one and the same Religion without any variation which is exactly what Christ promised Therefore this is not the Church of Jesus Christ This Church hath forsaken the Supreme Authority and Infallibility of the Church of Rome and refused to pay obedience to her decisions on the contrary the hath taken upon her to examine those Decisions and hath done all that in her lay utterly to subvert this Tribunal which is so necessary to the subsistence of the true Church Therefore she is not the Church of Jesus Christ Of these Objections especially hath M. de Meaux made his Book to consist and because this of mine is made publick only with a design to answer that it is not fit I should prevent the reading of it in this Preface nor forestal the judgment men may make of my Answers when they see them at large I shall think it therefore sufficient to say in general by way of preparation That all these pretended Principles which the Gentlemen of the Romish Communion take the freedom to suppose are every one of them false and sophistical and capable of being confuted more ways than one because all built upon a false and vain foundation For in truth what greater vanity can there be than to go about to form an Idea of the Church after the pattern of a Civil Society The Civil Society is a humane contrivance that owes its birth to natural instinct under the Government of a General Providence and is kept up and preserved by Rules of Justice and humane Policy The Church is a Divine and Supernatural work born only of the Blood of the Son of God and animated only by his Spirit His hands have made it and his particular Providence watches over it and preserves it The Laws of the Civil Society do not properly respect any more than the outward man they never make it any part of their End or business to regulate mens hearts or alter the inclinations or inward motions there all within they leave perfectly free and are satisfied with an outward observation which comes within the reach of man's power The Laws of the Church do chiefly regard the inward man their design is to sanctifie the heart and fix themselves especially in the soul which are effects above any power of man and can belong to none but God only The matters in which the Civil Society is imployed are meerly temporal such as we call the Goods of Fortune Honour Trade the Exercise of Arts and Sciences and other things of this kind which may be cognisable by men and brought under their Jurisdiction But the matters in which the Society of the Church is concerned consist in Mysteries conveyed to us by a Supernatural Revelation in Laws imposed upon the Conscience in the internal and external practice of Christian Vertues Now all these things are Heavenly Spiritual unchangeable having no dependance upon the will authority or declaration of men but solely and immediately upon the will of God and his declaring them to be such To make a man a true member of the Civil Society there is no more required than to seem so in the eyes of the world who can pass a judgment only on the outward appearance without being able to dive into the heart To be a member of the Church it is required that a man be so not in the eyes of men only but of God too who aâ— the Scripture expresses it trieth the very hearts and reins and will not be satisfied with a pare outside The design of Civil Societies is that every man may according to his quality and station enjoy the publick Priviledges that his Personal Rights and Properties may be preserved intire that each particular person may live quietly and peaceably under the protection of the whole Body and these are Advantages not out of the power of men to give The end for which the Church is designed is everlasting Salvation a Heavenly Paradise the happiness of a life to come which are all Advantages not within the power of men to confer In the Civil Society private men ought rather to suffer injuries that are put upon them than disturb the peace of the whole Body because such injuries may be endured and yet not approved and besides if they do it the evil is not past all redress for God who protects the innocent and oppressed is able to right them and recompence their losses with interest In the Church it is far otherwise where the Conscience must acquiesce and a quiet submission cannot be given to a lye an error or an unjust thing without approving it and when it is approved the evil is past redress for God will avenge that fault and nothing can make us amends for the loss of our Eternal Salvation Besides that the peace we hereby allow the whole Body is so far from a Blessing that it is the worst of Evils being in truth no better than a War against God I repeat it therefore once again That there is not in the World a greater falsity nor a more sophistical imposture than the framing such a notion of the Church after the model of Civil Societies The case standing thus who does not perceive that all the conclusions from this false supposition fall to the ground and utterly vanish A man must not after this fancy the Church to be a Body merely external nor that all its essence consists in a bare Profession nor that these Definitions given us of it which run upon an outward profession of the same Faith a participation of the same Sacraments a submission to the same Pope without allowing internal Graces any share are good and valid definitions nor that wicked men worldlings and hypocrites are Members of Jesus Christ's true Church All this would do if the question were concerning a Body or contrivance merely humane as the Civil Society is But when we discourse of a thing that is the work and contrivance of God and must bear some proportion to the excellency of its Author we must affirm that Faith Hope and Charity and in one word all the parts of true Regeneration are essential to it and that this consists of the Faithful and Elect only excluding thence the Hypocrites and Reprobate We must not afterwards fancy the Church so be a body or company of men visible at the same rate that Kingdoms and Commonwealths are Liâ—â—an so as to distinguish plainly and without danger of mistake the very persons whereof it is composed This were allowable provided the Church consisted in an outward appearance and bare profession only But we must affirm it to be visible in the midst of dissemblers as honest men are visible when mixt with those that act otherwise or to make use of a Scripture instance as the good Corn is visible tho mingled in the same field with Tares that look like it The Promises of Jesus Christ must no longer be applied to all the exterior Body made up of a mere profession nor must
the curiosity you have to see what I wrote upon the same subject the next day after our Interview M. de Condom having profest it was not his desire that what past between him and me should be publickly talked of I thought my self under an obligation to confine what I had written to my own Study And this hath been hitherto very punctually observed by me But now since he hath thought fit to give out Copies of his I have reason to believe that in this respect he leaves me perfectly to my liberty and is well satisfied I should do the same thing with mine I have too great an opinion of M. de Condom's Wisdom not to follow his Example in this particular and I promise my self from his Equity that he will not find fault with me for treading in his steps But because he hath been pleased to impart to us that Discourse also which he had with Mademoiselle de Duâ—as in private the day before our Conference you will think it convenient that before I transcribe my Relation I should first make some reflections upon That Were this a discourse of such a nature as common occasions or accidents are used to produce where a man speaks without preparation or design and delivers himself with all the freedom imaginable I confess it were unjust to examine it strictly and by rule But seeing this was composed by M. de Condom with a prospect of obliging Mademoiselle de Duras to change her Religion and which seems a studied piece a Discourse which he hath joyned to the account of our Conference as a considerable part of what past in this matter Lastly a Discourse committed to Writing upon supposal that it may be useful to others and for that purpose made in some measure publick I cannot forbear looking upon it as a work of premeditation and returning some answer to it accordingly Besides that you and I are concerned as to what Mademoiselle de Duras hath done to desire to know whether she had sufficient reasons to forsake your Communion and embrace the Romish and the examination of this Discourse will be a very proper means of clearing that point to us Now it may be reduced to two principal Parts In the first M. de Condom makes it his business to shew that the Catholick or Universal Church which we profess to believe in the Creed is a Church thus defined A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his word Whence he infers That it is a visible Society He pretends also to make it appear that to this Church thus defin'd belong all the promises found in Scripture In the Second He labours to answer an Objection drawn from what happened to the Church of Israel heretofore in which we often see the true Worship of God to have been changed and corrupted and both the People and their Guides to have fallen into Idolatry These two Parts Sir we will prosecute in order and by applying our selves to what is most material in them will endeavour by the assistance of God's Grace to make the Truth so evident as shall remove all difficulties The first Part of M. de Condom's discourse examin'd Instead of granting the Ministers says M. de Condom to believe all the Fundamentals of the Faith we shew that there is one Article of the Creed they believe not which is that of the Universal Church 'T is true they say with the mouth I believe the Catholick or Universal Church as the Arrians Macedonians and Socinians say with the mouth I believe in Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost But as there is reason to accuse them of not believing these Articles because they believe them not as they ought nor according to their true sense so if we shew the Pretended Reformed that they believe not as they ought the Article of the Catholick Church we may truly say that in effect they reject so important an Article of the Creed You must know then what is meant by this expression The Catholick or Universal Church and upon this I lay for my ground That in the Creed which was only a bare declaration of Faith this Term must be taken in its most proper and most natural signification and such as is most used among Christians Now all Christians by the name of the Church understand a Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his Word If this Society makes this Profession 't is consequently visible That this is the proper and genuine signification of the word Church such as is known by every one and used in common discourse I desire no other witnesses than the Pretended Reformed themselves The sequel will declare whether the scandal of dealing with that Article of the Universal Church as the Arrians Macedonians and Socinians do would not better agree with the Character of such as follow M. de Condom's Opinion than the Reformed Ministers This we shall presently be able to judge of and to that purpose four Questions must be examined The first is Whether the sense of that Article in our Creed ought to be restrained according to M. de Condom to the Church here on Earth or extended farther Secondly Whether this be a good and sufficient definition of the Church upon Earth A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his word Thirdly Whether this Church upon Earth be visible or invisible or whether it be both considered in a different sense and different respects Fourthly To what Church the Promises of Jesus Christ do belong whether to that defined by M. de Condom or to that which we are about to define These four Questions will include not only all the plausible things M. de Condom hath said in this first part of his Discourse but likewise all the other sophistical Objections that are usually put to us upon this subject Quest 1. Whether the sense of that Article in our Creed ought to be restrained according to M. de Condom to the Church here on Earth or extended farther In order to resolving the first Question you will please Sir to give me leave to explain briefly that Article of our Creed concerning the Catholick or Universal Church and how we understand it that so you may be able to judge whether M. de Condom had reason to accuse us of not taking it in its true sense And this I shall immediately enter upon We think then this being such a profession of Faith as ought to embrace its object entire and in the utmost extent and not in any one part only that by the Vniversal Church must be understood not barely the visible body or company of the Faithful at present upon Earth but that body or company of all the Faithful which have been are or at any time shall be from the beginning to the end of the World Thus the Universal Church is That which is already
being reduced to a bare external profession Would God have sent us a new Jerusalem a new Sion a new City from above and make this up of Righteous and Wicked Hypocrites and true Believers indifferently Does not the Apostle understand it so when he says that Jerusalem is free that her children are not in bondage i. e. those who are the Children by promise that they shall not be cast out like Children of the bondwoman but shall be Heirs and that there is the same difference between this and the other Jerusalem that was between the two Wives of Abraham Sarah and Agar Would God make him a new Tabernacle a new House a new Temple and build it of holy and profane materials indifferently St. Peter did not intend it so You says he as lively stones are built up a spiritual house Would God separate to himself a new people a new Israel a new Nation from all other Nations and require from it no more than an outward profession which alone works no regeneration at all To shew that God himself never intended this observe how himself speaks This shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days saith the Lord I will put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts and will be their God and they shall be my people We must take notice that all these names above mentioned are derived from the old figures of the Mosaical dispensation this the very reading of them plainly testifies Now this very thing makes directly against M. de Condom's definition For as it is essential to a figure to consist of something External and Corporeal so is it equally essential to the thing figured to consist of something Internal and Spiritual The Church therefore is no longer a Jerusalem an Israel a people linked together by outward bands only this would correspond well enough with the figures of the old Law but it is a people an Israel a Jerusalem united and compacted by the inward hands of the same Faith and the same Sanctification This very term the Church is of it self sufficient to confirm this truth M. de Condom acknowledges the Christians had it from the Jews which is true He says the Jews made use of it to signify the visible Society of God's people the Assembly which makes profession to serve him I agree with him in that too He adds That the Christians have kept it in the same sense I am not of that opinion This word when applied to the figure can signify no more than a visible outward Assembly but when to the thing figured it must of necessity imply something more it must denote an inward community a company not of Bodies only but Souls too for it is not enough that a confession be made with the mouth men must also believe with the heart unto Righteousness III. This will be yet more evident if you reflect on some other applelations given to the Church with relation to Jesus Christ For it is called His flock his sheep his spouse his sister his dove his well-beloved his body a Body whereof He is the head a Body that is his flesh and his bones a house built upon him as upon a Corner-stone the sanctified in Jesus Christ the Children which God hath given him and other expressions like these Now who can ever imagine these glorious Titles should import no more than an outward profession or that profane persons and reprobates can have any share in them It is his flock but what flock Fear not little flock for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom They are his sheep but how My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me And I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand It is his Spouse and his Sister but in what respect Thou hast ravished my heart my sister my spouse thou hast ravished my heart It is his Dove but why his Dove My dove my undefiled is but one the daughters saw her and blessed her She is his well-beloved but Wherefore his Well-beloved As the lilly among therns so is my beloved among the daughters It is his Body but how his body The edifying of the body of Christ till we all come in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the son of God unto a perfect man unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ He is its Head but what sort of Head From him the whole body fitly joyned together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth maketh increase of the body to the edifying of it self in love It is his flesh and his bones but how these No man ever hateth his own flesh but nourisheth and cherisheth it even as the Lord the Church It is a structure built upon him but how In him all the building fitly framed together groweth into an holy temple in the Lord. They are the sanctified in Jesus Christ but how sanctsied They are such as in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. They are the Epistle of Jesus Christ but in what regard the Epistle Written not with Ink but with the spirit of the living God not in tables of stone but in fleshy tables of the heart It is his People but what kind of people Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power in the beauties of holiness They are the Children which God hath given him But wherefore were they given him To exhibit them one day saying Behold I and the children which thou hast given me Thou hast given me power over all flesh that I should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given me Can any man after all this grant that the Church should be defined A Society making profession to believe c. or imagine that Hypocrites belong to this mystical Divine Body IV. If we search the Scripture yet further we shall find other Arguments in confirmation of this Truth Among these I reckon the predictions concerning the Church of Christ to be met with in the Prophets Thus it is described by Moses The Lord thy God will circumcise thy heart and the heart of thy seed to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul that thou mayest live There shall be saith Isaiah a high-way and a way it shall be called the way of holiness the unclean shall not pass over it but it shall be for those the wayfaring men tho fools shall not err therein No lion shall be there nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon it shall not be found there but the redeemed shall walk there And in another place All thy children shall be taught of the Lord and great shall be the peace of thy children In righteousness
