Selected quad for the lemma: faith_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
faith_n	church_n	true_a	visible_a	19,269	5	9.3685	5	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A30650	A vindicaton of churches, commonly called Independent, or, A briefe answer to two books the one, intituled, Twelve considerable serious questions, touching church-government, the other, Independency examined, unmasked, refuted, &c. : both lately published by William Prinne ... / Henry Burton ...	Burton, Henry, 1578-1648.	1644 (1644)	Wing B6176; ESTC R20892	61,118	78

is disaffected with your courses and orders of the family What cause then hath he to complain if upon knowledge thereof you refuse to entertain him If therefore every family should be carefull to provide for its own peace by having all in it of like affection and judgement if possible why not Christs owne house and family And brother the truth is for we love no disguising as to need any unmasking wee love not in a time of reformation after a generall tincture of superstition and will-worship blindly to goe to work to admit of all commers and to cast Christs Pearles and holy things to such as we know not Or if we b● perswaded they be truly godly and yet they are not perswaded of the warrantablenesse of this way how can they with a good conscience desire communion with us And if not how can the Church receive them Nor indeed doe any such offer themselves nor doth the Church impose any such conditions as a godly Christian hath cause not to accept We desire to doe those things that please God namely such as he commends and commands Rev. 2. 2. Christ commends the Angell of the Church of Ephesus for not hearing with those that are wicked and for trying those that sayd they were Apostles and were not but were found ly●rs So some may come that professe themselves to be Christians that is to be godly to be beleevers but we dare not receive them without triall if they refuse to be tried we may the more suspect them And what interest hath any to Church Communion that is not a member or to the seal that is not in Covenant And we love not to do that for which to repent afterwards We desire all our members may be such as they may peaceably and sweetly continue with us We are loath to have the world offended by the unworthy walking of any one member And we desire by our best providence to prevent that none once admitted should ever be cast out again And brother all this we hold to be our duty for the preferring of the honour of Christ and of his Ordinances and of his Churches in the beauties of holinesse Others may take a broader way if they please wee dare not The Church and body of Christ is not of so slight account with us as that we should carelesly and promiscuously admit of every one that offer themselves without some triall of them both for the Churches satisfaction and for the account shee must make to Jesus Christ How strict the Jews were Airsworth in Gen. 12. v. 17. relates out of the R●●bines And even Bellarmine himselfe had such a cleare apprehension of the generall nature of Christs Church though himselfe did not experimentally and particularly know it that hee useth th●se words Ecclesia precip●è c. The Church especially and intention●lly gathereth onely beleevers such as have true faith in their heart And when any hypocrites are mingled among such as truly beleeve not i● falleth out besides the intention of the Church For if it could know them it would never admit them or being casually admitted it would so thwith exclude them Thus Bell●rmi e which he sets down as a most true speculative Prinple though but ill applied and worse practised by him and his and such like which yet all true Churches should be carefull to observe and pot in practice And truly brother we desire to do this that if it be possible no misbeleever no prophane liver no hypocrite be admitted a member of Christs body though an hypocrite having his viz rd on may sometimes * creep in unawares into the Church And therefore diligent circumspection is used for prevention And ●urpius ejicitur quam non admittitur h●s●es A guest is in refairly kept out then cast out This brother is our course that we hold in admitting of members we think we cannot be too wary though too strict we are not We suspect the gold that will not abide the touch A Christian name may silver over the copper such as the Scripture calls reprobate silver Ierem. 6. 