Selected quad for the lemma: faith_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
faith_n	church_n	true_a	visible_a	19,269	5	9.3685	5	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A20361	A true report of all the doynges at the assembly co[n]cernyng matters of religion, lately holden at Poyssy in Fraunce. Written in Latine by Mayster Nicholas Gallasius, minister of the Frenche Churche in London, and then present, [and] one of the disputers in the same, translated into English, by I. D.... Seen and allowed accordyng to the order appoynted by the Queenes Maiesties iniunctions; True report of all the doynges at the assembly concernyng matters of religion, lately holden at Poyssy in Fraunce.	Des Gallars, Nicolas, ca. 1520-ca. 1580.	1561 (1561)	STC 6776; ESTC S110901	50,348	138

a doubt but wil willingly submyt himself to her iudgemēt Nether doth it make agaīst vs that the church was afore the word For it is most certain that the word which afterwards was put in writing is much more auncient For by it was the church cōceued born bred But this saying of Austine is not to bee ob●…ected that he wuld not beleue the scripture vnlesse the autoritie of the scripture moued him therto But we must vnderstand y● in that place Austine spake of himself as of a Maniche w e whose erroure he was once seduced I pray you if ther rise ani doubt of the truth of any writing to whō go we to trie it but to y● cōmō notary to whose custody al writīgs monumēts are cōmitted Neyther therfore doth it folow that the autority of the writyng depēdeth on the witnes of the notarye For of it self it is true though no mortal mā beare witnesse hereof So truely must we answer thē which thynk y● the authoritie of the holy scripture dependeth vpō the cōstitutiōs decrees of the church The decrees of of that coūcels are manye tymes cōtrary in this question But all these things shal be more fullye opened in disputation conserēce I wil shewe only reason confirmed with the autority of certayn auncient allowed fathers Christ himself gaue so much authority to the doctrine of the prophets whom he had sent afore that by theyr witnesse he would confirme his doctrine Paul also suffred the Thessaloniās so to do willed thē to searche the scriptures to know whether he had taught thē truly Ac. xvii c. xi Peter allowed that selfesame reason ii Peter ii d. xix They therfore which boast thēselnes to be the vicars of Christ the successors of Peter Paule ought not to refuse yesame cōditiō Ca. ix li. ii Truely Ierome vpō Hieremy sayth that nether the error of the fathers nor of our auncesters by the authority of the Scriptures is to be folowed Chrisoftō vpon the .xxiiii. Chapter of Mathew the 49. Homelye erpounding thys place Those that be in Iury let them flye to the moūtaynes sayeth that is those that be Christians let thē flye to the Scriptures And again Wherefore doth he in this tyme wil al Christians to fly to the Scriptures Bicause in thys tyme since heresy inuaded the churche there can be no other proofe of true Christendome neither any other refuge for Christians minding to knowe the true fayth but the diuine Scriptures For afore it appeared by many signes which was the church of Christ and whiche it of the Gentiles But now whosoeuer wil seke it can by no other meanes discerne which is the true church of Christe but onely by the Scriptures Also he saieth further If a mā therfore be wylling to knowe the true church of Christ howe should he know it in so great cōfusyon but only by the Scriptures Yet further therfore the lord knowīg that ther shuld be so great cōfusiō in the latter dayes therfore doth Christ cōmaūd the those that be in christianitye such as be willing to strēgthē thēselues in 〈◊〉 faith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●…o other thing but the Scriptures Otherwise if they ●…p●…e any other changes they shal likely ●… 〈◊〉 ●…sh not vnderstāding which is the true ch●…rch and so shal they fa●… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of defolatiō which 〈◊〉 y● holy places of the churche 〈◊〉 in his moralls writeth thus If whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne as the Apostle ●…ayth and faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the worde of God whatsoeuer is besides Scripture inspired of God is ●…n Also in the Sermon of the confession of faith If God be faithful in al his words and hys commaundementes ●…me and stable for euer done in truth iustice to reiect any thing that is written or to bring in any thing not written is a sweruing from fayth manifest pride Thus much was spoken of the churche her signes authority and succession