you all dayes to the end of the world Therefore if they charge the Catholick Roman Church with Error they must say that either Christ was not of power to keep his Church from straying or that he wanted fidelity to make good his word Mat. 5.14 You are the light of the world A City that is set on an hill cannot be hid Mat. 16.19 Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven I pray name me the Church that was commonly counted the true Christian Church in which you remained and from which you are not departed Mat. 16.18 The Church cannot fail being builded upon a Rock nor needs no new Masons to rebuild her again 1 Tim. 4.1 St. Paul saith Certain will depart from the faith They went from us Whether did the Roman Church go from any other known Church or did any other go from her Satisfie your self and me in this I pray you Testimonies of the Fathers for the See of Rome THe Names of the Twelve Apostles are these the first Simon who is called Peter c. In which place Divine Epiphanius saith De Epiph. in Ancoratu That God knew the thoughts of hearts knoweth also who is worthy to be placed in the first place he hath chosen Peter that he might be the Head of his Diseiples St. Augustine saith of Peters Successors De Aug. contra Epist Parmenioni L. 1. c. 2. to the sitting in the Chair of the Roman Church the whole Christian world is subject Also Augustine elsewhere Aug. Epist 162. In the Roman Church alwayes flourished the Sovereignty of the Apostolical Chair The same in another place Number saith he the Priests of that same seat of St. Peter and see which of the Fathers succeed him for he is the Rock which the proud gates of Hell do not overcome St. Ambrose Rome saith he hath the principality of Apostolical Priesthood The Contents CHAP. I. Proving That a true visible Church may fall away CHAP. II. Of the Nature and kinds of Apostasie and of the Apostasies of the Church of Rome CHAP. III. Of the Nature of Heresie CHAP. IV. Of the Heresies of the Church of Rome eight particulars instanced CHAP. V. Of the Nature of Schism and of the Schisous of the Church of Rome both within her self and from other Churches CHAP. VI. Some places of Scripture for the inerrability of the Church of Rome answered CHAP. VII Of humane Testimonies for and against the Church of Rome CHAP. VIII An Appendix for the further illustration of some things which are but briefly hinted in the former Chapters A DEFENCE Of the Protestant Christian Religion against POPERY In Answer to a Discourse Intituled Of the one onely and singular onely one Catholick and Roman Faith CHAP. I. Proving That a true visible Church may fall away TO pass by the Rhetorick of the Title and the aptness of the phrase of singular onely one as an emphatical addition to the one onely and the consistence between Roman and Catholick and between singular and Catholick or universal How and in what respects of reason and what senses may be thought upon wherein the same thing may be called both Roman and Catholick both singular and universal The Discourse it self begins with unconuected Quotations of several choice portions of Holy Scripture And indeed so far as there is a cordial adherence and subjection of heart unto that rule among different parties and persuasions it will through the grace of Christ produce either union of Judgement or at least union of Brotherly affection and forbearance of love but what esteem the Church of Rome hath for the Holy Scriptures is well known She doth not subject her 〈◊〉 unto them And though you in this Discourse de Quote them as your Writers sometimes do yet if you be a true Roman Catholick it is not with any intent to subject your Church upto the Scripture and to advance the Scriptures above your Church but onely to deal with Hereticks as you call them at their own Weapons and to use the Scripture as a stepping-stone whereby to mount up your Church into the Throne of her pretended Supremacy and Inerrability as one would use a stirrup to get into the saddle wherein nevertheless your means hath an inconsistency with your end as will further appear before we come to a close of this Debate Your Argumentation from the Scriptures you recite begins thus DISCOURSE Now I hope it will not be deemed but that the Church of Rome was once a most pure excellent flourishing and Mother-Church ut supra Rom. 1. ANSWER It will not be denyed but is readily granted by us That there was once a True Church in Rome that is a Congregation of saithful men wherein the pure Word of God was Preached and the Sacraments duly ministred according to the Ordinance of Christ which is the description of the visible Church in the Thirty nine Articles Artic. 19. And that this Church which was in Rome might be instrumental as Churches in populous Cities often are to propagate the Faith and plant Churches in other places is not improbable But that she had any superlative Purity or any motherly Power and Authority over and above other Churches is part of the thing in Question between her and us The Church of Corinth the Church of Ephesus of Thessalenica of Smyrna of Philadelphia were once pure flourishing Churches as well as the Church of Rome What may be truly said of her may be truly said of all other Gospel Churches in their first plantation and constitution by the Apostles yet it doth not follow That ever they were Mother-Churches in your sense or that because they were pure at first that therefore they are so still for visible Churches may degenerate and apostatize though the Mystical Church that is such as are in Christ by the spirit of saving Faith cannot wholly fall off from him yet such as are in him onely by external and visible profession may Jer. 2.21 I had planted thee a noble vine wholly a right seed how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto me How is the faithful City become an Harlot It was full of judgment righteousness lodged in it but now murtherers Isa 1. 21. Whereupon a Church thus forsaking God God may forsake them He may discovenant and un-church a people and give them a Bill of Divorce and withdraw the signs and tokens of his love and presence He may break the staffe of beauty and cut it asunder that he may break the Covenant he hath made with all the people He may also break the other staffe of bands and brotherhood between Judah and Israel Zach. 11.10 14. He may give them a Bill of Divorce Jer. 3.8 When for all the causes whereby back-sliding Israel committed Adultery I had put her away and given her a bill of divorce yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not God may say unto a people Le-ruhamab and Lo-ammi I
will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel for ye are not my people and I will not be your God Hos 1.6 Plead with your mother plead for she is not my wife neither am I her husband Hos 2.2 God may remove the candlestick out of its place Rev. 2.5 You see in all these Scriptures what the Lord hath threatned and done to other Churches in dayes of old which as it utterly overthrows any such imagination That a True Church cannot fall away so it shews That your Church claims such a priviledge as never any Church enjoyed Go to Shiloh where I set my name at first Jer. 7.12 14. Go to Jerusalem and see what God hath done unto it for the wickedness of his people Israel Never any Church enjoyed such a priviledge as yours pretendeth to of Indefectibility and Impossibility of losing their Church estate and priviledges It was Christs own threatning to the Jewes The kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a Nation bringing forth the fruits thereof Matth. 