doe appeale to all here present whether this be not a meere wrangling shift to avoid disputation for the present And I doe here charge you if your owne conscience doth not inwardly tell you that either your Religion is so false that it cannot be defended or you your selfe so unlearned that you are unable to maintaine it that you doe without further delay agree to dispute with me vpon some maine points of controuersie betweene Protestants and Papists If you refuse I will tax you for a faint hearted coward and dastard and so esteeme you hereafter at all times Mr. Fisher. But if I yeeld to dispute with you who shall be Iudge betweene us Mr. Walker The chiefe judge of all shall be the word of God and these hearers shall judge of the forme and cariage of our disputation and to whom the victory doth belong Mr. Fisher. They know not the word of God neither can you your selfe certainly tell which is the true word of God M. Walker Yes I haue it here at hand to shew and taking out of his pocket Plantines Hebrew Bible in octauo without pricks bound with a Syriacke and Greeke Testament Loe saith he here is the true word of God even the whole Scriptures of the old and new Testament in the originall tongues wherein they were first spoken by the spirit of God and written by his penmen Mr. Fisher. How doe you know that this booke is the word of God and the originall Scriptures Mr. Walker I know that all not only Protestants but Papists acknowledge and confesse it so to be First Papists because Arias Montanus a great learned Doctor of the Church of Rome did set it forth and Plantine a Catholike Printer did print it and that at the charges of Philip the second your great Catholike King of Spaine so that you being a Romane Catholike cannot except you have cast off all shamefastnesse but acknowledge it for the word of God in the originall tongues Secondly we Protestants are so confident of the infallible truth of the word contained in this booke that we altogether build our faith and religion upon it Mr. Fisher. How doe you know that Plantine printed this booke Mr. Walker Loe here the title page where it is testified to be printed by him at Antwerp and the yeere of the world according to the lesse account of the Iewish Rabbins is here specified with these words he shewed the book and page to Fisher who discerning it to be printed in such a Character as he could not reade put it from him as if he had beene afraid to looke on it Whereupon Master Walker began to play upon him and taking advantage of his ignorance made the company some sport saying What Master Fisher are you a learned Iesuit and one of the Popes great champions and yet can you not reade this faire print I cry you mercy Graecum est non potest legi yea it is worse than so it is Hebrew printed in Hebrew words and letters which to the common sort of Popish Priests is more terrible and dreadfull than conjuring figures But in good sadnesse can you not reade it or doe you but dissemble Master Fisher I am afraid by your gestures that you are in earnest and your countenance doth make me so confident of your ignorance that I will adventure my booke upon it and though I will not otherwise take twenty shillings for it yet I here before all this company promise to give it you for your paines if you can but reade one sentence in it out of the originall text Which offer when Fisher refused some of the standers by laughed at him others wondred whether this were Fisher the Iesuit and made a question of it Master Burton who had promised silence observing the Iesuits folly by this behaviour and other idle speeches told him that he must give him leave to laugh and not be offended for he had by his promise at the beginning bound himselfe from speaking but not from laughing Mr. Fisher. The Iesuit plunged into this perplexitie thought it best to be gone and said that his businesse called him away he could stay no longer Mr. Walker Mr. Walker answered that this was an idle excuse For saith he you know Master Fisher that this day and houre was appointed by your selfe and set apart for disputation and though my businesse was great I was forced to lay all aside for this worke because no other day nor time would be accepted Therefore it is very unlikely that any businesse should now call you away or that you should appoint this time for any other imployment except you came either in hope to finde no adversarie which durst encounter you or with purpose if any appeared to shift off disputation by some such device By these and such speeches as also by the importunitie of the standers-by the Iesuit was detained and falling into the question about the infallible word of God after many speeches which passed to and fro about the originall Scriptures and the translations which was most authenticall and which translations the best and most uncorrupt and free from grosse errors Master Walker to cut off all needlesse discourse about such questions did very earnestly demand of the Iesuit whether he thought the vulgar Latine translation of the Bible to be the most pure uncorrupt and authenticall edition of the Scriptures and the true word of God according to the determination of the Councell of Trent Mr. Fisher. Fisher answered that he held it to be the uncorrupt word of God and the most authentike edition of the Scriptures Mr. Walker And though I doe much dissent from you in this opinion saith Master Walker and doe hold that of all translations which are of any esteeme among Christians there is