afore the Lordes and Bishops and diuerse other which heard thesame very attentiuely But bicause hys oration had bin already somewhat lōg it semed good then to entreate nothing of the supper Wherfore Beza medestly excusyng hymself declaryng also that we wer ready to shew a reason of that article and as much as lay in vs to satisfy thē if they would commaund vs forthwith to doe it When Beza had ended the Cardynal beckned to Spensa to speak and to answere our reasons He protestyng with many woordes that he had long wyshed for this cōference disputatiō that he neuer lyked alwaies contrary to those cruel punishmēts which had lōg tymes bene vsed toward them answered that those thinges were true which we had sayd of the churche her sygnes and succession If we had so taught and spoken at the first we should neuer haue neded to haue come to this controuersy But whereas we spake of the callyng into the churche he muche maruelled by whose authoritye or by what callyng we entred into the churche and toke vpon vs to teache Forasmuch as we wer not instituted by any ordinaryes neyther they at any tyme had layd theyr handes vpon vs. And hereof he gathered y● we wer no good pastors For by ordinary meanes quoth he you wer not called and muche lesse by extraordinary For extraordinarye vocation must bee proued eyther by miracles as the callyng of Moses was who was raysed vp of God to delyuer his people or els by the witnesse of the scripture as the callyng of Iohn whose vocation is plainlye proued by a terte of Malachye you want bothe Whereof it foloweth that youre ministerye is vnlawfull But as concernyng tradytions and the interpretyng of the scryptures yf there ryse any controuersye we ought to referre it quothe he to the ordinary successours as those to whō the holy ghost is promised and are appoynted of God for the same cause He brought foorth the exaumples of the olde Priestes and Leuites whiche in tymes paste in doubtful matters gaue the people coūcel to whose iudgemente the people were so bounde to stande that from theyr decree it was not lawfull for them to swarue neyther on the ryghte hande neyther yet on the left And that we had many thinges by tradition whiche no manne doubtes of no not we oure selues As y● the father is without beginnyng the son equall in substance to him also that yong children ought to be Baptised that Mary was a virgin after her deliuerance such lyke So he affirmed that those thinges which are descended vnto vs from the auncient fathers albeit they bee not written yet are certainelye to be beleued and no lesse to be allowed than if they were confirmed by the authority of the Scriptures That whatsoeuer is decreed by generall councels is certain and that they can not erre in doctrine But as to that which is cyted out of Austine that the first counsels ar amended by the later that he said neuer

all agreed it best to abstayne frō force But neuetthelesse they meant to prouyde that their feare patience should not encrease the furye and insolence of their foes First of al therfore wheras their number was so great that the cōgregation could not assemble wythin their priuate howsen they determined to come together openly and to haue their sermons and readinges in the open congregations Partly bicause necessitie enforced them therto and partly to cleare themselues of such slaunderous reports as already their impudēt aduersaries had raysed of them For it was openly bruted that most haynous and detestable crimes were committed in their assemblies Therefore they came into the yardes and open places some in their priuate howsen and some in the opē cities Few toke the churches For least any thing should be rashly or vnaduisedly done or leasr their aduersaryes myght haue any couloure to accuse them of rebellion the ministers pastours of euery Churche as much as they myght kept the multitude in awe and order yet neuerthelesse hereof rose sondry tumultes and facrions of their aduersaryes Which notwithstanding could not staye or hynder their open metinges Hereof rose sondry troubles and great suspition and feare of rebellion And thys caused at the last that by the commaundement of the kyng and hys councell it was openly proclaimed that none shuld iniury or molest other for any matter of religiō After thys also was published an other whereby as wel the Bishops as other nobles of the realme were commaunded to repayre to Poyssye to deliberate both for the leauyeng of a tribute to discharge the kynges dettes to foren Princes but chefely for the reforming of the estate of religion Therby also the kinges peace and safecondwite was graunted to all suche as woulde