21.43 Yea the Lord hath denounced the like Threatnings and brandished the same flaming Sword against the Church of Rome in particular and that from this very instance and example of the Jewish Church before mentioned Kem. 11.17 18 19 20 21 22. And if some of the branches were broken off and thou being a wild Olive tree wert grassed in among them Boast not against the branches which your Church doth against all the Churches in the World pretending to such transcendent priviledges and prerogatives above all other Sister-Churches But if thou boast thou bearest not the root but the root thee Thou wilt say the branches were broken off that I might be graffed in Well because of unbelief they were broken off and thou standest by faith Be not high-minded but fear This is written to Her that saith She cannot erre For if God spared not the natural branches take heed lest be also spare not thee Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God on them which fell severity but towards thee goodness if thou continue in his goodness otherwise thou also shalt be out off You see he threatneth Her with cutting off And he hath executed these his righteous Threatnings because She hath not continued in his goodness therefore he hath cut Her off and given Her a bill of Divorce having declared Her in the Scriptures of Truth to be Babylon and Her Head Antichrist even Babylan the Great the Mother of Harlots a monstrous Beast the principal object of all the vyals of his wrath And her Head a false Prophet a Star fullen from Heaven a persecuting Horn wearing out the Saints of the most High as it is written in these and the like Scriptures Daniel 7. and Dan. cap. 11. vers 36 c. 2 Thess 2. 1 Tim. 4.1 c. And it is the chief scope of the Book of the Revelation to discover and reveal Antichrist in every Chapter from the sixth to the twentieth This is something that doth some way concern this great Apostasie in all which Scriptures both of the Old and New Testament She may read as it were the Letters of her Divorce The Lord who was Her Husband having published them and left them upon Record to all the Churches that they may take notice that She is not his Wife nor he Her husband and that they may do as is written Revel 18 4. Come out of her my people that ye be not partakers of her sins and that ye receive not of bet plagues And accordingly we for our parts in obedience to this command have protested against Her and are come out from Her and our defence must be without shifts and subterfuges by making good the charge against Her What can She say for Her self How will She clear and vindicate Her self from all this fin and shame You attempt it under three Heads of Apostasic Haresie and Schism and I must follow you in your own method though it be none of the best But whether you took your Discourses hereof out of Fiat Lux for there they are verbatim there is more than a meer coincidence of matter or that Fiat Lux had learned them privately from you and then published them in Print suppressing your name I leave it to him and you to dispute that point and to your infallible Judge to determine it and judge between you Both he and you speak thus CHAP. II. Of the Nature and Kinds of Apostasie and of the Apostasies of the Church of Rome DISCOURSE This Church could not cease to be so but She must fall either by Apostasie Heresie or Schism ANSWER THis Enumeration is very defective and confused in that it makes Apostasie one particular species or kind of falling away whereas Apostasie and falling away is the same thing the one being a Greek word and the other English for Apostasie is contrary to the True Christian Religion which is the tying of man to God again from re and ligo after his fall in the bonds of Faith and Love or obedience of Love The Scripture everywhere makes these the two parts of True Religion 2 Tim. 1.13 Hold fast the form of sound words which thou hast heard of me in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus 1 Tim. 3.9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience Hence therefore there be two wayes of Apostasie viz. either from the Faith of the Gospel by fundamental ignorance and heresie and unbelief or from Gospel-obedience which is as large as the rule thereof of which David saith Thy Commandments are exceeding broad Psal 119.96 Therefore under this head comes Idolatry Superstition Schism Witchcraft Perjury Persecution Sedition Murther Whoredom Theft Equivocation c. Men may Apostatize and fa'l away from God by making shipwrack of the faith and by putting away a good conscience 1 Tim. 1.19 The Apostle speaks of some who profess they know God but in werks they deny him being abominable and disobedient and unto every good work reprobate Titus 1.16 But this kind of Apostasie by evil works and scandalous sins is omitted and forgotten which is another Error in your distribution though it is that which your Church and Popes are deeply guilty of notwithstanding all your boastings of your good works and merits and supererogations with God The sixth Trumpet instanceth in Idolatries Murthers Sorceries Fornications Thefts as Sins that do abound among you Revel 9. ult And all Histories bear witness to it The corruption of Life as well as Doctrine was so great before the Protestant Reformation so many the offences abuses and scandals and such the degenerated notoriety of them that as it was the common desire of Sober men in Luthers time that there might be a free and general Council in order to a general Reformation of the Church which all men observed to be wofully degenerated So there were Nine Select Cardinals and Prelates of your own Church Câ—sil Delect Card. Praed De Emendanda
Ecclesia Ann. 1538. See the Appendix cap. 8. who did privately advise the Pope to Reform things amiss in a Paper they presented to him he having asked their Advice wherein they do attaque the very Popes themselves as the Heads of the Apostasie and Fountains of Corruption to the whole Church Principium horum malorum vide fuisse quod nonnulli Pontifices tui Praedecessores prurientes auribus c. Wherein they do their Popes no wrong for they speak no worse of them then your own Historians represent them nor then Pope Adrian the Sixth did acknowledge them to be In his Instructions to his Legate Cheregatus and in his Letter to the Princes of Germany Assembled in the Imperial Dyet at Norimberge 1523. He saith Sâ—imus in hac sede aliquot jam annis multa abominanda fuisse Fox's Acts and Mon. Vol. 2. pag. 78. Lampad Mellif Histor Part. 3. pag. 425. abusus in spiritualibus excessus in mandatis omnia denique in perversum mutata Se quidem non ignorare quid Scriptura docet nempe à Sacerdotibus populi iniquitatis originem scaturire ab ipsocapite Pontificio malum diffiuere in membra inferiora There have been saith he many years many Abominations in this See Abuses in Spirituals Excesses in Commands and all things perversly ordered The Fountain of Iniquity hath flowed from the Priests to the people as the Scripture saith and from the Pontificial Head the evil hath flowed into the inferiour members Thus he who as you say could not erre in judgment If a man would choose a Religion on purpose for the gratifying of his lusts Sir Walter Raleigh saith He knows none like Popery You have so many wayes to dispense with your Consciences and to indulge Sinners a licentious liberty to take their swinge in their lusts Your last swarm of Locusts the Jesuites have made it their business to corrupt all Morality as is to be seen at large in the Book called The Mystery of Jesuitism Moreover there is yet a third oversight in your Enumeration over and above both the former for as a Church which was once true and pure may cease to be so by such backslidings as have been instanced on her part so she may cease to be at all by righteous and destroying Judgments on Gods part which is also the case of the Old Church of Rome Providence having cut them off by the Sword of the Goths and Vandals and other Northern Nations about 400 years after Christ as he did the ten Tribes by the Assyrians of old and he hath substituted another people and language in their Land and place viz. those we call Italians as he did the Samaritans in the Land of Israel And as then so now the Successors are worse and further off from God than their degenerate Predecessors whom they saw the Lord destroy and cut off before their eyes Now suppose the Samaritans of old had pleaded a Plea not unlike yours viz. thus The Israelites were a true famous flourishing Church in the dayes of Moses and Joshuah and in the dayes of David and Solomon therefore we Samaritans are so now The Answer is easie You are neither of the same Religion no nor yet so much as the same people for they were Israelites but ye Samaritans So here What though there was in the dayes of Paul a Gospel Church of Romans at Rome though so far as appears not very great or numerous in those dayes but that ever there was such a Church of Samaritans