litle fade's and dye's For the second subsisting and cōtinuing multitude we see in all communities or common wealths there is a head common Councell or highest authoritie wherevnto all the members repaire in necessitie and by their connection therewith they receiue securitie life and motion in that morall kinde of being euerie man doing his dutie according to the lawes of that communitie and the head or supreme authoritie prouiding for the obseruance of the lawes in generall and particularly for the direction of such cases as the lawes reach not vnto So that if you take awaie this head or common wisdome the multitude must of necessitie be short liued and quickly come to ruine Hence it is euident to common sense and naturall reason that the church of Christ being a multitude ordained to subsiste and continew must not only haue the vnitie of similitude and be one by the similitude of actions which Christ hath prescribed and all Christians practize but also by the vnitie of connection to some common head and supreme Councell whereby it may conserue it selfe and keepe it's subiects in the continuance of the law of Christ and in the practize of those actions which he hath commanded And here you may note that were this law naturall there needed no more to be of the church then to be a member of this communitie The Want of the true rule of faith exclude's from the church and he would be out of it who should not participate of the two vnities But our Christian law being aboue nature and cōsequētly not to be learned by man's iudgmēt but by authoritie that is by receiuing it from Christ those who doe not receiue it by that meanes and rule by which Christ hath ordained it shall be receiued are not truly of this communitie whatsoeuer be their materiall beliefe and opinion Wherefore you are to considere farther that this Receipte of Christ's law and doctrine may haue beene ordained by Christ himself to be effected two seuerall waies First by word of mouth that is that this law and doctrine should be vocally taught and deliuered from hand to hand from father to sonne to the world's end secondly by writing Now therefore if Christ haue ordained both these waies who should not accept of them both is not truly and properly a Christiā nor consequently of the Christian communitie If Christ haue only instituted tradition to be the meanes and rule of the receite of his law and doctrine and hath giuen scripture only for superabundant instruction and consolation then who should reiect tradition and flye to the scripture making it his only rule and meanes of receiuing Christ's law and doctrine were not truly and properly a Christian nor of the Christian communitie Lastly if Christ haue ordained scripture alone to be this rule and meanes then who cleaueth to Tradition is not truly a Christian The resolution of this question doth properly belong to the Gouernors of the church who if they haue the true rule their subiects are safe if not their subiects soules will be required at their hands by whom they perish But I will take an other time to giue you a full resolution of this maine difficultie Three things are required to make a legitimate Christiā In the interim you may inferre out of this discourse to our present pourpose that three things are required to make one a legitimate Christian and such an one as euerie Christian ought to bee if he will be truly one of the communitie and church of Christ Though perhaps one may be in some sorte a Christiā and goe to heauen too by an exttaordinarie meanes without hauing all these three subsequent dispositions and qualities The first is that he belieue and practize the law of God which in respect of a particular man is but short and t' is in a word to loue God aboue all things The second is that he be vnited to the multitude of true Christians that is that he depende of the Gouerment left and instituted by Christ here vpon earth And for this pointe or qualitie as I doubt not but some one or few may be saued without it yea peraduenture with an opposition to it in fact through ignorance so his hart be true and without passion yet to thinke this a common ordinarie and high waie to saluation and that t' is as indifferent to liue from vnder this Gouerment setled by Christ as vnder it were ridiculous and absurde in common sense and reasō and in deede it were to annultate Christ's coming and make his law voide and fruitlesse And if you desire to conceiue the necessitie of this pointe more fully doe but reflect and considere the nature of all ciuill and politicall commonwealths wherein if anie member doe not liue vnder the Gouernors and depende of the Magistrats established by the highest power and authoritie thereof he cannot be truly and properly said to be a part and member of that communitie nor can he assuredly know ordinarily speaking nor constantly performe the law and orders of it The third pointe is that this communitie whereof euerie particular Christiā is to be a share and member hath the true rule and meanes to know and obserue the law of Christ And it is necessarie that this pointe be more exactly knowne by those who liue amongst diuersitie of opinions in this matter For where there appeares learned and morally good mē taking parts in this question a priuat man seeme's to haue iust reasō to doubt whether side he shall take for his guide and therefore this pointe well dicussed amōgst such giue 's a man full and generall satisfaction for his whole beliefe and practize And these two last pointes cleere one the other for that communitie which hath the true meanes of the receipte of Christ's law and doctrine that is the true rule of faith must of necessitie be it of and in which we are to seeke and shall finde Christ's law And contrariewise if we finde the true communitie we are sure it hath the true rule of knowing Christ's law and doctrine Hence it is that the Catholike church euer pressed hir Aduersaries with two speciall arguments 1. with the noueltie of their church shewing that none of them euer had a continuall visible succession 2. that they receiue not their opinions from their Ancestors and by them from Christ but that they were inuented at such a time against the receiued tenet of the church in that time that is traditiō for the church and noueltie of doctrine in hir Aduersaries And now I thinke you see the resolution of our first question Nephew I thinke I doe and t' is if I be not deceaued that such as professe to keepe the law of Christ though in effect they doe not performe it are to be accounted of the church and consequently sinners are not to be excluded so long as they submitte them selues to the churche's Gouerment established by Christ And on the other side though diuers
pretende to Christ's law and doctrine yet vnlesse they be ioyned and vnited to that coÌ„munitie which hath this gouerment and the true rule to know and continue Christ's law they cannot generaly speaking be saued HoW some may be saued out of the church But you said one thing which truble's me to wit that some be saued euen without these conditions which is against our commoÌ„ saying that there 's no saluatioÌ„ out of the church of God and therefore you know we labour to gett people reconciled and vnited to the church euen in the hower of their death which would not be so needfull if saluation could be had out of the church Vncle. Why cozen doe you not saye that euerie man hath two leggs two eyes and the like though some particular men be destitute of both we saye men cannot liue without meate and yet some haue liued manie yeares without it We saie men cannot liue in the water and yet t' is writt that the Portugalls in their discoueries found a man whose habitation was in the sea and came only to land as Crocodiles and seacalfes doe So you see we putt vniuersall denominations vpon the common and generall and that without preiudice to lawfull exceptions of rareties or prodigies You know there 's no generall rule but hath an exception and Logicians saie ars non curat de accidentibus ac fortuitis Nephew But I pray you shew me why t' is a rare accident for a man to be saued out of the church For example if we looke into the teneâ—â— of our Protestants I see not why they may not be said to hold sufficient pointes of faith both to attaine to the loue of God which is the cheefe path of saluation but also to liue an ordinarie and competeÌ„t good life amongst their neighbours which is the compleatnesse of God's law Vncle. Were not man a ciuill and sociall animall that is to liue with others I should not denye but a Protestant might more ordinarily be saued For as you said well they hold as manie tenents with the Catholike church as be in some sorte sufficient for the directioÌ„ of a priuate maÌ„'s life But God hath coÌ„manded euerie maÌ„ to haue care of his neighbour at least so farr as not to hinder him from such things as be necessarie to his saluation And manie things being necessarie to a multitude which are not needefull to euerie particular and priuat person he that hindre's the multitude from such necessarie meanes and assistance can neuer be saued himself As if some Prouince or part of a commonwealth should start vp and refuse diuers antient lawes necessarie for the good and peaceable liuing of the whole multitude some priuate men perhapps of this prouiâ—ce might so liue and beâ—iâ—â—â— them selues as to correspond and complie with the end and intention of the whole common wealth in vertue of some such other laws and status 〈◊〉 might be generally admitted and commonly receiued by them all but sure it is that the multitude and communitie of this prouince would neuer reach to this perfection wanting as we suppose seuerall laws and institutioÌ„s necessarâ—â— for them in common and in generall Now that the Catholike's tenents which the Protestants refuse and contradict are of this nature to witt that they are necessarie for the multitude t' is euident As Gouerment of the whole church and those lawes and Canons which these Gouernors vniuersally assembled doe ennact and ordaine for the good of the totall multitude and in particular praying for the deade praying to Sancts The vse of pictures Sacraments Ceremonies and the like which Christ or his Apostle's or their successors instituted for the benefit of the vniuersal communitie and multitude Amongst whom there being diuers tasts one is pleased with one thing an other with something else Wherefore the Protestants in contradicting these pointes hinder the multitude of their saluatioÌ„ supposing these things be good and necessarily ordained as we Catholikes suppose and as I will shew yoâ— presently and therefore tâ— pronounce generally of thâ— Protestants that they cannoâ— be saued though we doe noâ— absolutly exclude euerie particular man who through ignorance may for anie thinâ— I know be excused from thâ— guilt of Protestancie Nephew I am hartily glaâ— to heare you saie that somâ— may be excused for I shaâ— haue better hopes of some oâ— my deceased friends then hitherto I haue had But sinâ—â— you are fallen into this diâ—course I pray lett me vnderstand why the Protestants ceâ—sure vs of being vncharitable when we saye they shalbâ— damned vnlesse they be excused by ignorance For sure they them selues must needes saie as much of vs sithence they accuse vs of Idolatrie and other hainous crimes and consequently they must be as vncharitable as we or else they will runne into a contradition Vncle. The mixture of Protestants and Puritants in one common wealth hath and must of necessitie draw manie into errour who cannot distinguish which be Protestants which be Puritants nor whether's doctrine it is that vrged For this verie blaming of our vncharitablenesse which I thinke is as old as Protestancie it selfe sheweth that the true Protestants haue euer beene of this opinion that the disputes betwixt Catholikes and them were but matters of indifferencie I remember when I was a boy there dyed a vertuous Catholike a Kinsman of myne and at the same time dyed a morall honest Protestant and the countrie said they were both gone to heauen but the one by Rome the other by Geneua and so the Papist hath the longer iourney And the imputation which the people generally laid vpon Catholikes was that they oppressed men with too great and vnnecessarie burdens and forced men to their opinions And this caÌ„not be otherwise according to the grounds of Protestants for we haue all that they haue and more and in particular we refuse nothing that can be proued by scripture which is the maine principle of Protestanisme being the only rule and fundation of their beliefe and we damne as well as they who soeuer will not belieue what is euideÌ„t in the scripture only we sticke to what our forefathers haue taught vs according to the principles of nature common sense and the examples of all the laws and common wealths of the world vntill the contrarie be cleered against vs. Wherefore ProtestaÌ„ts being strongly vrged must ether saie in their heate that Catholikes can giue no probable or apparent answere to those places of the scripture which they bring and alledge against them which must needes be ether an ignorant or a madd man's speach or else that such questions as are disputed betwixt them and vs are of indifferencie and not of necessitie Wherefore I belieue that those who saie that they ought and may censure vs as freely as we censure them smell of Puritanisme leauing the Protestants in the maine pointe Nether is this to answere but to acknowledge that want of charitie which true Protestants obiect against vs and so