these ruins Qu. 3. Whether the Church upon Earth be visible or invisible or whether both together considered in a different sense and under different respects Thus much I think Sir may suffice to give a resolution of the second question which was whether the Bishop of Condom's definition of the Church upon Earth was a good and sufficient definition viz. A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his word or whether it was defective and required something else to be added to it You see the necessity of handling this subject with some exactness for it being our business to know what Society we must be of to obtain Salvation and both sides agreeing that it is the true Church being it concerns us to know to what Society the Promises of Jesus Christ are to be applied and both sides agreeing that it is the true Church The first thing in reason to be done is to form an abstracted Idea of the true Church before it be applied to any particular subject that so this may serve for a Rule and direct us to know at least what that true Church is which we enquire after We know in general that there is one true Church we know also that this Church is a Religious Society but when we come to define it particularly every one knows his own method of doing it This therefore is the first thing to be determined not only to avoid equivocation but to prevent a continual deviation which may otherwise happen through the whole dispute by means of a mistake in the beginning and this having given occasion to the second question the dispatching that already will mightily facilitate our enquiry into the third The thing then to be examined is whether the Society of true believers who only are the Church be visible or invisible or whether both in some senses and respects For the resolution of this Query I shall not say that this true Church being a Society of men and so a body that hath its external order as all other Societies have hath likewise consequent to that a visibility common to it with all other bodies Thus much is necessarily supposed for the Believers are not Angels nor invisible Spirits but in this respect like the rest of mankind But this visibility being supposed we must further enquire Whether there be not yet another which gives it the Character of Jesus Christ's true Church so that a man may say That the body we see and which is the object of our senses as the true Church of Christ In this there would not be the least difficulty had not God's design as to his Church been disturbed by the enemy of our Salvation For since God calls true Believers only and since as we have already shewn such alone constitute the Church were it not for what happens from some other thing there would not be among the outward Professors of Christianity either Hypocrites or Hereticks or Superstitious or worldly or profane persons And thus none but such as are truly the faithful being to be found among them this outward profession would be a sure means and an univocal Character to know the true Faith and Regeneration by and consequently to know the true Church of Jesus Christ as such So that we need say only thus much That although the Church were not immediately visible by its inward and cssential form because none can immediately see mens hearts but God only yet it would be visible by its external form as by a sure distinguishing Character For it might be seen by its Ministery and profession of Faith in Christ and known to such a degree that a man might infallibly and positively say That is the Church But we all know that is Jesus Christ sowed his good seed in the field of the world so to use the expressions in the Parable the enemy hath likewise sown Tares That is that with the true Believers are intermixt vast numbers of men who 〈◊〉 no more than the appearance and outside of Christianity and so make the outward profession to be a note subject to mighty uncertainties and equivocation This God hath permitted for reasons known to his own wisdom and hence have risen on one side false Churches and on the other false members of the true I mean whole Communities who have wrongfully assumed to themselves the title of a Church and single persons who wrongfully assumed the title of the Faithful So that the Church now like all other things liable to hypocrisy and dissimulation cannot be truly known without much difficulty And whereas according to the nature of the thing the Churches visibility and invisibility ought to lye here that its essential and internal from cannot be seen immediately and of it self but may by the mediation of its external form instead of this they do now consist further in a discerning between true and false a distinguishing betwixt that which is real and sincere and that which is counterfeit We must therefore examine how this distinction is to be made because in it consists the visibility or invisibility of the true Church Whether we must make it between several external bodies differing from one another or between several persons externally incorporated into the same Body I bâ—gin with the former and affirm that the discerning between several bodies depends upon some certain marks or characters whereby that body on whose side the true Church is may be distinguished from another where it is not I shall not now shew what those Characters are for this is another dispute between the Church of Rome and us which we need not here engage our selves in It is enough we are all agreed that such marks there are and that by them this distinction must be made That which most concerns us to take notice of and which I desire you would observe with a very particular attention is that after we have found this Body or external Society on whose side the true Church is we may and in reality do form to our selves two notions of it one proceeding from a mere Judgment of Charity the other from a Judgment of Reflection By the Judgment of Charity we look upon all within the Body to be true Believers indifferently For the searching of hearts being not in our power but peculiar to God Charity makes no distinctions but supposes that things are in truth what they should be and upon this supposition we call all that society the visible Church speaking simply and absolutely By the Judgment of Reflection having consulted the Rules of Scripture and the light of Experience we come to know that there are Tares mixed with the Wheat and that it is past a doubt that among these outward Professours are abundance of hypocritical superstitious ambitious and prophane people Hence we correct our first notion and term this Society a visible mixt Church Thus in the same external body we distinguish two different Bodies one of true
Believers which we look upon as the true Church of Jesus Christ the other of hypocrites and worldlings who have only the shadow and shell of Faith and Regeneration and consequently do not belong to Jesus Christ's true Church This is the original of all that ambiguity betwixt the Romanists and us M. de Condom according to the principles of Cardinal Bellarmin and Perron and most of the Doctors of his Communion does in this Dispute judge of the true visible Church by that notion of Charity which without making any difference includes bad and good true and false Believers And we judge of the true visible Church by that other termed the notion of Reflection which excludes hypocrites and worldlings and confines it self to true Believers only He supposes without offering any proof for it that there is no other visible Church than this whole Body of Professors and that That of the true Believers is invisible which we deny He proves that the true Church of Christ to whom the promises belong is a visible Church which we grant We must take leave therefore to tell him that he supposes what he should prove and proves what he ought to suppose which must needs entangle the matter in dispute and render it mighty intricate and obscure But what great matter is it you 'l say as to this Dispute whether a man judges of the true visible Church by the notion of Charity or that of Reflection I answer if the matter had concerned only the Duties incumbent on the Church or exhorting and instructing men in those Duties it would signify very little which of these two notions we followed For the duties incumbent on beth good and had are much the same they all hear the same Word partake of the same Sacraments and are all under the same Obligations But the present controversy does not concern the duties and exhortations to them but the investing the Church in some particular rights and priviledges allowed her and applying to her the promises of Jesus Christ So that it highly concerns us in this case not to follow a notion which may lead us into mistakes and give away these priviledges and promises to men that have no manner of right to them It nearly concerns us not to follow a notion which may occasion our falling into errour under pretence of that name the Church There is an absolute necessity of clearing an ambiguity which if not cleared may prejudice our Conscience and put our Salvation upon a hazard Now Sir let us see I beseech you whether of these two notions is rather to be received in this dispute And this will easily appear if we consider That the notion followed by M. de Condom is grosly false in one of its parts as taking for true Believers persons who really are not so and can pretend to truth no further than as it is conformable to this second notion That it is not grounded upon an exact knowledg of its object but merely upon a charitable supposition which if niecly look'd into is not true it self And so there can be no robable argument for allowing evil men and hypocrites a part in Christ's Promises Those false plants which our heavenly father hath not planted Those tares which the Lord hath not sown in his field but the enemy râ—se by night to cast in privily Men not at all concerned in that Idea of the true Church which Scripture gives us and consequently not of it In a word this will easily appear that the notion we follow is the most exact the most certain the most agreeable to the Idea's given in Scripture and the only one that can bear any proportion to the Promises of Jesus Christ and the dignity of the true Church But it may be said Was not M. de Condom in the right to say there was not actually any visible Church but that which he defâ—â—es A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his word And so no other than that which comprehends good and bad true Believers and Hypocrites And was it not fair then to make use of this notion in the Controversy I answer the true Church consisting of true Believers only is not indeed visible by any certain and distinct sight we can have of it so as to affirm positively and personally such or such are of the true Church When we would carry on this distinction to particular men disguise and hypocrisie put a stop to it so that in this sence the true Church will always continue invisible till Jesus Christ come to make a full and perfect separation betwixt his own Corn and the Enemies Tares which shall not be done till the end of the World Thus it is not visible not only immediately by its internal form in mens hearts but even by these external Characters as to certain and distinct visibility because dissimulation and deceit often makes these marks to be doubtful All this I grant But for all this we may and must say that the true Church is visible truly visible in other senses and respects For first of all it cannot be denied that it is visible at least materially as they say because the true Believers that appear visibly in publick Assemblies partake of the same Sacraments and live in the same external Order The faithful do not conceal themselves nor decline the Holy Exercises of Religion but on the contrary frequent them and shew themselves more than other men remembring that of St. Paul Not forsaking the assembling of our selves together Besides It is plain that tho the true Church be mixt with wicked men in the same profession yet is it visible in this very mixture as the wheat is visible tho in the same field with the tares and the good fish in the same net with the bad according to the parables in the Gospel or as true Friends are visible tho mixt with dissemblers and flatterers This mixture indeed hinders us from an exact distinction of persons but still we may with great certainty distinguish and discern two sorts of persons We are not sure which particular men are true Believers and which Hypocrites but we are sure that there are true Belivers as well as Hypocrites and this is enough to prove the Church visible according to the Scriptures and t. Austin's Hypothesis Nay I will go further yet for 't is true that upon some occasions Hypocrites do plainly distinguish themselves from true Believers and upon some other occasions true Believers do plainly make a personal distinction of themselves from Hypocrites For instance when we see men drowned in vices inconsistent with true Faith when we see them throw themselves into Superstitions and Errors that are contrary to the true Doctrine and Worship of God tho they abide still in the same Congregations with others and communicate in the same Sacraments yet this makes a negative distinction so as we may say these are not the true
Believers that is not of the true Church On the other side when we see men undergo long sharp tryals without being removed either from the profession of the true Doctrine and Worship or from that of Righteousness and Holiness in this respect here is made a positive distinction and such as makes us acknowledg that these persons are of the true Church of Jesus Christ I confess these distinctions are not always either so certain as never to admit of mistakes nor so universal as not to confound one with another For a man may judg rashly of both sorts either for want of knowing mens particular circumstances and the motives they went upon or some other way and it is never seen that all Hypocrites discover themselves at once But however there is great use to be made of this distinction and such a visibility of the true Church results from it as is in some sort personal according to our Hypothesis Now Sir you see whether M. de Condom was in the right to take it for granted as if it were a certain truth that there was no visible Church but such a one as he defined that comprehends good and bad true Believers and Worldlings contrary to the Scriptures and St. Augustin's sense You see too whether he was in the right to maintain in this first part of his discourse that we deny the Churches visibility The Pretended Reform'd says he will not have the visible Church to be that which is called Jesus Christ's Body Which is then that Body where God hath established some Apostles c. Which is that Body where God hath placed several Members and different Graces the Grace of Ministry the Grace of Teaching the Grace of Exhortation and Consolation the Grace of Ruling Which I say is that Body if it be not the visible Church We never denied the visible Church upon Earth to be Christ's Body not the whole Body indeed for there is one part of it collected in Heaven and another not yet in being but still that part upon Earth is Jesus Christ's Body so the Scripture calls it and we are so far from thinking as he saies that quite contrary we prove Hypocrites and Worldlings to be really no part of the true visible Church by this very Argument that it is called in Scripture the Body of Jesus Christ For this reason the visible Church is thus defined in the 27th Article of our Confession of Faith The company of the Faithful agreeing to follow the Word of God and that pure Religion grounded thereon and who constantly make proficiency therein Now this Company of the Faithful thus described is and is called the Body of Jesus Christ If M. de Condom had been at the pains to read Calvin he would find him speaking of the visible Church in the 4th Book of his Institutions Chap. 1. thus It is no ordinary commendation the Scripture gives it when 't is said Ephes 5. 26 27. that Christ hath chosen it and separated it for his spouse to make her without spot and wrinkle his body and his fullness M. Mestrezzat speaking of the visible Church in the same sense says The instruments made use of by God to build his Church are the Pastors and Ministers of his Gospel Ephes 1. 23. according to that of St. Paul Ephes 4. He hath given some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the gathering together the Saints for the work of the Ministry for the edifying of the Body of Christ And a little after The same Body of Christ which is invisible as to the Election of God and inward sanctification of the heart enjoys the visible Ministry of the Word and from it brings forth fruit unto salvation For we must not look for the Church of God out of this visible state of the Ministry of the Word The same thing I say with relation to that other passage of St. Paul where he says Ephes 5. 25 26 27. Jesus Christ loved the Church and gave himself for it that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word That he might present it to himself a glorious Church not having spot or wrinkle They will not have it possible says M. de Condom Conference Page 5. for this place to be understood of the visible Church not yet of the Church on Earth He must pardon me if I say he is mistaken for tho we understand by this the Church already in Heaven yet do we besides understand the visible Church upon Earth and M. Mestrezzat speaking of this passage saies expresly That St. Paul there sets forth the Church as one and the same Body receiving Grace and Glory and makes Glory to be the perfection and accomplishment of Grace It is evident then that the visible Church is in our Opinion Jesus Christ's Body or which comes all to one that the Body of Christ which is the true Church upon Earth is visible I should now conclude my Third Enquiry did I not think my self under an obligation to remove some difficulties which may be started upon it For it may be said the Ministry is common to good and bad and consequently it makes a Church composed of good men and bad I answer that the Ministry and the use of it is common both to good and bad comes to pass only by accident and from the treachery of the Enemy Of right it belongs to true Believers only and its genuine design was for them Jesus Christ gave it for the assembling of the Saints and instituted it to increase and cultivate his good Corn. If the Tares use it or to speak more truly abuse it this is contrary to his intention For his hand never sowed these but the enemy's who rose by night for that purpose It is sure then that the Ministry of it self does not make up a Church composed of good and bad men because such only as it was intended to gather are to be reckoned of his visible Church Now the Ministry is designed to gather the true Believers and truly Righteous not the worldlings and hypocrites in the least If they thrust themselves into the Assemblies it is not the Ministry that calls them but the spirit of the world that sends them thither An invincible argument that there is no other visible Church but what consists of true Believers because they are the only persons call'd to Religious Assemblies and it is not Jesus Christ but Jesus Christ's enemy that thrusts others into them To give you yet further satisfaction as to this Point permit me Sir to interpose between M. de Condom and St. Augustin not to set them at difference but endeavour to reconcile them M. de Condom assures me that Jesus Christ in that passage Tell it the Church spoke of a visible Church a Church visible by the exercise of the Ministry St. Augustin on the other side assuâ—es me that he speaks of