none so full of errors and mistakings even in the judgement of S. Hierome himselfe upon whom the Papists falsly father it yet so far I doe approve of it that I doe not doubt but any learned Divine may easily gather teach and confirme out of it all doctrines which are necessarie to salvation For whatsoever necessarie truth is omitted in one place by mis-translatiō it is plainly expressed in some other places of the same which are truly and faithfully translated And here I doe make a faire offer and most equall motion to you before all here present viz. That I will undertake to make a plaine confession of the Protestants faith and of all the articles of religion which the Church of England holds necessarie to salvation in the very words and sentences of the vulgar Latine Bible without any materiall alteration at all upon condition that you when I have made good my word and promise will grant and acknowledge that the confession so made is a true confession of the true Christian faith and that all such articles are to be received and embraced for articles of the true religion Mr. Fisher. This offer when the Iesuit refused to accept he was much condemned
moode or figure It runnes word for word thus That Church which beginning with Christ and his Apostles hath visibly professed in all ages that faith which Christ and his Apostles taught without change in any point necessarie to salvation is that Church whose judgement is to bee followed and no private man must oppose his judgement against it There must bee one such Church in all ages But no such Protestants can be shewed This syllogisme no doubt will appeare as it is in forme very absurd to all the judicious who shall heare of it or reade it And yet the author thereof if we consider either the time when or the manner how he propounded it was therein farre more absurd and ridiculous For hee delivered it for an argument of such force and strength that it was not to be answered but at leasure and upon much studie and meditation Yea hee wrote it downe after that every point and tittle therein which requires any answer had beene by the present adversarie Master Walker there at that time abundantly answered to the full satisfaction of the hearers as they confessed For after Master Walker had fairely offered and earnestly urged that all controversies of religion which were betweene them might be tried first by the originall Scriptures secondly by the sincere writings of the ancient Fathers thirdly by disputation in strict syllogismes and all these were refused and rejected by the Iesuit as is before related They who were present wondering at him and some of them asking him whether he had any ground of his faith and religion besides his owne sense and will Mr. Fisher. He answered that he would bee judged by the Church For said hee when the Church hath judged no private man must oppose his judgement And this I made a Protestant Preacher confesse heretofore in a conference and that under his owne hand Mr. Walker Master Walker answered that the Church of God never judgeth as it is a true Church but by the Word of God in the holy Scriptures and as it is said of a just Iudge in a Common-wealth that hee is Lex loquens so it is said of every true and faithfull Church that it is Scriptura loquens The speaking Scripture Now against this judgement of the Church no private man must oppose his judgement that is his owne private opinion for all singular opinions of private men are vaine errors if they were true they could not bee singular seeing all truths necessarie to salvation taught in the Scriptures are common to all the faithfull Therefore the Protestant Preacher which you named did grant nothing but the truth from which you can picke no advantage to helpe you for you when you appeale to the judgement of the Church doe in many things differ from this truth First by the Church you understand no other Church but the Church of Rome that whore of Babylon your owne mother and your appealing to her to be the judge of your Religion is as if a Bastard should seeke to be judged by the whore his mother whether hee be lawfully begotten which he knowes shee will affirme and judge him to bee for her owne credit Secondly you rest on her judgement in the maine principles of Religion which are already most plainly and infallibly determined in the holy Scriptures and in which no Christian truly sanctified and regenerate being growne up to yeeres of discretion and well read in the Scriptures needeth the judgement of any other judge besides the Spirit of God enlightening his heart Thirdly when you speake of the judgement of the Church you understand such a judging power and authoritie as doth by determining points of faith and manners make them true and lawfull whereas the true Church of God hath no power to coine new Scriptures or to make articles of faith but onely the gift of revealing propounding and expounding of the word of God and the articles of Religion which Christ hath commended to the faithfull Fourthly you require in the true Church and attribute to your Church of Rome such properties as cannot bee found in any particular Church on earth viz. that it hath continued in the same place state and condition visibly and sensibly professing from the daies of Christ and his Apostles the same faith in all points necessarie to salvation whereas by consent of all stories and by manifest experience it is plaine that doctrines which by the Apostles were taught to the old Romane Christians as justification by faith without workes and by imputation of Christs righteousnesse Rom. 3. 