or Italians there a pure Church there since the Roman people were cut off and their Language ceased to be a Mother-tongue and the Italian came in place Hoe tibi incumbit demonstrandum prove this if you can Alas the True Church is dead and gone from thence above 1000 years ago and a monstrons Beast with Ten crowned Horns is risen up instead thereof But you proceed to the first Head of your Distribution thus DISCOURSE Apostasie is not only a Renouncing of the Faith of Christ but of the very Name and Title of Christianity No man will say That the Church of Rome bad ever such a fall or fell thus ANSWER You thus restrain the word Apostasie to the grossest and deepest degree thereof that so you may the better defend your Church from the guilt of this sin But there is no necessity so to restrain it for there may be deep Apostasie from God under a name and outside profession of Religion It is written of the Church of Sardis Revel 3.1 Thou hast a name that thou livest but art dead Neither the Scripture nor the original signification of the Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifies a falling away nor the common and ordinary use of it requires that there be in it a Renouncing of the very Name and Title of Christianity It is used in sundry places of Scripture where no such Restraint is intimated as Acts. 21.21 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thou teachest the Jews to forsake Moses And concerning Antichrist 1 Tim. 4.1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Some shall apostatize or depart from the faith And again 2 Thess 2.3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 except there come a falling away first And ver 7. This Apostasie is called A Mystery of Iniquity Therefore it shall not be an open total professed Apostasie but partial and palliated over with fair umbrages and plausible pretensions else why is it called A Mystery of Iniquity and Mystical Babylon Nor do you indeed your own selves alwayes use the word Apostasie onely in that gross sense for you scruple not to bestow the title of Apostate as well as Heretick upon Luther and the Protestant Churches though neither he nor we ever did nor through grace ever will Renounce the Name and Title of Christianity Cyprian warning the Saints and people of God in his time to take heed of spiritual and sitbtile Delusions Cypr. De Vnitate Ecclefia open and professed persecution being not their only danger He sheweth how Sathan perceiving that by the large diffusion and spreading of Gospel-light Pagan Idolatry and their Temples were much forsaken Excogitavit novam fraudem ut sub ipso Christiani nominis titulo fallat Incautos He hath bethought himself of a new deceit whereby to mislead unwary Souls under the very Name and Title of Christianity Sathan saith he transforming himself into an Angel of light and suborning his Ministers as Ministers of righteousness bringing night for day Antichristum sub vocabulo Christi Antichrist under the name of Christ The Church of Israel in the time of her Apostasie did not Renounce the very Name and Title of Jehovah but they did worship and swear by the Lord and by Malcham too Zephan 1.5 So those mungrel Samaritans 2 Kings 17.33 41. They professed Ezra 4.2 We seek your God as you do as fair a pretension as any your Church can make And in Christs time they had some confused notions and expectations of the Messiah John 4.29
A DEFENCE Of the Protestant Christian Religion against POPERY In Answer to a Discourse of a Roman Catholick WHEREIN The Manifold Apostasies Heresies and Schisms of the Church of ROME as also the Weakness of Her Pretensions from the Scriptures and the Fathers are briefly Laid open By an English Protestant Frederic Secundus Germ. Imp. Roma diu titubans longis Erroribus acta Corruet ac Mundi desinet esse Caput In Heresies long Chace Rome stumbling shall Lose the Worlds Headship and to Ruine fall Printed in the YEAR M.DC.LXXII Advertisements TO THE READER IT is thought needless to trouble the Reader with a Narrative of the Transactions or with Copies of the Letters that have passed about this Affair or with the Names of the Persons concerned therein or lastly with the Motives and Providences which have invited in this juncture of time to the publishing this Defence of our Religion against Popery The Romanists Discourse is prefixed and published wholly and intirely by it self over and beside what is repeated of it in the Answer To the Answer there be some Additions for the Readers further help and for the further illustration of some things a brief intimation whereof might be presumed sufficient to the Romanist himself he being one of their Learned men in Holy Orders amongst them And whereas the Author of this Answer and Defence in a Letter to the person that called him to this Work did together with it express his own Sentiments thereof it is judged convenient instead of any further Preface to communicate them out of the said Letter wherein he saith I Have received your Letter and I have perused Mr. K. his Discourse which he challengeth our Divines to Answer And whereas you have pitcht upon me to do it because as your Letter Expresseth being the Cause of God you durst not Trust it in every hand As I have reason to acknowledge the great respect and value you are pleased to put upon me so withall I must needs own my own unworthiness and insufficiency for this or any other good word or work It is free Grace I have been depending and looking up unto for help from whence alone I have had it and it is the same free Grace that must bless what is said and bring it home with power I have sent you herewith an Answer to his Paper The Civilities you have done to him which I see himself in his Letter to you doth ingenuonsly acknowledge may tend I hope to let him see That it is our Religion to do good to all and that we desire to do good Works though not to be justified by them Let me have a part in your Remembrances at the Throne of Grace to which I Recommend you and yours which is all at present from Your most humble Servant in the Lord S. M. DVBLIN July ult 1670. A Discourse OF A ROMAN CATHOLICK Of the one onely and singular onely one Catholick and Roman Faith ONe Lord one Faith one Baptism one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in us all Eph. 4.5 6. Malac. 2.10 First I give thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for you all for that your faith is manifested in all the world Rom. 1.8 I desire also to see you that I may impart unto you of spiritual grace to confirm you that is to say to be together comforted in you which together is your faith and mine ibid v. 11. 12. That now we may not be children wavering up and down and carried about with every wind of doctrine in the wickedness of men in deceit to the circumvention of errour Ephes 4.14 Be not carried with various and strange doctrines for it is a very good grace to settle the heart Hebr. 13.9 Also I do not pray for them only but likewise for these which will believe through their word in me that all may be one as your Father and I and I in you that also they in us may be one that the world may believe that you sent me Joan. 17. ver 20. Now I hope it will not be deemed but that the Church of Rome was once a most pure excellent flourishing and Mother Church ut supra Rom. 1. This Church could not cease to be so but she must fail either by Apostasie Heresie or Schism Rom. 16.17 I. Apostasie is not only a renouncing of the Faith of Christ but the very name and title of Christianity no man will say that the Church of Rome had ever such a fall or fell thus II. Heresie is an adhesion to some private and singular Opinion or Error in Faith contrary to the general and approved Doctrine of the Church III. If the Church of Rome did ever adhere to any singular or new Opinion disagreeable to the common received Doctrine First I pray satisfie me as to these particulars viz. IV. By what general Council was it ever condemned V. Which of the Fathers ever wrote against Her VI. Or by what Authority was she ever Reproved for it seems to me very incongruous that so great a Church should be condemned by every one that hath a wind to condemn Her VII Schism is a departure or division from the Vnity of the Church whereby the band and communion held with some former Church is broken and dissolved VIII If ever the Church of Rome divided Her self by Schism from any other body of faithful Christians or brake communion or went forth from the society of any elder Church I pray satisfie your self and me to these particulars IX First Whose company did she leave Secondly from what body did she go forth X. Where was the true Church which she forsook for it appears not a little strange to me That a Church should be accounted Schismatical when there cannot be assigned any other Church different from Her which from Age to Age since Christs time hath continued visible from whom she departed c. Conclusion If the Catholick Roman Church was once the true Church she still remained so and therefore they who have departed from Her are departed from the true Church and so are out of the way c. The usual colour of believing more or less than the Church alloweth is vain and erroneous inasmuch as that very Christ which stored Her with knowledge of Gods revealed Truth and with power to convey the same hath also endued Her with inerrability to convey the same justly without danger of miscarrying against Iguorance Mat. 13. 