come thither freely to propose whatsoeuer perteined to true religion and the establishing of cōcord And it was commaunded vnder payne of death that no mā should trouble thē cōming together assembled or departing but that quietly and freely they myght mete together without trouble or veracion Shortly after by an Act of parliamēt in that which the Bishops and other nobles of the realme wer not only parties but rulers it was decreed vnder paine of death that hereafter none should make any assemblies eyther for preaching or for ministring of the Sacramentes or for mariage other where than in the Churches or after any other sorte than the olde and accustomed maner And furthermore that wythin a certayne space the mynisters that professed the Ghospell should departe the realme of Fraunce Hereof rose gret trouble Bicause now their liberty of comming together takē away it was likely to be greatly preiudicial to the tryall of the whole matter After thys the nobles met at Poyssye Shortly after the ministers of the Gospel came to the court to the king which then lay at Saynt Germans nye to Poyssye Thither somwhat afore were come certayne chosen men sent by the refourmed churches out of the .xii. prouinces to aduaunce religiō These deliberating with the others determined to offer vp to the king a boke in maner of a supplication wherby they woulde uponsome meanes to disputation and conference Therewithal also was geuen vp the cōfession of that faith which they professed thēselues ready to maintayne and defende Of that boke the thiefe poyntes were fowre First that no Bishops nor others of the ecclesiasticall orders should vsurpe the authoriti of Iudges ouer vs. Forasmuch as it behoueth rather that they themselues shoulde pleade their owne cause and stande in triall of reformation Secondly that the king Queene and nobilitie should rule the whole doinges leaste any trouble might arsie So that without contention and strif all matters myght be handeled and decreed Thirdly that al controuersies might be tryed by the worde of god whereupō onely all our fayth and religion ought to be grounded Fourthly that certayne notaryes and Scribes should be chosē of eyther part which might faithfully register whatsoeuer wer done or decreed Whose notes should be of no credite vnlesse they were allowed and confessed of either part These requestes no man misliked And the kyng answered that he would take thaduise of his councell and by his Chauncelour shortly make them an answere yet thesame was long deferred Bicause the matter was cōmunicated with the Bishops without whose councel or knowledge to do any thing it semed not mete For not only for thys matter of religion had the kyng assembled them but also for the leauyeng of mony to discharge hys dettes They waxing proude wyth thys confydence that the kyng semed to nede their aide assured themselues of the obtayning of any thyng agaynste vs nothyng doutyng the assured conquest of Ladye money Furthermore they tryfled and prolonged the tyme seeking al occasions to auoide our conference and disputation For they sayd we were already condemned and that they might not dispute with heretykes These and such other like their accustomed stayes they began to blase whiche neuerthelesse afterwardes they denied Boasting that they wer ready to he are vs. For they were ashamed openly to refuse our conference sith by their own consent we were sent for thither But they fully perswaded themselues that our courage or constancy would not be such as to hasard our lyues for that speach of our wordes Duryng this tyme oure nūber increased For out of euery prouince not in Fraunce onely but also from al the realmes adioyning as many as might without the hynderaunce of their churches drew thither Wherfore at the last we chose certayne to the nūber of .xii. whose names wer these Augustine Malorat Fraūces of Paulon Iohn Remonde Merlin Iohn Mallet Fraūces Morel Nicolas Tolye Theodore Beza Claudius Bessierus Iohn Bodwine Iohn Virell Iohn a Tures Nicolas Gallasius To these Iohn Soma adioyned himself which openly renounced papacy and subscribed to the doctrine Discipline of our Churches Afterwardes came also the reuerende father in God Peter Martir sent for from Tigur Whose comming was scarsely acceptable to our aduersaryes aswell for his singular learning as also for the maiesty and authority which both his Godlinesse and reuerende age haue gotten hym What in thys meane tyme was don of the Bishops whiche were assembled at Poyssye I thynke not good to ouerpasse For least any man should thynke they were ydle I wyl shew wyth what grauer matters they were letted so that they could not presētly heare vs. These questions they disputed amōges themselues What ought to be prescribed vnto Bishops Of the dignities of cathedral churches Of the Canonicalls their exemptions Of Curates their institutiō either by presentation or ordinary collatiē Of assigning them a Canonicall portion Of the lesser that is to wyt the ignoraunt chaplens and their vnreasonable number Of the reformation of monasteryes What should be done of cōmendes Of the number of benefices and their incompatibility What waye hereafter they myght prouide for churches and Monasteryes in time of vacation Whether there myght be any

