
faith_n	church_n	true_a	visible_a	19,269	5	9.3685	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A62427	The Quakers quibbles in three parts : first set forth in an expostulatory epistle to Will. Pfnn [i.e. Penn] concerning the late meeting held to Barbycan between the Baptists and the Quakers, also the pretended prophet Lod. Muggleton and the Quakers compared : the second part, in reply to a quibbling answer to G. Whiteheads, entituled The Quakers plainness ... : the third part, being a continuation of their quibbles ... / by the same indifferent pen.	Thompson, Thomas.; Hedworth, Henry.; Penn, William, 1644-1718.	1675 (1675)	Wing T1013; ESTC R41153	141,349	262

which neither they nor others can give before you can be tryed by that because that is the question whether you have the SPIRIT and the POWER OF GOD or no MORE than others 7. And then let me tell George That if he could Demonstrate it this way it would not be nay it could not be any Imposing upon me if G.W. did visibly Evidence and demonstrate to me by Power and mighty Deeds that he had indeed that Power and Spirit that he says he hath Therefore thou talkest deceitfully as if that would be an Imposing But now yours is imposing when you condemn Men for not-believing that you have immediate Revelations or in that you assert and would have us believe you are MORE inspired than other Men or other Societies and Bodies of Christians And you tell us you have the Spirit and are in the Truth MORE than others whom you Condemn as false and yet you produce NOTHING except YOUR BARE SAY-SO MORE than others who SAY SO of themselves as you do of your selves Now here 's the IMPOSING you pretend you are Infallible and yet produce no more or other effects of your Infallibility than other Men can or do Nay on the contrary the same effects of Fallibility are evident among you as among others and yet if any deny it in you you Censure and Curse them for not believing you and this is your way of Imposing And you Quakers say you are immediately sent of God and commissioned from God to deliver such or such a Message or Curse and that this and that is given forth by the Holy Ghost in you or from the Spirit and yet you shew no more certainty to prove to us and for us infallibly to build our Faith on that you are so sent and SO Commissioned from God than Muggleton does or other Churches which yet your selves say ARE NOT SENT OF GOD nor Commissioned by him Now here 's imposing upon Mens beliefs and this I say you are guilty of yea and most eminently guilty of next to Muggleton or the Pope of any Person or People I know and this is the thing George thou shouldst have Answered if thou hadst Answered me to the purpose and main bent of my Epistle to W.P. But this thou pittifully evadest and sl●ly wouldst slide from But now since you pretend to such high things if you had the visible Spiritual Gifts that were amongst the true Primitive Churches and Apostles to evidence and demonstrate the Truth of what now you ONLY SAY and pretend I should never nor I suppose any Man in his wits call or esteem it any imposing on my Faith But the other is so indeed as I have shew'd you and therefore G. I would take thee by the hand and lead thee back again praying thee not to shuff●e and Cut also but Answer this and not that which I never desired of thee nor W.P. That 's the very thing I found fault with you before viz. That you would Answer to that which was not askt you instead of returning Answer to that which was and yet still thus thou servest me but it will not do For my design is that I may know you better what Real Power Evidence and Authority you have BEYOND others that so I may have a good Foundation for my Faith and give Credit to it and you Or that for want of it you may be brought to a better fight of your selves and see your nakedness and Poverty though you say as the Church of Laodic●a that you are rich and so may learn to be humble and not Censure others except you can better evidence your own 9. And yet why wilt thou say you have not imposed thus your Faith on others Was not and hath not your Language been such as this viz. It 's true that Timothy Titus and others WHO HAD GIFTS IN THEM for the Ministry were approved by Paul and others of the Primitive Elders for the work but this is no Proof that these opposers Ministers are either so gifted or approved G.W. Enthusiasm above Atheism p. 5. And so say I neither is it any Proof that the QUAKERS MINISTERS are SO GIFTED or APPROVED and the Words before-cited of G.F. before thy own Book Have you the SAME POWER and SPIRIT that gav● forth the Scriptures G.W. Wilt thou believe thy own words Then see thy Answer to Mr. Richard Baxters two sheets for the Ministry p. 16. We never understood that they that set up these Priest● were called as Peter or Paul or the Elders who had Power to lay on the hands that the HOLY GHOST FELL ON THE PARTY ON WHOM THEY LAID ON THE●R HANDS and shew me any ONE of thy MINISTERS CALLED SO George G. F. To all People in all C●ristendom says thus p. 2. All Sects have the words of the Apostles but out of the Power and Life A Paper sent forth into the World from the Quakers p. 5. We are against the Pastors that NOW STEAL the words of the Prophets of Christ and his Apostles W.P. Reason against Railing p. 115. Many may run