30 Though we know each currant coin hath its allowance of allay and each beleeving Saint so many grains allowance but all sincere no thing counterfeit And as for Church covenant we have sufficiently spoken before The last charge you lay upon Independencie is uncharitablenesse carelesnesse and neglect of one another welfare and the like Brother for uncharitablenesse let our practises the best proofes of true charity plead for us We ●●ve manifested our love and loyalty to the State whereof we are natural and politicall members For the safety thereof we have powred out our estates to the very bottome We dare herein compare with all others of our rank and meanes My selfe a poore man am out for the State between foure and five hundred pounds and I blesse God I have done it with a cheerfull heart nor for squint respects to lay out so much at once to receive of the State so much annuity Yet I speak it not to glory but you have compelled me And besides their means none have more prodigally adventured and spent their lives for the State then your Independents have and for none hath the God of Battels appeared more And but for stirring up envie which needs not I should put you in mind of Marston-moore In a word brother we dare challenge all the world in point of fidelity to the State and our native countrey Where be they that more love honour our Senat Synod Syn●drion Who pray more frequently more fervently for them So that herein you cannot say we are Independents as for want of true love and that of the best kind to the publick Cause and State from which our Independencie is so farre from separating our hearts and affections with all our abilities to serve it as that it hath cleared it self to be as fast firmly united unto it as any other whatsoever And for true charitablenes brother where is it to be found if not in those Churches you call Independent But you will say this love is among our selves And God grant it may ever be so Yet it ends not here but extends to all And brother for a close I challange you to shew me any one parochiall Congregation in England where in there is or can be the like love one to another the like care one for another the like spirituall watchfulnesse one over another the like union and communion of members in one mysticall body in a sympathy of affections in such a fraternitie as is described Psal. 133. a lively type of a true Church of Christ Till you shew us the like in any of your Parochiall Assemblies consisting of your mixed multitude good brother restrain your spirit so mightily imbittered against us lest in charging us with uncharitablenesse your self alone be found to be uncharitable And so I have done with your first twelve Questions A VINDICATION OF CHURCHES COMMONLY CALLED INDEPENDENT OR AN

Even the Imperiall heathen Roman Lawes gave way to the preaching of Christs kingdome and gathering of Churches within their Territories Provinces Cities 3. For Church-government Covenant wee have said enough before 4. Concerning a Nationall Church also we have spoke already in the former Answer And I desire brevitie and not to answer all your repetitions and aggravations lest I may nauseam movere 5. It is one thing for a State to set up a new forme of Ecclesiasticall Government and another to pull downe the old This they were bound unto by the Word of God but not so that unlesse it be the same Church-government which Christ sets downe in his Word besides which none other ought to be set up though never so much pretended and by men conceived to be according to Gods Word when made sutable to the Lawes Customes of every Nation and manners of the people as you affirme of which before Lastly This Church-government which we professe you shall never be able to prove ridiculous and absurd as you conclude your Interrogatory The seventh Interrogatory This Interrogatory is about the dismissing of members 1. to become members of Presbyteriall Churches 2. Or of other Independent Churches I answer If any will desert their Congregation who can let them Yet it is the Churches care and duty to preserve it selfe and all the members in unity of the body and also from whatsoever may be sinfull If any shall repent and fall back Churches are not more free then * Christ himselfe was If any for conveniency sake or necessary occasion desire to joyne with some other Church doe you think it unreasonable first to acquaint the Church with their desire And doe you not allow of Letters of recommendation when any is to passe to other Churches May not els jealousies and suspicions arise and heart-burnings between Churches Do you not remember what divisions and emulations the want hereof did cause among the Churches of old And brother we desire to doe all things in love And we desire that others should doe no otherwise unto us then we doe unto them as you object You twit us againe for respecting the rich more then the poore If it be true it is * our fault and ought not so to be if not true it is yours and that so often as as you doe you cast it in our dish The eight Interrogatory This Interrogatory is to charge us for not admitting to Baptisme any Infants of such Parents who are not members of our Churches And brother you make this a most hainous and intolerable thing Why you know if we would admit of all it would be no small benefit and advantage to us especially when we are to deale with rich mens children such as you say we have in such high estimation Therefore that we doe it not for rich men you may thinke there is something in it that covetousnesse is not so predominant in us as to corrupt our Conscience And therefore brother let some charitable thought take place in you that we doe it rather of Conscience then of Covetousnesse