remedy foūde for so great cōtronersies as dayly ryse of benefyces Of the excommunicatyō censure of the Churche and such lyke With the which hard weighty questions the Bishops occupyed had so litle leasure the they could scarse findeany tyme to employ in the hearyng of vs. What meanes they sought in the meane time to preiudice our matter it is not to the purpose here to tel I wil shew onely this one Which some thought in maner the prologe or preamble of the conference that should ensue that hereby mē may know what credite they ought to geue to such rumors as our aduersariesfalsely spred vpon vs. For immediatly vpon the departure of Theodore Beza a rumoure ranne that he being conuycted by the Cardinall of Lorayne was turned to the Catholikes as they cal themselues and agreed with them as coucerning the Sacrament as they terme it of the aulter Of thys tale what was the couloure and occasion I wyll shortly shew Whē Beza the day after hys comyng came to the Queenes presence in the palayce of the kyng of Nauarre by whom he was sent for there beeyng presēt the Prince of Conde the Cardinal of Borbon diuers other the Cardinall of Lorayne emonges others being there began to entreate and exhort him to encline to peace and concorde saying that as being absēt he had troubled the kyngdom so now being presēt he might wel appease it Hereto Beza first shewing what good wil he had alwayes borne to the kyng and hys natiue countrey aunswered that he was not of power to trouble so great a kingdome but muche lesse of purpose to do it whiche mighte well appeare by hys wrytinges hopyng also that they should perceyue greater proofe therof in hys talke Then the Queene demaunded of hys wrytynges Wheruppon the Cardenall takynge occasyon sayd that he hadde a booke publyshed in the name of Beza in the which he red one horrible incōuensēce Namely that Christ is now so to be lought in his Supper as afore he tooke vpon hym our flesh and was borne of the virgin I haue heard also quoth he that you wrote in a certaine booke that Christ is in such sort in his Supper as he is in a dunghil With these sayings al those that were present were greatly offended But Beza sayd As for the bokes if they were present I myght more certainly aunswere whether they were myne or no. But as to the first sentence it may wel seeme vnreasonable as it is rehearsed of my Lorde Cardinal But well vnderstode and those thinges considered which go afore it and folowe it we shal fynde it most true But the last is not onely shamefull but wycked also and blasphemous And I am well assured can neyther be founde in my wrytings nor any others of our part Ouer passing therfore this last in the which whosoeuer was the author of it he vttered to playne and manifest a lie the Cardinall returned to the first It were very hard quod he that we should haue no more than those olde fathers Furthermore how could Christes fleshe be geuē afore it was Then Beza asked of the Cardinall whether from the beginning of the world there had ben any Church he graunted Also was not the same Churche a Church by him which is the Mediatour betwixt God and mā There to he agreed also Is not Christ the true God and mā thesame Mediatour He confessed that also Then quod Beza the communicating of the faythful with Christ is not to be limited to y● tyme in the which in dede he ioined his diuinity to our nature For that which was not as yet by the course of nature was alwayes by power and effect present to the eyes of our fayth Is it not sayd that Abrahā saw the day of Christ and reioyced Also Paule sayeth that our fathers did eate the selfe same spiritual foode and dronke the selfe same spirituall drynke out of the spirituall rocke which folowed them which rocke was Christ Hereunto the Cardinall agreed also and adioyned here to that which is written in the Apocalips that the lamb was slayne from the beginning of the world Then Beza entreated somwhat of the difference of the olde and newe Testament From thys question as it haps many tymes they fel into