Mr. CLAVDE's ANSWER TO Monsieur de MEAVX's BOOK INTITULED A Conference with Mr. CLAUDE WITH HIS LETTER to a FRIEND WHEREIN He Answers a Discourse of M. de Condom now Bishop of Meaux concerning the Church IMPRIMATUR Junii 18. 1687. GVIL. NEEDHAM LONDON Printed for T. Dring at the Harrow in Fleetstreet at Chancery-Lane-end MDCLXXXVII THE Author's Preface AMONG all the Points in Controversy betwixt us and the Gentlemen of the Romish Communion it is plain there is not any one wherein they think better of their Cause than this which hath been started since our Reformation Concerning the Church and yet perhaps there is not any one wherein they have less reason to think so Were this groundless confidence observed to be predominant among the Vulgar only who seldom look beyond the prejudices of their Infancy or among the busy men of intrigue in the Age who are ever raising their worldly Advantages as a Bulwark against the Truth there would be no great reason to be surprised at it But the most amazing thing of all is that we continually meet with the same Opinion in persons that want neither Understanding nor sound Sense and Judgment and which otherwise seem men of Integrity and Sincerity so that there is scarce any question to be made but that they are verily perswaded of the thing as a certain undoubted Truth Now for the undeceiving these Persons it will in my opinion be convenient not only to set their own Conceptions before them but also to go back as far as the ground and original of those Conceptions that so they themselves may plese to make such Reflexions upon them as they shall judg fit and necessary The ground then of all this mistake is that upon pretence of the Churches being a Society they immediately suffer themselves to be possest at first with an Opinion That we are to judg of it almost in the same manner that we do of a Civil Society and so never give themselves the trouble of enquiring into the differences by which these two are distinguisht from one another Hence they have fancied that the Essence of the Church consists intirely in something External and that as a man need do no more to become a true Member of a Civil Society than only live in an outward observance of the Laws so to become a true Member of the Church no more was required than barely an outward Profession of the Faith and Religion and that there was no necessity at all of any inward Virtues such as Faith Hope and Charity This is the very thing that hath made the Definitions of most of their modern Divines who place it in a meer outward Profession be entertained with Approbation and Applause And when once these Definitions are received they are under a necessity of looking upon not any one part of these Professors to be the true Church of Jesus Christ but in general the whole Body of Professors whether they be good or bad men just or unjust hypocrites or sincere Believers From hence by another unavoidable consequence they are forced to conceive of the Church not only as an exterior and visible Body but as a Body distinctly and certainly visible to such a degree I mean that a man might point out without any danger of mistake the particular men of whom it is composed as plainly and distinctly as you can point the Persons that make up any other Society and declare without the least fear of mistaking your men such and such are members of it Such a visibility of the Church as this it is that Bellarmin hath explained thus The Church is a company of Men as visible and as palpable as the Citizens of Rome the Kingdom of France or the Republick of Venice So that his meaning is that as the French the Romans and Venetians may plainly and particularly be singled out so likewise may the Persons that make the Body of the Church be as particularly and with the same degree of certainty that they were Indeed if there be nothing besides a bare outward Profession required to make men truly Members of the Church This Profession is a thing discernable by the eye in every single person and thus the Church will be visible so as that particular men may be plainly distinguished to be of it By another necessary and unavoidable Consequence they were constrained to apply all the Promises made by God to his Church whether in the Old or New Testament to this visible and exteriour Body And being these Promises include the Churches perpetuity that they might keep as close to their first Notions as they could there was a necessity of explaining the Churches subsistence in this sense That the Church must always subsist after the manner of a sensible and palpable body so as to be the object of our sight and discernable by all the World even to a plain and positive distinction of particular persons Hence it is that they have drawn their so much boasted Succession and which all their disputes run so much upon Whereby they understand a continued train of Priests one after another in the same Episcopal Sees and a continued train of people making up the same Congregations so as that both People and Priests always make profession of the same Religion without any change or alteration except it be perhaps in matters of Discipline which are things that may very well admit of a change without making the Church to differ from what it was before Then carrying these Conceptions of theirs still further they fancied that as in order to the preservation of the Civil Society an absolute Supreme Authority to which all must bend is necessary because without such a one there would be no possible means of composing differences or preventing Domestick quarrels the same was likewise necessary in the Church That in this one Supreme and Absolute Tribunal must be acknowledged upon Earth that without this and an intire obedience paid to it even in matters of Conscience Dispute would never be ended nor Unity preserved but at last things would come to such a pass that there would start up as many Churches and different Religions as Families And this gave birth to their pretentions to Infallibility and a blind implicite obedience to the determinations of Councils without presuming to examine them at all Lastly It is by all these prejudicate opinions that the Gentlemen of the Romish Communion suppose themselves able to overthrow the Protestant-Cause and make that of their own Church impregnable The pretended Reformed Church say they cannot be this exterior body always visible and palpable which must have continued in this state of visibility and that without any alteration ever since Jesus Christ and the Apostles time down to ours because this is not above a hundred or sixscore years old Therefore it is not the Church of Christ This cannot shew a continued succession of Priests and People Assemblies and Episcopal Sees nor a profession of
words in Anastasius that the See was vacant six days But this is a very idle story There is not any Author mentions this voluntary resignation of Vigilius nor his being chosen in again by the Clergy of Rome as is pretended 't is all a pure fancy of Baronius without any manner of probability for it and the five or six days which the See continued vacant are to be understood to follow not Sylverius his death but the time of his being deposed by Belisarius illegally and by force who took away his Pallium and compelled him to resume a Monks habit He lived after that a year in exile in the Island of Palmenia there he excommunicated Vigilius and his faction to wit the Clergy of Rome that very Clergy which chose Vigilius to succeed him so that the Excommunication being just and valid as Baronius owns it was we cannot look upon Vigilius and his Clergy and all the Bishops in the World then any otherwise than as men degraded and cut off from the Church And then according to M. de Meaux's principles there was no way left but for Christ to come into the World once more to re-establish the call to the Ministry The truth of what I assert may be tryed a third way in that Principle of the supreme Authority and Infallibility of Councils and the blind implicit obedience they pretend is due to them For supposing this Principle to take place the Church of Rome hath ceased to be a true Church long ago I shall not here produce all those Councils heretofore that decreed in favour of Arrianism such as that of Antioch of Sardica or of Philippi that of Milan of Sirmium of Arimini of Seleucia or of Constantinople I will not instance in the second Council of Ephesus where the Bishop of Rome's Legates assisted which establisht the Eutychian Heresy nor that of Diospolis which acquitted Pelagius the Heretick Nor will I speak of those which have at several times determined things directly contradictory to one another in the matter of Images such as the Council of Constantinople under Constantine Copronymus the second Council of Nice under the Empress Irene the Council of Franckfort under Charlemagne and the Council of Paris under Lewis the Debonaire Nor will I insist upon the Councils held in the Tenth Age which contradicted one another upon this question whether Formosus could be lawfully preferred to the Papacy contrary to his Oath which a Pope had dispensed with and whether all the persons ordained by him ought not to be reordained Without troubling our selves with things so far off we need only desire these Gentlemen to tell us if they really and sincerely believe these few late Councils to be infallible That of Rome under Gregory the seventh where Baronius says it was determined That the Pope hath power to depose Emperors and Kings That what he hath once determined no man can afterwards bring to a rehearing but that he alone can rehear and alter the determinations of all other persons That he cannot be judged by any man whatever That he may absolve the Subjects of wicked Princes from their Oaths of Allegiance That of Lateran under Alexander the Third which relèases Subjects from their Oaths of Allegiance which they have sworn to their Governors if those Governors hold any correspondence with Hereticks That of Lateran under Innocent the third which enjoyns That if Temporal Princes neglect to root out Hereticks there shall be notice given of it to the Pope that so the Pope may pronounce their Subjects absolved from their Oaths of Allegiance and dispose of their Countries to Catholicks who may discharge their duty better That of Lyons under Innocent the fourth which deposed the Emperor Frederick the Second released his Subjects from their Oaths of Allegiance and forbid them upon penalty of being Anathematized to acknowledg or obey him That of Constance which in the Bull of Martin the fifth containing the Clause de sacro approbante Concilio subjects not only Patriarchs Archbishops and Bishops but even Kings and other supreme Governors of what quality soever they be to the judgment of the Inquisitors even to a deprivation from their honours and all other worldly possessions That of Lateran under Leo the Tenth which sets the Pope's Authority above that of Councils directly contrary to what was defined by the Council of Constance with the approbation of Pope Martin the Fifth and to the Council of Basil with the approbation of Pope Eugenius the Fourth In a word the endeavouring to assert that Councils are infallible and giving them such an Authority as supercedes all examination is so bold an undertaking that many eminent persons in the Church of Rome it self thinking it could never be effected have not scrupled to declare for the other opinion Among these was the famous Abbot of Palerma principal of the Canonists whose words are so very considerable that I cannot omit repeating them I am of opinion says he that if the Pope have better reasons and better authorities than the Council he ought to stick to his own judgment For the Council may and sometimes actually has erred as particularly in the case of a Ravishers marrying with the woman on whom the Rape was committed Saint Jerom's opinion was preferred before the Decree of a Council because it was really better For in matters of Faith a single private mans judgment ought to be preferred before the Pope's if this private judgment be grounded upon better reasons taken out of the Old and New Testament It signifies nothing to alledg the Council cannot err because Jesus Christ hath prayed for his Church that it fail not In answer to this I say that although a General Council do indeed represent the Church universally yet it is plain the Vniversal Church is not there really but only by way of representation For the Vniversal Church is made up of the company of all the Faithful so that they are the Faithful throughout the whole world that constitute the Church Vniversally of which Christ is the Head and the Spouse The Pope is Christs Vicar but he is not truly the Head of the Church And this Church it is that cannot err Thus then it may so happen that the true Faith of Christ may continue entire in a single person and then the true Faith would not fail in the Church as the right of a Community may be preserved in a single member of it See now what the force of truth made one of the greatest Doctors of his Age say The Catholick Church in his opinion consists only of the Faithful it is of them only that Christ is the Head and the Spouse to them alone he hath promised that they shall abide for ever Councils may represent the Church but it does not follow from thence that they are the Church They may fall into Errors The true Church which refuses to fall with them may subsist in a very few and these few by preserving the true Faith will
about to make Converts they ought 〈…〉 pretence of saving them a little trouble to decline any instructiâ—â—◠〈◊〉 may be necessary for their satisfaction and being perswaded 〈…〉 Church of Rome's pretensions are just should not fear to have the Grounds of them examined but suppose they will be found strong and impregnable How comes it to pass then that M. de Condom was pleased to pass by so fundamental a Question And how could be satisfy himself with barely propounding his definition and saying only that This was what all Christians understand by the name of a Church However I shall be bold to say that this is neither all nor indeed the main part of what Christians do or ought to understand by it and that his definition is defective by at least one half to which therefore I shall oppose another which I assert to be what all Christians ought to understand by the name of Church viz. A Society of such persons as making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ do truly and effectually believe it and making profession to govern themselves by his word do really and effectually govern themselves by it Our business now is to know which of these two is a good and lawful definition whether that given us by M. de Condom in agreement with the Doctors of his Communion or this of mine in agreement with all Protestants That is to say we are concerned to know whether the nature and essence of the Church consist barely in externals and appearances or whether something of reality be not required whether Hypocrisy and superficial Cheats can make men true members of the Church or whether something of truth be not necessary also to know whether wicked men worldlings and reprobates provided they make an outward profession and can but dissemble handsomely are real members of Christ's mystical body or whether this priviledge do not belong to those that are truly the Faithful Here lies the pinch of the Question which in my opinion would have resolved it self had but M. de Condom propounded it fairly For methinks 't is very hard to acquiesce so far in his definition But not to insist on this first prejudice let us examine the matter throughly I. The Scripture represents the Church to us as the product and execution of God's eternal decree of Predestination or Election and besides it teaches us that God in electing and predestinating men does it not to a mere outward profession of Faith and Holiness but to an effectual Faith and true Holiness And consequently effectual Faith and Holiness are of the nature and essence of the Church and not an outward profession only The consequence is manifest For the best way to discover the nature and essence of any thing is to take it according to its own Author's first Idea and design supposing that he does not as we are all agreed God does not swerve at all from his design in the execution of it The Church then being God's own work the surest means to discern what that is will be to inform our selves of God's design if we can but find out that Now this we find in the Election Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ says St. Paul in the name of the whole Church who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world And a little after He gathers together in one all things in Christ both which are in heaven and which are in earth even in him In whom we have obtain'd an inheritance being predestinated according to the purpose of him c. To this relates that saying of Christ I pray not for the world but for them which thou hast given me for they are thine Where by opposing the world for which he does not pray to those whom his father had given him 't is plain he understands the Church and his meaning is that the Father hath given them to Jesus Christ because it was his by his purpose of Election This appears further from the words that immediately follow And all mine are thine and thine are mine for this mutual reciprocation of Good between his Father and Him if I may so term it is capable of no other sense but this in the sequel of his discourse My Church are thine Elect and thy Elect are my Church they who are mine as my people are thine as thy Elect my Communion and thy Election have the same measures the same extent and do both comprehend the same persons So that the Election is nothing else but God's design and project of the Church and the constituting of a Church is the putting that design of Election in Execution Blessed says David is the man whom thou chusest and causest to approach unto thee that he may dwell in thy courts These Courts are the Church of God and men enter into them only by vertue of God's Election God hath saved us says the Apostle and called us with an holy calling not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began We must therefore come to the knowledg of the Church by his Eternal purpose and to know that we must consult his Holy Word He hath chosen us says St. Paul that we should be holy and without blame before him in love Having predestinated us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself and that we should be to the praise of the glory of his grace He does not say a bare profession of Holiness but a real Holiness he does not say an appearance of adoption but a true adoption he does not say an external conversion but an internal That is such as may illustrate the glory of God God hath predestinated us to a true Faith and not an appearance of Faith to a sincere and substantial Regeneration not to a shadow or colour of it 'T is past a doubt then that a mere outward profession cannot give us a full definition of the Church but true Faith and Regeneration are necessary parts of the Idea we have of it II. The Scripture when speaking of the Church with reference to God gives it such appellations as can by no means be restrain'd to a more profession or allow us to think it can be composed of wicked persons It calls the Church Jerusalem which is above the Heavenly Jerusalem the City of the living God the Holy Hill of Sion the Israel of God A Holy Nation a peculiar people the inheritance of God the habitation of God through the spirit the house of God the temple of God His holy Priesthood His spiritual house His royal Priesthood His purchased possession the people of God Tell me now I pray if the energy of these expressions is not admirably answered by