4. 5. are now condemned by the present Romish Church And others which the Apostle did call Doctrines of Devils as forbidding to marrie and abstinence from meats c. 1 Tim. 4. 3. it urgeth as necessarie to bee beleeved and obeyed for salvation by some persons Mr. Fisher. I doe hold that the Church is the chiefe judge of all controversies in the matters of Religion and that all private persons must submit to it and not seeke to the Scriptures First because the Scriptures are translated out of the originall tongues before that private men can reade or understand them and the translations are not to be beleeved nor received but by the authoritie and approbation of the Church Secondly the Church gives such authoritie to the Scriptures that without it we are not bound to beleeve them nor receive them for Gods word according unto that excellent profession of Saint Augustine Non crederem Evangelio nisi me Ecclesiae moveret authoritas I would not beleeve the Gospell unlesse I were thereunto moved by the authoritie of the Church Mr. Walker And I answer that all this which you say makes no more for the Church of Rome than for any other particular Church for all other particular Churches have as much authoritie in this kinde yea more because shee is more impure and corrupt than any of them and hath least abilitie or sinceritie to judge of the truth And undoubtedly Saint Austen meant not the Church of Rome of which hee was no member but rather the Church of Millaine in which he was converted Secondly I say that Saint Austen in the place by you cited speakes by way of supposition and not by way of asseveration as the learned have well observed from the scope and circumstances of the place Thirdly it is true that over-weake Christians who are babes in Christ the Church in which they live and are baptized hath such authoritie as you speake of namely to translate the Scriptures and to commend them for the word of God and for truth and they are bound to give credit to it therein and not to oppose their owne fancies and conceits But when Christians are growne up in grace and knowledge and have felt by their owne experience the effects and worke of the Spirit in their soules wrought by reading and hearing of the holy Scriptures and when not onely by the inward testimonie of the Spirit testifying that they are the truth
but also by the inward heavenly comforts and spirituall strength which they thereby and from thence receive doe sensibly perceive that Gods hand is with them and he doth in them speake to their consciences then they need no more the judgement of the Church nor of any externall judge to assure them that the Scriptures are Gods true infallible word for though all professors in the world or an Angell from heaven should preach and affirme the contrarie they will not assent unto them but rather count them as Anathema and accursed as the Apostle commands Gal. 1. 8. Mr. Fisher. They who are true Catholikes and rest upon the judgement of the Church have as much assurance and certaintie of the truth of the Scriptures as is needfull from the testimonie of the Church for they build vpon the rocke against which the gates of hell cannot prevaile But you teach men to build their faith on their owne private spirit and you are lead every one of you by his owne conceit which is the cause of so many sects and schismes and severall opinions among you every one assuming to himselfe presumptuously such an infallibilitie of judgement in matters of faith as doth not belong to any private man neither can bee attained unto by the common and vulgar sort of Christians Mr. Walker You shew your selfe by this speech of yours to be not onely a meere carnall man such a one as hath never felt the lively worke of Gods spirit in his heart nor tasted of the heavenly gift but also a brutish man corrupting that reason and darkning that light which by nature is in you which I will evidently shew divers waies First you preferre the externall testimonie of the Church before the internal testimonie of Gods spirit and make it a more sure rocke to build on than the Holy Ghost who is the spirit of truth Secondly you seeme to exempt and exclude the common sort of Christians and all private men from the communion of the Holy Ghost and from that gift and grace and inward worke of the spirit by which they are illuminated to see and perswaded to beleeve the truth of Gods word every one particularly in his owne soule and with his owne heart contrary to the Scriptures which teach that the spirit of Jehovah resting first and originally on Christ the head Isa. 11. 2. is from him inspired and infused into all and every faithfull member of his body the Church Rom. 8. 9. in such sort that they are said by that one spirit to be baptized into one bodie whether they be Iewes or Gentiles 1 Cor. 12. 13. and their bodies are said to be temples of the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in them 1 Cor. 3. 16. and 6. 