11. To you it is given to know the mysteries of heaven Mat. 5.14 Against darkness you are the light of the world John 14.16 Against error and falshood I will send unto you the Spirit of truth to remain with you for ever 1 Tim 3. Against weakness She is the pillar and ground of truth Mat. 16.18 Hell gates shall not prevail against her to make which good Christ called his eternal Father to his aid prayed him and was heard for his reverence Mat. 28.20 Behold I am with
They had learned to say our father Jacob as well as you can say Saint Peter John 4.12 So in like manner the Church of Rome though She hath not Renounced the very Name and Title of Christianity yet She is deeply guilty of Apostasie from God divers other wayes both in her Head and Members She is and may be called an Apostate Church as having fallen away from the Faith and Doctrine of the Gospel by fundamental Unbelief Ignorance and Herefie and from Gospel obedience by the most abominable profaneness of life by the grossest kind of sins and scandals against all the Ten Commandments concerning which you prudently forbear to say any thing but concerning the former head viz. Apostasie from the Faith Your Defence is this CHAP. III. Of the Nature of Heresie DISCOURSE Heresie is an adbesion to some private and singular Opinion or Error in Faith contrary to the general and approved Doctrine of the Church If Rome did ever adhere to any such Opinion c. By what General Council was it ever condemned Which of the Fathers ever wrote against Her Or by what Authority was She ever Reproved ANSWER This Description of Heresie and the Queries grounded thereupon as they are not agreeable either to the Scriptural or Ecclesiastical sense and use of the Word so they are indeed no better than a begging of the thing in question between you and us For you know we hold That the Rule whereby to judge of Heresie is the Scripture and not the Opinions of Churches of Fathers Mr. Gales Idea of Jansenism Histor dogmat Part. 2. Sect. 28. p. 157. or Councils Tertullian makes it the Badge of an Heretick to decline the Scriptures he saith They are Noctue Lucifugae Scripturarum Night Owls that do not love the light of that Sun yea some of your own Church who are the pars sanion thereof if yet they be of you have said That it is an Herefie to judge of Heresies without the Word of God So the Jansenists And the Reason why the generality of Papists are so desirous to derline the Scripture is because they are conscious to themselves that it is against them as Mr. White hath well observed 〈◊〉 of Brisom White 's way to the Church Sect. 7. Numb 8. Bristow Motiv ult Canus loc lib. 3. cap. 3. Confil. Episc Bononi Congreg Anno 1553. De stabilienda Roman Eccles Fol. 5. who teaching his Scholar how to deal with a Protestant 〈…〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 proud Heretick out of his weak and false Castle of unely Scripturs into the plain field of Traditions Miracles Councils and Fathers and then like Cowards They shall not stand Another Papist saith There is more strength is confine Hereticks in Traditions than in the Scriptures yea all Disputations with them must be determined by Traditions Those Reverend Fathers of your Church that met at Bononia by the Popes appointment to consult of the means for establishing of the Church of Rome or healing the Wound of the Daughter of Babel in the counsel they gave to Pope Julius the Third They do confess Certè vix umbram quandam retinemus in nostris Ecclesus ejus Doctrinae Disciplinae quae Apostolorum temporibus floruerunt prorsùs aliam accersivimus The truth is we searce retain a shadow in our Churches of that Doctrine and Discipline which flourished in the Apostles times but we have brought in altogether another There was no mention Fol. 2. say they for we may confess the Truth to your Holiness but it must he kept close either of Popes or Cardinals in the Apostles times nor of some years after There were no Monasteries nor Priors nor Abbots much less were there these Doctrines these Laws these Customs no nor that Empire which now we enjoy over several people and Nations They say further That the not studying the Canon Law and Sophistry and Metaphysicks c. Fol 5. But learning the Greek and Hebrew Tongues and examining Translations by the Greek and Hebrew verity hath been the cause and fountain of the late decay of the Church of Rome and of the deplorable state and condition of her Affairs at this day And finally which they reserve to the last place as the weightiest of all their ghostly counsels They advise That as little as may be of the Gospel Fol. penult be read amongst the people in their vulgar Tongue For hic ille in summa est liber qui praeter caeteros hasce nobis tempestates acturbines conciliavit quibus prope abrepti sumus For this is in brief That Book which above all others hath raised and brought upon us these storms and whirlewinds by which we are almost carried away headlong Thus speak they It appears by all this wherefore it is that you love not the Scripture even because it restifies against you For he that doth evil hateth the light and cometh not to the light lest his deeds should be reproved John 3.16 20. As to the word Heresie for your mistakes call upon me to open it a little if we look at the notation of it from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 capio eligo so it signifies any thing of choice or option as Galen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Methodical and the Empirical way of Physick when applyed to matters of Religion it imports in the largest signification any Sect or way of Religion that a man makes choice of whether true or false So the Sect 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Sadduces Acts 5.17 the Sect of the Pharisees Acts 15.5 called the most exquisite Sect of our Religion Acts 26.5 the Sect of the Nazarens Acts 24.5 the word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Herefie in all these places But it is frequently restrained by a Synecdothe to signifie a false Religion as some other words ex gr Tyrannus magnus c. which are commonly taken in deteriorem partem Thus Epiphanius seemeth to take it in his Book of Eighty Heresies where he numbers Barbarism Seythism Stoicism Platonism c. amongst Heresies But it is commonly restrained yet more by a further Synecdoche to such Errors as overthrow the Foundation and are obstinately maintained against Conviction by persons pretending in part to the True Religion and so we do not call Pagans Hereticks but Infidels This sense of the word seems to be grounded on 1 Cor. 3.10 11. and 2 Pet. 2.1 and Titus 3.10 11. where the Apostles do distinguish of Doctrines comparing some to Hay and Stubble yet retaining the true foundation But there is another sort which they call damnable Heresies or Heresies of perdition Soul-destroying Heresies the Assertors whereof are subverted or overturned 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from off the true foundation and self-condemned 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as sinning against their own light Now the written Word of God being the onely Rule of True Religion hence nothing ought to be rejected under the Notion of Heresie but what the Scripture doth