And what say you to this brother We preach Christ to the Parents We preach him no lesse a King then a Priest and Prophet We preach him the onely King of our Conscience and the onely Law-giver and Governour of his Churches We exhort them to set up this King in their hearts Wee exhort them to become and professe to be those Saints of whom he is King For he is * King of Saints But brother they will not beleeve us they will not depend upon Christ as the onely Lawgiver and King over their consciences Now what would you have us to doe in this case Baptize the Infants of such Parents as will not in this respect professe nor confesse Christ to be their King Why doe you not know that no Infants have any title to Baptisme that are not within the Covenant visibly And how are they within the Covenant visibly but by vertue of their Parents faith outwardly professed And what outward profession of faith in the Parents that refuse Christ for their onely King that are ashamed or afraid to professe to be in covenant with Christ as their King If therefore the Parents professe not yea refuse thus to be in visible Covenant can the children be said to be in visible Covenant and so to have a right to Baptisme the externall seale of the Covenant Brother here is obex a barre put If you say The child shall not beare the iniquitie of the father True but the Parents keep themselves off from the covenant by refusing Christ in whom alone the beleever hath right to the Covenant and so the child is withall kept off For it is not now under the Gospel as it was from Abraham to Christ The covenant was made with Abraham and his seed so as by vertue hereof all the male Infants of beleeving Abraham were and ought to be circumcised But now under the Gospel those onely are accounted Abrahams seed who professe the faith of Abraham which faith looked upon Christ and embraceth whole Christ in all his offices and professe the same outwardly Rom. 10. 9 10. So as the Covenant is entayled onely to beleevers now and so to their children as Act. 2. 39. If then the Parents by refusing Christ as their King as the Jewes did Luk 19. 14. doe hereby out themselves off from the Covenant they do therewith cut off their children too and this not to be recovered in the child untill either the Parent be restored or the child coming in time to beleeve and to professe the faith of Christ doe hereby claime his right to the Covenant and so to Baptisme as being a * childe of Abraham Let this suffice for the present why we dare not baptize the children of those Parents that refuse to professe the faith of Christ as their onely King as well as their onely Priest and Prophet For Christ divided becomes no Christ to the divider This is according to the vulgar Latin translation 1 Joh. 4. 3. solvere Iesum to dissolve Jesus that is to receive him only in part and not in whole Which is the spirit of Antichrist Besides willing disobedience to any good order in a Church deprives a man of the liberties of the Church for so he may not eat of the provender that will not undergoe the yoake Now this of a voluntary profession to walk with the Saints of such a place according to Christ is a thing so just as following the example of the old Church who were in particular Covenant with God 2. In the New they professed their giving themselves to God 2 Cor. 8. 5. 3. All societies require some promise of their members If it be said we are members of the universall Church by faith and repentance we reply 1. this faith must be shewen by a voluntary giving our selves to Christ visibly and then to some Church of his if opportunitie

it selfe To be plaine therefore though I know you to be a very Heluo librorum of vast indefatigable reading and to have a stomack proportionable of a strong digestion yet give me leave to tell you as my loving and beloved friend and brother that the subject you here deale with is not of so easie a digestion as that subitane or sudden apprehensions thereof may be w●ll said to be digested Strong meats you know taken downe liberally into the stomack doe require the longer time for a kindly digestion And a sudden digestion is apt to leave many indigested crud●●ies ingendring malignant humours in the body You digest your apprehensions into considerable Questions as you call them to be solemnly debated by sober minds but passing along brother I find your Questions turned into your owne resolutions so as in stead of debating them by sober minded men you forestall them and tell us that these Independents as you style them are guilty of Arrogancy Schisme Contumacy and liable to such penalties as are due to these offences in case they shall not submit to such a publick Church-Government Rites Discipline as a Synod and Parliament shall conceive most consonant to Gods Word c. And all along your Queries are so digested by you as that they cast up a very ill sent if not rather a judiciall sentence against those Churches which not honoris causa you name Independents But we shall answer to the particulars as they come in order Thus much of your Proeme or Preface To