the reasoning of the presence of the body of Christ in his supper We do not agree quoth the Cardinal in the exposition of these wordes of our Lord. This is my body I graunt quoth Beza and I am sory that we agree no better But I had rather plainly to graunt it than to dissemble it I quoth the Cardinall doe teache the children of my diocesse when they are asked what is the bread of the body of our Lord to answere that it is the body of Christ Do ye disalow that No quoth Beza For it is the sayinge of Christ But the question is after what sort the bread is called the body of Christ For of those thinges which are sayd to be all are not sayd to be after one selfe same sort And there with he touched somewhat of the Sacramental maners of speaking Wherin the Cardinal did not much repugne against the sayings of Beza onely against that place but the rocke is Christ whiche Beza cyted he set this The worde was made flesh But he was sone made to leaue that hold For y● which is spokē of a natural and essential cōmunion far differeth from the Sacramental speach At the laste this questiō quoth Beza cōsisteth in foure pointes The first is of the signes The other of the thing signifyed The third of y● cōioyning of the signes with the thing signified The fourth of the participation of the signes y● thinges signified by thē As to the first quoth he we do not agree that in the lords Supper you do appoint onely accidentes in stede of the signes Wheras we continue there the nature of bread wine as both the nature of Sacraments requires also the holy Scripture teacheth Here the Cardinal interrupting hym Truly quoth he I thinke my selfe able enough to defende transubstantiation But I thynk the deuines might well inough haue left out y● doctrine Neyther would I y● vpō that poynt should rest any diursiō of our churches As to the second poynt quoth Beza we do not only say y● the meryte of Christes death passion is signified vnto vs by the signes of bread and wyne But also the true body that was crucified for vs and the true bloud which was shed for vs and to be short that Christ himself true God and man is signified vnto vs by these visible signes that oure myndes and vnderstanding may by fayth spiritually beholde hym in heauen where he now ascēded resteth And so haue the fruition of all hys goods and giftes to lyfe euerlastyng And that assone and as surely as we see take eate drynke those corporall and visible signes The Cardinall agreed hereto signifying that he was glad to vnderstande it For that he had

neither if any manne should ryse from death would they beleue him Or howe did they which had the writings of the Apostles onely when neyther bookes nor commentaries were written of thesame But whereas my Lord Cardinall woulde haue that taken for an Apostolike tradition whiche hathe bene receiued of the church at al times in all places and of al men I see not howe these iii. pointes maie be proued For how great diuersitie shal we find in the bookes of auncient fathers yea and euen in the verye articles of oure faith If these wordes should be weyed at all tymes and of all men wher shall we beginn but at the Apostolike church Who shall be firste in order but onely the Apostles Whose liues and doings are partly faithfully written by Luke and partly gathered out of their owne writinges To be shorte we returne at the last to the first foundatiō of the scriptures sith all truthe came from god who cōmaunded the prophets and Apostles to bee interpreters messengers of oure saluation In the meane time we dooe not reiecte the councels of the fathers as farre as they be confirmed with the testimonies of the holye scripture For them as Austine sayeth the holy●… ghost hath so tempered that it which●… in some place is obscurely spoken in some other is expressed more plainlye and more at large And that rule chiefly amonges others he geueth whereb●… we may vnderstande the scriptures i●… that booke whiche he wrote of christia●… doctrine yet there remaineth som●… doubt in this question Some mē hau●… thought that the will of God in these thinges whiche pertaine to oure saluation is not fullye declared in those writinges whiche the Prophetes and Apostles haue lefte vnto vs. Whiche doubte if it should take any place what a gap wer ther opened to all mischefe And certes this was the breache by the which Sathan first pearced into the vine yard of the lord to destroy it God truely before the tune of Moyses with visiōs reuelatiōs directed his church in like maner yeapostles before thei put theyr doctrine in writīg taught yesame by worde of mouth But because the nūber of men encreasing their noughtynesse