First Whose company did she leave Secondly From what body did she go forth Where was the true Church which she forsook And the same thing is repeated again a second and a third time in your Paper ANSWER You do here again as before in your description of Apostasie and Heresie describe the thing amiss that you may the better ward off the blow and deâ—â—â—â— your Church Not that we desire to strive with you about words but as they do involve erroneous and undue apprehensions of things Be it granted That Schism is a rent or a breach of that Unity that Christ hath appointed in his Church and so as Heresie denies the Faith Schism destroyes 〈…〉 of the Gospel but your description of it fails in 〈◊〉 I. There may be Schism in a Church within it self The Apostle several times useth this word in this Epistle to the Corinthians as 1 Cor. 1.10 and cap. 11.18 and cap. 12.25 I hear saith he that when you come together in the Church there be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 divisions or schisms among you Though that any of them did break off from the communion of the Church doth not appear but there were carnal contendings and strivings within and among themselves rending and tearing one another which the Apostle there calls Rents or Schisms II. There may be Schism from another Church contemporary and coexistent as well as from a Church praeexistent There is no necessity that it must be only from a former Elder Church yea an Elder Church may be guilty of Schism from a younger and from those that were her own Members if she break the bond of love and order with them by her own corruptions and persecutions It is the apostatizing persecuting Church that makes the rent and is guilty of the Schism and not the Reforming party who are driven out by them Now to apply these things a little to the Church of Rome she may be charged with Schism upon all these Accounts The plain truth is she is the most Schismatical Church in the World both within her self and in reference to other Churches also a the evidence whereof is so notorious that if I were a Roman Catholick I would tell you That it was very unhappily and unadvisedly done of you to mention this business of Schism in a Paper of Dispute offered by you to the Hereticks For first within her self Her intestine Schisms and Divisions have been so many that it would make this Paper swell into a Volume Bell Praef. in Libr. de Pontif to number them all up unto you It is Bellarmines own concession though he labours also to cover this nakedness with a Fig leaf That there were Schismata gravissima plurima ipsorum interase Romanorum Pontificum Very grievous and very many Schisms Voet. Disp Vol. 2. Dis 43. p. even of the Popes of Rome amongst themselves Voetius refers you to Mayer's Book of the Six and twenty Schisms of the Church and See of Rome 689. Onuphr Roman Pontif. Cardinal ad Annum Christi 1378. but your own Onuphrius reckons up no less than Twenty nine Schisms in the Church of Rome And of the Twenty eighth in the time of Clement the seventh he saith it was Pessimum diuturnum Schisma omnisque Res-publica Christiana divisa A most wicked and long lasting Schism for it lasted as he saith no less than One and fifty years together and the whole Christian world was divided by it the French Spaniards and others following Clement the seventh but Germany Hungary England and part of Italy followed Urban the sixth Moreover Anno Christi circiter 897. c. to mention another instance among so many the Schisms were so violent between Pope Stephanus and Pope Formosus and their Successors That they did nothing but do and undo Ratifie and Rescind the Acts and Decrees of one another Stephanus for his part he Rescinds the Decrees of Formosus and like a quiet and peaceable man digs him up out of his Grave cuts off his Fingers c. But Pope Romanus and Theodorus and John the Tenth disannulled the Acts of Stephen and approved Formosus Yet after these comes Sergius the third who digs up Formosus his dead body once more cuts off his Head casts it into Tyber Rescinds his Decrees Now the Question is Which of them shall we believe for Bell. de Pontif. lib 4. cap. 12. they were all infallible Bellarmine determines That Stephanus and Sergius were in the Error and so like an Heretick he takes upon him to judge the Pope And as you have Popes and Antipopes so you have Councils against Councils for instance V. Calvis Chrâ—nol ad annum 1437. your Councils of Constanoe and Basil have defined That the Council is above the Pope Quod nisi est quis unquam Romano Pontifici quamvis improbissimo contradicerei Which if it be not so Who would ever gainsay the Pope though never so wicked say they of Basil in their Bull Jan. 17. 1438. But Pope Leo and the Council of Lateran have determined the contrary And here again Bell. de Conciliorum authoritate lib. 2. cap. 19. de Eceles militante lib. 3. cap. 16. Bellarmine takes upon him to determine between the dissenting Popes and Councils and plonounceth that of Basil as soon as Antichrist was angry with them to be but Conciliabulum c. But in the mean time your boastings of a Supreme Infallible Visible Judge amongst you to end your Controversies are to much purpose unless Bellarmine be he but he is dead and who succeeds him in the Office I cannot tell And I wonder What became of your uninterrupted Succession all this while during all these Broyles and Schisms And where is your Pâ—â—câ— and Unity among your selves When Bellarmine almost upon every Controversie reports the contrary Opinions of your own Doctors some of which he condemns very severely Voet. Disp part 2 inventar Eccles Roman p. 689. I have not told them how many they be but Voetius saith He mentions no less than Two hundred contrary Opinions amongst your own Writers which your Infallible Judge as it seemeth hath not determined to this day I might here mention as signal Instances thereof The sharp Contests and Digladiations between your Dominicans and Franciscans and Jesuites about the power and interests of Free-will and Free-grace and the influence thereof into mans Conversion and Predestination and about the immaculate Conception of the blessed Virgin Mary about which your Trent Council durst not give a clear definitive sentence but speaks ambiguously like the Delphick Oracles of old As also the Contests between your French Sorbonists and your Hildebrandine Parasites of the Court of Rome about the pragmatick Sanction of the Council of Basil the Liberties of the Gallican Church the power of Popes in reference to Councils and Magistrates c. Nor indeed do I know any one point wherein you differ from the Protestants wherein you are agreed amongst
your selves Your very Council of Trent though approved by the Pope yet is rejected by the French Papists unto this day This is your peace and unity amongst your selves whereof you use to boast so much Nothing forsooth but Mufick and Harmony made up of Discords Secondly As to other Churches There be Churches both elder and younger and contemporary with the Roman and some of her own sounder Members with all which she hath broke communion And they are not fugitivi but fugati it is not they but she that hath made the breach because she doth impose such conditions of communion upon them as they cannot lawfully submit unto viz. To receive all her Errors and submit their Consciences to her and her Head as Infallible and Supreme If we look back to the first times of your Apostasie there were first all the Churches and Christians without the bounds of the Roman Empire as in India Perfia c. Secondly the Grecian Churches which were one half of that Empire one Leg of Daniels Image Dan. 2. which took the Alarum very early and refused the primacy of Rome and stood upon their guard against her Thirdly the African Churches did the same Fourthly All those suffering Churches and Christians that were oppressed under and by the Papacy as living within the reach of the Popes power Or if we consider the present state of things at this day and in this Age wherein we live there be very many with whom the Church of Rome hath broke communion As for instance All the Christians in Asia and Africa except some late Colonies of Papists All the Grecian Churches in Europe All those that are under the Patriarchs of Constantinople Antioch Alexandria Jerusalem Russia and Muscovia Also the Protesant Churches and Kingdoms and many that lie hid under the Dominions of Popish Princes who sigh and mourn and groan under the Abominations of the Papacy Sir Edwin Sands Sir E S. Europae Speculum or view of the state of Religion in Western parts pag. 76. 