into the Practice of several outward things mentioned in the Scriptures to have been the practice of Saints in former Ages and yet not be led into the Truth for all that is but will-worship Imitation and unwarrantable And all this I may say against you which you have said against others and if they were good then why not still For you have but the Names and Images of things you have got the words used in Scripture the Power and the Spirit the Gifts of the Spirit the Demonstration of the Spirit and Power But alas where is the thing it self viz. the visible Power and Gifts of the Spirit the Demonstration of the Spirit that the true Apostles had and the Scripture speaks of To this George can poorly say what if God will not bestow such Gifts now why then George I say thou hast them not only hast stolen the words out of the Scriptures thou hast got the Name the Image and words as thou sayest the Baptists and others have done but alas art as barren of the Gifts themselves as they are only art got into a Form but denyest the True power of God and Demonstration of the Spirit in Signs and mighty Deeds 10. Pa. 33. G.W. hath this further to say That he doubts not but where the Spirit of God lives and Rules it will manifest it self by its Fruits for it is self-evidencing and that they have a record in Heaven and also in many Consciences of the blessed Power of God with them and in them Reply And cannot the Baptists say all this nay and do not they many times They can say th●y have a Record in Heaven and in many Consciences also who believe them and pray tell me G. how thou wilt get up to Heaven to search the Record there and disprove them Did one ever hear such silly stuff as this man writes did he indeed think to shufflle it off with such

they themselves now confess that notwithstanding all that and all their Preaching up and confidence of the Light Spirit and Voice of the Lord WITHIN them they yet had not a distinct discerning of the Lord's Voyce not their minds brought into so much as a CAPACITY to discern it how can they be MORE confident and Infallibly evidence they are MORE certain of it now Or why may they not be mistaken and mistake the Lords Voyce now as well as fifteen or sixteen Years ago or not well discern which or what is the Lords Voyce And why may they not change again and again fifteen or sixteen Years hence and say then they had not before a distinct discerning of the Lords Voyce If the Quakers say but they know now they have it so the Quakers formerly said they knew it they felt it they handled it they witnessed it IN themselves and yet the Quakers now say they were so far out then as not to have a distinct discerning of the Lords Voyce And so then may the Quakers now for all their pretences and confident talk Let my Reader take Notice and they Consider what 's become of their Quaking and Shaking their mighty Motions and pretended Voyce of the Lord within And I think this may be enough for Quaking to shew that the present Quakers I deal withall have little more than the Name now in this particular Sic mutantur SECT II. The Quakers Quibbles about Set-days and Set-places Sect. 1. PRinciples of Truth p. 42. per E. Burroughs We believe his True Worship required and accepted of him is not by the Tradition of Men in outward Observances or Set-days or Places but he is Worshipped onely in Spirit and Truth without respect of Times Places or Things And this was one while the Quak●rs general Doctrine that they should not run nor be enjoyned by others to come to Meetings but as they ●re moved of the Lord thereto and that without that it was but Will-Worship See Principles of Truth p. 24. 51. Every Man ought to be left FREE as the Lord shall perswade his own mind in doing or leaving undone this or th' other practice in Religion Sect. 2. But to whirle about and run round again at other times P. Livingstone can tell you Idem p. 5. It is a dark Spirit clearness and FREEDOM is not in it but it hath and doth lead into Bondage And here Satan by Transforming himself hath obtained his End and purpose in such for which cause he first Transformed himself in the matter of the Hat and the Hand and not coming to Meetings until they should be moved of the Lord untill at last he obtained his end to get them not to come at all and not to let them rest therewith but also made and makes them believe lyes as namely that they be moved of the Lord to cry against Meetings c. And we are certain enough what that Spirit leads to in the end for all its fair appearance if it be followed to the end c. And who now Observes more their set-days and hours too their first and fourth days meeting and set places Built on purpose a● the Bull and Mouth and Grace-Church-street c. than the Quakers And thus are they run into Forms as those whom they once condemned and now deny that FREEDOM they once allowed and cry'd for which is all but a Quibble SECT III. The Quakers Quibbles about Forms and the Church Sect. 1. THat the Quakers at first did cry out against Forms and several external Ordinances and all Formality in Divine Worship and the Church of God is so generally known that I think I need not trouble the Reader with Instances yet if any should doubt it see G. Fox Mystery p. 65. Paul brought the Saints off from things that a●● seen and water is seen