Selected quad for the lemma: faith_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
faith_n	church_n	true_a	visible_a	19,269	5	9.3685	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A56660	A friendly debate betwixt two neighbours, the one a conformist, the other a non-conformist about several weighty matters / published for the benefit of this city, by a lover of it, and of pure religion.; Friendly debate between a conformist and a non-conformist	Patrick, Simon, 1626-1707.; Wild, Robert, 1609-1679.	1668 (1668)	Wing P798; ESTC R41393	117,976	250

use of it N. C. Some think it is a sufficient cause to separate in that there are such sinful mixtures tolerated among you and that your Congregations are miscellaneous Companies of all Gatherings and all sorts are admitted even to Sacramental Communion C. That 's the very Objection which your Ministers and Elders saw framed against them by the Separatists And what they answer to them we return to you First That this Charge is not true the Rule of the Church of England being as full and strict for Church-Members that shall come to Communion as that of the Assembly there cited pag. 133. which is this That they must be visible Sainst such as being of age do profess Faith in Christ and obedience to Christ according to the Rules of Faith aud Life taught by Christ and his appostles Secondly Suppose there were some sinful Mixtures say they at our Sacraments yet we conceive this is not a sufficient ground of a Negative much less of a Positive Separation The Learned Author forementioned tells us that Corruption in Manners crept into a Church is not a sufficient cause of Separation from it This he proves from Math. 23.2 3. and he adds also this Reason for it Because in what Church soever there is Purity of Doctrine there God hath his Church though overwhelm'd with Scandals And therefore whosoever separates from such an Assembly separates from the place where God hath his Church which is rash and unwarrantable The Church of Corinth had such a profane Mixture at their Sacrament as we believe few if any of our Congregations can be charged withal and yet the Apostle doth not perswade the Godly party to separate much less to gather a Church out of a Church N. C. What do you tell me of the Doctrine of a Forreign Divine C. They have made it theirs by approving what he says in their Book And besides they tell you there were many Godly and Learned Non-conformists of the last Age that were perswaded in their Conscience they could not hold Communion with the Church of England in receiving the Sacrament kneeling without Sin yet did they not separate from her Indeed in that particular act they withdrew but yet so as that they held Communion with her in the rest being far from a Negative much more from a Positive Separation from her Nay some of them mind the words even then when our Churches were full of sinful Mixtures with great Zeal and Learning defended them so far as to write against those that did separate from them who these Good and Learned men were they tell you in the Margin Mr. Cartwright Mr. Dod Mr. Hildersham Mr. Bradshaw Mr. Ball. N. C. Then we shall communicate with men in their sin● and we must not be led to that by the greatest Examples C. To prevent that they will advise you that if any Brother offend you you are not to separate from him for this is not the way to gain but to destroy his Soul but to tell him of it privately and in an orderly way to bring it to the Church And when you have done your Duty you have freed your Soul and may safely and comfortably communicate in that Church without Sin N. C. I perceive you are read in our Writers And trely you have now told me so much from them that I shall not have so hard an opinion of you as I had before And I hope this will preserve me from being guilty of the sin of Schism because the Nature of that consists in an open breach of Christian Love C. This will not serve your turn but you must come and joyn in Communion with us again For they tell you that as he who denies a Fundamental Article of the Faith is guilty of Heresie though he add not Obstinacy thereto to make him an Heretick So he that doth unwarrantably separate from the true Church is truly guilty of Schism though he add not Uncharitableness thereunto to denominate him a compleat Schismatick You may read the words if you will pag. 137. And afterward they tell you that to make a Rupture in the Body of Christ and to divide Church from Church and to set up Church against Church and to gather Churches out of true Churches and because we differ in some things therefore to hold Church-Communion in nothing this we think hath no warrant out of the word of God and will introduce all manner of confusion in Churches and Families and not onely disturb but in a little time destroy the power of Godliness Purity of Religion Peace of Christians and set open a wide Gap to bring in Atheism Popery Heresie and all manner of wickedness Thus they And how fast all this is a doing by your means who now will have no Communion with us in any thing because we differ in some things is apparent to all the world For the love of God and of the Church nay of your own Families consider of it in time and repent that so they may not be brought to utter Confusion but the Gap may be stopt which you have opened too wide already to Atheism Irreligion and all the rest of the Wickedness which comes powring in it self upon us Do not continue that Separation any longer which you have rashly begun lest you be found guilty of that very thing your selves which you condemned so much in others and profess is by all good men to be abhorred Read what I have now said over and over again and seriously lay it to heart lest your own Books be opened at the day of Judgement and Sentence be pronounced against you out of them Nay desire your Ministers to read it and to expound the reason to you why they should ssparate now more than Mr. Dod Mr. Hildersham Mr. Ball and such like did heretofore Intreat them to let you know how they excuse thewselves from the guilt not only of withdrawing themselves from our Communion which they call Negative Schism but also of making an head against us and drawing themselves into a distinct and opposite Body and setting up a Church against a Church which they call Positive and Schism by way of Eminency Ask them which of the four Causes of Separation they alledge to make their Departures from us necessary What we have done that should make it unlawful for them to communicate with us or rather How we have separated our selves from Jesus Christ and made him disown us If they be not able to give you very good satisfaction in this and in all the rest I hope you see what you are to do according to their own Advice and Counsel N. C. I suppose they will say that they are persecuted which will justifie their separation C. I cannot imagine what they should pretend unless it be this But bid them shew you what hath befalen them that should deserve that name And likewise shew that the Persecution is grievous nay intolerable for else they have told you it will not warrant