condemne themselues Why Catholikes censure Protestants so hardly But we Catholikes censure Protestants first becaus they refuse that which we hold to be the true rule of faith to witt the churche's authoritie or tradition And sithence the rule of faith runne's through the whole course of our beliefe ād is the tennor and principle vpon which we hold euerie particular article t' is euident that who doth not accepte of this right and true rule of attaining to the knowledge of Christian faith cannot belieue aright nor haue true faith but by chance and therefore will misse it for the most part Secondly this rule of ours tell 's vs that Protestant's negatiue positions are against the generall good of the multitude of Christians that is against charitie and God's law hindering them from diuers important and necessarie meanes conducing to saluation Lastly it were meere folly to leaue possession vpon a slight argument For as in equalitie the better proofe should carrie the cause the equall deuide it so where there is possession on the one side there nothing but such conuiction as the nature of the cause doth beare ought to waine possession otherwise no human possession would be stable and constant Now Catholikes are as certaine of these two pointes as that they liue and breath to witt that they haue possession And that there 's no euident conuiction hitherto passed and shewed against them Wherefore I see not why a Protestant should be offended that the Catholikes censure all their Aduersaries in generall so seuerely sithence t' is manifest that if they should not doe so they would not only betraye their owne principles but also denye their breetheren that fraternall rebuke and admonition which the law of God and good neighbourhood require's at the hands of men so persuaded as these grounds force and oblige vs to be Nephew Surely then this is the reason why the church now and then chasticeth such subiects as rebell in beliefe against hir which the Protestants so exclame at Vncle. T' is so in deede and being no other church can haue this principle against vs if at anie time they persecute vs for our faith and beliefe they must needes doe it more out of passion and reuenge then out of anie rationall loue and knowing zeale to God and Religion And now cozen I hope you conceiue the extreme necessitie and maine importance of these pointes which we haue talked of being such as that the church of God cannot subsiste without them and essentiall to Christ's coming to witt to establish some to haue the charge and care of teaching and gouerning his church And that these teachers and Gouernors haue great credit and authoritie euen supernaturall and more then human And that their iudgment in matters of beliefe and Religion is to stand good nor may be subiected to the weake and wauering iudgmēt of the laietie that is of men ignorant in the principles of their science and discipline And lastly that being thus vnited they haue the true and right rule of knowing Christ's law and those things which are to be belieued and practized All which you see are of that nature that the verie essence of a Christian church and communitie cannot subsiste and continue without anie of them all And without such a church the Generalitie of mankinde cannot be maintained in charitie nor without charitie arriue to eternall Happinesse for which both charitie and all these other pointes are absolutly necessarie This hath beene the chaine of our discourse hitherto if you haue well vnderstood and conceiued my intention Which likewise you see I haue done by the light of common sense and reason according to my promis And sithence you would haue me to goe this waye and nether flye vp to sublime metaphysickes nor drowne your memorie with tedious allegations of authors we will still continue in the same path insisting in the principles of nature and shewing that diuers pointes of our faith and practise which the Protestants deney are euen by their conformitie to naturall reason it self ād by their owne proper force and efficacitie of causing and producing good and vertuous effects in a Christian cōmunitie and thereby contributing to saluation are I saie of no smale consequence and importance First therefore tell me whether you thinke there be anie other necessitie in respect of the pointes controuerted betwixt vs and the Protestants then this absolute and maine one which we haue alreadie talked of I meane whether there be not an other necessitie which though not altogether so great in it self and of it's owne nature yet such an one as is sufficient to make a pointe of importance and of such importance as that to reiecte it would be a lawfull and iust cause to refuse and denye communion to the refractarie and obstinate opposers thereof And lett vs put the question thus §. 8 Whether some pointes may not be of necessitie in a lower degree as in particular the vse of pictures or Images NEphew I told you before how I thought necessitie might be distinguished into an absolute necessitie and into a necessitie of a meanes for abtaining the thing we desire with greater ease and cōueniencie and you liked well of it But me thinke's it were a hard case to depriue anie man of that meanes and qualitie without which he cannot absolutly attaine to his end that others may come to their ends with greater ease and securitie And therefore I should thinke that no other necessitie but an absolute one were sufficient to deserue excommunication which I take to be a depriuing of a partie from that without which he cannot obtaine eternall Blisse Vncle. Why cozen lett vs suppose that in a communitie of one hundreth thousand nyntie thousand would neuer attaine to Blisse though absolutly they could vnlesse the waye were made easie doe you thinke it were fitt or tollerable in anie one or in a douzen to take awaie the meanes whereby the waye were facilitated to the rest Nay suppose ten thousand of the hundreth thousand would arriue to happinesse with great paines and labours were it not better in the Gouernor's eye who ought to be a common father to them all to lett the thenth part perish then all the other nine Nephew I confesse I see myne ouersight for truly the church is bound in such a case to proceede with rigor And the partie which will not condescende to helpe the frailtie of their breetheren doth by this very fact deserue to loose the protection of charitie which it willfully abandon's And in effect such a partie hath alreadie putt it selfe out of the secret communitie of God's church and the Gouernor is only to performe it in externall apparence Vncle. Add to this cozen that such a partie doth willfully stand out in this manner vpon pride and faction to iustifie their opinion And that they trench vpon the Gouermēt ordained by Iesus Christ them selues not being caled therevnto proudly setting themselues in the seate of iudgment to
whether you doe not thinke that this church Whereof the particular church of Rome was a part and peraduenture the principall Was not to bee obeyed by euerie particular man and euerie particular church she being the whole they but meÌ„bers or parts Shee hauing receiued Christs doctrine and therefore able to teach it she hauing receiued the Keyes of heauen and therefore who refused to heare hir should be esteemed as a heathen or Publican And in a word she being the spouse of Iesus Christ and the mother of this faithfull children Nephew All this is so euideÌ„t that I thinke nether Protestant nor Puritant will deny it But what doe you drawe out of this Vncle. Nay softly cozen I must aske you one question more before I conclude anie thing and it is What became of this church when it fell froÌ„ Christ I meane were the men and their gouernors sodainly extinct and others raised in their places or did there still continue a publicke face and successiue gouerment of the same church euen in their errors and so the externall church remained and descended to our days though with corrupt faith and doctrine Nephew This I doubt not likewise but euerie one will grant you for all the Protestants that euer I heard doe acknowledge it nor doe I imagine that anie will deny it Vncle. Why then cozen wee will draw this conclusion that That church which is now in communion with the particular church of Rome was once the true church or if you please to saie she was but a part of the true church so let it bee at least she had the true faith and doctrine and euerie particular man or church with in hir owne compasse was obliged to obey hir as hauing those worthie titles which you acknowledge euen now to bee then due vnto hir But now if a Protestant telleth you shee hath since fallen and lost those goodly titles How would you conuince him or at least can you tell me §. 2 What force the arguments of Protestants against Catholikes in this question ought to haue NEphew To conuince a Protestant in this point I would haue recourse to bookes and learned men who should mantaine and shew that his position were false for I am not so well learned as to bee able to proue it of my selfe Vncle. I hold you not for a warie gamester at this play for why would you leaue your best waâ—d and put your self vpon the disaduantage I meane why will you put your self to proue the negatiue your aduersarie being obliged to conuince the positiue for if he coÌ„fesse as he doth our church was once the true church we haue the presumption on our side vntill he proue the contrarie Besides our church was once the spouse of Christ by their owne verdict though now the stile hir the whore of Babilon Erroneous and Adulteresse And how I pray you cozen would your self take it if one should laye the like imputation vpon your bedfellow without sufficient proofe to make it good And imagine Christ Iesus will be no lesse offended to see his deare spouse whoÌ„ he bought and washed with his owne harts blood so shamefully traduced without a legitimate cause and iust occasion Doe you thinke hee will not brand such accusors for infamous and sacrilegious calumniators Or if such an accusor should faille of his proofe doth he not conuict him self of the most heynous crime that can be imagined And likewise if this same church was erected and instituted by God him self for our lawfull Ladie and true Gouernesse can you thinke that who reuolteth from the loyaltie and obedience due vnto hir without euident proofe of hir escheate from that throne and dignitie doth not declare him self a traytor and rebell to God and her And in a word if shee once were that church to whom Christ gaue the rodd of iustice and sent all professours of his name to heare hir voice and sentence vnder penaltie of being reputed heathens and publicans doth not hee incurre those curses and deserue those ignominious titles who doth leaue hir and deuide him self from hir without legall warrant of his separatioÌ„ Doth not therefore common sense conclude that who soeuer confesseth the Roman Catholike church to haue beene the true aÌ„d lawfull church of Christ is by this verie deede obliged to proue cleerely and euidently hir fall from that maiestie or els in his owne conscience and iudgment must needes bee lyable to those faule and vnworthie taintes of trayson and rebellion against God and his church Nephew I confesse you speake no parables nor is there anie deepe learning required to conceiue the euidence of your discourse Yet this I must tell you that I feare you might haue spared your labour for there 's no protestant but will easily vndertake to proue that the RomaÌ„ church is gone astraie for if they cannot doe this they can doe nothing their whole Religion being but as they them selues confesse a taking awaye of abuses crept in and their Diuinitie no other then to shew this And if you would shew their proofes to be insufficient I feare you would require a greater scholler then my self to comprehende your reasons Vncle. Bee not discouraged nephew but looke into the case and tell mee what Kind of proofes you thinke the Protestants are bound to bring to 〈◊〉 them selues from those heauie censures I tould you of Doe you thinke it were sufficient to bring such arguments as some philosophers brought to proue snow to be blacke Or such as by man's wit and the art of topickes a good logician may frame vpoÌ„ a subiect giuen him in which kinde some great men haue taken pleasure to commende baldnesse blindnesse and the like imperfections others to contradicte manifest truths as that there neuer was anie warre of Troy Nay doe you thinke cozen t' is sufficieÌ„t that their arguments bee only as good as those which the Catholikes bring against them Or in a word ought not their arguments to bee euident and vnanswerable in euerie indifferent and vnderstanding man's iudgmeÌ„t That is should they not be such as that a man expert in controuersies and of a sound and vnpassionate iudgment hauing seene what the most learned Catholikes can saie against the protestants proofes must neuerthelesse thinke in his hart that they nether haue giueÌ„ nor can giue anie contenting and satisfactorie answere therevnto Nephew The plaine truth is if it were my case betwixt my wife and my self I should not thinke to haue corresponded with my loyaltie towards hir nor with that care of hir honnour which I ought to haue vntill I had ventured my life to haue his harts blood who should haue sought to wrong hir reputatioÌ„ so highly without such proofe as you require Nether doe I beleeue that anie Prince or state would thinke him a loyall subiect who should conceale and foster that man that should disperse and so we in the harts of their subiects the like suspicions against their gouermeÌ„t T' is true I