187. who was a great Traveller and a very intelligent person his computation in Q. Elizabeths time was That about one half of the Popes Dominions were fallen from him and become Protestants five of the Ten horns have begun to hate the Whore And you know how that since those dayes you have not been gaining but rather losing ground insomuch that when all Accompts are cast up both of those who were never subject to the Pope and those who have shaken off his yoke it will be found That the Church of Rome is not a third part of the Christian world All these Companies she hath left and gone out from all these Bodies and Societies of Christians hence therefore 1. It is a strange Question for you to ask Whose Company she hath left For you cannot but know if you know any thing at all of these matters that there is a far greater number of Christians out of her Communion and Jurisdiction than are within it 2. This renders her assuming and monopolizing to her self the name and title of the Catholick Church in opposition to all other Churches out of her Communion not only false but extreamly vain and in plain terms ridiculous For is she the whole Catholick Church who is not a third part of it Or rather is not this a piece of Schismatical pride and arrogance in her the very same with the Donatists of old who did unchurch all others but themselves and so do you which is not the Spirit of the Gospel but rather an evidence against you that you have neither part nor lot in this matter and that your hearts are not right in the fight of God which are so full of the gall of bitterness and sharp censoriousness Ravn 6. Concluso Concl 5. pa. 687. It further confirms that which hath been long ago demonstrated unto you by that Learned Raynolds That the Church of Rome is not the Catholick Church nor yet a sound Member of the Catholick Church And so much for the Apostasies Heresies and Schisms of your Church The next thing in your paper is this CHAP. VI. Some places of Scripture for the Inerrability of the Church of Rome Answered DISCOURSE THe usual colour of believing more or less than the Church allows is vain and erroneous inasmuch as that very Christ that stored her with knowledge of Gods revealed Truth and with power to convey the same hath also endued her with Inerrability to convey the same justly without danger of miscarrying against Ignorance To you it is given to know the mysteries of heaven Matt. 13.11 Against darkness Ye are the light of the world Matt. 5.14 Against error and falshood I will send unto you the Spirit of truth to remain with you for ever John 14.16 Against weakness She is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim. 3. Hell-gates shall not prevail against her Matt. 16.18 c. ANSWER Now to examine the Contexture of this Discourse though something might be said both to the Grammar and Logick of it nor the soundness and sense of those distinctions you seem to make between Ignorance and Darkness for what is moral Darkness but Ignorance and Error and Falshood c. Your Scope is to assert the Authority and Inerrability of your Church as the supreme Rule of Faith and Obedience But what you mean by the Church whether Popes or General Councils you say not you know your Writers are divided about it But to the Scriptures you alledge we need not as you say we must but through the help of his grace we will not impeach either the power or faithfulness of Christ but there be three other things which we may truly and fitly say to you concerning those Scriptures 1. That you do not shew particularly where their pertinency lies or how you would apply them to the point you aim at they being in their plain and genuine sense most remote from it 2. That they do not prove Inerrability in those to whom they were spoken and intended for they are as applicable to every other Church yea to every true Believer as to the Church of Rome For every true Believer hath the Spirit of Grace and Truth dwelling in him and is inlightned thereby to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven but yet it doth not follow nor will you affirm That every true Believer that every godly Man and every godly Woman is infallible 3. We answer further That these Promises and Scriptures were not given to the Pope and Church of Rome there is no pretence nor colour for it How ill doth it become you who do deny the perseverance of true Believers to claim to your selves an interest in such promises that the Spirit shall remain with you for ever It was never said to the Pope Ye are the light of the world For he is indeed the Angel of Death the Messenger and Instrument of Darkness a Star fallen from Heaven who hath opened the bottomless pit and
Gospel Ministers and Gospel Churches both the one and the other may be called in a safe sense the pillar and ground of truth But what is this to the Church of Rome How ridiculous a reason were it saith Mr. Cartwright for the Apostle to exhort Timothy to walk circumspectly in the Church of Ephesus Cartwr in locum because the Church of Rome is thepillar and stablement of truth The Papists saith Calvin dum ad se transferunt hoc encomium improbe faciunt alienis se plumis vestiendo Nam ut evehatur Ecclesia supra tertium Coelum nego id totum ad eos ullomodo pertinere Calvin in loc Quinetiam locum presentem adversus eos retorqueo nam si Ecclesia columna est veritatis sequitur non esse apud eos Ecclesiam ubi non modo sepulta jacet veritas sed horrendum in modum diruta eversa sub pedibus calcatur When the Papists transfer this glory to themselves they do wickedly cloathing themselves with the feathers of other Birds For suppose the Church be extolled and lifted up above the Third Heavens I deny that any thing of all this excellency belongs in the least to them yea further I retort this place against them For if the Church be the Pillar of Truth then it follows that the Church is not amongst them where the Truth doth not only lie buried but is torn down and overthrown and trampled under foot in a fearful manner An hoc est vel aeuigma vel cavillum Paulus Ecclesiam non vult agnosci nisi in qua excelsa conspicua stat Dei veritas in Papatu nihil tale apparet sed disiectio tantùm ruinae ergo genuina Ecclesiae nota illic non extat Is there any difficulty or any cavilling in this Paul will not have any Church acknowledged but such as wherein the Truth of God stands on high conspicuous to the view of all men But there is no such thing to be seen in the Papacy but the overthrow and ruines of the Truth therefore there is no true note or mark of the Church to be found there The plain Truth is That Apostate Church and the Head thereof that is Babylon and Antichrist hath no right to any one promise in the Book of God but stands directly under all the Threatnings and Curses written therein because they have both added thereto and taken from it Revel 22.18 19. Indeed those Churches and those Souls have the best right to the promises that prize them most Therefore the Protestant Churches have a better right to them than the Church of Rome By the Protestant Churches I intend all that do subject themselves to the Scripture as the Rule of Faith and Life And by the Church of Rome all those that suffer the Pope to have dominion over their Faith for we do not judge every Individual in the external communion of that Church but onely such of them as have drunk down her deadly poyson What have they to do with the promises What have they to do with God to take his Covenant into their mouths Who do believe in a man that can lye and in a Church of men who may deceive and be deceived How much better and safer would it be for your eternal peace to cleave to the Scriptures which are the voyce of God and so to bottom and ground your Faith upon the truth and faithfulness of him that cannot lye then thus