of Jesus Christ ceases to be visible but he would not be well-pleased for that reason to be taxed with saying he ceases to be there at all But however let M. de Condom put what sense he please upon our words it is certain we acknowledg the Church to be perpetually visible in the meaning I explain'd just now And M. de Condom could never have spent his time to less purpose than in taking such pains to confute an opinion which we never held against him Quest 4. What Church the Promises of Jesus Christ belong to whether that defined by M. de Condom a Society making profession to believe c. or that which we define A Society which making profession to govern it self by Christ's Word does really govern it self by it M. de Condom speaking of us in one place of his Discourse says They have not the Consolation which the Catholicks have to see Jesus Christ's promise visibly accomplisht and maintain'd during so many Ages They cannot shew a Church which has ever been since Jesus Christ came to build it on the Rock and to save his word they are obliged to have recourse to a Church of the Predestinate which neither themselves nor any else can shew After having cleared the perpetual visibility of the Church as you lately saw judg you Sir what ground there is for his sayings we have not the consolation of seeing Jesus Christ's Promise visibly accomplish'd and maintain'd during so many Ages and whether we have not more than it is possible to have according to the Church of Romes principle M. de Condom according to his Principle sees the duration of a Church whose whole essence consists in an outward profession What is there in this more than human We see the duration of a Church whose essence consists in true Faith and Regeneration What is there in this that is not all Divine M. de Condom sees the duration of a Church supported by politick methods by paying a blind obedience to the injunctions of great men and those perhaps Hypocrites too What is there in this more than human We see the duration of a Church preserved in spight of confusion and all the froward malice of men What is there in this less than Divine They cannot says he shew a Church which hath ever been since Jesus Christ came to build it on the Rock Yes we shew this Church built on the Rock for when we shew the Body in which God nourishes and breeds up his true Believers we shew at the same time those true Believers which are his Church built on the Rock tho mixt with such as build on the Sand. When we shew the held where Jesus Christ sowed his good Seed we shew the Wheat tho there be Tares among it But let M. de Condom tell us if he think fit how he can shew us a Church built on the Rock making as he does the essence of the Church to consist entirely in an outward profession If he call this a Church upon the Rock Jesus Christ himself will reply for that such only are built upon a Rock who hear this word and do it whereas all besides are built upon the Sand. To save Christ's Word continues he they are obliged to have recourse to a Church of the Predestinate Does M. de Condom blame us for seeking the accomplishment of Jesus Christ's Promises in the body of his Elect and true Believers Pray where should we look for it else In a croud of Hypocrites and Reprobates that have no Faith no Holiness no Piety but in outward appearance only Such as God never call'd and Jesus Christ shall one day tell he never knew them Is not this of Cardinal Bellarmin's Perron's and M. de Condoms a curious Church to the constituting whereof no inward virtue is necessarily required but merely an outward profession of Faith and communicating in the Sacraments A Church whose Unity the formal essence of it is that of an external Vocation not that of Predestination nor internal Faith nor a Vnion of Souls by the works of Love In a word a Church defined not by believing and governing it self by God's word but by making profession to believe and govern it self by God's VVord Is not this putting a mighty value upon Jesus Christ's Promises to apply them not only to profane and worldly men as well as the Saints and regenerate but to such a Church as would remain entire tho there were no true believers nor righteous men in it and not cease to be the true Church of Christ tho it were composed of Hypocrites and none else Thus far Sir there is no great perspicacity required to discern that the question in hand resolves it self there being little probability that Jesus Christ was so lavish of his Promises But however let us examine the matter a little more closely The first passage M. de Condom presents us with is that of St. Paul Christ loved the Church and gave himself for it that he might cleanse it with the washing of Water by the Word that he might make it a glorious Church having neither spot nor wrinkle nor any such thing but that it might be holy and without blemish And a little after No man hateth his own flesh but nourisheth and cherisheth it even as the Lord the Church For we are members of his body of his flesh and of his bones We see in these words the obligation Jesus Christ put himself under to sanctify his Church to make it a glorious Church without spot or wrinkle holy and without blemish to nourish and cherish it as his own flesh and bones Our business is to know whether this obligation can upon any pretence whatever respect Hypocrites and wicked men And who will be perswaded it does This Church M. do Condom says is glorious because she glorifies God because she declares to all the Earth the Glory of Jesus Christ's Gospel and Cross Now as to the wicked of whom we are here treating there need but this one word be added That they glorify God and the Gospel in hypocrisy and dissimulation but in their hearts deny it Then see what God himself hath spoken as to this matter Vnto the ungodly said God why dost thou preach my laws and takest my Covenant in thy mouth This Church M. de Condom tells us is holy because she always constantly and without varying teaches the Holy Doctrine Add here But as for the wicked if they teach the holy Doctrine this is but with their lips and in shew only then see what St. Paul says They have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof from such turn away This Church according to M. de Condom hath neither spot nor wrinkle because she hath neither any evil Error nor any evil Maxim and because she instructs and contains in her bosom the Elect of God Add But as for sinners They follow Truth and Right only in pretence Then see what
Jesus Christ says of such Many will say unto me in that day Lord have not we prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out Devils and in thy name have done many wonderful works Then will I say unto them I never knew you depart from me ye workers of iniquity And can any man after all this allow them a propriety in the Promises of Christ The second passage M. de Condom makes use of is that of Jesus Christ which I will here set down at length Tell the Church but if he neglect to hear the Church let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a Publican verily I say unto you whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven Again I say unto you that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask it shall be done for them of my father which is in heaven For where two or three are gathered together in my name there am I in the midst of them Jesus Christ M. de Condom says used the word Church to signify this visible Society I agree with him that the Church there signifies a visible Church I say further that it signifies a Church represented by the Pastors by whom it binds and looses by whom it asks the Father I am still of opinion that those excellent Promises of Jesus Christ that God will ratify what they have bound and loosed that he will grant what they ask and that the Lord himself will be in the midst of them are all made to the Church taken in this sense But then I say withal that this visible Church is that of the true Believers only and that Hypocrites have no share at all in it It is to the true Believers alone that this Ministry belongs they are the persons represented by the Pastors they the only people that ask and obtain that are gathered together in Christ's name and in the midst of whem he is And yet it often happens that the Ministers of this Church tho they be in this function and do the business of it are not yet true Members of it themselves It often falls out says St. Augustin by reason of this mixture here upon Earth that people really belonging to Babylon administer the things belonging to Jerusalem All they of whom it is said whatsoever they bid you observe obesereveand do Matt. 23. 3. but do not ye after their works are Citizens of Babylon that rule the Commonwealth of Jerusalem For if they had no charge belonging to Jerusalem why should it be said They sit in Moses seat therefore what they bid you observe that observe and do Again if they were true Citizens of Jerusalem who should reign with Christ for ever What occasion was there for adding But do not ye after their works It is not then to the Ministers that the Promises belong but to the Body they represent and whose Offices they discharge Now this body is the New Jerusalem which shall reign with Christ for ever That is the true Believers M. de Cendom's third passage is this Thou art Peter and upon this rock will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it Jesus Christ says he would shew something illustrious and clear when he said that his Church maugre the opposition of Hell should be always invincible he would I say shew something clear and resplendent which might serve in all Ages for a sensible and palpable assurance of the immutable certainty of his Promises He adds The Church of which Christ speaks is then a confessing Church a Church that publishes the Faith and consequently an exteriour and visible Church He says further That it is a Church to which an exteriour Ministry is given for 't is added I will give unto thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven and whatsoever thou shalt bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven and whatsoever thou shalt loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven I answer The Church spoken of in this passage is really a Confessing Church a Church that publishes the Faith a Church to whom Christ hath given an exteriour Ministry a Church that uses the Ministry of the Keys that binds and looses and by Consequence an exteriour and visible Church The Question is whether wicked men let them dissemble never so well and carry never so fair an outside do truly belong to this Church or whether it consist of sincere Believers only 'T is a Church exteriour and visible I acknowledg it but it is also a Church interiour and real otherwise it would differ nothing from a Phantome a cheating apparition 'T is a Confessing Church and publishes the Faith but it is likewise a Church believing in what it confesses and publishes 'T is a Church to which not only St. Peter's Confession must be attributed but also the principle and ground of that Confession Blessed art thou Simon Bar-jona for flesh and blood hath net revealed this unto thee but my Father which is in Heaven And therefore whose Confession proceeds not from Flesh and Blood but from Grace and Divine Illumination 'T is a Church built upon a Rock and not upon the Sand therefore not a Church that Hypocrites are of 'T is a Church built by Jesus Christ a Church therefore of true Believers only because such only are built by Christ 'T is a Church to which this Promise of the Gates of Hell never prevailing against it belongs And can we with any pretence to modesty say that the Gates of Hell do not prevail against the wicked ingulfed in vâ—ce Can we say those admirable words carry no stronger importance than the preservation of a mere exteriour profession But this is a Chruch which hath and exerciseth such a Ministry Who questions it But does this Ministry belong to the wicked and hypocrites No. It belongs only to true Behevers the rest have no part in it only as they sometimes exercise the external Offices without any true right to them or receive them unworthily under the covering of hypocrisy and being intermixt with good Christians But M. de Condom says further Jesus Christ promised something illustrious and clear which might serve in all Ages for a sensible and palpable assurance of the immutable certainty of his Promises These words want a little unfolding If they understand hereby a temporal prosperity a perpetual visibility promised to the Church in pomp and lustre I deny that Christ promised any such thing If they understand an Earthly Dominion a worldly Greatness under the title of Hierarchy I deny still that Christ ever promised any such thing If they understand a constant unblemisht purity in the Ministry in the Matters of Doctrine and Worship of moral Rules and orderly Government This again I deny that Christ ever promised If they understand Believers perseverance in Faith and Holiness so far forth as
foregoing Principles THE first Consequence Sir to be drawn from what I said is that M. de Condom hath been very unjust in upbraiding us as if we dealt with that Article of our Creed concerning the Universal Church as the Arrians and Macedonians do with those that relate to Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost which is to confess them with the mouth but in effect to reject them by not believing them as we ought Those Hereticks evacuate the Articles concerning Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost because they allow them a Divinity which is but a seeming and imaginary one only and thus they rob Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost of their Real Essence Can any man say we do thus by the Church we make it essentially to consist in true and solid Faith and Regeneration Is not this to make it real what may be said of such as make it essentially to consist in a bare outward Profession Is not this to make it no better than a Phantome a Shadow Is not this to confess with the mouth but in effect to reject it Does not this make all those great and noble Ideas given of it in Scripture dwindle into nothing Judge you Sir if you please to which of these two Parties M. de Condom's reproach is most applicable II. By all I have said concerning the Visibility or Invisibility of the Church you may know what an unjust accusation they load us with daily of making the Church utterly invisible upon pretence that we place it in true Believers only for if this accusation were true it would fall not upon us but upon Scripture upon the Fathers and particularly upon St. Augustine whose Principles we follow intirely But as St. Paul never thought of making a Church perfectly invisible though he said The foundation of God standeth sure having this seal the Lord knoweth them that are his and let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity so neither do we pretend to spoil her of her Visibility when we say the same thing he did As St. Augustin hath not made her invisible though he said all that was related out of him the same thing must be said for us But what can we think of this method of disputing which supposing the charge upon tryal to be a granted confest thing falls strongly upon proving the Church's Visibility and so Proselytes men upon this false supposition and those useless Arguments Do not you look upon this as a very fair way of proceeding III. Hence likewise you may perceive how unjustly they put that question to us Where our Church was before the Reformation For if the Church consist of true Believers alone as we have shown ours was then just where it is now i. e. in the common Field where Jesus Christ hath sown his Wheat and the Enemy by Night his Tares There is only a twofold difference observable One that before the Reformation that part of the Field where the Corn was sown was wider whereas now it is contracted into less room because in many places the Tares have driven away the Wheat and remain alone another that then in the places where Wheat and Tares grew together the Wheat was thinner and got less nourishment and the Tares quite contrary whereas now the Wheat is thicker and better cultivated The Field is the World as Christ says the good Corn are true Believers the Tares are the Children of this World Before the Reformation the true Believers were mixt with the rest in the same exteriour Profession as they are still but they were if I may so say stifled as it were with the great number of the other sort and the spiritual life they led had much of uneasiness by reason of the Corruptions in the Ministry which stinted them in their necessary Food and besides mixt many such things with it as were not only incapable of sustaining life but even prejudicial to it Whereas since the Reformation these same Believers being separated from the rest are by this means much disburdened of that which opprest them they are more at liberty the Ministry allows them the Food of heavenly life in a much larger proportion and gives it them more pure and free from strange mixtures and though they still continue among worldly men yet now they do not find near so much prejudice from them IV. Another Instance of this nature is commonly given us and how injurious it is you may discern by the Principles laid down before They bid us shew them these true Believers before the Reformation single them out say they tell us their names were they visible or invisible If even at this time when things are not near so confused none but God only can know distinctly and infallibly what particular men are the true Believers If their visibility consist only in ones being able to say with certainty there are true Believers and not in saying such or such are the men is it not a very unjust demand to examine us of past Ages when things were so strangely in the dark Would not any man of equity think it enough that we can shew how far soever the Ministry was corrupted that still the true Believers might subsist under it and is not this very thing a visible indication of the Churches perpetual Visibility that God hath not forsaken us V. Another necessary Consequence of the Principles now establisht is that in an exteriour Society carrying the name of a Church it may so happen according to the Notion we frame of it from a Judgment of Charity that the Ministry Ecclesiastical Dignities and Chairs as they are termed may come to be filled by Hypocrites Superstitious Worldly and interested Persons and that there shall be a great many more such as these in Office than good men For seeing God only can have a distinct and personal knowledge of true Believers and since he does not bestow these Offices immediately and by his own hand it may without question come to pass that both those that confer and those that take upon them these Offices may be the Tares sown in the Lord's Field A man cannot have any absolute certainty that this shall not be so because there is not any promise to the contrary and because on the other hand there are instances that it hath been so already To pretend this cannot be because it would hinder the Churches subsisting for ever is no Argument at all for if the Church consist properly of true Believers as hath been undeniably proved the perpetual subsistence of true Believers does not depend on the faithfulness of the Ministers nor the untainted purity of the Ministry except we suppose the Principle of a blind Obedience to the Ministers which is a false Principle and destructive of Religion as hath been made appear in the defence of the Reformation Indeed this ground being laid when once the Ministry is corrupted it must needs follow that the faithful are corrupted too because bound
to receive implicitely whatever is delivered to them by their Ministry But reject this principle and there is no reason why the Faithful may not separate the good from the bad and why they may not subsist under such a Ministry by the help of that distinction which the Grace of God enables them to make And here Sir allow me to wonder a little at the pleasant double which the Doctors of the Romish Communion make when they dispute Our first and main question is whether we ought to acquiesce in the Council of Trent's Determinations Yes say they you must yield an implicit obedience to the Decrees of the Prelates assembled in a Body But why an Implicit Obedience Because say they the Church cannot subsist without it But why cannot it subsist without it Cannot it subsist by resuming the Ministry out of such hands and putting it into better Cannot it without going so far subsist by separating between good and bad food No they tell you it cannot because it is obliged to receive implicitely whatever the Prelates in a Body shall deliver What way of disputing call you this if it be not quite to swerve from good sense and reason and to be lost in an impertinent maze For is not this a perfect round first to prove an Implicite Obedience because the Church cannot otherwise subsist and then to prove the Church cannot otherwise subsist without this Obedience because men ought to obey implicitely VI. But let us proceed in drawing our Consequences And being we hit upon the point of the Implicit Obedience they exact to the decisions of Bishops and that Sovereign and Absolute Authority wherewith they would invest them let us try if this can agree with the Principles we have establish'd I meddle not now with those other reasons that might be made use of you will find them in part in the Book I quoted just now All I shall say is that since no man can have a distinct knowledg of the True Believers and that the True Church consists of such alone no man consequently can be secure that this Body of Prelates whether considered single or whether as convened in a Council are the true Church Yes but says one they represent the true Church I agree with you so far as the True Believers are still under their Ministry But representing the True Church does not presently endue them with its Opinions and Affections The true Church in conferring her Ministry upon men does not confer upon them withal either true Faith or true Regeneration much less perfect Infallibility Hence whatever determinations they give are still subject to an examination If these prove confermable to God's Word it is our duty not only to embrace them but further to respect â—he Body of Ministers as the true Church Representative because they have exprest her sense and Charity will carry us still further and incline us to esteem them true Believers because they have acted as such But when their divisions are found to disagree with God's Word we are to look upon them as men that have abused their ministry If this happen in things not plainly interesting the Conscience their ministry must be born with and the liberty of separating the clean from the unclean natural to every Believer made use of If they do interest the Conscience we groan under their ministry we pray to God we implore succors from above still using the Liberty of Conscience to refuse the Evil and retain the Good But if this Body of Prelates-proceed to violent taking away this necessary and indispensable Liberty of Conscience and reduce the faithful to this hard streight either to be damned for false Doctrine in slavishly following their Ministers errors or damn'd for dissimulation in pretending to follow them Then the true Believers ought to look upon them as men that have stript themselves of the right of the Ministry to oppose them to take it from them and repose the trust in other hands It is evident then the supreme Authority we contend about cannot take place because it is continually in danger of being invested in worldly men to whom it cannot in any case belong And so we should be continually in danger of mistaking That for the Church Representative which neither is really nor can possibly be so VII The seventh Use to be made of what we have advanced is the right apprehending of some expressions used by us viz. That the Church is corrupted that the state of the Church hath been interrupted and the like so as to reconcile these with Jesus Christ's Promises which import not only the perpetual existence but also the perpetual holiness and incorruption of the Church Now for that corruption attributed by us to the Church I say that whereas the Promises of Christ concern the true Church that is True Believers only our expression on the contrary respects the Church according to that Idea of Charity we form of it including all external Professors which are ordinarily call'd the Visible Church 'T is of the Church taken in this last notion that we say she is corrupted for the whole Body being made up as we have seen of good and bad man it hath come to pass that the wicked are mightily increased and the spirit of the World which is a spirit of error and superstition shewed it self in an eminent manner But we do not understand true Believers to be corrupted only so far forth as they may possibly have contracted some tincture of infirmity by conversing with the others And for that interruption of the state of the Church mentioned in our Confession of Faith where we say That the state of the Church being interrupted it was necessary it should be raised up again out of its ruines and desolation The meaning of those expressions is not what M. de Condom pretends that the true Church ceases to exist or that its Ministry was quite extinct in those times which we call times of desolation and ruine for we make a distinction between the Church and the state of the Church The Church is the true Believers making profession of Truth and Christian Piety and a real Holiness under a Ministry which dispenses all nourishment necessary for spiritual life without keeping back any It s natural and proper state is to be freed as much as its militant condition can admit from the impure mixture of prophane worldly men not to be covered over and as it were swallowed up with this Chaff and Tares to have a pure Ministry not incumbred with errors with false worship superstitious customs a Ministry in the hands of good men who are in possession of it by honest methods and set a good example to others This State is what we think hath been interrupted having seen strange opinions brought into Religion Superstitious propagated the Ministry invaded by men neither deserving nor capable of it and that were advanced by scandalous and unlawful methods having seen vices openly predominant among