disciples and the people vnderstand perfectly and fully comprehende all pointes of Christian doctrine to resolue all doubts and difficulties to make the apprehension of the doctrine sincke into the verie soules of the people and to setle a forme of Gouerment and Conuersatiō and to invre the first Christiās to the practize of this doctrine whereby it might subsist and continue as long as possibly it could For this I see is the dictamē of prudence and wisdome in such a case and the course all those who foūd new institutions Vncle. You saie well And surely such a time for a litle Prouince of about two or three dayes iournay's semidiameter was verie sufficient for the instructing of their disciples in all materiall pointes and setling of instructers to succeede them But in case immediately after the decease or departure of the Apostle there should arise according to our sauiours forewarning false Prophets or Rauenous wolues vnder pretence of sainctitie endeauoring to deuoure the flocke nay that euen some amongst them selues out of vanitie should beginne some new doctrine How controuersies were decided immediatly after the Apostles drawing disciples after them and so making them selues head of a partie and of a doctrine contrarie to that which the Apostle had taught vrging reasons out of nature and texts out of that Apostles owne writings by whom they were taught or out of his follow Apostles and strengthen his partie by the adherence of manie of the weaker sort what I saie would the Gouernors and teachers of the faithfull doe in this case How would they behaue thē selues to hinder the ruine of their weaker breetheren Nephew I doe imagine that meeting together they would examine this new Doctrine taking sor their rule that doctrine which the Apostle deliuered vnto them And knowing that he could nether contradict him self nor anie of his Breetheren being all inspired by the Holy Ghost they would conclude that the Innouators reasons were captious his texts wrong vnderstood if they were obscure or corrupted if they were plaine For nothing could be so euident vnto them as that which for three yeares together had beene perpetually beaten into them where in they had beene continually examined and cleered and which had beene so long the fundation of their new manner of life and practize so that this must needes be the most euident vnto them of all things and therefore they would surely forgoe all other rules to gouerne them selues by this as being most frie from errour Vncle. Your conclusion follow 's plainely For they hauing no other stay of their beliefe then that S. Paul for example had taught them so t is cleere that to them these two questions were but one whether the opiniō proposed was true and whether it was accordimg to what S. Paul had taught them And therefore to be against that which they had beene taught to them was to be false So that there nether was nor could be anie other question in the church at that time in matters of faith but whether the Apostles had taught such a doctrine or no For the Apostles hauing spēt so much time in teaching Christian doctrine in so litle a Prouince what they had not taught must needes be presumed not to be necessarie and consequently not deseruing to make a schisme and breach amongst Christiās and what they had taught to be without all controuersie true and certaine Wherefore if such an Innouator would not stand to this iudgment he was to be expelled the church as disagreeing from the Christians in the principall rule and soueragne Tribunal of Christianitie by which and only which they could at that time decerne and decide what was Christian doctrine what not Happie that age in which it was so easie to resolue anie difficultie arisning for it was no more then to meete together and aske one an other How haue you beene taught And all was ended and who should haue resisted this decision was to be cast out with common consent as a reprobate But tell me cosen how long doe you thinke this Happinesse cōtinued in the church Nephew For the time of the Apostles and of their disciples who are commonly caled Apostolicall men ther 's no question to be made no nor of the age of the disciples of these Apostolicall men To whom I see not why I may not add yet an other age for doubtlesse those Apostolicall men must needes haue beene of that reputation as that what soeuer was constantly remembred to haue beene their doctrine was likewise to be esteemed the doctrine of the Apostles their Masters supposing it was knowne to bee vniuersally and generally theirs and not the opinion of some one or two of them only Vncle. And will it be a stumbling blocke vnto you if we add yet an other descent to wit of the Grandchildren of these Apostolicall mē for the memorie of publicke and generally practized things is fresh from Grandfathers vnto their Grandchildren So that this degree or goldē age may well consist of fiue descents that is of some 200 yeares allowing 40. yeares to a descēt which is not much seing that witneses of 60. yeares are ordinarily found in euerie busines in the same Prouince and therefore where the question is of a publicke and vniuersall practize which concernes manie countries and nations who haue intercourse and communication together such witneses may be much more easily found But what shall we saie of the next ensuing age Nephew I conceiue that these descents you speake of may easily haue reached to Constātine's time when Christian Religiō being publicke the multitudes of fathers and writers would supplie the deiect of this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or self seeing into the well spring of Christianitie But whether you driue that waie or no I know not Vncle. It is not needfull for sithence the last age doth directly know what was the Apostles doctrine All such ages as can reach to knowe the doctrine and practize of that last age are able certainely to resolue though in a lower degree anie arising difficultie not because they cā immediately tell that such a pointe is contrarie to the doctrine of the Apostles but because they can tell that t' is against the doctrine of the fist descēt which doctrine they know to be the dokrine of the Apostles Wherefore vpon the like ground we may add fiue descēts more which according to our former computation will make vp 400. yeares und peraduenture by extēt may reach to fiue or 600 yeares after Christ that is to the second conuersion of nations I meane to the conuersion of those barberous people which ouerunne the Roman Empire and brought almost all the world backe vnto the formerly extirpated paganisme Nephew Why then wee neede no more for the Protestāts confesse that Poperie hath raigned since Phocas his time nay they sticke not to saie that Gregorie the Great was the last good and first bad Pope seeming to thinke that frō him beganne that which they
haue the same effect yea nature it self and it's Author would be ouercome if such long violence could so oppresse it as to extinguish it It being nature's cheefe flower and greatest treasure planted by the expresse handy worke of the omnipotent and wise framer thereof Nephew Your discourse seemee's good for I see that meÌ„ who in a case of great importance will not be content with what is proportionall to their capacitie but seeke a certitude so great as them selues are not capable to iudge of being not beaten to thoses sciences in which such certaintie is vsuall those men I saie must needes come short of what they desire if truly they doe desire it for I belieue the affectioÌ„ of wealth pleasure or some fore-made iudgment doth carie them against the simple and plaine directioÌ„ of free reason How soeuer vncle seeing it was so easie for the church to haue beene conserued entire in faith me thinke's it should not be hard to shew in effect and in particular from age to age that it hath beene conserued Vncle. If we could proue that Bishops ether in Generall or Nationall Councells had once in two or three hundreth yeares taken care that no corruptioÌ„s should be introduced this might be effected but that depende's vpon bookes 〈◊〉 and historie which you and wil not now medle withall Nephew I belieue those histories are not so doubtfull but that generally Protestants doe aÌ„d will acknowledge theÌ„ And by my pore skill I know that there neuer passed 300. yeares since Christ's time without a Councell and without condemning some hereticke so that t' is cleere the church hath had sufficieÌ„t care in this kinde Yet because I haue heard your self complaine of the slouth of men who seeke not into the grounds of scieÌ„ces and often saie that fair more theÌ„ is might be knowne if the principles were rightly laide for it and the waie trodden nay that all God's workes hang so together by connection of causes and effects as that there 's no effect whose cause by diligence might not be found I must therefore intreate you to condescende a litle euen to the hardnesse of those men's harts who require more in this subiect then in anie other and seeke the cause why the church and faith of Christ cannot faille For sitheÌ„ce we haue found by experieÌ„ce these 1600. yeares that it hath not so failed as that it hath not euer beene generally and vniuersally visible and hath both dured and florished thus long surely it hath some forcible cause and in deede such an one as can neuer faile but will still worke the same effect And this were to shew That noe great errour could creepe into the church of God VNcle Cosen you laie toâ—â— what aske vpon me Who knowe's why the world hath dured thus long Or why mankinde was not extinct manie yeares agoe And must I tell you why God's church hath not nor cannot faile I am ashamed to answere euerie licentious braine the negatiues of a wittie naturalist may pose the most learned Christian vpon earth Yet to content you I will endeauour aboue my strength but you must ease me a litle and answere me to what your self see 's euident First you know that the church being the Congregation of the faithfull cannot faile but by the losse of faith How faith is lost And faith may be lost two waies by ignorance or by errour For so we see a particular man who once had faith if he come to loose it t' is ether by negligence and not conning it and so forgette's it or else 〈◊〉 disswaded from it and induced to belieue some differrent doctrine So likewise to a multitude of men the one or the other must needes happeÌ„ or else they cannot be depriued of the faith which they once had And because pure ignorance is a meere negatiue or not knowing the first question I will aske you is Whether you thinke a people once instructed in anie Religion can so forget it as that they fall not into some other Religion â—â— but liue quite without anie Religion at all Nephew Truly I thinke it impossible both because I neuer heard of anie nation that had no Religion at all no not the Caniballs as also because I haue heard that absurde Religions haue continued from father to sonne for manie generations together and neuer left vntill an other Religion was brought in and then too with much adoe the people being loth to be drawne from their former beliefe Yet if one should confidently saie the contrarie why all people haue some Religion I doe not know how to conuince him Vncle. You must looke into the causes which make men Religious aÌ„d if you finde theÌ„ to be vniuersall and perpetuall you may be sure that all sortes of Peoples haue some Religion in theÌ„ though more or lesse according as these causes are more or lesse in force amongst them But lett vs knowe can you tell me what is Religion in generall as it is commone to both true and false Nephew I imagine Religion to be a conceite or persuasion of the people concerning one or more what is ReligioÌ„ in generall excellent natures which gouerne humane life giuing vs those goods which of our selues we cannot attaine vnto aÌ„d inflicting vpoÌ„ vs those paines whereof we doe not knowe the causes And this persuasion reacheth also to the manner and forme of pleasing this or these Gouernors and commanders Whereby to obtaine goods and eschew euills And the reason why I make this conceite of Religion is because I see these things are in all sorts of Religion and all authours which write of the Religion of what nation soeuer touch cheefely these pointes Vncle. Your remarque is good Which be the causes of ReligioÌ„ and Why it cannot perish and if you looke into your definition you shall finde the causes of Religion You saie Religion is a conceite of the Gouernors of man's life in giftes and punishments whose causes we doe not knowe Then you see Religion must needes be a faith for when we doe not know things we cannot make anie conceite of theÌ„ but by belieuing and trusting others whom we thinke know the things that we know not and therefore Religion in generall is taken vpon trust Farther you saie that ReligioÌ„ is a methode of pleasing those Gouernors whereby to get goods and eschewe euills so that the desire of goods and the feare of euills are the authors and causes of Religion we haue then hopes and feares for the will ignorance and a conceite of an other man's knowledge for the vnderstanding which be the parents of Religion Now thinke you cosen can these causes be defectiue and fayling in anie age Nephew Surely they cannot For it were no generation of men but beasts that were so doÌ„ltish and sottish as to see so manie goods and harmes which happen to all men wee know not whence and thinke that there were no cause thereof And therefore it is the
waywardnesse or carelessenesse they will not looke after it Suerly I cannot see but t' is only to the increase of their damnation Like vnto an ambitious man who whilest he is yet a farr of from the honnour which he aspire's vnto he can beare it patiently but if once he come to a faire possibilitie and haue it as it were in his hand ô Then if he misse it he is incapable of all comfort and consolation and thinke's him selfe the most vnhappy and vnfortunate man in the word So I conceiue that when a soule is out of hir bodie and come's to see how easily she might haue attained to that eternall Blisse and Happinesse where vnto she was ordained and that through hir owne neglect and carelessenesse she is now to be euerlastingly depriued thereof ô God! Vncle how infinitely will she be greeued how she will curse hir selfe and thereby increase hir paine and miserie Vncle. You saie well cozen Can you doubt therefore or can a Christian thinke but t' is a pointe of great necessitie to man Kynde If there be anie order established by Christ Iesus in his church to make men embrace accepte and poursue those facile meanes to saluation that they know and belieue it Can a man of common sense and iudgment immagine chat this is not a pointe of maine importance Or that who disagree's about this position doth only disagree in matter of opinion wherein each one may hold what he pleaseth and not in a matter substantially and fundamently necessarie to saluation Nephew I confesse Vncle when I coÌ„sidere the frailtie of man and see how easily and ordinarily he is withdrawne from willing and following the meanes of his beatitude by the least terrestriall sensuall and momeÌ„tarie pleasure it where madnesse in me to belieue that supposing there be anie such order established by Christ in his church to incite and prouoke men to accepte and practize these sauing meanes it were I saie madnesse not to thinke the knowledge and beliefe of such an order to be one of the most important and necessarie pointes of christian doctrine Vncle. Remember then cozen the three stepps or degrees we talked of before of knowing esteeming and poursuing anie good And you will finde that for the first it is necessarie the truth of Christian doctrine be conserued and often inculcated in to the harts and mindes of Christians for the second that those who are to doe this haue such qualities as wil giue them credit and make men belieue them and for the third that there be meanes taken so farr as human nature giueth leaue to cutt of all such impediments as hinder men from preferring eternall good before the temporall teÌ„ptations and sensuall pleasures of this life The first of these conditions requireth that there be men appointed to haue care of the people by instructing and often putting them in minde of Christian doctrine Which if Christ haue done t' is euideÌ„t that whosoeuer seeketh to change his order and appointment doth not quarell vpon a sliglt pointe but vpon a most waightie and necessarie one Nephew I see well that who seeketh to distroye such an order established by Christ playe's with his church as Esope's wolues played with the sheepe offering them