your first Question Before I punctually answer this and so the rest of your Questions let me premise this as an {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} which I must demand of you a due to my Profession that forasmuch as you are a learned Lawyer and able to speake much of Lawes and Customes of Nations and Churches and my selfe am a professor of Divinitie the Rules and Principles whereof are all of them laid downe in the Scripture unto which alone all Questions about Faith and Religion are so reducible and finally determinable as who so denieth this denieth the faith and is not to be disputed with as a denier of Principles therefore I require of you as a Christian brother to joyne issue with me in this point that all your Questions may be resolved by cleare Scriptures and reason evidently deduced from them and this with all brevitie and perspicuitie Now to your first question the summe whereof is Whether every severall Nation Republick and Nationall Church hath not under the Gospell a * liberty and latitude left them to chuse and settle such an orderly forme of Church-government Discipline and Ecclesiasticall Rites as is most suteable to their particular Civill government lawes manners customes being not repugnant to the word of God This being as I conceive a generally received truth among all Protestant Churches And whether some things in all Church-governments Discipline Ceremonies whatsoever are not and must not be left to humane prudence for which there is no direct precept nor pattern in sacred writ Which truth is assented to by all parties Churches whatsoever in theory or practice This is the substance of your first Question To which I answer And first to your quotation of the Harmony I will answer one for all Sect. 16. August Confessio 4. Traditiones de ●●riis c. We condemne not Traditions of Holy-dayes of the Lords day of the Nativity of Easter and the rest for a politick end Here you see they put the observation of the Lords day among humane Traditions which I suppose you doe not approve Again they allow onely such observations as God by the Morall Law and the voyce of Nature it selfe commandeth And thirdly That humane rites be not imposed Ne conscientiae onerentur That mens consciences bee not burthened And in a word To shape Religion in point of Church-government Discipline Ceremonies to every Nation Republick Nationall Church and to Civill Government Lawes Manners Customes and so to humane Prudence as you say what is it but to shape a coat for the Moone Whereas the Scripture holds forth unto us but onely one forme of Church-government and Discipline which ought not to be altered according to the diversitie of humane Lawes and Customes in all Kingdomes and Common-weales as you affirme And whereas you make a proviso Alwayes provided every thing bee consonant and no way repugnant to the word of God To what purpose is this when the very liberty you give of altering Church-government and Discipline as may be sutable to humane Laws and Customes is it self repugnant and no way consonant to the word of God as we shall shew by and by This is transformare Ecclesiam in humanam politiam to transforme the Church into a humane Politie * Hae imaginationes omnibus aetatibus inde usque ab initio mundi nocuerunt Ecclesiae semper nocebunt These imaginations or fancies have in all ages from the beginning of the world hurt the Church and will alwayes hu●t Thus the Harmony * Now brother whereas you seem to challenge us infallibly to evidence by any Gospel Text that Christ hath peremptorily prescribed one and the self-same form of Ecclesiasticall government Discipline Rites to all Nations Churches in all particulars from which they may in no case vary under pain of mortall sin schisme or being no true Churches of Christ with whom good Christians may not safely communicate First what evidence from Scripture can you bring why it should not necessarily be so You would seeme to make this a ground why Church-government Discipline Rites should be alterable according to the severall laws and customes of severall Nations Because say you Christ enjoyned the preaching of the Gospel to all Nations and People whatsoever who have their severall established defferent formes of Civill government Laws Manners Rules and Customes sutable to their respective dispositions Climes Republicks By this reason you might argue that therefore the Gospel it self may be preached variously according to the variation of the climate and if not so then say I neither is the Church-government and Discipline to be varied according to the diversity of Nations Laws Customes Climates For brother the Church-government and Discipline now in the time of the Gospel is a part of the Gospel as being the Gospel-government and Discipline of the Evan 〈…〉 l Churches And brother why should you think that Christ now under the Gospel or New Testament hath ●e●t a greater liberty to men to alter that form of Church-government and Discipline which in the New Testament is laid down then he did in the Old Testament under the Leviticall Law What a strict charge did this Law-maker give to Moses See saith he that thou do all things according to the pattern shewed thee in the Mount He must not vary one pin * But some will say When the Tribes of Israel were reduced under a kingly