19. and by this spirit they are said to have the gift of knowledge and faith 1 Cor. 12. and to be led into all truth Ioh. 16. Thirdly you call the holy spirit of Christ which we challenge in Christ by a common right as common to all the elect and which doth worke the same faith and knowledge in every particular Christian by the name of a private spirit wherein you shew most palpable ignorance overspreading your carnall eyes and possessing your carnall heart For that spirit which flowes from that one common fountaine of all goodnesse even God the Father of all and is sent forth in and through the name of that one common Mediatour and Saviour of the world his Sonne Iesus Christ which is also the same in Christ the head and in the whole universall bodie of the elect and faithfull and doth worke in all and every one particularly the same common knowledge of the same truth and the same common faith in the same promised seed And all this by no private motions or inspirations separated from the word of God but onely by that common meanes even the word of Christ spoken by his mouth and written by his Prophets and Apostles in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament this spirit can in no case be called a private spirit For it is the propertie of the Holy Ghost the true Comforter to come from the Father in the Sonnes name and to teach the truth and worke faith by the common rule and meanes of the Scriptures and not to speake of himselfe new things which Christ had not spoken before but onely to speake what he hath heard and so to receive of Christs and to give to us and to lead us into all truth by calling to our mindes the word spoken by Christ and recorded in the Scriptures and by writing it in our hearts as our Saviour plainly testifieth Ioh. 16. 13 14. This spirit which is discerned by these properties we challenge to our selves by the common right of the elect in Christ and he it is who doth testifie to our spirits that the holy Scriptures are the true infallible word and doth transforme our soules into the obedience of them and doth worke in us that same faith by which all the Saints have beene justified and saved from the beginning of the world But now as I have shewed you which is the true spirit of God common to all the elect and faithfull and that by his properties observed from the words of Christ our Saviour and also that the spirit of Protestants is that spirit So I demand of you whether you Papists have any such spirit working in you that faith and knowledge of the Scriptures which you build on the testimonie and authoritie of the Church If you say that you have no such spirit but are led every one by his owne sense then are you carnall and sensuall men not spirituall by your owne confâ—ssion If you say that you have the spirit moving every one of you particularly to rest on the judgement of the Church of Rome and causing you to beleeve that the Pope cannot erre and that the Scriptures which he doth commend unto you are therefore Gods word then I would know of you why that spirit so resting and working in every particular Papist should not be esteemed a private spirit as well as that which works in every Protestant Mr. Fisher. Your spirit is a private spirit because he leads every one of you into severall opinions and private interpretations of Scripture which have never beene received in the Church nor commonly acknowledged of the godly Fathers and Doctors Mr. Walker If you have no more to say for your selfe than this I shall easily convince you by your owne mouth and prove from your owne words that the spirit of Papists not the spirit of Protestants is indeed a private spirit For first our spirit perswades us to receive for Gods infallible word no other Scriptures but those which by the common consent of all the ancient Fathers and of all sorts of Christians even of you Papists your selves are held for Canonicall but you Romanists receive divers Scriptures for Canonicali which by S. Hierome and other Ancients and by all the reformed Churches
you what I have seene with mine eyes and heard with mine eares this day But the thing which did most astonish the beholders was the desperate behaviour of the Popish Novice the procurer of this meeting who did in the time of this conference most lively expresse the slavish nature of a seduced Romane Catholike to whom God hath sent strong delusion to cleave to lies and to reject the truth For he did most manifestly shew as the standers by well observed that he came with a full purpose and resolution and an heart and forehead hardned to scoffe deride and gainesay whatsoever was said against the minde of his ghostly father Fisher the Iesuit whether good or bad and to extoll and admire with most intemperate noise and clamour whatsoever Fisher did averre without regard of right or wrong truth or falshood In so much that one time when Master Walker had spoken something which seemed to give content to the hearers and they openly applauded and the Novice as his manner was scoffing at the speech said to his younger brother and others neere unto him that he never heard a more absurd and foolish reason and that any childe might answer it Master Walker over-hearing urged him to tell wherein the absurditie and foolishnesse of his reason did consist and what it was But he was not able to repeat one word so that all the hearers laughed and condemned him for an headstrong foole in speaking evill of that which he neither knew nor cared to understand But all this could not bridle his tongue nor make his impudent face ashamed For a little after when Master Fisher the Iesuit was speaking something which Master Walker seemed to sleight and to smile at the popish Novice spake out in a passion more loud than ordinary to his brothers and others about him Loe there is an argument to the purpose which I warrant you can never be answered by the best of your Ministers let him answer it if he can Which Master