prey vpon condition they would deliuer vp their doggs vnto them which being done they slew and preyed vpon the sheepe And me thinke's common sense telleth me there cannot be a pointe in all ChristiaÌ„ doctrine of greatter importance then this For when I considere why treason is the greattest offence that can be committed in a common wealth I see t' is because no law can subsiste and hold without guardes and lookers to it so that who striketh at these guardes in a common wealth of what nature so euer it be striketh at the verie essentiall forme of it at all the lawes and at all what so euer doth conserue the peace and libertie of the whole people and multitude where vpoÌ„ the common wealth doth subsiste Wherefore t' is euident by naturall reason that who seeketh to remoue and abolish those whom God hath plaâ—ed to guarde his church striketh at the totall ruine thereof Vncle. T' is true and therefore you maie inferre that questioÌ„s of the Pope's authoritie ouer Bishopps of Bishopps authoritie ouer Priests and of Priests authoritie ouer the laietie are of no smale moment And that who goe's about to distroye this Hierarchie aymeth at no lesse then the vtter ouerthrow of Religion and ruine of the church planted by Christ Iesus with so much sweate and blood and espoused so dearely vnto him with his sacred promises These are the Angells to whoÌ„ God hath trusted and committed the charge of his flocke These are they by whose continuall succession we conuince the perpetuitie of the Catholike church These are the men who when anie new Blasphemie arriseth meete in Councells to giue testimonie to the doctrine of Christ euer dwelling in the harts of the faithfull and thereby crush the serpeni's head These are they who in their wisdomes may and ought enacte lawes and Canons to Christ's flocke and correct abuses creeping in both in discipline and moralitie leauing still vntouched Christ's sacred institutions And therefore who seeketh to extirpate or infringe this authoritie in the church setteth his axe at the roote of faith and vertue by which the church of Christ doth subsiste Nay euen in schismaticall churches the wiser and more learned sort of men haue euer detested and abhorred the confused Anarchie of braine-sicke Puritants And t' is said that wise state's men doe vehemently suspect and haue iust cause to suppresse all Anâ—y-Hierarchists Nephew Certainely no prudent and moderate man can doubt of the importance of this pointe And me thinke's vncle these zealous societies doe to the mainteners of this Hierarchie as Diogenes did to Plato scorning his vanitie with a farr greater pride for whilest they crye out against the pride of those who seeke these dignities established by Christ in his church they discouer a farr greater pride in them selues by endeauoring to distroy so sacred an institution that they them selues may vsurpe the power and place But to the second degree and condition of the diuision you made doe you thinke §. 4 That the administration of the sacraments by the Hierarchie is of such great necessitie VNCLE How saie you cozen what power preeminencie and qualities doe you thinke are necessarie for these guardes and teachers of Christ's law and doctrine to the end that the people may conceite such things as they tell them and thinke them to be of moment for surely the most part of men haue neede of all the helpes that may be to eleuate and raise their mindes to celestiall cogitations Nephew I see well enough that such men must needes haue credit with the people and ought not only to be accounted wise and good men but should be also esteemed wiser and better then the laietie for I haue heard the Prophet's curse cited sicut
to be suspected as not true to anie authoritie though he professe to acknowledge it Vncle. Softly cozen softly there 's nothing more frequteÌ„ amongst men then through passion and ouersight to forsake their owne principles and contradict in one matter what them selues confesse in an other And therefore although it be true by coÌ„sequeÌ„ce of reason that who soeuer doth rise against the church in this kinde may vpoÌ„ the same grounde and principle be false to anie other authoritie or gouerment yet vpon other reasons or by not seeing the consequence of his fact he may likewise be true and faithfull And therefore it were rashnesse to condemne for this reason alone those truths which such an one may perhapps mantaine in other matters Howsoeuer is not our coÌ„clusion manifest that there is no place for Ifs and And 's in our case where there can be no euidence brought against a pointe of doctrine which the highest Tribunall and Iudgment vpon earth hath alreadie decreed But suppose some one or few of these innouators had Euidence on their side yet the vulgar people whom they putt on to mutinie cannot haue it no nor anie certaintie that these their ring leaders haue Euidence being not able to compare vnderstandingly the worth of diuers men in a busines which surpasseth their capacitie And therefore this common people in such a case must neede 's proceede and doe whatsoeuer they doe vpon passioÌ„ surprise or interest And consequently those innouators who moued caried and pressed them therevnto cannot be excused from being culpable of temeritie obstinacie and Archi-Rebellion Yet as a Prince doth some times coÌ„descende to his Rebellious subiects that he may gaine time and so bring them to reason as Roboam's wiser Councell thought fitt to giue eare to the cryes of the communities for once that they might serue him euer after So I doubt not but the church both may and will relent some times a litle to establish hir Gouerment and good order more strongly an other time Nor is she to be reprehended if contrariewise she be rigorous vpoÌ„ occasions to witt when she see 's that relenting weaken's hir authoritie and doth rather increase then assuage the mutinie But what is now and then conuenient to be done that belong's to them who are in place to iudge And for vs to obey and sâ—ill suppose they doe the best Nephew Hitherto vncle me thinke's I am well satisfied but there 's a maine difficultie about the diuersitie of the rule of faith I pray tell mee doe you not thinke §. 7 That the maintenance of the vnitie of the church is of extreme great necessitie FOr we professe you know that tradition or the receite of our doctrine from father to sonne is our cheefe authoritie and our prime motiue of faith All others will acknowledge no other rule then their owne interpretatioÌ„ of the scripture This in my minde is the most important question of all the controuersies in Religion and vpon the resolution of this pointe doth rely and depende all other disputs and difficulties of christian faith nay eueÌ„ our being truly and properly Christians or faithfull For if Christ was a lawmaker not euerie one who professeth his name but who obserueth his law is truly a Christian What it is to be a Christian And if Christ haue sett downe a certaine rule or manner and certaine Magistrats by whom we are to know this law whosoeuer doth not follow that rule and acknowledge those Magistrates cannot be said to obserue his law and consequeÌ„tly professe Christ's name wrongfully Vncle. Doe you thinke cozen that who doth not obserue Christ's law is no Christian what then shall become of sinners shall none of them be ChristiaÌ„s nor of the church of Christ you will make a church of only Elects or Predestinates as the Puritants doe Nephew It may be I goe to farr yet certainely who doth not keepe Christ's law or professe to keepe it is no Christian But then me thinke's I goe to farr on the other side for all those that professe Christ's name doe likewise professe to keepe his law how litle soeuer they doe Vncle. Why then cozen I will helpe you out and open the state of the question vnto you First you must know that this word Ecclesia in it's primitiue sense signifieth a meeting or coÌ„gregatioÌ„ of meÌ„ called out of a greater multitude What is a church as a Councell or Senate is And becaus the first ChristiaÌ„s were called in that manner by Christ and his Apostles Ioh. 15. Ego vos elegi de mundo therefore we properly and deseruedly call the multitude of ChristiaÌ„s a Church Now a multitude called to gether is not only and simply a multitude which may importe confusion but a multitude gathered together and vnited wherein consist's the vnitie of the church If you aske wherein this multitude we speake of is vnited t' is knowne that t' is to doe the will of the caller who being Iesus that is sauiour or Director to saluation their calling must be to walke the paths of saluatioÌ„ And sithence we haue no other Maister of our saluation but Iesus Christ t' is euident that the vnitie of his church must consiste in the obseruance of his law Secondly you are to note that there are two sortes of vnities the one of similitude the other of connection We saie all men are of one nature that 's an vnitie of similitude we saie likewise all the parts of a man though dislike in themselues make one man there 's an vnitie of connectioÌ„ Now if the church of Christ had beene to continue only for his owne or his Apostle's time the former vnitie would haue serued Nay euen now if all the Christians who liue at this day doe and performe the same things practize the same faith and good life and vse the same Sacraments This vnitie of similitude would suffice to make the church of Christ one for the present but could not make it subsiste and continue there being no connection amongst the parts and members of this multitude to make them sticke together Wherefore Christ hauing planted a multitude of faithfull which he intended should subsiste and continue for manie ages no doubt but he hath giuen them such an vnitie as is necessarie for coÌ„tinuance Thirdly therefore you must note that there are two sortes of multitudes in this world which subsiste and continue the one naturall as the parts of a liuing creature the other morall as the members of communities or commonwealths and both haue their proportionall vnities For the first we see that in plantes all the members haue a due connection to the roote from which being cutt of the part dyeth for want of continuitie In other liuing creatures we likewise finde at hart or some thing else that supplie's it's function by connectioÌ„ wherevnto euerie part receiueth life and subsistence and whose passage or communication with that hart being stopped and cutt off the part by litle and
Reuerencing their reliques and pictures 3. In hoping good of them by praying vnto them For we naturally thinke the greatest goods to be in those who deserue honour and can-doe good to others and therefore we neuer make anie great conceite of those things whence we can nether expect anie good nor wherevnto we thinke no honour due Nephew I cannot but interrupt your discourse with admiration to see how men who suerly had not cast awaie all thoughts of vertue sithence they had so manie followers and were in so great esteeme should vnder slight pretences so weaken the maine strings by which pore men were drawne to heauen and that for a litle vanitie and desire to appeare more learned then others How true is it vncle that man hath no foe but him self For not all the Tortures and Tyranies not all the inundations of waters and rauagings of fires that can be immagined could euer haue donne so much harme to man kinde as the verie taking awaie of the esteeme and conceite which we Catholikes haue of the excellencie and greatnesse of Saincts and of the happy estate which they enioye and which is the end we all ayme at Vncle. Oh! cozen if Alexander Cesar or anie of your great glorie hunters had considered in their life time what now peraduenture to their great greefe they cannot be ignorant of the difference that there is euen in this worldly and vaine glorie betwixt Peeter the fisherman or Paul the tentmaker who neuer aymed at this honour but thought it worse then the dust which they shaked from their shooes and them selues who poursued it so keenely with perpetuall dāger of their liues wasting their estates and Coūtries and ruining their neighbours if this I saie they had then knowne would they not haue changed their mindes and followed other courses And doe they not now mauger them selues and teare their verie soules in pieces to see their owne follie and their no lesse witlesse then gracelesse ambition And doe you not then thinke that the holy church vseth in this a most efficacious meanes to bring men to a vertuous life being she doth by this doctrine of honoring and praying to Saincts so strongly commende vnto vs the glorie and Blisse after which we ought to thirst and hope if we be true Christians Nephew For the two first points I confesse you haue reason but for the third I feare you will not come so well of For the easier it is to obtaine anie good the more wee esteeme it ours and consequently the more hart we haue to goe about it And what waie can be thought more easie then to make a cōceite of Christ's goodnesse and thinke that without anie paines or deserts on our side he will giue vs that great reward according to his owne pleasure more or lesse purely and only out of his mercie and goodnesse whitout anie respect or regarde to our workes or liues in this world Whereas we Catholikes make the gates of heauen so narrow and the paths therevnto so rougged that we seeme rather to deterre then exhorte men to vertuous liues Vncle. If ether we or they could thinke to come to Blisse whithout good life I should not wōder at your propositiō for in that case it were the best and only course to haue a great confidēce in him whose guift it is But if Christ hath nether left anie such waie nor you or anie vnderstanding mā belieue that faith with a wicked and carelesse life will bring a mā to saluatiō Cā you thinke that such an exaggeration of faith and confidence and such a disesteeming of good workes can be a meanes to persuade and incite men to sticke closse and persiste in vertuous actions which by all our confessions are requisite and necessarie to saluation Surely the Catholike church taketh the securer waie And the reason is because workes in the waie of merite that is done for God's sake and with hope of heauen cannot be without faith but how easie it is for a man to persuade him selfe that he hath much faith without working we finde by dayly experience Hence it is that the Catholike church doth moue and persuade vs to labour for our eternall happinesse by proposing vnto v the examples of men The force of examples in man's life as we are who haue made this great conquest in the most exact and solemne act of canonization of Saincts And also of others who by professing of extraordinarie labours make it appeare that the waie is not so hard but that manie dayly treade the paths of it I meane in Religious professions in which all sortes of austerities are dayly practized before our eyes which ought not to be derided and scorned as manie doe For what power the examples and conuersatiō of good men haue euerie wise man know's And for examples we see that all the dangers of the sea and warrs that diuing into the bottome of the Ocean and deluing to the center of the earth hanging on ropes and scaffolds and what soeuer man hath inuented in this kinde doe not deterre men where there is ether profit or Admiration Let but one desperate beginner shew the waie and he will not want multitudes of followers so ether vanitie or gaine second his aduentures And if the force of Example be so great the losse of wanting it must needes be equiualent and consequently the wrong done to Christians by taking it awaie must be no lesse And therefore the question and cōtrouersie whether it should be maintened in the church or no is of no smale importance Nephew I perceiue well that you still continue according to your promis to shew the necessitie and importance of controuerted pointes of Religion by shewing their force and efficacitie of producing profitable and aduantageous effects for mankind's attaining and coming to eternall Blisse and I see that this is a verie connaturall and efficacious proofe But I feare all pointes of controuersies cannot be proued that waie For I pray how should anie man shew me §. 