that even above the Apostle John himselfe with other like sutable practises This Mistery growing up and spreading mightily by degrees after the Apostles were dead and so prevailing as a generall deluge over the face of the earth as nothing could bee seene but Diocesan Bishops seas overflowing every where Therefore were there never such Churches extant But suppose there were no examples to be found of it in Church Story which yet we have proved the contrary neverthelesse you know brother when a mans evidences of lands are lost there be publicke Records as the Rowles of Chancerie where they may be found againe And if there they be found will you not allow them because the man cannot otherwise shew them Now we have the sacred Scripture where our Evidences are safely recorded Suffice it then that there we shew them The contrary opinion doth manifestly establish Traditions unwritten as the Papists doe And to give the Reader some intimation how the Churches of Christ came in time and that in short time after the Apostles to lose their liberties I crave leave of you to note that passage in Ambrose who lived within the fourth Century upon 1 Tim. 5. Synagoga postea Ecclesia c. The Iewes Synagogue and afterwards the Christian Church had Elders without whose counsell nothing was done in the Church Which by what neglect it grew out of use I know not unlesse is were perhaps the sl●ath or rather pride of the Teachers whilst alone they would seeem to be some body So Ambrose the Bishop of Millan confessed I confesse I cannot shew many such instances or records as perhaps your selfe in your multifarious reading may observe But this one from such a reverend and ancient author too of pious memory may serve instead of many considering also that this is the greater rarity and antiquity and much to be wondred at how it escaped the expurgatorie Index by those that were the first fathers of the Mystery of Iniquity that they did not quite expunge this record also that not a pin of the old patterne should remaine Now that the Church this Ancient there speaketh of was particular Congregation answerable to the Synagogue governed by the Counsell of its own Elders cannot be denyed Whereby all men may cleerly see in how short a time the Governement of Churches instituted by Christ and his Apostles came to bee changed from being free Churches to become servile and subject to the usurpation of the greater the Prelates and their clergie now making up the Church as if the congregations themselves were no Churchs as being stripped of all their Rights and Priviledges yea and of Crist their King his Kingdome now being turned into an Oligarcy or Oligarchill Tyranny mixed of two of the worst forms of Government though you seem to put Oligarchy in the ranke of the the best but I suppose you would have said instead of Oligarchy having named Monarchicall and Aristocraticall Democratie Oligarchy being Heterogeneall to the other two But enough of this The seventh Question Thus reduced Those Churches which do not conforme their Church-government to some one or other publike forme of Civill Government dividing themselves into many Parochiall Churches Dioceses Provinces but doe gather Churches not out of Infidels but of men already converted to and setled in the Chiristian faith and do admit them into the Church by way of Covenant no one example or direct Scripture Reason or Authority can be produced to satisfie conscience of the lawfulnesse of them But such are the Independent Churches they do not conforme as afore Therefore conscience cannot be satisfied of the lawfulnesse of them The Argument or Question containes many branches scarce reducible to one head but I have bundled them in one coard as well as I could. And for answer first this Question is coincident with all that went before and so is already in that respect answered Secondly Your parallell betwixt the civill association and Ecclesiastick is not grounded on Scripture for neither God taught neither the Churches practised any such necessarie union and dependance of one Church on another though they might have done it and had need of it as being in times of persecution which hindered it not no more then it doth in France now 2. You confidently affirm that all Ecclesiasticall Histories testifie so much which is manifestly untrue as hath been shewed before 3. Though churches springing out of other churches had dependence on them what is this to churches that are far distant one from another and never had such a ground of relation one to another Besides the Harmonie of confessions which you quote for you though I finde not that in those places they say any thing to the point yet Sect. 11. cap. of the Keyes that the Keyes are committed to each particular even the least Ecclesiasticall Society Thirdy Christs true churches here on earth are not