Churchmen the Pulpits more zealous for Tales and Legends than the Word of God The Schools busying themselves with ridiculous Questions and Curiosities the Sacraments burdened with strange Ceremonies the instruction and edification of mens Souls wretchedly neglected and in a word the Gospel liberty changed into a temporal slavery This is what we mean by the state of the Church being interrupted this the ruine and desolation we bewail The Church hath not ceased to exist nor did she perfectly lose her visibility or her Ministry God forbid But both she and her Ministry have seen the natural state they ought to continue in changed and interrupted VIII Apply these principles now to our Reformation and then Sir you will discern that granting this supposition to be true that the Body of the Prelates invested in the ministry of the Church in our Fathers days and assembled in the Trent Council supposing I say that they delivered such determinations in points of Faith as are incompatible with Salvation Granting it to be true that they took away Christian Liberty by Anathematizing all who should refuse to believe and submit to those determinations as they did and by adding to all this violence and compulsion our Fathers had reason to look upon them as Ministers that had justly deprived themselves of all right to exercise their Ministry over them by such ill conduct and to give that power of the Ministry to others They had reason to look upon the party that adhered to these Prelates with such obstinate stiffness as a Body or Society of which a man could not positively say That is the particular Body wherein God nourishes and cherishes his Faithful and Elect. IX Hence likewise it follows that our Fathers are wrongfully charged with making a Schism and separating from the Church For it being sure that the Church consists of the Faithful only and besides that we are of opinion the Trent Bishops themselves broke the band of external Communion with sound Believers and brought things to such a pass that our Ancestors could not possibly joyn with them in the same Assemblies it is evident They were the Beginners of the Schism the Authors and makers of this lamentable division X. It signifies nothing to alledg that they were possest of the Ministry by an exterior and ordinary succession for the Ministry is not such a thing as men when once possest of can never forfeit their right to tho they abuse it never so much They enjoyed it by an external succession 't is confest but this succession with respect to mens persons continues no longer than we can say The faithful are under their Ministry When we cannot be sure of that any more from thenceforth the Prelates have lost their right and such a succession afterwards would be but as the succession of death to a disease or of night to twilight I do not say the Ministry it self is extinct God forbid but I say in such a case it devolves of right to that other part of the Society where the Faithful are The reason of which Truth is this That the Ministers are naturally the Church Representative And all their Authority is derived from the Body of the Faithful When therefore it happens that they break the band of external communion which joyns them to those Faithful it is plain they represent them no longer and the holding their Authority over them afterwards is a force and usurpation XI Lastly From the Principles we have established it appears how vain and ungrounded a scandal it is which the Controvertists of the Romish Communion are continually upbraiding us with of setting up a new Church For being the Church according to Scripture sound sense and the opinions of the Fathers is nothing else but the Society of true Believers To have set up a new Church we must have brought in a new Faith different from what Jesus Christ delivered to the World If they can convict us of being guilty in this point we are heartily content they should not only say we have formed a new Church but that we have formed a false perverse naughty Society and draw all the consequences against us that can be naturally drawn from that Concession But if we on the contrary have only rejected new Doctrines a worship that Christian Religion never was acquainted with and Errors brought into the Church since it was first established if we have only refined the Ministry and restored the Gospel to its natural lustre they ought to be just in acknowledgment that God hath made use of us for the preservation of his true Ancient Primitive Church and the rescuing it from oppression If it be true that the Trent Council have made Articles of Faith of such Doctrines and Practices as were never revealed to us by Christ may we not say that That hath set up a new Religion and consequently a new Church Let us judge of one another by this Rule of right reason and conscientiously examine the truth of what hath been done on both sides for upon such an examination the justice or injustice of taxing us with Novelty will depend THE SECOND PART OF Monsieur de CONDOM's Discourse EXAMINED THUS much I thought fit to say in Answer to the First part of M. de Condom's Discourse The Second will not detain us very long They made me says he some Objections concerning the frequent revolts of the people of Israel who had so often forsaken God the Kings and all the people as the Holy Scripture speaks during which the publick worship was so extinct that Elijah thought himself the only servant of God till he learnt from God himself that he had reserved to himself seven thousand men which had not bowed the knee unto Baal To this I answer'd proceeds he that for what regarded Elijah there was no difficulty since 't was apparent from the very words that it concern'd only Israel where Elijah prophesied and that the Divine Worship was so far from being at that time extinct in Judah that 't was there under the reign of Josaphat in the greatest lustre it had been since Solomon's time I shall not say here that the Divine Worship under the reign of Josaphat was not in such great lustre neither but that the Scripture informs us The high places were not taken away for the people offered still and burnt incense in the high places which was a worship forbidden by God But not to insist upon this I say in the first place This instance is a very good proof that the greatest part of this exteriour Society professing themselves to be the people of God that is ten tribes out of twelve were corrupted to that degree that Elijah complain'd he only was left Which shews that we must not always conclude Truth and Purity to be of that side where the number is most nor suppose it impossible for what we call the Visible Church to be corrupted at least as to the greatest part of Professors Secondly I
reprehended and detested the impieties of the People but separated not from the Communion The meaning of which is that they separated negatively tho not positively they refused to partake of the Impieties in the publick Worship but they did not set up another sort of publick Worship distinct by themselves I grant it But then we must also grant that when the Worship is corrupted the Church may subsist by means of such a Negative Separation and that this is sufficient for its preservation Now this is exactly what we are of Opinion was done during the Corruptions of the Latin Ministry all along before the Reformation But still it may be said These Prophets never proceeded so far as a positive Separation and you have I answer The Reason they never separated positively was peculiar to themselves as M. de Condom himself acknowledges to wit that over and above the real and spiritual Covenant God had entred into with such as were true Believers among that People there was besides another Exterior and Temporal one in which the whole Nation were concern'd founded upon their being the Blood and Progeny of Abraham and all bearing about them the Mark of this Covenant to wit Circumcision in their Flesh so that the true Believers were obliged upon this account to continue in Communion with the People and could not separate from them positively by reason of that common Covenant which they might not break But the case is otherwise with the Christian Church which hath but one Covenant with God and that a real and spiritual one of true Faith and sincere Regeneration when therefore we can no longer maintain this Covenant by living amongst a People and under a Ministry which is become contrary thereto there lies a necessity upon us of separating by a positive Separation And yet M. de Condom pretends to make some advantage of this very thing He says The Succession of that Ancient People was kept up by carnal Generation and so tho the Priests and almost all the People should have prevaricated the State of Gods People subsisted always in an exterior Form whether they would or no. But 't is not so with the new People whose exterior Form consists in nothing but the Profession of Jesus Christ's Doctrine So that if the Confession of the true Faith should be extinct for one only moment the Church which has no Succession but by the Continuance of this Profession would be wholly extinct without any possibility of ever rising again either in its People or Pastors but by a new Mission I confess That carnal Generation was in that Ancient People enough to keep up their Succession in Quality of Gods People with Relation to that temporal Covenant common to them all Tho it be true too that this Quality was but very imperfectly discerned in times of general Prevarications because if they were then Gods temporal People they were a vicious and prevaricating People But I say that carnal Generation was not enough to maintain among them a Succession with respect to the spiritual Covenant because the Succession here could be preserved no other way but by a Participation of the same Faith and the same Charity Now the Covenant in which the new People live is not any longer a carnal one but purely and solely Spiritual and consequently the Succession in it can only consist in this perpetual Participation of one and the same Faith and one and the same Charity In this particular the Condition of both old and new People are alike As therefore in that Ancient People there did still continue a Succession of Faith and Charity tho the publick Worship and ordinary Ministry were full of strange Corruptions in like manner hath such a Succession always continued in the new even in the midst of all Corruptions God had then his methods of teaching the reserved and keeping them from partaking in the publick Prevarications the same he hath still and useth to the same purpose altho the Ministry and publick Worship have not preserved their Purity I confess should a full and perfect desertion of Christianity ever have happened throughout all the Christian World and not one true Believer be left upon the face of the Earth a man might say the Church had been utterly extinct But blessed be God it never came to that We acknowledg that God hath all along preserved his Remnant according to the Election of Grace We acknowledg too that the publick Ministry was never so totally corrupted but still all that was necessary for the Instruction of Believers was so far kept up that the spiritual Succession was always preserved intire by receiving from the Ministers hands nourishment sufficient unto spiritual Life on the one hand and casting away all the evil and impure Mixtures of the Ministry on the other hand and this is that negative Separation we spoke of before The exterior Form of Jesus Christs true Church does not so absolutely consist in the Ministries making profession of Faith pure and void of Error that it cannot otherwise subsist any longer I confess when this is done the Church is in a happy Condition and if I may so say a Condition of Health But when this is not done the exterior Form does not presently perish upon that account because this consists in our being able to say That is the Body where God nourishes and cherishes his true Believers as I have already shewn when treating of my second question Could we no longer say thus the Church would have lost its external Form and its Succession have ceased to be visible But this might at all times be said even when the Ministry and publick Worship was most corrupted and so the Churches visible Succession was never quite lost It hath indeed been mightily lessened and obscured in Proportion to the Errors that prevailed in the Ministry and this was the Churches Condition of Misery it 's sick and languishing Condition which nevertheless went not so far as to hinder this Succession M. de Condom goes on I will not say the true Faith and true Worship of God could be wholly abolisht in the People of Israel so as that God had no more any true Servants on Earth But I find on the contrary 't is clear that maugre the Corruption God still reserved to himself a sufficient number of Servants who participated not in the Idolarty Herein we agree for neither do we say That the true Faith and true Worship could ever have been wholly abolisht among Christians but on the contrary that maugre the Corruption God hath always reserved to himself a sufficient number of Servants who have not participated in the Prevarications of the rest So far the case is the same 'T is not to be imagined proceeds he that Gods Servants and the true Faith were preserved only in secret but that in all the Succession of the Ancient People the true Doctrine always shone forth For there was a continual Succession of Prophets
grounds for upbraiding them with it as they did That the Protestants principles were not liable to the same objection who though they disown a blind obedience and entire submission do yet retain such external means as are most proper and expedient for preserving the unity of the Faith And whereas M. de Condom pretended that without entire obedience it was possible that as many several Religions might start up as there are Parishes 't is confest this may come to pass if we speak with respect to men only notwithstanding the Order and Ecclesiastical Assemblies be kept up because the mind of man is of its self subject to infinite Errors But in respect of God this cannot fall out so for he by his blessing on this external Order and the Communication of one and the same spirit to his true Believers and Elect does by this sure and infallible means preserve them in the unity of the same Faith and consequently of the same Church That Faith being not an humane but a Divine thing none but God alone can either produce or preserve it in mens hearts And this he infallibly does in the hearts of his Elect by his Spirit and such external means of the Ministry as himself hath appointed For Paul planteth and Apollo watereth but God giveth the increase Next he came to speak of the Deputies nominated by the Synod of Sainte-foy to confer with the Lutherans and said That he was extreamly pleased with what M. de Condom had confest even now That they never intended to give them a power of turning all things topsy turvey as he had ingeniously exprest it but that recourse must be had to the persons commissioning and their ratification obtained That he very humbly thankt him for this sincere acknowledgment which as to this particular resolved the whole Question so that this Act could not now be alledged any more for the blind obedience pretended to be infer'd from it That besides this his accusation against the Synod for consenting to change their Confession of Faith if taken in M. de Condom's sense vanished into nothing For there ought a distinction to be made between what is essential in it and what is not The essential part of the Confession consists in the things themselves called Articles or points of Faith and that which is not essential consists in the terms and modes of expression That the Synod had Authority to consent that the expressions in the Confession should be altered that other things might be inserted which might illustrate and explain it if this appeared to be useful for the reducing men that had deviated from it But the Synod never took upon them to alter any essential part of the Confession for it continues in this respect unalterable so far forth as it is agreable to the Word of God Mr. Claude concluding his discourse M. de Condom replied in the first place that notwithstanding what Mr. Claude said a little before concerning the Order observed by the Discipline it did however enjoyn that such as refused to acquiesce in the decisions of a National Synod should be cut off from the Church and that the Synod of Dort had actually cut off the Arminians he desired therefore to know of Mr Claude whether they were justly and lawfully cut off Mr. Claude answered that in his opinion the Synod of Dorts proceedings were very just M. de Condom told him This was all the Church of Rome desired that she also acknowledged her self under an Obligation to judg according to the word of God but this was not the matter in dispute The main business was about the Sense and Explanation of that word and that it was the Churches Province to give this Explanation and private men's to rest satified with it and if they did not the Church dealt justly in excommunicating them That it was thus the Protestants had been excommunicated in the Council of Trent As concerning the Letter of Mission to the National Synods is it not said he a plain trick to swear Submission to them upon supposal or condition that their Determinations shall be agreeable to Gods word This is all mere trifling What say you to it Sir Mr. Claude said there was no trick at all and he could discover nothing that was irregular in it If I have a right notion of your Doctrine replied M. de Condom you hold that a private Persons may doubt of the Judgment of the Church even when given in its last and highest Court of Jurisdiction We do hold said Mr. Claude that no man can have an absolute certainty of Faith that an Ecclesiastical Assembly shall give right Determinations and upon this account that men may be allow'd to doubt But withal that men should notwithstanding presume in favour of such an Assembly and in this respect we cannot properly call it doubting as hoping and believing that it will judg a right For Jesus Christ hath promised all that seek shall find and we ought to take it for granted that they will discharge their duty in seeking aright till Experience shews the contrary There is therefore an assurance of Charity and Equity that in some Sense excludes doubt But when we see Assemblies governed by Factions Cabals and temporal Interests then sure we have a great deal of reason to doubt as seeing men that have forsaken their Duty and consequently are such as cannot hope for any advantage from the blessing of God upon them Let me beg of you Sir said M. de Condom then That we may let alone what is good for nothing but to cast dust in our Eyes What you said just now of Cabals and Factions and private Interests is of no use in the World and only serves to perplex the matter I would know of you put the case there appeared nothing at all of Factions Cabals nor Interest in an Assembly but that all their proceedings were orderly and regular whether its Decisions ought to be received without examining them No Sir said Mr. Claude Why then Sir said he I was in the right to tell you that all your talk of Factions and Cabals signifies nothing That does not follow neither repli'd Mr. Claude for notwithstanding there appear not any thing to weaken a mans Presumptions that the Assembly will discharge their duty faithfully and that for ought we can discover to the contrary all things are carried regularly yet still this is no more than a humane Presumption not able to give any certainty of belief and consequently not precluding our Examination But when we see Disorder and Corruption manifestly prevail in an Assembly we can no longer presume in favour of such a one and instead of hoping the best we must fear the worst that can come from it So that it is not without ground that I spoke of Cabals and Factions Here M. de Condom resuming the former method of his Discourse said It was false that the Independents did absolutely throw off all Ecclesiastical Assemblies for