10 That the Sacraments of order and Matrimonie the Generalitie of Ceremonies or the opinion of miracles are necessarie VNcle You remember I proposed vnto you but now a diuision of some things which concerned the breeding others the conseruation of vertue and deuotion For although such things as augment vertue doe likewise of necessitie conserue it yet there may be some things which properly are to conserue it and not to augment it or at least of two things which doe both the one may conserue it because it breed's it the other may augment it because it cōserue's it Now therefore if we finde anie thing whose principall effect is only to hinder such contrarieties as would distroye pietie and deuotion such properly speaking doe not augment it of them selues but yet they may be truly said to conserue it Farther if you considere you shall finde that this hindering of cōtrarieties and opposites to vertue is performed two waies First by remouing all such
cōpanie of learned and indifferent men haue doubted of yea vse this for a maxime that such pointes must of necessitie be doubted of as being not with in the reach of euident conuiction Let but I saie these men come to write against Catholikes and you shall haue them pretende whole listes of demonstrations and whole pages will not suffice to recken vp the absurdities which they imagine doe follow out of some one Catholike pointe so necessarie it is that these men contradict them selues who contradict the truth of Christ and his church Nephew Why the Protestants ought to returne to the church of Rome Your argument me thinke's is good against the first beginners of the breach from the Catholike church but will not suffice against mē that nowe liue who seeme to be a framed and setled church and haue receiued this doctrine from their fathers For we see that possession though at the first vnlawfully gotten doth in time preuaille and quarells cease euen where Princes are pretenders If the welch men should now pretende to haue beene vnjustly put out of England by the Saxons The Romans out of France by the french The Greekes out of Italie by the Goths who would thinke their quarells iust So likewise why should the Protestants though their time be not so long nor their possession so quiet rather yeild to the church of Rome then the church of Rome to them or to the church of England for example vnlesse the church of Rome can demonstrate hir positiōs against the Protestāts which I haue not heard anie of our learned mē saie she cā Vncle. Although it be both reasonable in all liklyhood and peraduenture may be cōuinced that who first parted and made the diuision ought in law of good gouerment to returne And although I could likewise pretende that the church of England compared to that church which liueth in communitie with the church of Rome is but a smale part and therefore bound to yeild to the greater for to saie that the Protestāts of England liue in communitie with all other churches but the Roman is manifestly false since all other churches will Anathematize diuers of their tenets and they also the tenets of other churches nor is there anie rule of vnitie and cōmunion amongst them Although I saie I could vrge these and other reasons to this effect yet I will only propose you two The Catholike church cannot come to the Protestants The former shall plainely shew that the Catholike church cānot yeild vnto Protestants without essentially ruining hir self and therefore no possible vnion betwixt the churches vnlesse the Protestants will bend For if the Catholike church doth essentially subsiste and mantaine hir selfe vpon this principle and grounde that she hath receiued hir doctrine frō Iesus Christ by word of mouth and succession from hand to hand which cannot faile put the case she yeilde's to the church of Englād in anie pointe which she holdeth vpō this principle is it not euident that she must of necessitie forgoe hir hold and for sake hir only principle where vpon is built all hir faith and beliefe is it not manifest that she may as well forsake all as anie one pointe which she holdeth vpō this tennor and motiue sure it is But the Protestants holding their doctrine and positions vpon no such tye but only vpon their owne at most probable interpretation of the scripture which they may change vpon better consideration are vpon farr easier termes to yeild and that without preiudice to their Religion or iudgment Because tenets only holdē vpon probabilitie may be changed vpon anie good occasion or new knowne motiue without disparregment to the Authour And certainely what church soeuer doth not thinke hir selfe vnerrable in anie pointe what she holdeth may be false and therefore it were temeritie for such a church to hold anie pointe certainely true And if she hold not anie pointe certainely true why should not the verie reasons of state and interest seeke to haue them changed and setled secure and infalible sithēce humane nature is euer inclined to belieue what 's for hir owne profit The second reason doth proue that the Protestant is bound in nature and by the light of reason to yeild to the Catholike communion For if nature teach vs that a Protestant's practize ought not to contradict his principles and iudgment of his reason And that the necessitie and force of Experience doth conuince most euidētly that there is no Gouerment in a church without prescribing of some tenets and forbidding of others restraining or punishing if neede be such as wil not complie with those prescribed Canōs or articles And that t' is likewise euident that this is contrarie to the libertie of opinion which the Protestāt putte's for his first and cheefe maxime to approue his separation frō the Roman church will it not follow with out contradiction that ether the Protestants must breake with reason and the nature of man in holding libertie in their iudgments and vnderstandings and obliging to obedience in their will and practize Or els they must close with the Catholike church in their iudgments and professe the inerrabilitie of the church at least so farr as obligeth hir subiects not to withstand or oppose but to submitte and obey hir Canons and commādes And for your exāples of politicke states which by possessiō and prescription haue at length obtained right you must remember that all their beginnings and groundes are vpon humane nature and consent of men and therefore by the same law by which they were made they may be likewise altered But the church of God was made by Christ and his Ministers and therefore reasō tell 's vs that hir institution is to be inuiolably cōserued nor ought or can anie prescription of time preuaile against hir Wherefore sithēce that church which the Protestants parted from held an holdeth still that the church of God nether is nor can be but one in all ages and places which position she professeth to haue teceiued in the same manner and vpō the same grounde as she hath receiued the rest of hir doctrine they Protestants must of necessitie first shew that they are the true church of Christ before they can pleade possessiō or prescription For if there can be but one church no prescription can make them that one sithence at their verie begining and euer since an other both was and is in more quiet possession then they and pleade's the same title more strongly Nephew Why then vncle I see there remaineth no other question but whether the Protestants can conuince their positions or noe Which I belieue would be a hard taske Wherefore vncle I thāke you hartily for this good lesson It growe's late I feare I shall hold you vp to long t' is time for you to take your reste Vncle. T' is true nephew they ought in deede to conuince and demonstrate their tenents and I know of no other waie they haue to doe
Apostles had left to all churches the booke it self It is likely therefore that the ould Testament was brought in by the first Christians ' of the CircuÌ„cision who accepted of those bookes which they saw the Apostles honnor and make vse of and from them it came to the Gentill Christians and so by litle and litle was accepted of by all the Christian church with the same veneration that the Apostles and Iewish Christians gaue vnto it But how soeuer shall wee not thinke at least §. 3 That tradition for scripture is more vniuersall then traditioÌ„ for doctrine NEphew Surely vncle for my part I caÌ„not thinke but that the scripture hath a more vniuersall tradition theÌ„ anie point of Christian doctrine or at least then anie of those which are disputed betwixt vs and the Protestants seeing that all Christians doe agree in the acceptation of the scripture and farr fewer in diuers pointes of doctrine For such churches as are in communion with the church of Rome are no such extraordinarie part of christendome if they were compared to all the rest Vncle. For the Extent of the churches I cannot certainely tell you the truth because I feare manie are caled ChristiaÌ„s who haue litle ether in their beliefe or liues to verifie that name But you know in witnesses the qualitie is to be respected as well and more theÌ„ the quantitie So that such couÌ„tries in which Christianitie is vigorous are to be preferred before a greater Extent of such as are where litle remaines more then the name But to come neerer to your difficultie suppose that in a suite in law one side had seuen lawfull witnesses the other had as manie and twentie knights of the post knowne periured knaues or vnlawfull witnesses more would you cast the other side for this wicked rable Nephew No truly for seing the law doth inualidate their testimonie I should wrong the partie to make anie accompt of them and therefore I should judge the parties equall Vncle. Why then you see that who will challenge a more vniuersall Tradition for scripture then for doctrine must first be certaine that there is no lawfull exception against those Christians whom he calleth to witnesse to witt against the Armans NestoriaÌ„s Eutychians and the like Now the Catholike church accounteth these men wicked in the highest degree that is guiltie of Heresie and schisme And therefore the partie which esteemeth of their witnesse must by taking of them for honnest men beare him self for their fellow and account the Roman church wicked and not fitt for testimonie from whom neuerthelesse he hath receiued what soeuer he hath of Christ Besides the witnesse and testimonie which these men giue is only that they receiued scripture from that church which excluded them from communion at their beginnings and euer continued in opposition against them to witt the Catholike Wherefore it is euident that their testimonie addeth nothing to the testimonie of the Catholike church but only declareth what the testifieth nor consequently maketh anie traditioÌ„ more vniuersal Let vs therefore now see whether §. 4 The text of scripture can haue remained incorrupted or no. FOr hitherto we haue only compare the and 〈◊〉 of scripture in itselfe to tradition now we will come a litle closser and compared it as we haue it to the same doctrine deliuered once 〈…〉 tradition I meane that hitherto we haue spoken as if we had those verie bookes which the canonicall writer made with their owne hande and of what authoritie they would be But now we will considere their since we haue but copies of them of what authoritie these copies ought to be Can you resolue this question Nâ—phew I doubt not sir but for that end which wee seeke that is to make a iudge of controuersies euerie word euerie letter and euerie title must be admitted of absolute and vncontrolable certainâ—ie And so I heare the vulgar edition in latine is commaÌ„ded to be held amongst vs. For I easily see that if anie one sentence may be quarrelled euerie one will incurre the same hazard all being equaly deliuered and equaly warranted with reason and authoritie Vncle. You saie verie well for where there is no lesse theÌ„ the soules of the whole world at the stake I see not what aduantage can giue sufficient securitie if there remaine anie notable vncertaintie Our sauiour saith what can all the world auaile anie man if he loose his soule So that where the question is soule or no soule saluation or damnation nothing lesse then certaintie can serue to proceede vpon And therefore no doubt but if the Apostles had intended to leaue the holy writt for the decider of controuersies in Religion they would also haue prouided that infalible copies should haue beene kept and come downe to the church to the end of the world For such care wee see that priuat men haue of conseruing their bargaines and couuenants by making their Indentures vncounterfeitable and enrolling them in publicke offices were they are to remaine vncorrupted the like care hath common wealths to conserue their recordes specially their laws keeping the verie originalls or authenticall copies with verie great care But what neede wee tooke into the examples of â—â—â—en seeing all mightie God in his owne person hath giuen vs a paterne commanding the Deuteronomie to be kept in the Arke which he would haue to be the authenâ—icall copie to iudge betwixt him and his people and this with the greatest veneratioÌ„ that could be imagined or that euer was giuen to anie thing But this was impossible for the Apostles to doe otherwise surely the would haue done it if they had intended that Christs written law should haue beene our iudge by reason of the multitudes of nations and languages which hindered that not anie one booke could be conserued with such securitie and incorruptibilitie as would be requisite in that case both because of the language and of the mutabilitie of the world euer subiect to a thousand accidents whereby such bookes might fall into the hands of those who would not only neglect them but ether willfully corrupt or seeke vtterly to destroy that which was to be the rule and paterne of Christian faith And for that which you saie is commaÌ„ded vs you conceiue amisse For no wise man thinketh that the vulgar edition is so well corrected that much may not be mended How the vulgar edition is to be receiued but t' is that the church hath secured vs that there is nothing against Christian faith or behauiour contained in those bookes which haue so long passed for scripture and are so in deede for the substance of the bookes and therefore hath commanded vs not to refuse this râ—â—â— in anie controuersie on disputation And this wee and wee only caÌ„ doe for the churche's securitie â—â—seth out of this that she hath an other more forcible ground of hir faith to witt tradition by which being assured what the truth is she can confidently pronunce that in