and it's Baptism Here is a few words will serve for all Sect. 2. But then to go round again when others of the Quakers Object against them That taking off the Hat in prayer and taking by the Hand are but Formal and that by setting up this Friends were setters up of Forms now hear the Quakers Quibble P. Livingstone Idem p. 12. in Answer to that Objection The Form of Truth we own that which Truth appears in that is the Form of Truth Friends do not chuse a Form for the Truth but Truth chuseth its own Form and moveth in it at its pleasure Oh Excellent then it seems taking off the Hat or taking by the Hand is the Form among the Quakers that Truth appears in and this is the Form that the Truth chuseth for its own Oh rare Formalists Sect. 3. Then P. Livingstone goes on p. 13. And we know those that do the contrary pretend what they will it is by and in that Spirit which is opposite and opposes the Truth of God and its Children and we know if they were lead by the Spirit of the Body id est the Church they would be led to the same things it leads the Body and acts the Body in for the Body is one though many Members it being guided by one Life and they agree in these things and one stands not with the Hat on and another with it off nor one doth not give the Hand and another refuseth which is a contradiction but we see further into the thing than the Hat and Hand We see and know the Spirit of Enmity in the ground and it is truly testified against to be that Spirit of ANTI-CHRIST against CHRIST and the Spirit of Truth in the Body i.e. the Church beareth this Testimony against that Spirit and them Acted by it Oh what Rents and Divisions this evil Spirit hath made How many poor simple Hearts have been drawn aside by it So far he Now is not this exactly like the Doctrine and Practice of the Church of Rome Nay the Quakers are got so far as to say Friends that stand in the Life and are the Body know that there is not NOR CANNOT BE preservation out of the Body meaning the Body of Quakers For they that are out of the Body are out of the Faith ●●d are not of the Body Pat. Livingstone p. 20. Just as the Papists say there 's no Salvation out of the Church Yea and more that they must believe as the True Church meaning the Quakers Church Believes or else positively they cannot be saved For these are his express words viz. I bear my testimony for that People in scorn called Quakers that the Lord hath chosen them a peculiar People above all People upon the Earth and we are to turn to no other People c. And they that believe not as the true Church-Believes CANNOT BE SAVED But this we know of an INFALLIBLE certainty that WE being faithful in the Truth those that are gone from us are of another Spirit and not of the Faith of the True Church P. Livingstone p. 22 23. this is like the very top-stone of Popery and

by Circumlocutions one while and by Addresses to the Auditors another and sometimes by giving way to another of thy Friends to begin a Discourse of some new Matter or to raise some new Question before the former was ended the better to shift off the old or bring it in Oblivion confounding the Minds of your Auditors with other Words I cannot so well call this a Quibble as a base old way of Evasion and Shifting Do you think that we do not know this to be no new Device but sorry I was to see you use it Truly Sir I cannot but own Jer. Ives's Answer to your Distinction to be very good and pertinent and doubtless if you had not found it so too you would have Replyed to it but I found all your mouths stopt as to that His words as I remember were these or to this effect That then I or any Man might say by the same Reason that Will. Penn or Geo. Whitehead was never seen with Bodily or Carnal Eyes because the Excellency and better part of them viz. their Souls was never seen though their Bodies be seen which is not the Man Now what an absurdity would this be And yet is it not the same that you said then concerning Christ's being seen and not seen and thereby over-shooting your self obliged Geo. Whitehead to make a long Discourse to bring you off as handsomly as he could from a Contradiction But since you did not detect the irrationality of this Answer and Similitude at the Meeting I should be glad to see it from you any-where else in words that are rational and intelligible 7. In that Thou first crydest out thy self as the Proverb is stop Thief When thou hadst first made a great noise and stir then thou appealedst to thy Auditors for Justice and to hear thy Answer whereas thy Self and Friends were then the most guilty a●d greatest Offenders in that kin● in making a clamor and pudder without giving us a direct Answer What need was there for thee to cry out to thy Auditors to hear thy Answer when we could hear none from thee though we had stood waiting and gaping well-nigh an hour for nothing else I say I cannot apprehend this to be fair and candid Dealing either with thy Opposites or Auditors but rather a neat trick of crying Whore first as they say at best but idle superfluous vain words which become not a Christian such an one as thou professed thy self to be Really Sir I do admire that you should or would carry your selves so as to get a name of obstinate unreasonable and disorderly Men I was told before-hand that you would never Dispute