also preserve all the Priviledges of Jesus Christs Church All this is exactly what we assert in this case The Abbot of Palermo's opinion was likewise common to many of the Schools Occam a famous Doctor among the Schoolmen of the fourteenth Age hath composed a Dialogue on this Subject where among other questions he discusses these six principal ones 1. Whether a Pope that is Canonically chosen can afterwards turn Heretick 2. Whether the Colledg of Cardinals may fall into Heresie 3. Whether it be possible for the Pope and Cardinals together to fall into it 4. Whether it be so for the Church of Rome and Apostolick See to fall into it 5. Whether a General Council may fall into it 6. Whether even the Body of Christians may fall into it He affirms that as many held the Negative in these Points so there were a great many too that held the affirmative and he gives you the reasons urged by both sides for their several opinions I know very well that he was engaged in that silly quarrel between John the 22 d and the Franciscan Friers which took up almost the whole life of that Pope to know whether the Friers had any proper right to the bread they eat or only the bare use of it and whether Jesus Christ and his Apostles had likewise any proper right to the things they used But this is no argument why such an Authors Testimony should not be unexceptionable when he asserts as matter of fact that the six forementioned questions were disputed pro and con among the Learned men of his time There is likewise a testimony of John Francis Picus Mirandula which flourished in the beginning of the Fifteenth Age which he gives us in his Theoremes concerning the Faith After having said something to their opinion who make either a Pope or a Council Infallible he adds these words Others there are that oppose this opinion by saying that Councils may err and actually bave erred as for instance the Council of Arimini the second Council of Ephesus that of Constantinople concerning Images and that of Aix la Chapelle about the marriage of Virgins that were forced And if these say they have erred others may err as well as they whereupon some hold that such General Councils as the Pope does not preside in by his Authority may err but those where he does cannot To which others return that the Council of Ephesus was lawfully convened that the Pope's Legates presided in it and yet the Faith was subverted there and the regulation of this very matter was it that moved Pope Leo to call the Council of Chalcedon They say further that their pretending to find out remedies for knowing when two Councils clash whether of the two a man ought to hold to is an evident sign that General Councils may err It is certain then that the Doctrine we now assert when we affirm that even the most numerous Assemblies are liable to error that they may consist of such men as shall not be of the true Church and consequently may fall off from their function is neither a new Doctrine nor any opinion we are driven to for the justfying our Reformation but an old Doctrine which the evidence of Truth hath always suggested to sincere and unbiassed men So that if M. de Meaux had but pleased to reflect a little upon this he would not have said as he did That it was a Monster the birth whereof was reserved for the time of the New Reformation It is convenient sometimes to be a little more advised and sparing in passing ones judgment It would questionless be very foul to conclude form what hath been just now said against the absolute Authority and Infallibility of Ecclesiastical Assemblies that we quite cast off all these humane Orders for the external guidance and government of the Church To six any such opinions as this upon us would be the unjustest thing in the world Our Confessions of Faith our Discipline and the Writings of our Authors as well as our constant practice in all places are a vindication of us in this particular beyond all scruple or exception First then we hold the Ministry to be of Divine Institution and consequently become necessary by the necessity of a Command and that tho the use of it is not absolutely necessary by the necessity of the means for the Existence of the Church it is however of such excellent use and advantage in order to the preserving and propagating of the Church that to go about to take it away would be a manifest impiety Secondly We are of opinion that in matters of Discipline relating to the publick such as the manner and form of Religious Assemblies of Administring the Sacraments and others of this kind these should be left to the determination of Ecclesiastical Assemblies and provided they bring in no Rite offensive to the Conscience or contrary to the nature of the Evangelical Worship an absolute obedience is due to them Further yet We allow these Ecclesiastical Assemblies a power of Censuring private persons and proceeding to the last and highest Censure that of Excommunication And although we make no question at all but this power may sometimes be abused by them and unjust sentences pronounced yet we think that out of veneration for the Order a man ought to suffer such to be executed upon him provided this do not engage us in any thing that may wound a good conscience As for matters of Faith Worship and general Rules for ordering mens Manners we are perswaded that these Assemblies continuing the subordination to one another may not only attain to the knowledg of them by the Word of God but that they must and ought to do so for preventing the encrease of error and the preserving Gods truth in its genuine purity It is part of their office and business to restrain the exorbitances of mens minds to help the weak and to the utmost of their power cherish and maintain publick peace in the midst of this Society But because on one hand the persons making these Assemblies are neither inspired nor infallible nor have any power over mens consciences and on the other hand because no body can be sure that they are good men and will discharge their duty faithfully there being so many several sorts of by-respects that influence men when the Spirit of God does not guide them we think it a very faulty indifference and a manifest slighting a man's own salvation to reveive their decisions blindfold and upon trust without any trial or examination of them at all But still though we think this examination highly just and indispensably necessary yet we think withal it is to be used with abundance of caution Besides that it must be undertaken in the fear of God and with a disposition full of modesty and Christian humility besides that we must beg for grace from above and not presume upon our own
abilities besides that we must bring along with us not only charitable but reverent and respectful thoughts of such Assemblies and judg favourably of them till we have manifest conviction of the contrary Besides all this I say the ignorant sort of people must not be too rash in offering to interpose their judgments about matters which either are not plainly exprest in Scripture or naturally and necessarily deduced from thence They must satisfie themselves with using these two ways The Scriptures being silent And the clear and plain instructions to be met with there From its being silent they must learn to reject what it does not teach for strange and novel Doctrines For whatever is not in Scripture is not of Divine Revelation and nothing that is not revealed by God can be the object of Faith By the clear and plain Instructions to be met with there they must learn to embrace the Doctrines necessary for Salvation and to reject all things contrary to the same as dangerous and destructive Errors And this is sufficient for the more ignorant sort of people As for other particulars for which no certain rule can be given neither from the Scriptures being silent nor from the plain and clear instructions contained in it nor by natural inferences deduced from thence before they either receive them or condemn them they must endeavour to get information by such means as God hath discovered and established in his Church and in the mean time entertain a good opinion of the Assemblies determinations Thus they will preserve their Faith incorrupt and sufficient for Salvation they will pay to Assemblies their due respects and keep themselves in the peace and unity of the Church If the Gentlemen of the Romish Communion are not content with this but still would have us believe whatever such Assemblies may determine blindfold we must beg of them to consider That to exclude thus all manner of amendment is to open a mighty inlet to Error and Superstition 't is an exposing believers to a manifest danger of having their Faith corrupted and themselves damned in a word 't is perfectly to ruine Christianity unless the goodness of God interpose with some remedy Will not these Gentlemen who are so ready at exclaiming against the inconveniencies that may possibly proceed from our principle at last open their eyes and take a view of what their own hath actually produced already Transubstantiation Purgatory Indulgences Merit of Good-works worshipping of Images and Relicks Service in an unknown Tongue and a thousand other devotions which have no great appearance of wisdom in them These are the products of their pretended Infallibility and all this they are forced to defend now because they would not lose the point of an implicit obedience And now if I were speaking any thing here concerning the occasion of this dispute between the Bishop of Meaux and me or the Circumstances that went before or followed after our Conference the world will easily perceive I do it because this Bishop hath already been at the trouble of giving the publick a sufficient account of them One word only I must say which respects one of our Auditors Mr. Cotton who no doubt would have received a better Character from M. de Meaux had he been so happy as to be known to him more particularly Mr. Cotton is a Gentleman of great honour and wants neither apprehension nor judgment he understands his Religion and though dispute be no part of his business is well versed in the main Controversies between us If his modesty or some other considerations prevailed upon him to say something that lookt like declining to engage in dispute with M. de Meaux I do not think he ought to have taken his words in their strict and literal sense As for the difference between our two Relations I leave it as M. de Meaux hath done to the Reader 's judgment He hath observed very wisely that let him say what he would of me it was in my power to say the same of him That all our Auditors were interested on one side or other and that the world hath nothing at all to do with our proceedings To all which let me add that I will not give any occasion for any private quarrel with a person I honour to that degree that I do M. de Meaux The only thing I need say more is concerning the method I have observed in this Book It is divided into Two Parts The first contains an Answer to the Instruction given Mademoiselle de Duras by this Bishop the day before our Conference together with an Examination of his Reflexions upon that Answer beginning at the ninth and going on to the thirteenth inclusively The second part contains a Relation of what past in our Conference with an Examination of M. de Meaux's Reflexions thereupon which are his eight first This method in my opinion is very natural And now as I have made it my business to be very exact and past nothing in his whole Book over without giving a direct Answer to it so I hope that when he shall think fit to set Pen to Paper against me next he will be as exact and apply himself as close to the pinch of the Question and not imagine as men commonly do that provided they can but pick up here and there some loose passages and from thence start a few difficulties and objections there need no more be done and this must go for a full Answer I beseech God to shed forth his Blessing upon an undertaking wherein the only Ends I proposed to my self were his Glory and the Illustration of the Truth Thus much I am encouraged to hope from his mercy and that as he hath hitherto preserved his little Ship the Church in the midst of the billows and storms of the world he will still continue to preserve her as he hath promised even to the end of the world AN ADVERTISEMENT FROM THE TRANSLATOR TO THE READER WHEN persons of M. de Meaux's and Mr. Claude's Character engage and in a Controversy so important too as that between the Church of Rome and those who have separated from her Men must naturally be desirous to know the management and issue of such a debate For besides what expectations the reputation of their Learning and Judgment might raise This is a Cause that scarce any body in our part of the World can be supposed perfectly indifferent in Every Reader must look on These not only as Disputants but Advocates and even they who design no more than the gratifying their curiosity by perusing such Conferences do yet insensibly find themselves affected with some degree of Concern The particular Argument insisted upon here is likewise of the highest consequence for it cannot but be a mighty help and direction to know exactly how far we are obliged to comply with the Churches Decisions in matters of Faith In what Cases we may venture to depend upon our own Collections from Reason and
Scripture and in what we must renounce these in deference to a higher Authority Whether Councils and their pretended Infallibility ought to silence all even the most just scruples against whatever they shall please to determine or whether Almighty God have not ordered the matter so that without some recourse had to our private Judgments even These cannot be received as a Rule of Faith to us but all imaginable care and an impartial examination of the thing always presupposed the decisive voice does of necessity belong at last to a mans own self M. de Meaux we see took a great deal of pains by a previous discourse upon this Topick to prepare his Proselyte for the ensuing Conference and he was no doubt in the right to pitch upon this as the main Argument for her Conversion It being indeed the very foundation and support of all the points in dispute between us the best and most cunningly contrived expedient to make men first embrace and then persevere in Error and Superstition For Protestants are usually apt to be squeamish and cannot digest Opinions contrary to Sense and Reason they sometimes grow so bold too as to question their Adversaries integrity Now what can be more satisfactory in such Circumstances than to be invited into the Communion of a Church which you are told in all even her most absurd Decrees is continually assisted with the unerring guidance of the Holy Ghost and put under a happy impossibility of deceiving her Members tho illnatured people should imagine her so wicked to desire and endeavour it This then being fixed as a first principle the understanding is sufficiently subdued for humane reasonings to interpose afterwards would be impertinent and sawcy and so the harshest and most unpalatable Doctrines go glibly down by the help of this excellent Vehicle the Churches Authority and Infallibility The same method is observable among the Missionaries here in England who after having tried us first with general schemes of the disputable points and then endeavoured to establish some of them particularly to little or no purpose do now at last take sanctuary in the Churches Despotick power and begin to seem sensible that either this or nothing must stand them in any stead The debate upon this Head first began to grow warm upon occasion of the Royal Papers which because bad money is not priviledged to pass unquestioned tho it have the King's stamp upon it were considered with a Judgment and Modesty becoming both a sincere zeal for Truth and a dutiful honour for the Person whose Royal Name they bore The several Answers Vindications and Replies upon this Subject have since been followed by M. de Condom's account of his Conference as suiting very well the business then in hand And when once the World had seen That it was so reasonable Mr. Claude should be heard what he could say for himself that I should not think this Translation needed any Apology or Introduction were it not for some Objections which I foresee it may be liable to These therefore I am concerned to remove that so the Book may be read without prejudice and not expose men to mistaken notions of things for want of a short but necessary Advertisement In the first place I desire the Reader to take notice that it is not to be expected Mr. Claude should in every circumstance express himself as the Church of England would do at this day The necessity of reforming from the Corruptions of Rome was easily discerned in several Countries and each National Church having sufficient power to reform it self was just and wise in asserting that rightful Authority upon so emergent an occasion But tho all did the thing yet all not conferring together they did it not by the same methods nor with like moderation and prudence It was enough that they all agreed in the main points and for the less material ones that they maintained such a Charity as not magisterially to censure or exclude one another for these little differences This was the very way whereby the Communion is still preserved inviolable among the Protestant Churches in all Nations and is a mighty argument that they retain the true spirit of Meekness and Christian Candor Therefore in the writings of Forreigners we must always make allowances for the Genius of that particular Church whereof they are Members and not be extremely nice and critical except where we find a disagreement in some very substantial point The Reformed Gallican Church and we are perfectly of one Judgment in all the most considerable parts of this dispute concerning the Authority of the Church As That she hath no right at all to require an absolute and implicit obedience to her determinations That the Scriptures are the only aud perfect Rule of Faith That every Man is concerned and obliged to examine by this Rule whatever is imposed upon him as an Article of Faith and if he finds the Doctrine conformable thereto readily and heartily to embrace and adhere to it but if evidently repugnant by all means to reject it That no Councils even the most General are to be received any further than they proceed in correspondence with this Diving Word That they may and actually have erred in deviating from it and consequently their Decrees ought to undergo some Examination before a Man complies with them But that notwithstanding this possibility of failing we ought to entertain very reverend and charitable presumptions in favour of such Assemblies and as not to cast them off without the clearest evidence of their having perverted the Truth so where no such evidence appears to submit with the most respectful humility imaginable looking upon them as excellent means for the preservation of the Christain Faith in its Vnity and genuine Purity After so punctual an agreement in matters of the greatest consequence what can it signify if in some few others of less consideration and more remote from the main business there seem a small disparity Mens Judgments must have some room left to exercise freely in and diversity of Opinions in Circumstantials like Divisions in Musick may very well be admitted without breaking the main Cords or doing the harmony any prejudice at all 'T is confest the Divines abroad have taken up some notions distinct from ours and particularly concerning the Church its Visibility Ministry Constitution and Discipline and it might well seene strange if Mr. Claude should so far forget his Education and Country as not to scatter some of these in his Writings But I hope Englishmen may enjoy the benefit of his Discourses without being obliged to subscribe every sentence or espouse every punctilio contained in them Whether the Gentlemen of the Romish perswasion relying upon the Authority of M. de Meaux his name called in so potent an Auxiliary from beyond the Seas out of a just diffidence of their own strength here They best can tell This I am sure of that it was but Justice to Mr. Claude and the Cause he