possession of that sense of the scripture which they pretēded to be false and wrōg And surely no man of common sense who is in possessiō and hath the law in his owne hands will yeild it vp without euidence on the cōtrarie part The second rule I desire a Catholike should obserue is not to thinke his cause lost because him self cannot answere the argumēts proposed against him nor to venter his cause and his possession vpon his owne wit For the disputation being in a matter wherein according to the Protestants groundes there is no certaintie it followeth that who hath the better wit or is more practized in this matter may bring an argumēt a good scholler cannot solue at the first sight though afterwards ether he or some other may And what a follie were it for a man to venture his soule and conscience vpon a subtilitie or present flash of wit whereof peraduenture within an hower hee him selfe will see the falsitie and condemne his owne errour Wherefore a Catholike is not to venter the cause vpon his owne head nor to confesse it weake because he cannot defende it for both may he improue him selfe and some others perhapps may goe farr beyōd him The third rule is that the Catholike should neuer vndertake to conuince his Aduersarie out of scripture but content him self that these words may well beare this sense which is in fauour of the Catholike church And this is both more easie to performe and sufficient for his pourpose For the Catholike hath an assured grounde of his faith besides scripture and which relyeth not vpon it nay he holdeth that his Religion cannot be wholy conuinced out of scripture to what end therefore vnlesse he would show his wit should he vndertake to proue his tenents by scripture For this were to strenghen his opponent in his owne grounde and principle to wit that all is to be proued out of scripture Nephew You would binde Protestants to verie vnequall conditions if you will oblige them to conuince and the Catholike not nay that it shal be sufficient for the Catholike to shew this may be the meaning of this or that place of scripture whereas the Protestant shal be forced to proue cleerely and euidently that this is the verie sense of the text Vncle. Not I cozen but the Protestants them selues oblige thē selues to this hard measure for if a man should strongly mātaine that a Beetle were the best instrument to cut withall and you saie no were no he bound to cut with a Beetle and it were no sense to saie that you should be forced to doe it since you mantaine it to be impossible So they who hold that the scripture is the true iudge of controuersies and fit and able to decide all quarells and dissensions about the Christian faith and law binde them selues by holding this to conuince their positions by scripture which cānot be exacted at his hands Who saith scripture was not made for this end nor is sufficient for it And looke vpon Luther and the Heretikes of his timē nay vpon the Puritants of our days and see if they doe not all mātaine that they can conuince their tenēts by scripture and saie that our forefathers were wholy ignorant of scripture and that wee now liuing knowe nothing of it But to goe on with our rules of disputing out of scripture The fourth condition shall bee that the Catholike doe not admitte anie negatiue proofes as to saie this is an errour because you can shew no scripture for it For this is no proofe vnlesse they will suppose that nothing is true but scripture or that there is nothing to bee donne but what is ordained by scripture which were absurd for nether Catholike nor I thinke anie good Protestant will admitte of that supposition being it were not only to take away the power of the church but euen nature from nature for nature teacheth vs to helpe our selues where scripture doth not contradict and as a Puritant seeketh a pulpit or high place to preach in without looking whether he haue a warrant for it in the scripture to command him so rationall and sensible men doe seeke a particular habit for a preacher or Clergie man whereby he may be more decent and comely and his words and exhortations be receiued with more respect and authoritie and this without anie cōmande of the scripture which where it commandeth it maketh the thing cōmanded to be necessarie where it is silent there it maketh nothing vnlawfull Nephew If the Protestants were to disput vpon these conditions they would keepe of I warrant you Yet this I must tell you that it were a great satisfaction for indifferent men that haue beene brought vp in this verball and apparent respect of the scripture to see that the positions you would induce them vnto can bee and are maintened by scripture and that they are grounded therein This perhapps you can doe by shewing mee some other waie of dealing with thē and whether there be not §. 15 An other manner of disputing out of scripture VNcle For their sakes cozen I will tell you of an other sort of disputation wherein the Protestant shall haue no other disaduantage but of his cause For I thinke that the Catholike cause may not only be maintened by scripture but also that it hath the better stāding precisely to scripture alone I confesse this kinde of disputation is not fit for manie Auditors but only for moderate and vnderstanding men And it is to make this the question Whether partie is more probable if only scripture were to bee alleadged This Question requireth diuers suppositions where vpon both sides are to be agreed which I feare will bee some what hard As what texts are to preuaille what cōmentaries or explicatiōs shall be allowed of what is a proper and an improper speeche amongst improper speeches which must be preferred what copies of euerie text shal be held for good what coniectures shall be accounted null against the naturall sense And manie other such positions which would not be easily resolued This donne let both sides bring their places for the pointe in question and so the disputatiō will only be of the qualificatiō of the places that is to shew whether are more apparēt and likely of the two And for this I see lekewise that so manie logicall principles are first to bee resolued which partly are found as yet amongst the critickes disputations as that all the Logickes hitherto inuented would not afford sufficiēt light and instruction to make an euident conclusion whether side were more apparent in words and Tetxs And therefore you may ghesse how farr these disputations out of scripture are frō clearing doubts what litle good cometh of them vnlesse they bee well gouerned And how for the most part the best credit or the best tongue carrieth awaie the day by the Auditor's preiudicat opinion or weaknesse In a word the scripture being not written for this end to wit for the
decision of controuersies it is not to bee expected that it should bee of it selfe without the churche's authoritie much profitable for that pourpose but to informe our liues by an ordinarie reading of it or by preaching singing and such like vses things recommended in the verie letter it self whereas wee are neuer seÌ„t to the word for the deciding of controuersies And now I hope you are fully satisfied Nephew I am so in deede and giue you manie thankes for I see that how few pointes soeuer the Protestants pretende to be necessarie yet caÌ„ there not anie thing be conuinced out of bare words inuoluing soe manie vncertainties as you haue tould me of Vncle. It is to litle pourpose for them to saie that some few substaÌ„tiall and necessarie pointes may bee proued out of scripture it were fitter they would first proue that the scripture is an instrument made to determine controuersies or anie other of those principles which I shewd you must of necessitie be true if scripture bee our rule But this they can neuer proue And therefore they seeke first to withdraw vs from a secure and naturall meanes of relying vpon our forefathers Which neuerthelesse in all ciuill and oeconomicall conuersation they them selues can not liue without and then to leaue vs to a labyrinth of voluntary and vnendable disputations Reflect then I pray cozen vpon what wee haue said and compare our yesternight's and this our morning's discourse together considering first how manie things are of necessitie to bee conserued in the church for the preseruation of faith and good life in hir subiects Then see how manie pointes haue beene and are quarelled and if anie haue escaped how all the rest may be caled in question with as much probabilitie and apparence as these are Then looke vpon the qualities of that Decider of controuersies where vnto all the Aduersaries of the Catholike church doe seeke to draw vs by which there can be no other end of controuersies but to leaue euerie man to his owne will And then conclude that these positions being put there will nether remaine gouerment in the church nor certaintie or constancie in beliefe nor anie thing to be taught and practized worthie God Allmightie's sending of a lawgiuer muchlesse of sending his owne sonne vpon those hard conditioÌ„s which wee appreheÌ„de of Iesus Christ and reade in the Ghospell Nephew It is verie true but if your leaue mee thus I shall bee like him who had fargot his Pater noster but not learned his Our father For you haue taught mee what I cannot rely vpon but not what I ought to rely vpon And there is so much said against the authoritie of the church by all hir Aduersaries that a man who hath beene euer beaten to those obiections cannot easily leaue them without some scrupule Vncle. You are in the right the most necessarie part is yet behinde for a litle building is better then a great deale of pulling downe Therefore when your leisure serueth you I will bee readie to giue you satisfaction to the best of my power But now this morning is too farr spent to beginne so large a discourse as that question doth require Take an other time and the sooner the more welcome But for the present God be with you I haue some prayers to save THE THIRD DIALOGVE By what meanes Controuersies in Religion may be ended This Dialogue containeth 15. parts or paragraphes 1. THe Preface or Introduction 2. What force the arguments of Protestants against Catholikes ought to haue 3. That standing in likelyhood the Catholike partie is greater more learned and more vertuous 4. Of what efficacitie is this argumeÌ„t 5. That it is no hard matter that Christ's law should haue desceÌ„ded entire vnto vs. 6. That if Christ's law could haue beene conserued it hath beene conserued 7. That no great errour could creepe in to the church of God 8. That the truth of the Catholike doctrine hath continued in the church 9. That the dissention of Catholike Doctours coÌ„cerning the rule of faith doth not hurt the certaintie of tradition 10. That the teaching of Christian doctrine without determining what of necessitie is to be belieued and what not hurte's not the progresse of tradition 11. That no errour can passe vniuersally through the church of God 12. That these precedente discourses beare an absolute certaintie 13. Some obiections are solued 14. The Examples of traditions which seeme to haue failed are examined 15. The conclusion of the whole discourse §. 1 The Introduction NEPHEW I am come vncle to challenge you of your promise for I cannot be quiet vntill you haue setled me in this so weightie a matter If the pointes which are in coÌ„trouersie be as you saie and as you haue clearly shewd me of great consequence and that by scripture we cannot decide them against contentious meÌ„ I see that ether wee must seeke some other meanes or els all Religion wil bee confounded and the truth of Christ's law vnknowne and neglected Wherefore I pray if you can giue mee a strong resolution in this point Vncle. Why nephew if this feruour continue you will not neede be a scholler but for a yeare aÌ„d a day I pray you coÌ„sidere it is a faire daie and you neuer want imployment for the afternoones when the wether 's faire if I should staie you now you would perhapps so repent it that I should not I feare see you againe this month be not so greedie as to take a surfeite Nephew I feare my owne inconstancie and therefore I pray refuse me not discontinuance may breede coaldnesse specially if what you haue alreadie taught me should bee sullyed with worse thoughts and then I should not be so capable of your instructions as I hope I am at this present Which I haue good reason to make great esteeme of Vncle. Well if you will haue it so you must giue me leaue to trench vpon a good part of your Afternoone for I may bee long in this point and I would be loath to breake of in the midle Yet I will bee as short as possibly I can Tell me then had Iesus Christ euer a church or no And I would haue you answere me what you thinke a iudicious Protestant would saie to the same demande Nephew I doubt not but anie Protestant of them all would answere you that at least in the Apostles time Christ had a visible church coÌ„sisting of the faithfull which adhered to the Apostles and such Bishopps as were made by them but that since that time it is fallen into great errours and ether mainely Apostated from the true doctrine of Christ or at least â—o deformed it that a reformation was necessarie euen in pointes of beliefe And this reforme their forefathers vndertooke Vncle. You are likewise persuaded I suppose cozen by the same euidence that in the Apostles time this church was a communion with the particular church of Rome and therefore I will goe a litle further and aske you