either soberly or rationally in any due Order or Method and notwithstanding you are still confident and ready to appoint Disputes and Conferences Yet when you come to it you must have your own Will for a Law and your own Way imposed upon your Opponents or else you will not Dispute So that you give too much occasion to Persons to think and judg you a perverse Generation obstinately confident and confidently obstinate without Order or Rule Rime or Reason Wise only in your own conceits whom Solomon Characterises Fools and so fit for no Man to Dispute With except some of Muggleton's Disciples guilty of the same perverse and unreasonable Humour with you even to the making your selves Ridiculous no small Testimony whereof this last Meeting proved Why may you impose on others and they not upon you 8. I will crave leave to mention one thing more at this present of my observing and that is thy so oft using the gross word of Lying and Forgery and Lyar and Forger especially in thy Books against Tho. Hicks that it will hardly stand with good Manners such Language to be so common and frequent me thinks sutes not well with a well-civilized Man much less with a good Christian and what does it signifie To say it is a Lye that is neither an Answer nor an Argument Therefore in love I should advise thee to leave off all such Billings gate-Rhetorick and gross Language it being more fit for Scolds that are Duckt then to be used in Conferences or Writings amongst those that own themselves Christians at least so very frequently But if that be one way of Confutation then it will be no hard thing to Confute all thy Writings 'T is pitty so Learned a Person as thy self should be so linkt to a Party or blinded with Passion to Eclipse the more noble part of thy Reason by being engaged with such a People and having received their Principles thereby thinkest thy self obliged now to maintain them though therein thou makest thy self Pedantick Time and Experience may convince thee better though I cannot hope nor expect to do it believing that when somewhat of the height of thy Fancy and the heat of thy Brain is spent and abated thou wilt be calmer and wiser and that is all the Hurt I wish thee In the interim I only desire thee to consider of this if not now yet hereafter when thou art cool For the heat of the Dispute having so distempered the Humors in thee and raised thy Spirit I cannot promise my self much present good success as to thee herein though I have hopes it may have some with Others So I Rest Thy Friend in plainness Thomas Thompson Postscript I Hinted in the fifth Particular i' th Margent That some of the Quakers quibble as much about the Word Body as the Word Christ as appears by what one of them told me That the Church of Christ is his Body and when I answer'd him That was only figuratively or by way of Allusion that as all the natural Members compacted together and united to the Head make a Natural Body So the Church being knit together by One Profession and Baptism as Members of a Body become united by Faith to Christ as their Head and so the Church is by way of similitude and metaphorically called the Body of Christ but no otherwise that I understood What then says the Quaker Wilt thou make Christ a Monster and say he has two Bodies or words to that effect Now then after the same manner of Reasoning and Quibbling I may as well say Mr. Keith in the Dispute by his Distinction made three Christs when he told us more than once That Christ was Most properly taken for the Godhead or Divine Nature Less properly for the Manhood or Humane Nature And least properly of all for the Carkass Now after this rate may not one say That the Quaker says There are three Christs in Scripture A most proper Christ And a less proper Christ And a Christ least proper And that with as much truth as for them to affirm Christ would be a Monster on the account above For what can be thought not only more distinct but absolutely Different Then The Godhead Eternal God The Manhood Living Man A Carkass a Dead Body Study it as long as ye will And further

ridiculous words as these I could tell the Quakers that some of them have a Record somewhere else be-besides the Court of Heaven viz. in the Court of Chancery for Swearing or Oaths I told W.P. That if his Church be the True and the Baptists Church false rightly to convince others thereof upon good and infallible grounds he must pretend to and produce some such discriminating Evidence or Sign for Proof thereof which the Baptists nor no false Church could in like manner produce as he doth I pray'd W.P. to shew wherein the POWER of GOD or the SPIRIT DEMONSTRATED it self MORE in the Quakers than the Baptists or a false Church And that he must do say something for his Church if he would say any thing to purpose which they could not do and say for theirs as an Evidence or Demonstration thereof and that this was NO MORE than what the true Primitive Church had and could and did on all necessary occasions visibly produce and Demonstrate Now what does the Quibbler Answer to all this he says nothing but what the Baptists can or do say that they have a Record in Heaven and in many Consciences also and that they doubt not but where the Spirit of God Lives and Rules it will manifest it self for it is self-Evidencing Then by that