signification When we say in plain terms the Vniversal Church nothing can be more natural than to understand the whole company of Gods children as opposed to the men of the world and children of this generation Nothing more natural to Faith and especially a Confession of Faith than to interpret a term expressing the object of Faith not in a restrained sense which gives only a partial Idea of the thing nor in an ambiguous sense which gives a confused and doubtful one but in a sense that shall be perspicuous and full As to the common use of the word M. de Condom must pardon me if I say there is a fallacy in his argument For supposing it true which really it is not that all Christians of this and some ages last past had confined the term Vniversal Church to the Church at present upon Earth suppose the pretended Reformed to use M. de Condom's own expression did commonly understand this term so yet still 't is a trick to attempt to adjust the sense of the Creed by that which some latter ages have fixt upon it 'T is just as if I should go about to explain the terms of our language by what will be in vogue two or three hundred years hence For who does not see that the acceptation alters and words are mightily removed from their first and genuine signification What I have alledged from St. Austin and the Trent-Catechism plainly convict M. de Condom of a mistake either in matter of fact or point of right If the matter of fact deposited before be true That all Christians understand by the Church a Society making profession c. He is out in point of right for St. Austin and the Trent-Catechism shew that the Church in our Creed is to be otherwise understood But if this Rule hold that the word in the Creed must be taken in such a sence as is most in use among Christians he errs in matter of fact for St. Austin and the Catechism taking it as we see 't is manifest the Christians of their times did not understand it as M. de Condom does of a Society making profession to believe c. It is questionless more reasonable to say that the term Vniversal Church in our Creed should be interpreted in a way most agreeable to Scripture stile but this very thing quite overthrows M. de Condom's pretensions For the Scripture when speaking of the Church as the Creed does with regard to its Universality does always mean the whole body of the Faithful and not one part only Thus St. Paul hath taken it in that excellent passage God hath given Jesus Christ to be the Head of the Church which is his body the fulness of him that filleth all in all In the fifth Chapter of that Epistle he repeats it no less than six times in the same sense The husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the Church The Church is subject to Christ as the wife is to her husband Christ loved the Church and gave himself for it that he might present it to himself a glorious Church not having spot or wrinkle Christ nourisheth and cherisheth the Church This is a great mystery concerning Christ and the Church Thus again Col. 1. Christ is the head of the body the Church who is the beginning the first-born from the dead So lastly Heb. 12. Ye are come to Mount Sion the city of the living God the heavenly Jerusalem and to an innumerable company of Angels to the general assembly and Church of the first-born which are written in Heaven For the Apostle does not mean the Church Triumphant only as M. de Condom would perswade us but the whole body of those whom God hath enrolled in the Book of his Predestination whether already taken up to Glory or such as are already justify'd and sanctified upon Earth but not yet glorify'd or those whom he will call effectually hereafter and justifie in order to their Glorification I conclude this Question with one observation which ought not to give M. de Condom any offence because the greatest demonstration of respect to an adversary is the removing every little objection made by him I observe then that his Argument which contains all this part of his Discourse neither does nor according to the rules of reasoning can conclude any thing at all He would know the meaning of Vniversal Church in our Creed We must take this term says he in the most proper signification and such as is most in use among Christians I grant it Now all Christians as he goes on by the name of Church understand a society c. and for this I desire no other witnesses than the Pretended Reform'd themselves Who does not perceive that this concludes nothing He should have said All Christians understand by the Church Vniversal a society c. and of this I desire no other witnesses c. Thus he should have delivered himself if he would argue regularly All this while M. de Condom's proof all through the sequel of his discourse runs not upon the term in his Proposition The Vniversal Church but on that single term the Church between which there is a wide difference for the Church may well be taken in a sense that the Vniversal Church can by no means admit of Indeed had M. de Condom said All Christians by the Church Vniversal understand a Society making profession c. and of this I desire no other witnesses than the Pretended Reformed themselves we should have answered him That the Pretended Reform'd never understood by the Vniversal Church a Society making profession to believe c. because according to their Tenets the Church Universal rose a great way further than this Society making profession c. So that we should immediately have put a stop to his Argument and he could never have effected what he hoped for from it Quest 2. Whether M. de Condom's be a good and sufficient definition of the Church upon Earth A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his Word By this decision of our first question I think Sir it appears that M. de Condom had no ground for accusing us of taking that Article of our Creed concerning the Vniversal Church in a wrong sense Let us now proceed to the second Enquiry whether M. de Condom have given a good and sufficient definition of the Church upon Earth in calling it A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his Word Now this Question being of such mighty importance that upon the determination oâ— it the whole Controversie betwixt us and the Romaâ—â—â—â—â— touching the Church does entirely depend I was amazed to see 〈◊〉 he did not think fit to clear it either to Mademoiselle de Duras or 〈◊〉 other Proselytes for whom the perusal of this Discourse was 〈◊〉 Methinks when men go
a full and final resolution of the case shall be given by the Word of God and such as refuse to submit to this shall be excommunicated Secondly he produced a formulary of a Letter Missive to the National Synods framed in the Synod of Vitre and which was to be a pattern for all the Provinces to follow for the future by which they promise submission to all the resolutions of that holy Assembly to obey and execute every particular of them as being perswaded says the Formulary that God will preside there and lead you into all truth and equity by his Holy Spirit and by the Rule of his Word Besides that he produced an Act of the National Synod held at Charenton in the Year 1644. where the Independents opinion is condemned who will not allow that particular Congregations should depend upon the Authority of Colloquies and Synods but that every one should be governed by Laws within it self Now this Act expresly declares that that Sect opens a door to all manner of irregularities and extravagances that it deprives men of all means of remedying disorders and would if admitted make as many several Religions as Parishes Lastly he produced an Act of the National Synod at Sainte-foy by which upon occasion of some overtures for a re-union with those of the Ausburg Confession the Synod assigns Deputies to go and confer with them to whom full power is granted to agree upon and determine whatever points should be debated whether in matters of Doctrine or any other thing that might concern the Good and Peace of all the Churches even so far as to consent that their Decisions should be inserted in their Confessions of Faith From all which he inferred That even those of Mr. Claude's Religion did acknowledg a necessity that in order to the preservation of Unity in the Church men should submit their Judgments and pay an entire and absolute obedience to Ecclesiastical Assemblies without leaving themselves at liberty to examine their determinations or judg whether they were agreeable to the Word of God or no and that upon refusal of this Obedience it was just to proceed to Excommunication That this was exactly what the Church of Rome would have and that she desired no more But that we nevertheless in our disputes with her advance a quite contrary Principle He therefore entreated from Mr. Claude a distinct answer to this Point and would quietly hear what he could say to it Adding moreover that Mr. Claude ought to be the more ready to reply upon this subject because no new thing was proposed to him the same Acts and the same consequences that he now deduced from them being to be found in his Exposition of the Catholick Doctrine Mr. Claude first of all replied That although his coming thither was not with intentions to hold a Conference strictly and by rule yet he was extreamly glad that he had now an opportunity given him of testifying to M. de Condom how much he esteemed his person and that having no particular worth of his own he thought it a great honour that a Prelate of M. de Condom's Character should single him out to engage in Controversy with him That he would endeavour to give him satisfaction in each of the points now propounded to him and that if in the following part of the Discourse any expression should escape from him which might be offensive to M. de Condom he protested before-hand that it should be much against his will and design To this M. de Condom replied in very civil and obliging terms and Mr. Claude then resuming the discourse told him That in general whatever he had alledged just before did by no means infer such a blind and entire submission to the determinations of Ecclesiastical Assemblies as the Church of Rome pretends to impose That we must distinguish between two sorts of Authorities the one supream and unlimited the other limited and depending to the former we owe a full and perfect obedience to the other a conditional one only The former M. de Condom was sensible is by the Protestants attributed to God alone speaking to us in the Holy Scriptures and that the second was it they allowed the Pastors of the Church considered either single and by themselves or met together in a Synod or Council That their Authority being only Ministerial is restrained two ways one is That they must frame their decisions not of their own heads nor after their own fancies but according to the Word of God the other That they must always allow the persons under their Jurisdiction the priviledg of examining those decisions that so they may know whether they be really agreeable to God's Word Whence it follows that the obedience due to them ever goes upon this condition that they have not swerved from the Word of God That the Authority of Pastors and Assemblies composed of such cannot extend further than that of our Parliaments in the State of France who are not empowered to alter old Laws and enact new ones and whom we are priviledged nay obliged to disobey so oft as their Injunctions are prejudicial to the King's Service and the Allegiance we owe him That the Authority of Church-Assembles can at most be but as that of Fathers over Children because both God and Nature have invested Fathers with it The Fathers have a right to Act in their Childrens names because they have a right of Educating and Commanding them and the Scripture frequently enjoyns to Children a readiness to learn and obedience to their Fathers yet does it not follow from hence that Children are not priviledged and obliged to examine their Fathers Instructions and Commands whether they be true or false just or unjust and what shall appear to be false and unjust that to reject That nevertheless the Authority of Pastors and their Assemblies is really very great as is likewise that of Parliaments and Fathers notwithstanding their Authorities are under some limitations That the Pastors are as publick Trustees for the keeping God's Word appointed to study and meditate upon it continually thence to deduce necessary truths for the peoples improvement and to save private men a labour which they cannot always attend to because diverted and perplexed by the business of the World That so long as the Pastors discharged this Duty well the people were obliged to obey and submit to their words but when they deviated from it they were to be looked upon as false and treacherous persons Afterwards he came particularly to those Acts M. de Condom had urged and told him That the Clause of Submission contain'd in the Letters Missive to National Synods must be understood according to this Principle and under these Limitations because grounded upon this Supposal That all things would be managed there according to God's Word For those expressions Being perswaded that God will preside among you and lead you into all Truth by his Holy Spirit and by the rule of his Word do imply a
evidently contradicts that Principle which denies there is an absolute submission due to the sentence of the Church Of this the Discipline it self was a confirmation in that it appointed no Excommunication for such as stood out against the determinations of a Consistory and Provincial Synod and yet did for such as refused to submit to the decrees of a National one The same proceeded he is plain from that Letter Missive to the National Synod For how can men promise and swear submission to whatever should be agreed upon and yet not suppose a full and perfect Submission owing to the Church To urge this Submission proceeds from a perswasion that God will preside in it by his Spirit and his Word and to swear upon this account is to urge that this perswasion is grounded upon God's express Promise to direct his Church in her last determination by his Holy Spirit and after an Infallible manner This very thing said he is plain from the National Synod of Charenton's Act against the Independents The Reason they make use of that suffering their Principle to take place might produce as many several Religions as Parishes concludes for an absolute Obedience to the decisions of Synods since allowing private persons to examine the last determinations there might spring not only as many several Religions as Parishes but as many as there are persons and consequently no means would be left for preserving the unity either of the Faith or of the Church For what relates to the Deputies nominated by the Synod of Saintefoy to go and confer with those of the Ausburg Confession he said he did sincerely acknowledg that the Synod tho it gave them never so large a commission did not however intend it should ever be in their power to subvert all and if I may so say to turn things topsy turvy That he believed the Synods meaning was really that whatever was done by the Deputies should be referred to them and that there is a necessity all things of this nature should be ratified But still it was very amazing and a thing which Mr. Claude had not answered to that they should proffer to insert their Deputies conclusions with the Lutherans in their publick Confessions of Faith For this argued them doubting as to their Confession of Faith which yet they tell us contains nothing but the pure Word of God and in that there can be nothing that requires a change c. Do you think Sir said he that the Articles of your Confession of Faith may be changed When M. de Condom had left off speaking Mr. Claude said he would answer to each particular of his discourse and intreated he would please to hear him quietly And first of all he said That M. de Condom put a wrong construction upon that Article of the Discipline which declares that if men do not acquiesce in the decisions of a Consistory nor those of a Provincial Synod Things shall continue in the same posture till a National one be convened in which a full and final resolution shall be given by the Word of God and they who refuse to acquiesce in This shall be cut off from the Church For the reason of This said he is not either that there ought not to be the same care taken that the Consistories or Provincial Synods determinations should be made by the word of God as well as those of the National nor that this Word hath not as much Authority at one time as another whether declared in a consistory or Provincial Synod or a National one nor that a full and perfect obedience is not due to this only precisely considered as such But this method of proceeding added he was constituted for two reasons very different from what you pretend First because it is highly probable that the search made into Gods Word concerning the matter in controversy may be less exact and sagacious in a Consistory than it would in a Synod composed of all the Ministers in a whole Province and so again by the same reason less exact and sagacious in a Provincial Synod than in a National which is usually made up of all the most ingenious and learned men in the Kingdom The other Reason is That men may possibly be prepossest against a Consistory so as not to hearken to it so readily and impartially as they should which is not so likely in respect of a Provincial Synod which will be thought less apt to be sway'd by interest passions or personal prejudices and consequently they will be more quietly heard Lastly these kind of passions and private Interests being still less likely to happen in a National Synod consisting of persons living remote from one another and coming from all quarters of the Kingdom 't is very probable men will not be prepossest against them and consequently that they will receive the Word of God at their mouths that they will be more ready to learn and better disposed to obey them He said therefore that this method was taken for the avoiding as much as was possible two inconveniences one was to prevent the last determinations being given lightly inconsiderately or with any mixture of humane passion and Interest The other that the parties concerned might not be hindred by any personal prejudices from hearing and receiving the Word of God with that obedience and faithful submission which is owing to it But it could by no means be infer'd from hence that according to the meaning and intention of the Discipline it was not always God's Word as such but the Authority of the Assembly to which that Obedience must be paid And moreover that the decision of a National Synod was for this reason called the last and final decision because according to humane methods and the present course of things there is nothing beyond it to which we can have recourse As for the Letter of Mission to the National Synods he replied that did not infer an absolute submission any more than the Act of their Discipline did because there was in it the express condition of Judging according to the Word of God in these words Being perswaded as we are that God will prâ—side over you by his Holy Spirit and his Word As to the Reason which the Synod of Charenton urged against the Independents this he said did not at all imply a blind and implicit obedience That the dependence which particular Churches have upon Colloquies and Synods was an external Order which tho it had not any sure and infallible means of preserving the Church in the unity of the Faith was however of mighty convenience and use towards the doing it And we ought always to take it for granted that God's Blessing will go along with it as being an order constituted by himself That the Independents by throwing off this Order do deprive themselves of these means and wilfully expose themselves to the great inconvenience of having as many several Religions as Parishes so that the Synod had good