call Poperie And truly in his Dialogues which are sett out in English there 's more then enough to show that the Religion of his time was the same which we now professe And we that haue our cōuersion from him according to venerable Bede wee I saie who are descended from the Saxons neuer haue had anie Religiō but that which the Protestants call Poperie And therefore to vs English men it is most cleere that we neuer had anie Religiō since Gregorie the great 's time but Poperie And therefore if the Religion that then raigned was the faith of the Apostles it will euidently follow that Poperie was their faith Vncle. Surely not only writers but euen Records and Monuments are so thicke since the conuersion of those nations which ouer runne the Romā world that no peruerse man cā requite more euidēce And surely it was God's prouidence who setled as it were a new world and purged the old whilest Religion could yet looke backe and see hir head as it were with one vewe But I hoped you would haue induced a farther consequence and applyed the argument to later ages Nephew I am affraid these calculations may ouer reach me for I fee the father and the sonne 's age doe concurre in some part and therefore by counting them seuerally the number of yeares will be greater then in deede ought to be allowed Vncle. You saie well and therefore we will only take that number of yeares which the father ordinarily liueth before the birth of his sonne As if the sonne be supposed to be 20. yeares of age when the father testifieth and the father 60. Which you see is verie cōmon and so the number of yeares of one descent will be 40. Which is the number we put But if the father be 80. when the sonne is 20. then the number of one descent wil be 60. Which though it be some what great because it is rare that a man hath a child at 60. yet t' is not so rare but a thousand may bee found in a competent extent as in the Kingdome of England and this number is amply sufficient for the effect we desire for fiue descents of 60. yeares make 300. yeares And hauing tould you how a generall practize of anie countrie is knowne by a kind of self seeing for fiue descents which include's at least 200. yeares it will follow that coūting downe frō Christ time to ours by two ages at a time we may frame our discourse thus As those who liued in the beginning of the third age could certainely know they held the Apostles doctrine so those who liued in the beginning of the fift age could certainely know they held the doctrine of those of the beginning of the third age that is the doctrine of the Apostles And by the like cōsequēce those of the 7. age will be certaine they are in the same faith of those of the fift and those of the 9. in the faith of those of the 7. And so to our verie selues And all are certaine that they are in the faith of the Apostles The reason of this consequence is because two ages is not so great a space but that certaine knowledge of publicke and generall chāges through a kingdome much more through manie may be easily had nor yet are two ages so litle as that a great errour could lurke vnseene and lye smoothered for so long a time We therefore who now liue in communion with the Roman church know certainely that our forefathers of the 16. and 15 ages did conceiue that this faith and doctrine which we hold did I saie conceiue and thinke it to haue descended vnto them from the Apostles And we know likewise that they could not conceiue and thinke so but that they knew the 14. and 13. ages did belieue the same Nor those of the 14. and 13. ages could not haue the same beliefe vnlesse they had seene and receiued it in and from the 12. and the 11. age And putting all these together the certaintie whereof is immediatly founded in this our age you see they comprehēde six ages if we put 40. yeares to a descent and will comprehende 8. or 9. ages if we put 60. to a descent So that two or at must three such cōpositiōs will reach beyond Christ's birth And therefore we doe not nor cannot want euidence but eyes to see it Nephew Your discourse will be good supposing the pointe in cōtrouersie be some publicke and great matter or a notorious change in the face of God's church But why might not some speculatiue pointe creepe in without being taken notice of such as was the pointe of the Arrians or Pelagians if there had not happened with all so great an opposition and quarelling as shaked almost the whole church why no neW point cā creepe into the church without a great change Vncle. There be two reasons why no pointe of Christian doctrine can be so smale as to creepe in without a great change The one is because Christian doctrine is a discipline whose parts are so knit together as that one thred cānot be broken but it will rauell through manie stiches As frō th' Arriā heresie denying Christ to be God it would follow no Trinitie and so Christians would easily become naturall philosophers and Pagans no Incarnation that is no God and man in one person All the payeres and adorations which the church had vsed hitherto were to be changed The forme of baptisme were to be altered And thus we might goe through the most part of Christian doctrine if we looke into the sequels of Arrianisme And such like consequences may be deduced out of Pelagianisme and out of almost all othet heresies which haue not runne beyōd all face of Christianitie because they were quickly opposed and so hindered from shewing the serpent's taile which lurked behinde The other reason is because no new doctrine can preuaile in the church of God without impeaching tradition the rule of faith for that being once broken and reiected by the same right and principle by which they professe one errour they may professe anie And you see the disciples of Heresiarckes neuer faile to grow worse thē their Masters Luther broke the Ice by appealing to scripture Suinglius went farther then he th' Anabaptists exceeded the Swinglians the Adamistes passed th' Anabaptists the Socinians the Adamistes and some went beyond Christianitie others euen beyond common sense wherefore it is impossible anie breach should be made in the church without a maine and notorious chāge in the whole face of Christianitie Nephew I see now vncle it was not without cause you asked me what time the Apostles imployed in teaching Christiā doctrine to some one Prouince or Countrie your whole discourse seeme's to depende vpō this that the Apostles did not barely tell the faithfull what Christ had donne and taught bud did inculcate and beat it into thē both by words and actions invring thē to the practize of their beliefe their
certainely knowne hitherto nor euer expressy belieued before Which how they may be reconciled amongst them selues or stand with this that tradition is our rule of faith I confesse I know not Vncle. Truly cozen your obiection is strong yet I hope to content you For the first part of it I see no great matter in the varietie of opinions amongst our Deuines for you see they seeke out the Decider of pointes of doctrine that is by whose mouth we are to know vpon occasions of dispute what and which be our pointes and articles of faith to wit whether the Pope or the Councell or both Which is not much materiall to our pourpose what euer the truth be supposing we acknowledge no articles of faith but such as haue descended vnto vs by tradition from Christ and his Apostles The second part of your obiection seeme's to be of greater force because some Deuines seeme to acknowledge an authoritie in the church which hath power not only to determine ether speculatiue or practicall points of doctrine new or ould in such manner as that the whole church is obliged to accepte or not oppose it's definition which euerie Catholike grante's and the reasons I tould you in our first conference doe euidently conuince But also that this authoritie can so determine euen a speculatiue pointe of doctrine which hitherto was euer vncertaine nor euer acknowledge as reueiled or esteemed as an article of faith that here after the vhole church shal be obliged to receiue acknowledge and belieue it as a reuealed and necessarie point of Christian doctrine and as an article of faith Which opinion you must knowe is but an opinion nor doe the authours of it oblige anie man to belieue it as certaine nor doe they condemne those who nether doe nor euer will acknowledge anie such positiō ād therefore this ought not to trouble you Nay contrariwise all Deuines will generally tell you that no new articles of faith can be made that there 's now no reuelations for new points of doctrine and that Christ Iesus was our only law maker in this kinde hauing suggested to his Apostles all that is necessarie of this nature and qualitie and the Apostles likewise taught their churches all that was necessarie to be knowne of this degree Wherefore you see all agree vpon tradition nor anie one ether denie it or doubt of it Whereas it appeare's by the diuersitie of their opinions that they doe not vniuersally and generally agree in anie other meanes or rule of faith though some admitte of another in waie of opinion Yet to giue you farther satisfaction in this busines I will teach you a point of philosophie which perhapps you neuer fully vnderstood I am sure you will not denie but t' is a differēt questiō to aske how an herbe or tree growe's and to aske how Aristole or Theophrastus saies it growe's for in the same growing there can be no varietie but in their opiniōs there may So in man t' is a differēt thing what he doth or is done in him and what he thinkes he doth or is done in him as in sicknesse disgestion and other naturall workes t' is euident yea and in voluntary actions too Which depende of corporall instruments as to goe runne turne our eyes speake cough spit or the like which we doe freely and voluntarily yet were we examined by what instruments and motiōs we doe thē peraduēture who seeme's to know most would be found short at least amongst manie there would be diuers opinions But doe you thinke the same happen's in our thoughts and iudgmēts which be purely spirituall Nephew I cannot tell yet me thinke's the soule should be so wel acquainted with hir owne actiōs as that she should not neede anie helpe to know them And all men agree that only man vpon earth can see his owne minde and therefore if it be not cleere to man what himself thinke's nothing is cleere Vncle. You are deceiued cosen for as long as we are in this world we cannot know anie thing of our owne thoughts and affections but as we reflect vpon the corporall motions which accompanie them and which because none feele but our selues none can knowe bur our selues though sometimes it happene's quite contrarie when these motiōs breake forth into outward apparence for thē others discrye our mindes and we our selues through the violēce of passiō are not so wel able ro iudge of them as others who see vs. But to speake of men free from passion and who vse to reflect much vpon their owne thoughts euen in them their internall actions proceede frō a principle directed by a superior guide then their owne reason as appeare's by this that they know nothing of their owne thoughts but by reflection and the reflection is a distinct act from the former vpon which the reflectiō is made so that nether the reflectiō it self is alwaise made by voluntarie designe nor anie act which is made without reflection Besides considere I pray how few know by what verue their vnderstandings are made certaine of those principles and positiōs which they cannot doubt of or by what vertue they adhere so strongly to the conclusion of a sylogisme not one of a thousand who doe these things euerie day Wherefore t' is euidēt that euen in our spirituall actions not all that we doe is done by our proper vnderstāding that is with knowing reflection and designe and therefore the same man may euē in these intellectuall acts doe one thing and thinke he doth an other and diuers men may agree in what they doe and yet disagree in their opinions of what it is they doe And now to close with your difficultie seeing faith is a persuasion or an agreeing in some points by reason af authoritie All the Doctors of the Catholike church may agree in beleeuing that is in acting and practizing their faith in the same manner and yet be deuided in their speculations by which they seeke to determine what it is they doe And it is their doeings which make's them Christians and not their sayings for they liue and beleeue as Christians but speake and deliuer their opinions as Doctors which be qualities farr different from being a Christian And doe you not see that these Doctors belieue after their speculations and framing of their opinions as they did before they thought of or studied this difficultie Nephew I doe not doubt but they doe for the faith of all Christians must needes be the same and consequently all must goe vpon the same motiue though one may vnderstand better and apprehende deeper that motiue then an other doth Vncle. You saie well Considere then that when these Doctors were yong men and had not yet studied Diuinitie and you shall finde that they had no other motiue of their belife but the authoritie of the present church and therefore how soeuer they discourse learnedly in their bookes the conclusion must be in their liues to rest vpon the authoritie of the