Walker noting turned once more to the Novice and desired him to repeat that strong argument or if he could not doe that to tell the meaning or the matter of it but hee was not able to repeat a word nor to tell what was the matter in hand which made the beholders astonished at his desperate impudencie and wilfull blindnesse in so much that some sharply rebuked him to his face others blamed Fisher for nuzling him up and suffering him to goe on in such notorious impudencie and wilfull blindnesse and divers did not sticke to say that they never saw nor heard of such a dangerous example and that undoubtedly they perceived this Novice to be so devillishly addicted and devoted to his Master Fisher that if Fisher would blaspheme the name of Iesus Christ this Novice would iustifie his blasphemie and maintaine it unto death And thus the conference ended But at the breaking up the Iesuit gave in writing to be answered at leysure the confused speech before mentioned And Master Walker wrote downe an argument which he gave to him to be considered and directly answered in writing upon mature deliberation The summe of the Argument was this That Church which hath the chiefe properties of the great whore of Babylon mentioned Revel 17. is undoubtedly that great whore and the Church of Antichrist The present Church of Rome now subject to the Pope hath those properties ergo it is the great whore The assumption confirmed These following are the chiefe properties of the great whore First shee must bee such a Church as being once most famous and renowned over all the faithfull Spouse of Christ hath by degrees fallen away into spirituall whordome that is Idolatrie and Image-worship for the Scriptures doe never stile by the name of whore any Citie or Church but such as thus fall away Secondly shee must still hold her visible succession of Bishops in the same place and Sea and professe her selfe the chiefe spouse of Christ while she commits Idolatrie in the Churches of Christ and mingles it with his outward and verball worship and while hee doth by persecution sacrifice to her God Molech such children as she by meanes of the Scriptures and some parts of his worship which shee still after a sort retaineth hath begotten and borne to Christ. Thirdly shee must bee the mother of whoredomes by assuming to her selfe the power to canonize for Saints whom she pleaseth and to authorize the worship of them and their Images and by obtruding upon the Churches of other nations Cities and Countries her formes of idolatrous worship Now there is no Church or Citie in the world which hath or can have these properties but onely the present Church and Sea of Rome 1. For she was for faith renowned in all the world as Saint Paul Rom. 1. and many of the ancient Fathers in their writings doe shew 2. And she now continuing her visible succession of Bishops ever since the Apostles in the same place and Sea is become a worshipper of Images which is Idolatrie as all the world may see and observe 3. And though shee doth challenge to her selfe the authoritie to canonize Saints and to authorize all Image-worship going a whoring from Christ her first love after his pretended Vicar the Pope and his superstitions and obtruding upon all nations her abominations yet she still glories in the name of the chiefe spouse of Christ and under shew and colour of zeale and love to him doth persecute and murder such godly men as being converted to Christ by those meanes of Christianitie which shee still retaineth doe reprove and rebuke her for Idolatrie superstition and other vices as Ierusalem did when shee was a great spirituall whore and adultresse Ezech. 16. Therefore the present Church of Rome now subject to the Pope hath the chiefe properties of the great whore of Babylon and by consequence is that great Babylonish whore and the Church of Antichrist This argument being to this effect delivered in writing to the Iesuit hee departed and hath not yet returned an answer Onely hee sent within a few daies after to Master Walker by his disciple above mentioned certaine propositions which hee commonly carries about him as the chiefe weapons of his warfare and by which he doth provoke and challenge all Protestant Divines with whom hee doth meet in any place FINIS
censured and reproved by the hearers Wherefore to avoid all further urging in this point and for the escaping of more reproofe and censure he flies backe to the generall question concerning the word of God and taking a paper wrote downe his assent That the word of God comprehends in it 1. The Scriptures 2. Whatsoever by good consequence is gathered from the holy Scriptures And withall he wrote downe this question viz. who must be the Iudge when the Scriptures are doubtfull and when the question is of the goodnesse of the consequence And withall he professed that for his part he held the Church to be the Iudge and that when the Church hath iudged no private man must oppose Mr. Walker Mr. Walker on the other side professed that for the goodnesse of the consequence Logicians must judge by reason and the rules of Logicke And for the sense and meaning of the doubtfull places the Scripture is the best expositor of it selfe and the plaine places of it doe give light to the places which are obscure and doe best expound them And therefore every private person and the whole Church it selfe in matters doubtfull must flie to the Scriptures themselves as the last Iudge of controversies in matters of faith and salvation And here