Spirit and though he was killed yet he was raised again from the dead by it and after that he sent the Spirit upon his Apostles who thereby demonstrated that he was the Son of God with power Which are all reasons for my belief and if you have any other I would gladly hear them or know whether you believe without any Reason at all N.C. These are Spiritual Reasons C. I like your Language very well only remember that these are the Divinest Reasons which cannot be resisted For thus our mind argues with it self That which God testified by voices from Heaven and by a world of Miracles is to be believed that Jesus is his Son he did in this manner testifie therefore we are to believe that he is God's Son N.C. Who taught you to reason on this fashion C. Is this such a mighty business that you wonder at We are taught continually to give our selves these reasons why we should believe And methinks it is the most powerful preaching in the world For if I believe firmly that Jesus is the Son of God is risen from the dead and will come to judg the world how can I chuse but obey him with great care and constancy N.C. You say true But me thinks there is more Spiritual Preaching than this C. What should that be N.C. To preach the great Misteries of the Gospel C. Is not this the first great Mystery of Godliness God manifested in the flesh 1 Tim. 3.16 and is not this the next that he was justified in or by the Spirit which we give as a proof that he was manifested in the flesh Read the rest and then come and hear our Minister and you shall find them a I unfolded one time or other in a plain and ample manner N.C. These methinks are no such great Mysteries C. No sure you know not the meaning of the word Mystery but live onely upon phrases Was not this a Secret kept in the breast of God from ages and generations N.C. Yes C. Then it is a Mystery and the chief and first of all That God hath sent his Son into the World As for the ends of his sending him if those be they you call Mysteries they are as much declared among us as among you and perhaps a great deal more N.C. What do you mean C. I mean his dying for our Sins and rising again for our Justification and Intercession on our behalf at God's right hand I dare say these are as well opened to us as ever they have been to you N.C. I am glad to hear it for I alwayes thought there was little but Legal Preaching among you C. You mean we are taught to obey the Commands of Christ N.C. No the Doctrine of Good works is always sounding from your Pulpits C. These are the same thing for no other Works are taught us but such as Christ injoyns As for the Works of Moses his Law we never hear of them but only that they do no longer oblige us If we did I assure you we should call our Preachers Legal as much as you can do N.C. But I am afraid the insisting so much upon Good works is Legal C. You should rather fear that the Preaching of them so little leads men to Libertinism N.C. We are tender least the Grace of God should be impeached by putting men so much upon Doing C. Then it seems you think it peculiar to the Spirit of the Law to be very sollicitous about Doing well N.C. Yes C. Now I see you are in very gross darkness For certainly both the Law and the Gospel put men upon doing but not the same things nor with the same disposition N.C. Explain your self for methinks you are in the dark C. The Gospel give us better rules of life and gives us power to do according to them with a more willing and chearful mind than the Law did N.C. Where then is grace all this while C. It was the Grace of God that gave us the Gospel and it is his Grace that accepts of our repentance and obedience after we have offended him which pardons also and passes by our failings and imperfections when we sincerely design and study to obey him in all things N.C. You do not think then that you can deserve any thing of him C. No how should we seeing we are his Creatures and owe him all the Service we can do him Which makes us believe that if we had been born in innocence and continued so till this time we could have merited nothing much less can we pretend to it now that we are Sinners N.C. But you think Good works are necessary to our Justification C. Who ever doubted of it that understood himself N.C. That doth many a Godly Divine whom I have heard say that they are not requisite to our Justification but only to our Salvation C. I am loath to say that those Godly Divines did not mind what they said because I ought in modesty to suspect my own Understanding rather than theirs But to me it seems a strange thing that they should not observe Salvation to be nothing else but our final and absolute justification at the day of Judgment And then I am sure our Saviour saith he will examine what men have done and according as he finds it good or bad pronounce the sentence of Absolution or Condemnation Read the 25. of S. Matthew from the 31. verse to the end N.C. What do you conclude from thence C. What That if good works be necessary to our Justification then when we come before the Judge they are necessary now to the beginning of our Justification or if you would have me speak other words to enter us into the state of Justified persons N.C. How can that be since we are justified by Faith only C. Very well For it is not an idle ineffectual Faith which justifies us but that which works by love to our Saviour and love is the keeping of his Commandements N.C. I see one shall not want rational discourse at your Church as you call it but methinks I nevr found that life and power in your Ministry which I have in ours C. I told you before that I find nothing so powerful as the Christian Doctrine rationally handled And if the Faith of Christ be not so preached as I now told you for my part I feel no force in the loudest words that I hear but am apt to say as the man did when he shear'd his Hogs Here is a great deal of noise and little wool N.C. My meaning was That ours move my affections very much and yours stir them not at all C. I have been taught that there are two wayes to come at the Affections One by the Senses and Imagination and so we see people mightily affected with a Puppet-play with a Beggar 's tone with a lamentable Look or any thing of like nature The other is by the Reason and Judgment when the evidence of any Truth convincing the Mind engages the