to ground it upon a man that shall dye and upon the sons of men that shall be made as grass For all flesh is as grass and all the glory of man as the flower of grass The grass withereth and the flower thereof fadeth away but the Word of the Lord endureth for ever And this is the Word which by the Gospel is preached unto you CHAP. VII Of Humane Testimonies for and against the See of Rome THat which remains of your Discourse is partly Quotations without so much as attempting to prove your interest in them of some parallel Texts with those before answered partly repetitions of those impertinent Queries Whether did the Roman Church go from any other known Church c Answered also before under the Head of Schism partly Humane Testimonies for the See of Rome for so you phrase it the Body of your Discourse having run upon this expression the Church of Rome the Title being the Roman Faith To your Humane Testimonies I would humbly offer three things to your serious consideration which I suppose may suffice to all you say or can say from the Fathers in whom you seem to repose your greatest confidence for the defence of your cause Consid 1. That you know we do not own the Fathers but the Scriptures onely as the Supreme Judge of Controversies Though we honour them as blessed Instruments in their Generation yet we know they were but men and not Apostles infallibly inspired and assisted by the Holy Ghost Yea we do ingenuously acknowledge That the darkness and inadvertency of the Fathers in some points did contribute and make way for the rise and growth of Popery They had their hands so full of other work partly from without in all their Conflicts both with Jews and Pagans both by writing and suffering while the Christian Princes also in the mean time were not idle but had their hands full in the Wars of Michael against the Dragon against the persecuting Pagan Emperors during that fourth Century And partly from within by those intestine mischiefs which through the malice and craft of Sathan were bred within the Churches own bowels such as Arrianism with all the Errors and Blasphemies accompanying and flowing from it against the Person and Natures of Christ and against his blessed Spirit As also Pelagianism wretchedly undermining the work of his Grace and Spirit in the effectual application of Christ and his redeeming Love to the Souls of his Elect. Donatism likewise at the same time dreadfully disturbing the peace and order and fellowship of the Gospel by dischurching and disbaptising all other Christians and re-baptising themselves whil'st othres in the mean time wereas much too large and loose as they too rigid The faithful Servants of Christ were thus assaulted in those dayes on every side over and beside the daily work of Teaching and Governing their respective Flocks and Churches All which did so severely call upon them for their deepest intentions and endeavours that as it rendred the work heavy upon the shoulders of the faithful Ministry in those conflicting times so truly to my narrow capacity it is no wonder if in the mean time the deep and subtile workings of the mystery of Iniquity in the Papacy did in a great measure escape their observation And the rather if we consider the disadvantage they were under both for want of Printing and of well regulated and formed Universities and Schools of the Prophets The Monastick Institutions at first as some have thought coming nearest and seeming to
Witnesses to this truth It was also in my thoughts to have noted something out of your own Writers concerning the Popish Circle I mean the maze of unbelief wherein they run round to prove the Scripture by the Church and the Church back again by the Scripture Like men drunk and giddy with the cup of the Wine of Astonishment and with the spirit of Delusion it being just with God to smite them with a vertiginous distemper of mind that they shall never come to any consistence to any settlement in the Faith who will not settle upon the true foundation and acquiesce in the Scriptures of Truth For as the fire devoureth the stubble and the flame consumeth the chaffe so their root shall be as rottenness and their blossome shall go up as dust because they have cast away the law of the Lord of Hosts and despised the word of the holy One of Israel Isa 5.24 And finally seeing you call so much for Humane Testimonies I had thought to have offered some which I think you will blush to read out of your own Writers concerning the Veneration you give to your Popes your Representative Christs and Vice-gods and yet withall concerning the hideous prophaneness of their Lives and their Errability yea their actual erring Errors damnably and fundamentally destructive of the Faith and all this out of your own approved Authors out of whom I have observed and collected a few things but these few are too many to be here inserted The Subject is so copious that it requires an intire Tractate by it self therefore must be deferred till some other occasion do present And in the mean time so long as Gregories praecursor Antichristi and so long as Bellarmines Tulissimum est remains upon Record among men you may shut your mouths and cease your boastings of Humane Testimonies I Have now according to the measure of Light and Grace received returned you an Answer to your Paper somewhat largely I confess being desired to answer it to the full but yet as briefly as I could yea omitting many things which might have been both truly and pertinently spoken I find that it hath been answered twice before by more Learned pens which as it renders this Labour of mine less necessary and which I think might have been spared had you not called with such renewed importunities for an Answer so it renders you the more without excuse for that now you have the Truth against one opposition confirmed to you in the mouth of Three Witnesses First by Mr. Baxter in his Key for Catholicks printed Anno 1659 who received a great part of this your paper in a Manuscript sent from Wolverhampton to Sturbridge and hath inserted it and confuted it in his Book before mentioned page 244. It hath been answered a second time by Dr. Owen in his Animadversions on Fiat Lux Cap. 2. page 59 c. and in his Vindication of his Animadversions Cap. 4. page 48. deinceps And yet now after two Answers in print you send the same words again such is the penury of your cause in a Manuscript to a person of Honour in this Kingdom of Ireland with a challenge to our Divines to answer it which hath produced and drawn forth this third Answer to it besides all that hath been written in former times as also of late by Dr. Stillingfleete Mr. Poole and others though not to this individual paper but upon occasion of other oppositions yet in defence of the same general Truth and Cause of Christ against Popery O that He who alone is able would vouchsafe to bless both those former and these present endeavours so as to undeceive and open your eyes and convince you by his Spirit of the Vanity of Vanities that is in these pretensions of Supremacy Inerrability and Indefectibility in your Church and Pope The Lord awaken you out of these golden Dreams before it be too late Yea I do believe through grace and am persuaded That he will yet do it by one means or other for such of you as do belong to the election of his grace The same free and sovereign grace that did pity that did undeceive and convince and conquer Paul when in his full career of blind Zeal and opposition is able to convince and over-power you Father forgive them for they know not what they do Now the Lord in mercy do it That your Faith may not stand hereafter in the wisdom of men but in the power of God CHAP. VIII An APPENDIX for the further Illustration of some things which are but briefly hinted in the former Chapters IN Cap. 2. of Apostasie and again in Cap. 3. of Heresie mention is made of counsel given by Papists to the Pope A Friend to whom the Answer was communicated in Manuscript made some Inquiry about it to whom a further Account was sent which because the same Inquiries are not unlikely to arise in the studious Readers mind is thought fit to be communicated I find there were two papers of Advice presented to the Pope in those dayes about the time of the Council of Trent for the help and