he asked Master Fisher if he durst in this controversie stand to the judgement of the ancient Fathers such as S. Augustine Chrysostome and others of that ranke Mr. Fisher. The Iesuit answered that he knew the Fathers were on his side and did altogether flie to the iudgement of the Church in matters of faith when any controversie did arise Mr. Walker That said Master Walker is most untrue the cōtrary shall be shewed presently out of their owne writings set forth and printed by Papists then calling for two volumes the one of S. Chrysostome upon Matthew the other S. Austens third Tome both printed and set forth by Papists as the inscription did shew and Fisher could not denie First he turnes to the Homilie of Chrysostome upon these words of the Gospel Math. 24. When you see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place then let him that is in Iudea flie to the mountaines and shewes the Authors exposition which was to this effect That when Antichrist rules and beares sway in the holy place the Church then all professors of Christian religion who are in the true Iudaea that is Christianitie must flie only to the Scriptures for they are the mountaines upon which the Church is founded according to that saying of David Her foundations are upon the holy mountains Psal. 87. 1. And in those daies when Antichrist sits and succeeds in the Sea of holy Bishops and over-rules all workes miracles and makes great shew of godlinesse in hypocrisie then the Church cannot be knowne by succession of Pastors nor by the miracles and holy life of teachers as in former ages but only by the Scriptures Mr. Fisher. The answer which the Iesuit gave to this testimonie was that this could not be proved to be the worke of Chrysostome Mr. Walker More shame said Master Walker it is to your Doctors and Printers who cite places out of this booke under the name of Chrysostome and doe print and set it forth in his name but suppose it be not the worke of Chrysostome yet you cannot denie it to be the worke of an ancient writer of great antiquitie and therefore it makes much against you being approved in the Church so many ages Neither shall you so escape For loe here in the third booke of S. Augustine De doctrinâ Christianâ which was never questioned but is generally received and acknowledged by all it is most plainly taught by the learned Father That the best way of expounding the Scriptures is in words which have many significations to observe the scope and circumstances of the place and thereby to expound them and to expound obscure places by comparing them with other plaine places of the Scriptures which speake of the same matter and subject Then hee shewed the words to Fisher and read them in Latine to him who could not deny them but heard them read with much impatiencie as his gestures shewed but when he began to expound them in English to the people there present the Iesuit could not containe himselfe but said Away this is nothing to the purpose we will examine these things some other time And when words would not prevaile hee reacheth with his hands to the booke and did strive to shut it that the words might not bee read notwithstanding Master Walker held it by strong hand and read the words which when the people present did heare and see they confessed that Fisher was openly convinced some of them told him that his owne conscience did witnesse against him and all condemned his impudencie joined with most intolerable and desperate obstinacie The Iesuit thus condemned on all sides and not able to outface the matter any longer did make shew as if he stood vpon coales and would gladly be gone and his Disciple who brought him thither being ready to helpe him at a dead lift when hee saw him so confounded calls vpon him to remember the place which they were to goe unto whereupon they made haste to depart but by much importunitie were staied and Master Walker still urging him to propound and prosecute one argument upon any question of controversie before they parted he answered that now there was no time but promised to dispute at some other time At length out of an earnest desire to draw one argument from the Iesuit he offered to him this advantage That if for the iustifying of any point or article of the Romish religion hee would make a perfect syllogisme in moode and figure and presently upon the deniall of any of the premises second it with a prosyllogisme not failing in forme to prove and conclude the proposition denied the point or article so farre proved should for this one time bee yeelded to him and he should haue libertie to make his best advantage of it for the justifying of any other point of Poperie which hee would presently dispute upon But all this could not prevaile to wring one syllogisme from him which made the hearers thinke that hee had no art nor skill to make an argument And that they did not thinke amisse nor erre in their opinion appeared by that which followed for although hee durst not undertake during the time of the conference to make one syllogisme or to propound an argument in forme yet at the breaking up when hee was ready to depart he tooke his paper and wrote downe and gave to Master Walker desiring him to answer at leasure this argument which followeth and which is yet to be shewed under his owne hand though perhaps to men of judgement it may seeme incredible that any Priest or Iesuit of his name and note should be so absurd as to propound for a syllogisme such a confused speech without forme