to be * limited to this or that place as because there are so many Parishes Dioceses Provinces in a civill State therfore those must be so many fixed Parocihall Diocesan Provinciall churches And here Brother Prynne would reduce tanquam ex postliminio the Provinciall Diocesan Parochiall church Government to the same forme it had before Would you have the Provinciall Arichbishops with their Diocesan Bishops and Parochiall clergie or Priests set up again For a Prouince hath relation to its Provinciall and a Diocese to its Diocesan and a Parish to speak in the old Dialect to its Parish-Priest Da veniam verbo And as for division of Provinces Dioceses and Parishes into so many churches you know where and when it began For in the yeer 267. Dyonisius Bishop of Rome made this division which division turned the churches into a Babylonish confusion when now all that dwelt together in every Parish and so in every Diocese who ever they were Tag and Rag must make up a church as so many members do one body whereas the churches planted by the Apostles were called and gathered out of the wide world where the Word of God came and took place So as not every citie became a church but so many as were called in every citie Paul writes not to all in Corinth but to the church there consisting of the Saints only But you object the gathering of churches not of Infidels but of men already converted to and setled in the christian faith of which forme of congregating churches you say you could never discern example or any direct Scripture to satisfie conscinces We would gladly say Amen to that assertion that the whole Nation is christian established in the faith but if not you dispute ex falso supposito May it please you then brother to take notice of the example both of John Baptist and of Christ himself and of the Apostles who * all of them did call and gather christian churches out of the Jewes church which might suffice to satisfie any mans conscience in this point and so

Church-government we doe as much in effect as argue Every man in his Infancy is borne destitute of Religion c. Ergo he ought to continue so when he is growne a man We dare goe no further then the Scripture leads us therefore we are a company of Infants Good brother call in these extravagants 2. We say the Churches were as perfect then as ever since they had all Ordinances the most eminent Officers the most large gifts c. and as many in a place called to the Faith as can be shewen in any one place since to have come in voluntarily to the Gospell Act. 8. 10. 12. Chap. 21. 20. The tenth Question This Question is reduced thus Such as cannot produce any one solid reason why they ought not in point of conscience willingly submit to a Presbyteriall Government in case it shall be established among us by the generall consent of the Synod and Parliament as most consonant to Gods Word the Lawes Government of our Realme ought to be reputed to be in a high degree of Obstinacy Singularitie Arrogancy self-ends and peremptory Schisme But Independents cannot produce any one solid reason why they ought not so to doe as aforesaid Therefore Independents ought to be reputed to be in a high degree of Obstinacy Singularity Arrogancy self-ends and peremptory Schisme Now truly brother a heavie charge you lay upon those poore creatures you doe so becall Independents As 1. of Obstinacy If that be obstinacy against mens consciences not to yield blind obedience to mens commands in point of Religion 2. Of singularity If that be singularity for a few to enter in at the strait gate and to walk in at the narrow way If that be singularity to doe that which the multitude will not doe to ●o●ne under the government of Christs Kingdome in the Government of our consciences and of his Churches which is a Principle you your selfe in termes cannot dare not deny 3. Of Arrogancy If that be Arrogancy for one Church not to exalt it selfe over another or for Pastors not to Lord it over their flocks 4. Of selfe-ends If that be self seeking which if any other is a self-denying and a taking up of our crosse dayly as Malefactors ready to be crucified as without which resolution wee cannot follow Christ If that be selfe-seeking to strip our selves of the preferments and favours of the world to be exposed naked to the reproach of all to be accounted the out-casts of the world and the off-scouring of all things as at this day And lastly Of peremptory schisme If that be schisme whereby we ought to separate our selves from all doctrines contrary to what is delivered Rom. 16 17. and so farre as is possible from all the ●udiments of the world from the Ordinances of men which are not a●ter Christ that so wee might adhere to him and walke in him being taught by him as the t●●th is in Iesus But ●o● that these Independents should undergoe all these {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} hard speeckes and yet not to be able to shew one solid rason for it surely then a fools cap and a bell were fittest for them But I hope brother if you have but read hitherto and well weighed in a just