encreased also the lorde would y● this doctrine shoulde bee contayned in writinges and monumentes Whiche might be vnderstoode and perceiued of al men why so that he might confoūd the impudence and rashnesse of suche as wil set foorth cloke their dreames with the name of tradition reuelation and custome But if the doctrine of god be written onely in some part to what purpose is this remedy Truely it can not be so Iohn spake of the scriptures when he sayeth that those things which are written are written to that ende that we beleuing them may haue life euerlasting Iohn xx ●… ●…xi whiche he had falslye sayde yf thei themselues had concealed any doctrine necessary to life and saluation But Paule when he declareth the vse of scripture vnder the person of Tymothe teacheth all ministers yf anye thing should haue ben added to the scriptures wuld not haue affirmed that by them the man of god is made perfecte i. Timo. ii d. xvi Neither do we denye but y● at all times there haue ben somtraditions of the apostles which be not written But those were suche as pertained to the ciuil order of the churche But forasmuche as many men haue abused this name this great while I thinke good to shewe what traditions ought to bee counted Apostolike Whiche shall not be hard yf in iudgyng and discernyng them we vse the markes For fyrst we must consyder whether they doe agree with the doctryne of the woorde and then whether they bee apte and meete to edify●… For it is certayne that the Apostles dyd neuer institute any rites and ordinaunces whiche eyther directly or els in anye parte were contrarye to theyr owne doctryne or myghte withdrawe menne from spirituall worshippyng whereof theyr owne wrytynges beare sufficiente recorde If thys rule be obserued bothe doctrine shall easilye be discerned frō traditions also false traditions frō the true Neyther are you ignorant how foolishe Tertullian iudgeth their opinions which think that the apostles haue ouerpassed an●…thīg necessary to saluatiō which ether by word of mouth or writīgs thei haue not taught but we will adde more hereto Namely that those things which herein the Apostles decreed were not continuall Truelye their instytutions passe all exception yet neuerthelesse by the rule of charitye they yelded somewhat to the weaknes of men As when the eating of suffocatorū and bloud was forbid the Iewes Also those thynges which Paule himselfe taught and obserued in Timothe and his own persō Ac. 15. f. 25. Act. 16. a. ● i Co. 16. d. xxix i Co. 11. a 7 Which now truly shuld haue no place but by the generall rule of charitye whereby we are willed in things indifferēt to apply our selues to our neighbours Other such like may be gathered of their rytes as of kissing vncouering the head which was the signe of authority and other such lyke whiche at this daye are contrarye to y● customes of many nations amōg whō it would seme most folish the men should kisse the one the other to talke with the heade vncouered is commonly a signe of y● lowest state and condicion These thinges therefore ought to be considered before anye custome be thought Apostolyke Also no man must grounde vppon the authority of the Apostles to trouble the church As it hapned in the cōtrouersye of the daye in the which Easter should be kept whiche bred miserable deuision and euē in the Apostles tyme by those that did abuse the authoritie of the churche at Ierusalē to myngle Iewishnesse wyth Christian religion Of whom it is writen in the Actes of the Apostles where it was decreed by a councell that no man should lay that yoke on mennes cōsciēces Wherby it may easely be perceiued that the Apostles could not be the authoures of so many ceremonies to the which afterwardes Satisfaction merites and remission of sinnes wer attributed For they taught far otherwise And so much they dissented from makyng newe ceremonies that they gaue no place to those of Moses lawe of the whiche God was the author Of thys yoke of traditions obseruances Austine long since writing to Ianuarius much cōplained if he had liued in our tyme how would he haue lamented thē Wherfore to be shorte we desyre that the Scripture whiche herein is playne maye iudge good traditions frō euil holy from prophane profitable frō hurtful necessarye frō superfluous When of these articles we are once agreed this question shall easily be dissolued whether the authoritie of the church be greater thā of the woorde of god which certes is no lesse fonde than if a man should doubte whether the sōn ought to be aboue his father the wife aboue her husbande or man aboue god And sure neuer the true church or any godly mā woulde moue such