support of the then declining Church of Rome both which give pregnant evidence against her of her corruption and departure from Apostolical and primitive purity The first to Pope Paul the Third in the Year 1538. by Nine select Cardinals and Prelates viz. Cardinal Contarenus Cardinal Peter Theatinus afterwards Pope Paul the Fourth Cardinal Sadolet Cardinal Reginald Poole of England c. The Title is Consilium Delectorum Cardinalium Praelatorum de emendanda Ecclesia This Novem-virale Concilium was sent by Nicholaus Cardinalis Capulanus to a Prince in Germany by whom it came to the hands of Luther and Sturmius and by their means was made publick It is mentioned and quoted by Espensaeus a Popish Bishop a Sorbenist in his Commentaries on Titus 1. It was extant in the Book of the Councils Tom 3. Concil Edit per Crab. Edit Colon 1551. But in all other Editions Pontificiorum furto fraude desideratur saith Mr. Crashaw who Reprinted it London 1609. These men do with something of Ingenuity acknowledge and advise to a Reformation of sundry enormous Abuses and Corruptions in the Church of Rome and they begin wisely and faithfully at the fountain Well-head telling the Pope plainly Principium horum malorum inde suisse quod nonnuili Pontifices tui Praedecessores prurientes auribus ut inquit Apostolus Paulus coacervarunt sibi magistros ad desideria sua non ut ab eis discerent quod facerè deberent Page 2. sed ut eorum studio calliditate inveniretur ratio quâ liceret id quod liberet Ex hoc fonte sancte pater tanquam ex equo Trojano irrupêre in Ecclesiam Dei tot abusus tam gravissimi morbi quibus nune conspicim is eam ad desperationem sere salutis laborasse The beginning of these Eviis say they hath been that some of the Popes your
Predecessors having itching ears as the Apostle Paul speaks have heaped up unto themselves Teachers according to their own desires Not that they might learn from them what they ought to do but that by their study and craft a way might be found out whereby it might be lawful to do what they list From this fountain holy father as from the Trojan horse have broke forth so many abuses into the Church of God and such grievous Diseases under which we now see her labouring almost unto desperation of recovery The Popes Infallibility it seems was no Article of their Faith Then they proceed to instance in sundry particulars Page 5. deâ—â—ceps as Caralessenes in the Ordination of Clergy-men putting men both ignorant and vicious into Holy Orders bestowing Benefices and Ecclesiastical promotions upon them Reservations of Pensions changing and chopping of Livings Impropriations Pluralities Non-residences Exemptions and Impediments laid upon Bishops in governing their Flocks and punishing of Sinners The great degeneracy and corruptions of Religious Orders Simony and filthy Lucre in the exercise of the Keyes The scandals between Monks and Nuns Vain Philosophy in Schools and Universities teaching Impiety whereas say they Ostenderent infirmitatem luminis naturalis in Quaestionibus pertinentibus ad Deum Page 12. They ought to shew the weakness of the light of Nature in disquisitions about the things of God They instance also Dispensations for Marriage within the degrees forbidden Page 16. absolving Simoniacks In hac etiam urbe meretrices ut matronae incedunt habitant etiam infignes aedes corrigendus bic turpis abusus In this City of Rome say they Whores go up and down as honourably as chaste Matrons and they dwell in sumptuous Houses this shameful abuse ought to be Reformed These are some of the main Heads of their Advice Tollantur say they obtestamur sanctitatem tuam Page 11. per sanguinem Christi quo redemit sibi Ecclesiam suam eamque lavit eadem sanguine toliantur hae maculae We do beseech and obtest your Holiness by the blood of Christ wherewith he hath redeemed his Church unto himself washing it with his own blood we beseech you let these spots and blemishes be taken away But the Pope would reform nothing but was like the deaf Adder which stoppeth her ear which will not hearken to the voyce of the charmers though they charm never so wisely We would have healed Babylon but she could not be healed forsake her and let us go every one into his own countrey for her judgment reacheth unto heaven and is lifted up even to the skies Psal 58.4 5. Jer. 51.9 The other counsel was given to Pope Julius the Third by three Bishops met at Bononia It is intituled Consilium quorundam Episcoporum Bononiae congregatorum quod de ratione stabiliendae Romanae Ecclesiae Julio 3. Pont. Mux datum est It is subscribed Bononiae Octob. 20. Anno 1553. Sauctitatis tuae servi creaturae devotissimae Your Holinesses most devoted servants and creatures Vincentius de durantibus Epise Thermularum Brixiensis Aegidius Falceta Episco Caprulanus Gerardus Busdagrus Episc Thessalonicensis It was first published by Vergerius after his conversion It is mentioned by Johannes Wolphius in his Memorabilia And lastly Re-printed at London out of Mr. Crashaws Library Anno 1613. These Advisers like meer carnal Polititians do observe horrid Degeneraties and Abuses but instead of counsels tending to Reformation they mend the matter so as to make it much worse their proposals aiming at no other scope but meerly how their sins and corrupt state which they love and like so well may be continued and preserved and how Light and Reformation may be kept out some of their words being rendred in English in the Answer above Chapter 3. But most of the Latin omitted for Brevities sake I shall here subjoin it with some more also of their own words for the Readers more ample satisfaction Thus then they speak Cum nos multum ac diu cogitavissemus quisnam esset gravissimae hujus controversiae status tandem hunc esse deprehendimus Lutherani Symboli Apostolorum Niceni Athanasii articulos omnes recipiunt confitentur Folio 1. Atque id verissimum est Neque enim inficiari oportet praesertim inter nos quod adeo verum esse omnes intelliginius Itidem Lutherani negant velle se aliam doctrinam admittere praeter unicam illam quae prophetas Christum Apostolos authores habet optarentque ut paucissimis illis contenti essemus Et priscas Ecclesias imitaremur nec de recipiendis ullis traditionibus cogitaremus Folio 2. quas non constat luce meridianâ clariuÌ„s fuisse à Domino nostro Jesu Christo abipsis Apostolis dictatas atque institutas Ita sentiunt adversarii nostri Nos contra seculi opinionem beatitudinis tuae volumus credi id quod in Decreto tertiae Sessionis Concilium Tridentinum statuit nempe Christum atque ipsius Apostolos multo plura tum ad mores tum ad fidem pertinentia docuisse quam ea quae scripta sunt Et tametsi hoc aperte probare non possimus nam planè fatemur inter nos tantum habemus conjecturas quasdam tamen confitemur esse verum quia sic tenet Romana Ecclesia Hic est in summa cardo totius controversiae hinc tumultus illi hinc illa contentio Nam Apostolorum temporibus ut verum tibi fateamur sed silentio opus est vel aliquot annis post ipsos Apostolos nulla vel papatus vel Cardinalatus mentio erat nec amplissimos illos reditus Episcopatuum Sacerdotiorum fuisse constat nec templa tantis sumptibus exstruebantur nec erant Monasteria nec Priores nec Abbates multo vero minus hae doctrinae hae leges hae consuetudines sed neque imperium illud quod in Gentes Nationes hodiè obtinemus Quin omnes omnium Ecclesiarum Ministri Romanae non minus quam caeterarum ultro Regibus principibus magistratibus parebant Nos Re probe examinatâ comperimus hanc Ecclefiae gloriam authoritatem potentiam tunc primum exortam esse cum in ea sagaces solertes Episcopi praeesse caepêrunt qui per occasionem à Caesaribus contenderent ut suâ authoritate at potentiâ primatum summam in alias Ecclesias potestatem penes hanc sedem esse statuerent Praeterea Consilium nostrum esset ut tua sanctitas Cardinalibus Episcopis praeciperet ut Logicam Sophisticam Artemque Scholasticam Metaphysicam Folio 5. item decretales sex Clementinas extravagantes regulas Cancellariae in sua quisque civitate legiae doceri publice curent Utinam legendis hujusmodi libris homines ubique diligentius incubuissent Neque enim res nostrae in hujusmodi deploratissimum statum adductae essent Sed hi contemptis melioribus istis disciplinis Graecae Hebraicae linguae operam dare mox Bibliorum