ballance the many reasons we have already given you perhaps in some of them at least if not in all you will find something that may challenge the title of solid in your clearer and more solid judgment Now to your Argument First of all I might deny the necessity of the consequence of your Proposition For it is not necessary that every truth should cease to be truth because every one cannot shew a solid reason for it The fire hath an essentiall form and yet no man can find it ou● It burneth yet none can shew a solid reason why The Martyrs some of them professed they could not dispute for that truth they held but say they we can dye for it And what if that Church-government which your silly Independents hold be a truth and yet some of them not able to shew one solid reason for it Must it therefore not bee a truth As the Apostle saith What if some did not beleeve Shall their unbeleefe make the saith of God without effect But I flatly deny your Assumption and affirme that your Independents both have and doe and can produce many solid Reasons why they may not ought not in point of Conscience willingly submit to such a Presbiteriall Government as you prescribe because framed by the generall consent of a Synod and Parliament conc●●ved by them as consonant to Gods Word the Lawes and Government of our Realme One Reason is Consonant to Gods Word and conforme to the Lawes of this or any other Realme cannot stand together as before is shewed And the reason hereof is because Christs Kingdome is so transcendent so absolute distinct Independent if you will as it is not obliged to conforme and stoop to humane lawes and peoples manners as you put a necessity upon it A second Reason because you require obedience to that which men shall conceive consonant to Gods VVord c. Touched also before and now againe to put you in mind And therefore upon this ground we ought not in point of conscience to subject and captivate our saith to mens opinions A third Reason why we may not doe it is because you require absolute obedience to the generall consent of Assembly and Parliament Now wee dare not pin our faith upon generalitie of mens opinions The generality of the votes of the Jewes State carried it away to crucifie their King If the whole world might vote this day the generality would be against Christ as hee is indeed the onely Anoyn●ed King Priest and Prophet What if the generality vote amisse while yet they may conceive all to bee right because consonant to what they most ●ffect No though orthodox and godly as was shewed before in the instance of Paphnutius in the Councell of Nice A fourth Reason Because we acknowledge Christ alone to be Lord of our Conscience and no power of men on earth herein to be joyned with him Harm. Confess sect. 11. The Magistrate rules the body not the minde And therefore we dare not subjucate our conscience to humane lawes customes and manners as to Gods Word with which you doe so equally yoake them So as wee answer you with the Apostles when all the syn●dri●n of the Iewish State with one generall voyce interd●cted them from preaching in Christs Name Whether it be equall in the sight of God to o●ey you rather then God judge ye A ●●●●● Reason Because the Holy Ghost by the Apostle expresly condemns all humane Ordinances in matters of faith and Religion whereof Church-government is a branch and a doct●inall part so as mans law therein may not bind the conscience As Col. 2. from verse 8. to the end of the Chapter A sixth

equity Now in your premises there is neither reason nor equity because no truth in them 2. Christ hath not delegated his Kingly office to any Princes Magistrates Parliaments to set up any form of worship or Church-government of their devising or conceiving no more then hee did to all or any of those you reckon up in the Old Testament I pray God give you a better understanding in this mystery of Christ and godly sorrow for these things Take then the counsell of this great King Bee wise therefore and understand and kisse this King this Sonne of God by obeying him in all that he saith as being not onely the onely King but the onely Prophet of his Church as before whom whoso heareth not IN ALL THINGS shall even be cut off from his people But how then doe you say This is a part of Christs Kingly office not Priestly or Propheticall to set up a government and hee hath not communicated those other offices to Princes and Parliaments Whereas Christ doth in all things regulate his Kingly office by his Prophetical office And again how say you Christ hath not given his Kingly office to Ministers but onely his Priestly and Propheticall and yet you make an Assembly of Ministers as Rector Chori to be the leaders and guides to a Form of Reformation and that necessarily And denying such to bee Kings or to have a Kingly office you exclude them out of the Albe of those faithfull ones whom Christ hath made a * Royall Priesthood even * Kings and Priests to God his Father But so much of this second Interrogatory The third Interrogatory Touching this 1. Wee assume not the power to gather Churches