Rule the Quakers should not have the Spirit of God at best no more than others have because it does not manifest it self in them more than in others 11. P. 33. says G.W. This seems to be a hard task and I believe so indeed and too hard for all the Quakers though I was so reasonable as to demand but one such Testimony or Gift in all their Churches and they never read of any Christian-Church in Holy Scripture that had not some and many such Gifts Yet G. undertakes to say that it is no difficult matter for W.P. and many more to produce or demonstrate some such effects of that living Testimony presence and power of God among us as no false Church CAN PRODUCE although herein neither W.P. nor any of us will ADMIT OF PREJUDICED and ENVIOUS SPIRITS to be our JUDGES or WITNESSES in th●se matters Reply Bravely said George if it were as well done but for all thy boasting that not only W.P. but many more among you could yet the poor Man does not dare produce or so much as name one of them is not this excellent What must all Men believe it because thou saiest it Is IPSE DIXIT come to Town and the Quakers bare word all the Evidence they have or can produce Now it would have been a great piece of this Quakers-plainness if he had produced one or two of those effects only which he boasts he 〈◊〉 and no Church which he Condemns for false can produce I charge him to do it if he will not prove himself a MEER PRETENDER and VAIN-BOASTER speaking high swelling words like them in Jude But this Man is very timerous I I perceive he would do it with Caution enough though so silly that he makes himself Ridiculous by it 1. Where did the Apostles or the Churches ever make such a Proviso in their producing the Testimony and Power of God Did they not do it before all and in the presence of Envious and malicious Spirits as well as others and left them to judg as it had operation upon them And 2. May not the Baptists say so and make this Proviso as well as you that they will not admit of prejudiced and envious Spirits to be their Judges or Witnesses in these matters and then no doubt they will be able to produce as many such effects as the Quakers Oh silly and absurd But 3. well G. produce those effects and that Power thou talkest of in W.P. however and I am contented with thee for this time that you shall not admit of Envious or Prejudiced Spirits to Judg of it but produce it that others may behold it though not Judg of it or wilt thou say that there 's not one person in all England except Quakers but what are Envious and Prejudiced Spirits Poor Evasion 12. As for them which thou sayst in whose Consciences there is a Record many of which were gathered out from Baptists and other Churches They say such are but Apostates from their Church and some such you have had in your Church which you call Apostates when they leave you and go to other Churches so that all this is nothing for proof of the thing nay several of your grand Prophets so once esteemed among some of you for true Prophets of the Lord did and have left you Witness CHARLES BAYLY JOHN PARROT c. and the Baptists have gathered amongst them several out of other Churches as well as you and what then The Baptists may tell you that if the Quakers see no such thing amongst them as the Blessed Operation and effect of the Power and Ministry of Christ Jesus That is because the Quakers have not honestly made Tryal b●t stood in Prejudice and gainsaying as many did against Christ the Apostles and Primitive Church of old and what can the Quakers say to it ONLY DENY IT and so may the Baptists Besides the Baptist Churches have this to say for themselves which you have not being you have denied and disowned it viz. They own the Holy Scriptures for the Rule of their Faith and Practice and pretend to no such extraordinary immediate Inspirations and Revelations as you do 13. But above all you ought not you cannot in good Conscience complain against others for Questioning whether you are Christians you having first not only Questioned others but pronounced them all both Ministers and People and Professors also unchristian See G.F. Professors Catechism his very first words are come you UNCHRISTIANS let us talk with you c. Therefore look at home and rebuke your selves first for this 14. And whereas G.W. p. 34. says That a foolish and Adulterous Generation seek a Sign 'T is true our Saviour did so upbraid the Jews and might very well they having had Sign upon Sign Miracle upon Miracle wrought by our SAVIOUR amongst them and such mighty Deeds almost innumerable wrought before them and yet to cry out for more when they saw so many from him was foolish but what is this to the Quakers who have not wrought one true Miracle nor produced so much as ONE such Sign notwithstanding all their Pretences among us that ever I heard of must we therefore be a foolish Generation that ask a Sign of them to prove such their pretences No surely it follows not I am certain from that Text and yet notwithstanding that the Jews were such an Adulterous Generation and had had so many Miracles wrought among them yet Jesus Christ said they should have one Sign more and that was doubtless the greatest Miracle and Sign of all By this Text then if the Quakers will stick close to it they may lawfully give this Adulterous Generation one Sign