Argument Mr. Claude returned that this ought not to be called a Jewish Argument because it concluded in favour of Christianity but the contrary principle rather deserved this name because it favoured the Cause and proceedings of the Jews Afterwards Mr. Claude said That if he would have recourse to History it will be no difficult matter to demonstrate that many Councils have fallen into Error and been mistaken in their Determinations Particularly among others the Council of Arimini which condemned the Consubstantiality of the Son that is his Eternal Divinity M. de Condom cried out Whether are you carrying us now Sir To the Council of Arimini When shall we have done if all those Histories must be discust Do not you know that the Council of Arimini was a forced packt Assembly You urge my very argument for me said Mr. Claude which is that a General Council may be packt Here is an instance of one consisting of four hundred Bâ—shops that was so M de Condom answered That those Bishops were compelled by the Emperors Authority who had sent Soldiers among them but afterwards when they were every one returned home they disclaimed what had been done and exprest their remorse for it Mr. Claude replied That many of them it was true did acknowledg they had done amiss but that very acknowledgment of and repentance for a Fault which M. de Condom affirms they shewed is a Confirmation of their committing it and 't is of no great moment to know upon what motives they committed it since it is plain that it was really committed And further every particular man's returning from his Error is a plain Indication that each of them thought himself under no Obligation of acquiescing in what had been determined when they were all met together in Council M. de Condom cried out That there was no necessity of medling with all these Historical Points and that it would divert them too much from the main business There is says he an easier way of deciding the matter The Subject of our Controversy is the first Principle of Faith in particular Persons This in your Opinion is the Holy Scripture in ours the Churches Authority Put the case in a young Child who hath been baptized but hath not yet read the Scripture I would know by what Principle this Child believes the Scripture to be Divine Particularly the Book of Canticles for instance which hath not a word of God in it Now this Child who is a Christian who hath received the Holy Ghost and Faith conveyed into him by Baptism and who is a member of the Church does either doubt of the Scriptures Divine Authority or he does not If he does not doubt then he believes it Divine upon the Churches Authority which is the first Authority he lives under If he does doubt then a man may be a Christian and yet doubt whether the Scripture be true Mr. Claude returned That he could say something to that supposal of M. de Condom That every baptized Child receives the Holy Ghost but was unwilling to stay upon a thing by the by or deviate from the main matter in dispute He would therefore satisfie himself with making a few Reflections upon what M. de Condom urged last The first said he is That the first knowledg of the Catholick Church given by the Holy Spirit to this Child is in all probability given by his Creed where he finds I believe the Holy Catholick Church And yet in the Creed that Article is placed after several other Articles of Doctrine For it begins with God the Father Almighty goes on with the Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost and after these comes in the Catholick Church Now this is a manifest proof that the belief of Doctrines is not wholly derived from the Churches Authority for else the Creed ought to be put together after another method and the first thing said should be I believe the Catholick Church and by the Catholick Church I believe in God the Father and so on My second Reflection said he is That you ought not to take it for granted as you do that the first Authority a Child begins to live under is that of the Catholick Church It being manifest That the first Authority a Child lives under is his Father or Mother or if you please his Nurses and that the Churches cannot take place till afterwards but does in some measure depend upon the other The Consequence whereof is That the first Authority which is the Paternal can as well lead the Child to Scripture as it can to the Church Then Thirdly said he It is the easiest thing in the World to retort your own Argument back upon your self thus The baptized Child either doubts of the Churches Authority or he does not if he does not then he believes it upon the Authority of Scripture for there is no other way for him to believe it with a Divine Faith And consequently it is not the Church that induces men to believe Scripture but Scripture that induces the belief of the Church which is the thing we contend for If he does doubt then there is a Christian that hath received the Holy Spirit and Faith conveyed to him by Baptism and is a Member of the Church and yet is in a state of doubt which is that first Authority whereupon all the rest of his Faith depends Now that the Child cannot with a Divine Faith believe the Churches Authority any other way but by the Authority of Scripture I prove thus If it be not by Scripture that he believes the Church and its Authority then 't is either by way of immediate Inspiration and Enthusiasm or by his Fathers or Mothers or Nurses Authority or by Argument taken from the very nature of the Church This could not be by Enthusiasm because the Holy Ghost does not proceed in such a method Nor by his Fathers or Mothers or Nurses Authority for you discern the inconveniences of advancing such kinds of Authority for the first Principle of Faith Nor can it be by proper Proofs and Arguments taken from the nature of the Church because as you in your Argument suppose the Child not yet to have read the Scripture so do I likewise in mine suppose him not to have considered the nature of the Catholick Church and to know no more of it than barely the Name It remains therefore that the Child either believes the Catholick Church by the Scripture which you will not grant or that he does not believe it at all but doubts of it and so you â—all into the same inconvenience as to the Church which you labour to reduce me to with relation to Scripture It may be said very truly That upon this Pinch a man might discern M. de Condom's Wit was not in the condition it used to be and that his natnral freedom of Argument and Repartee plainly slagg'd He put himself upon maintaining that the first Authority the Child lived under was that of the
Church and not his Fathers or Mothers Mr. Claude returned That this was a thing too evident to be denied that the Fathers and Mothers and those who take the first pains about educating the Child is the first Authority with respect to Religion and that he must at first of all learn from them that there is such a thing as a Catholick Church into which he must enter himself or such a thing as the Scripture which was from God and to which he must yield Obedience That being upon enquiry by what mean the Child can come to believe the Catholick Churches Authority there is a necessity for fixing either upon Inspiration or the Paternal Authority or the Scriptures which informed him concerning it M. de Condom answered That the Childs Faith in the Churches Authority was a Divine Faith because it was the Holy Ghost that wrought it in him Mr. Claude replied That the question was not concerning the efficient Cause which produced this Faith in the Child but concerning the Motive or Argument by which it was produced If M. de Condom's meaning were that the Holy Ghost wrought Faith in this Child without any Argument or Motive at all this were a sort of Enthusiasm and the Holy Ghost does not Influence People at that rate M. de Condom said there were indeed Motives of Credibility Mr. Claude returned hereupon That if he would allow the Child so much time as to examine those Motives of Credibility for the Authority of the Church and perceive their strength He himself would in like manner allow the same Child time to examine the Motives of Credibility for the Authority of Scripture and perceive the strength of them but in this case he must forego his Argument which proceeds upon a Supposition that the Child never yet read the Scripture But is not this true said M. de Condom That in these circumstances the Child either does or does not doubt of the Scriptures being Divine And is it not as true said Mr. Claude That in these Circumstances the Child either does or does not doubt of the Churches Authority For if you take the Child before he have read the Scripture I will look upon him too before he knows what Motives of Credebility there are for the Churches Authority It is your part to answer my Argument and the very same answer you give will serve me against yours But do you as you think fit I however will not scruple to give a direct answer to your way of reasoning The Child then may be lookt upon with Distinction as to three several times either before his Father have ever shewed him the Bible and informed him that this Book came from God or after his Father have told him thus much but before he himself have read it or lastly after that he hath read the Book himself As to the first of these times which is that your Argument looks upon him in it cannot well be said that then he either does or does not doubt for neither the one nor the other is strictly true according to your meaning Not to doubt of any thing signifies to be well assured of it Now before a man can be said to doubt or to be well assured that any thing is so or so he must first have some knowledge of the thing it self I can neither doubt nor be assured that such a Person is King of Spain unless I first have some knowledg of the Person So that your reasoning is by no means good that a Child either does or does not doubt of the Scripture's being Divine For there is a medium between these two to wit such as consists in a state called An Ignorance of pure negation He knows not as yet what the Scripture is nor hath ever heard talk of it To doubt or not doubt whether Scripture be Divine a Man must have some knowledg and form some Idea of the thing But the Child can never form any Idea of a Book he never heard once mentioned At the second point of time when his Father hath showed him the Bible and told him that Book is the Word of God but the Child hath not yet read it himself he believes it to be the Word of God but this he does not by a Divine but humane Faith because his Father hath told him so And this is the case of a Catechumen At the third point of time when he is supposed to have read the Book himself and felt the virtue and efficacy of it he believes it to be God's World but this he does not now by a humane Faith because his Father told him so but by a Divine Faith because he hath found the Divinity and Efficacy of it upon himself and this is the condition of a Believer M. de Condom laid hold of the word Catechumen and said that this was a Christian one already Baptized and actually admitted into Covenant with God Mr. Claude answered that by the word Catechumen he meant nothing else but a Child after Baptism at the time of his being instructed in the first Rudiments of Religion M. de Condom beat again upon almost the same things that had been said before constantly affirming it to be the Churches Authority that the Child received the Scriptures as Divine and that having received them as such from the Church he did afterwards receive the meaning and interpretation of them from thence also Pray Sir tell me said Mr. Claude then when a Child learns at first of all that there is a Catholick Church Is it barely a general Idea which consists in knowing only that there is such a thing as a Catholick Church without knowing where or which it is or does it determine him to that Church whose publick Assemblies he sees For if it be the former of these this as you would make it is a mighty wild and insignificant principle of Faith I know that there is a Catholick Church to whose Authority it is my duty to submit but I cannot tell where that Church is nor which is she this would be but an odd principle of Faith The Child said M. de Condom does certainly determine this Idea to the particular Church whose Assemblies he sees and in which he himself bears a part and does believe that to be the Catholick Church and not barely that there is such a Church Let us imagine then said Mr. Claude a Child born within a Church that is Heretical or Schismatical the Aethiopian Church suppose the first principle of Faith in this Child will be from the Aethiopian Church looking upon that as the Catholick From this Church then and from her Authority according to your Tenet he will receive the Scripture as Divine from her likewise he will receive the meaning and interpretation of Scripture and he must never afterwards believe himself priviledged to examine the determinations of his Aethiopick Church for fear of falling into the inconvenience and absurdity of fancying it impossible for him a private single
Tom. 10. Edit Antverp †Baronius ad Ann. 540. Se à Pontificatu abdicâsse Vigilium ex spatio vacationis sedis Silverii dicendum omnino est nam quomodo potuit secundum Anastasium sedes vacâsse sex dies si Vigilius ipso vivente Silverio intrusus semel sedere post ejus obitum perseverà sset Annal. Tom. 7. Pag. 301. Edit Antverp a Baronius ad Ann. 1076. Privilegia Apostolicae sedis Romani Pontificis Quòd Papae â—â—eat Imperatores deponere Quòd sententia illius à nullo debeat retractari ipse omnium solus retractare possit Quòd à fidelitate iniquorum Subjectos potest absolvere Annal. Tom. 11. Pag. 485. Edit Romae 1605. b Relaxatos autem se noverint à debito fidelitatis hominii ac totius obsequii dum in tantâ iniquitate permanserint quicunque illis aliquo peccato pacto tenentur annexi Conc. Lateran 3. Cap. 27. Anno 1179. Collect. Labbe Lut. Paris 1671. Tom. 10. Pag. 1523. c Si vero Dominus temporalis requisitus monitus Ecclesiâ terram suam purgare neglexerit ab haereticâ foeditate per Metropolitanum caeteròs comprovinciales Episcopos Excommunicationis vinculo innodetur Et si satisfacere contempserit infra annum significetur hoc summo Pontifici ut extunc ipse Vassallos ab ejus fidelitate denunciet absolutos terram exponat Catholicis occupandam qui eam exterminatis haereticis sine ullâ contradictione possideant Conc. Lateran 4. Ann. 1215. Cap. 3. de Haereticis Collect. Labb Tom. 11. Part. 1. Pag. 148. d See Innocent the fourth's sentence against the Emperor Frederick past in the Council of Lyons It is at large in Labbe ' sCollection of Councils Tom. 11. part 1. Pag. 640. in the Close are these words Nos super praemissis memoratum Principem omni honore dignitate privatum à Domino ostendimus denunciamus nihilo minus sententiando privamus Omnes qui ei Juramento fidelitatis tenentur adstricti a Juramento hujusmodi perpetuo absolventes autoritate Apostolicâ â—irmiter inhibendo ne quisquam de caetero sibi tanquam Imperatori vel Regi pareat vel intendat Et decernendo quoslibet qui deinceps ei velut Imperatori aut Regi consilium vel auxilium praestiterint seu favorem ipso facto excommunicationis vinculo subjacere e Universas potestates dominos temporales Judices antedictos exhortando requirimus mandamus eisdem ut pro defensione fidei inquisitoribus Haereticae pravitatis pareant intendant praebeantque auxilium favorem Labb Collect. Concil Constant Bulla Inter cunctas pastoralis Curae c. Tom. 12. Pag. 259. ‖ Cum solum Romanum Pontificem pro tempore existentem tanquam authoritatem super omnia concilia habentem tam Conciliorum indicendorum plenum jus potestatem nedum ex sacrae Scripturae testimonio dictis sanctorum Patrum habere manifestè constet Conc. Lateran 5. Sess 11. Bulla Pastor aeternus Labb Collect. Tom. 14. Pag. 309. * Puto tamen quod si Papa moveretur melioribus rationibus authoritatibus quam Concilium quod standum esset sententiae suae Nam Concilium potest errare sicut alias erravit super Matrimonium contrahendam inter raptorem raptam Dictum Hieronymi melius sentientis postea praelatum fuit statuto Concilii Nam in concernentibus fidem etiam dictum unius privati praeferendum esset dicto Papae si ille moveretur melioribus rationibus novi veteris Testamenti quam Papa Nec obstat si dicatur quod Concilium non potest errare quia Christus oravit pro Ecclesiâ suâ ut non deficeret quare dico quod â—icet Concilium generale repraesentet totam Ecclesiam Universalem tamen in veritate ibi non est verè Universalis Ecclesia sed repraesentativè quia Universalis Ecclesia constituitur ex collatione omnium fidelium unde omnes fideles orbis constituunt istam Ecclesiam Universalem cujus caput sponsus est ipse Christus Papa autem est Vicarius Christi non vere caput Ecclesiae Et ista est illa Ecclesia quae errare non potest Unde possibile est quod vera fides Christi remanserit in uno solo ita quod verum est dicere quod fides non deficit in Ecclesiâ sicut jus Universitatis potest residere in uno solo aliis peccantibus Panormitan super S. Decret Tit. de Election Can. Significâsti Fol. 86. †Occam Dialog Lib. 5. Quaeritur utrum Papa canonice electus haereticari possit cap. 1 2 3 4 5. Utrum Collegium Cardinalium possit haereticâ pravitate maculari Cap. 6. c. Utrum Papa cum Collegio Cardinalium simul possit hereticâ pravitate maculari Cap. 10. Utrum Ecclesia Romana seâ— sedes Apostolica valeat inâ—ici haereticâ pravitate Cap. 11. Utrum Concilium Generale Ecclesiae in haereticam pravitatem labi possit Cap. 25. Utrum tota multitudo fidelium haereticari possit Cap. 29. †Restiterunt alii affirmantes errare posse Concilia jam errâsse ut Ariminense illud tam celebriter damnatum Ephesinum quoque secundum item Constantinopolitanum de ponendis imaginibus sed Aquisgranense cujus sententiae de Matrimonio raptae Hieronymi determinatio praeponitur Propterea si haec aberraverunt alia quoque errare posse dicunt Quâ de re fatentur nonnulli Concilia ea sive Universales Synodos in quibus Authoritas Pontificis summi non praesidet errare posse non autem ea quibus intervenit Instant illi ex adverso Ephesinum secundum legitimè fuisse congregatum praesidentibus etiam Legatis Pontificis nihilominus in eversionâ—m fidei agitatum in ejus correctionem à Leone Pontifice Chalcedonensem Synodum institutam Rursus quia dari remedia videntur dum Concilia discrepant cui videlicet standum adhaerendumque magis innuitur aiunt apertè etiam significatur aberrare Universalia Concilia posse J. Fran. Picus Mirand de Fide Ord. Credendi Theorem 4. Tom. 2. Pag. 259. Edit Basil * He says Dialogue 2d pag. 20. That the Church of England in the 6th Article of their 39. says We have no other Rule of Faith but Scripture as each person of sound Judgment in the Church understands it and what is proved by it This he repeats Dialog 3. Pag. 30. and several times afterwards whereas the words of the Article are these Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation so that whatsoever is not read therein nor may be proved thereby * is not to be required of any man that it should be believed as an Article of Faith or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation Where you see the Star there was in the Form in Edward the 6th's Reign this Clause inserted although it be sometimes received of the Faithful as godly and profitable for an Order and Comliness But where are the expressions or indeed the sense