but being sent or called to preach the Word of the Kingdome thereby people thus called of God come to be gathered into Church-fellowship and so by consent doe chuse their Officers 2. Such as are thus called to acknowledge Christ their onely King were not begotten to this acknowledgment by such Ministers as you speak of who deny disclaime and preach against Christs Kingly government over mens consciences and Churches So as such a conversion as you speak of comes not home to whole Christ and such with their converters doe deny Christs Kingly government what kind of converts call you these Or at least and best they are converted but in part and that main thing wanting to wit Christs Kingly office they come up to by the preaching thereof 3. Such Ministers when they set up Christs government may being agreed upon by all sides have those Parishioners again that for want of it at the first went from them 4. Our solemne Vow and Covenant obligeth us not to any thing that is prejudiciall to the authority of Gods word and the libertie of a good conscience considering how Churches are gathered out of all the world not this place nor that not this house nor that but out of * every nation such as fear God and * out of every house the sons of peace out of * every Citie or Town all that receive the Gospel are called and gathered to Christ 5. Concerning Christian liberty in joyning to severall Churches as in the same house some to affect one some another you know what Christ saith Luke 12. 51 52 53. And it is God that perswadeth I●ph●t to dwell in the Tents of Shem. And brother all that noyse you make all along with extreame aggravations as Confusion Distraction implacable Contestations Schismes Tum●lts c. What are they but the very out-cries which the Prelats ever used for the crying and keeping up of their Hierarchy built upon the same sandy foundation This is well noted in the Harmony of Confessions Sect. 11. Confession of Ausburg These Senater-like Declamations though they be very plausible and incense the mindes of many against us yet they may be confuted by most true and substantiall arguments As All the Prophets and Apostles were true lovers of the peace and concord of Nations and people yet were they constrained by the commandement of God to warre against the Devils kingdome to preach heavenly doctrine to collect a Church unto God and the like And The true doctrine of God and his true worship must needs be embraced and received and all errors that tend to the dishonor of God must be abhorred and forsaken though all the world should break and fall down And much more there 6. Though we are fully perswaded by Gods Word and Spirit that this our way is Christs way yet wee neither doe nor dare judge others to be reprobates that walk not with us in it but we leave all judgement to God and heartily pray for them we our selves have been formerly ignorant of it therefore wee pitie others 7. Where you object that under pretence of Christian liberty whole Houses Parishes Counties may thus come to be divided into severall formes of Churches as some for the Presbyteriall some for the Hierarchicall and so cause Schismes and ruines or at least unavoidably subvert all ancient bounds of Parishes all setled maintenance for the Ministery by tythes c. Brother for Christian libertie who shall perswade the conscience or who hath power over it but he that made it even God the onely Judge thereof And for difference of mens judgements in points of Religion how can it be avoided And yet it followes not that upon such differences should come ruine to a State What serveth the Magistrate and the lawes of a civill State for but to keep the peace And as for Parishes will you allow no Churches but Parishes Or are Parishes originally any other but of humane politicke and civill constitution and for civill ends Or can you say that so many as inhabit in every Parish respectively shall bee a Church Should such Churches and Parishes then necessarily be Churches of Gods calling and gathering Are they not congregations of mans collection constitution and coaction meerly What Churches then And as for Tithes what Tithes I pray you had the Apostles Such as be faithfull and painfull Ministers of Christ he will certainly provide for them as when hee sent forth his Disciples without any purse or provision he asked them Lacked you any thing They said Nothing Surely the labourer is worthy of his hire And as for Ministers maintenance by Tithes I referre you to the judgment of your learned brother Mr. Selden And as for your Independent Ministers they plead no other maintenance then the New Testament holds forth yet not denying the Magistrate and State a power to appoint maintenance for the preaching of the word as is done in New England to those that are not members of Churches And where you charge them for having the faith of Christ in respect of persons as if they admitted the rich rather then the poore Brother I hope it is not so with others I am sure not so with me And lastly for your marginall young Interrogatories As 1. Of how many members