present church as before they did Nephew Nay if you goe that waie to worke I feare you will fall short of your intent For the child belieue's father and mother the parishoner his Pastor without reflection of the present church T' is like therefore these Deuines rely vpoÌ„ the motiues which they mantaine what soeuer they did when they were yong Vncle. Not so nether for as the water of the new riuer which is brought to London come's to a particular house by a smale pipe yet t' is continuate to the whole bodie of the riuer so the instruction of faith though it come to a child by his parents and to a parishoner by his Pastor yet the dependence of the doctrine is from the whole church whose members and instruments these parents and Pastors are if they be in the church to which you know I tould you what is required And t' is the like when parents teach their children what is to be done or auoided according to the lawes of the couÌ„try for though the father speake yet t' is the common wealth which preuaileth and bindeth Nephew At least me thinke's vncle such great Doctors should not be ignorant of a point agreed vpon by the whole church and therefore since they disagree about the motiue of faith I doe not see how you can saie t' is generally agreed on in the Catholike church Vncle. Had this agreemeÌ„t beene made in a Generall Councell or in some vniuersall meeting of faithfull ChristiaÌ„s and so recorded I doubt not but these learned Clarkes would haue knowne it but it was not so agreed on Yet as by the vniuersall blessing of crescite multiplicamini Gen. 1. all men and beasts agreed vpon feeding and filling the world euerie one in his kinde by the directioÌ„ of their maker knocking at their stomackes when they were hungrie and at their pharisie when they were full to set on worke those instruments by which the se coÌ„mands of Almightie God were to be fullfilled Marc 16 Euen so by the like blessing of Euntes in mundam vniuersum praedicate omni creaturae the Apostles being dispersed into all natioÌ„s by the vertue of doeing miracles found credulitie or rather forced faith out of the flintie harts of the corrupted world and hauing setled Christs doctrine dying left in their successors soules and mindes this agreement To belieue what was deliuered from them and to trust those who had heard them speake and afterwards to trust those who had heard it from them who had their instruction from the Apostles and lastly to trust the publike consent which affirmed that they held their faith by entaile from them though manie ages after This agreement being written in harts and not in bookes t' is easie for learned men who seeke their learning in bookes and not in harts to mistake As in Philosophie whilest great Clarkes seeke nature not in it self but in other men's sayings they are deuided and few in the right the truth being but one Nephew You haue beene as good as you word For I see it importe's not that our Deuines be of different opinions in this point so that in their liues and practize they agree And truly I neuer heard of anie Catholike that ether doubted but that Christian doctrine was descended by Tradition or thought that what was so descended could be false nay I thinke euerie moderate and wise Protestant will make no question of that which he conceiues to haue descended from the Apostles by succession For Catholikes wee all rely vpon the censure of the present church nor can or â—are anie man appeale froÌ„ it and call him self a Catholike for we all account them infidels and publicans who are refractorie to this tenet Wherfore t' is euident that what soeuer the church speake's and deliuer's for Tradition is agreed vpon by all Catholikes to be certaine and vnrefusable and sithence all other motiues or rules of faith are not vniuersally receiued t' is euident likewise that this is the rule which can oblige vs to certaintiem matters of beliefe But I haue an other great difficultie to wit that I see our Catechists and preachers wheÌ„ they teach vs Christian doctrine tell vs this you are to belieue this you are to practize without expressing the differences which are betwixt the points of doctrine whereof perhapps some are but only the answeres of learned men some definitioÌ„s of the church and some matters of traditioÌ„ And the like I belieue of former ages Christian doctrine descending vnto vs in a heape or confusion and therefore t is hard to distinguish what is of Tradition what the generall consent of the church and what only learned men's opinions Why then may not some position of this last rancke passe for a tradition by the adoption of some ages in which it will be forgotten that euer it had it's beginning froÌ„ the wit and industrie of priuate men And to satisfie me in this point you must let me see how that The teaching of Christian doctrine without determining what is of necessitie to be belieued what not hurte's not the progresse of tradition VNcle If I should answere you that former ages haue beene more exact in distinguishing things certaine from vncertaine it would not be without ground as you may see by the framing of antient creedes aÌ„d other professions of faith as occasions required but this were to send you to antiquitie whereas in this discourse you know we both desire that common sense and reason without farther enquiry should be our iudge Wherefore the point you speake of which you feare might deceiue vs by the likenesse of tradition is ether true or false if true then I pray what incoÌ„uenience is there if it surprise vs in the qualitie of it's certaintie Nephew This I feare and thinke that it would breake the rule and certaintie of Tradition Where vpon relye's the whole building and frame of our faith according to your discourse For if once truth not deliuered by traditioÌ„ may passe for so deliuered what securitie can we haue that a falsitie may not likewise passe in the same maÌ„ner and so bring an errour amongst vs Vncle. I put you only that part of the question if the point were true which you draw into the contrarie if it were false wherefore if it doe not follow that an vntruth can deceiue vs in that kinde then there is no incoÌ„uenieÌ„ce in the consequeÌ„ce of the former part to wit that truth may be taken as deliuered by traditioÌ„ which truly is not so deliuered And the reason is cleare for seeing the truths of ReligioÌ„ are knowne for the framing of our liues conformably vnto them it importe's litle in respect of vertue vpon what grounds they are held in particular so they be vniuersally and coÌ„stantly held for an action done in consequence of such belieued truths is neuer the worse for the qualitie of the certaintie of it's obiect Yet for your farther satisfaction this I will adde
shyne day to fit on And one should tell you that in the next sessions following they would decree it had beene a verie fowle day aÌ„d would commande vnder paine of death euerie man to belieue and professe foe Which though I thinke you will saie it were impossible they should make anie such decree yet would I know how you would goe about to proue it Would your not considere what force of feares of hopes were necessarie to induce one of these men to tell such a notorious lye whereby he were to hazard his conscience and reputation for euer and then increase and augment the difficultie by the multitude And farther would you not vrge that there were no such hopes or feares as were able to quell anie one or at least a were necessarie to ouerswaye them all considering that the same hopes or feares could not falle vpon such varietie of estates and humours as all these men were of And knowing certainely anie of these three you would assuredly pronunce the supposed assertion to be false For saie you such a force is necessarie to breake reason in this Congregation but such a force at this present cannot be had and therefore reason at this present cannot be broken in them In which discourse a Mathematician will tell you his demonstrations hang vpoÌ„ the verie same gimalls Wherefore as men cannot ordinarily demonstrate that one bodie cannot bee in two places nor two in one yet are we certaine there is a naturall demoÌ„stration for it and we are by nature assured of it So no doubt but there is a demonstration to him that liueth in London that there is a LondoÌ„ bridge and he is naturally certaine of it though he cannot frame the demonstration by articles and sylogismes as a true philosopher can doe for surely a philosopher if he will take paines may finde a demonstration for both Nephew I hartily thaÌ„ke you for this discourse both for the present subiect wherein you haue contented me beyond my expection as also because me thinke's I conceiue by it that there may be certaine knowledge not only in mathematikes but in all other sciences sithence there is so cleere and efficacious meanes of proceeding euen in morall matters which seeme the most mutable aÌ„d vncertaine of all and where I thought scarcely anie reason was to be expected Vncle. O! coseÌ„ though he was a great man that said Ars longa vita breuis yet he must giue me leaue to be his interpreter for t' is not the length of art but our not taking the right waie which make's it long otherwise art would be but a conuenient solace to our liues Would you thinke that a priuat man following the warres without helpe of others writings by his owne industrie should surpasse the greatest clarkes that haue pored double his time vpon bookes and Monsieur des Cartes this our age hath shewed in a french gentleman yet not only liuing but yong Nephew Me thinke's vncle it were a good worke and necessarie for the Christian world if your self or some other would take the paines to set downe the principles of our faith in forme of demonstration For that I conceiue would take awaie all controuersies and make all ChristiaÌ„s of one beliefe and Religion Vncle. You are a yong maÌ„ and conceiue's not the daiâ—tinesse of the pallates of this age they would not taste such rugged and bitter stuffe nay they caÌ„not disgest anie thing which is not sugered with quaint and pleasont iests Who would reade such a worke Who would haue the patience to studie it to comprehend it and make it his owne This verie discourse which hath passed betwixt you and me is so thornie and full of so manie chained consequences that were it publike few would carrie it away Let vs therefore coÌ„tent our selues to make it knowne to our owne acquaintance to whom vpon occasioÌ„ you may deliuer it by the waie of familiar discourse wherein peraduenture it will sauour better and profit more Nephew I pray leaue me not thus giue me at least some speciall light to answere such obiections as without doubt will be proposed when I shall deliuer your discourse to those who are better red then my self Wherefore least I should disgrace your learned lessons I pray tell me how §. 13 Some cheefe and short obiections may be solued VNcle I can not giue you a better rule theÌ„ to sticke to the churche's authoritie for Tradition and not to be easily beaten of by great names and words for if you considere that a Tradition or a point of faith deliuered by tradition is a point vniuersally preached and deliuered by the Apostles and imprinted in the harts of the Christian world And by an vniuersall beliefe and practise continued vnto our days whereof our warrant is no other then that we finde the present church in quiet possession of it and whereof no begining is knowne if this I saie you considere and sticke well to this appreheÌ„sioÌ„ you neede not feare anie obiection which can be made against you For you rely vpon the testimonie of the whole ChristiaÌ„ church you rely vpon the force of nature borne to continue froÌ„ father to child you rely vpon the promises of Iesus Christ of continuing his church vnto the end of the world And vpon the efficacitie of the Holy Ghost sent to performe it by whom Christ's law was written in Christians harts and so to be continued to the day of doome So that you see no human authoritie by which our Estates and liues are gouerned No proofes of courts or law which neuerthelesse are admitted as Iuges of those affaires which too manie God knowe's esteeme more weightie and important then Religion No consent of historie And in fine if what we haue said be true no demonstration better nor greater nor peraduenture equall On the other side you shall finde all obiectioÌ„s fall of their owne weaknesse As some doe obiect the Millenarie errour for a tradition whereof there is no certaintie nor consent of those who write of it whether it haue beene publickly preached by the Apostles or no And euen thence it is excluded from the nature of such tradition as we rely vpon Others finding diuers fathers agreeing in one opinion vrge them presently for or against tradition As if fathers in their dayes were not priuat Doctors and might not be mistaken in some points as well as the Doctors of the present church T' is true we reuerence the fathers in manie titles aboue anie liuing Doctors yet euerie Catholike knowe's that diuers fathers haue some times light into the same error Wherefore you must note cosen that the fathers speake some times as witneses of what the church held in their days and some times as Doctors and so t' is often hard to distinguish how they deliuer their opinions because some times they presse scripture or raison as Doctors and some times to confirme a knowne truth So that who seeke's Tradition in the fathers and
to conuince it by their testimonie take's a hard taske vpon him if he goe rigorously to worke and haue a conning Criticke to his Aduersarie How so euer t' is not a thing fitting for ordinarie and vnlearned people but only for such as haue time at will and great reading and vnderstanding Nephew You haue manie Aduersaries in this opinion for generally men seeke tradition out of the fathers and thinke they haue found it when in euerie age they finde seuerall fathers of the same opinion Vncle. I intende not to detract from their labours who haue taken paines in this kinde for they are profitable and necessarie for the church of God and excellent testimonies of Tradition but I nether thinke it to be the bodie of Tradition but only an effect and consequent of it nor that the multitude of Christians whose faith is to be regulated by Tradition neede to haue recourse to those learned workes Wherefore although diuers fathers in the same or different ages be found to contradict some point whereof the present church is in quiet and immemorable possession their authorities ought not to preuaile nor are they sufficiēt to proue there was not euen in their days a contrarie Tradion For our faith being in some sort naturally grafted in the harts of Christians learned men may now and then mistake some points of it as well as the causes and effects of their owne nature it self according as I tould you but now And as in other points so euen in this to wit in the resolution of faith wherein as our Doctors seeme to differ now a days so might the fathers also And in particular S. Cypriā seeme's to thinke that the resolution of faith was to be made into scripture and not into Tradition though in deede he opposed not scripture to Tradition but to custome wich is a farr different thing the one relying vpon the doctrine of the Apostles the other vpon the authoritie of priuat Doctors And supposing he was mistaken it were no more thē what wee now see to consiste with the vnitie of the Church There is one obiection and but only one of moment and t' is that S. Augustin and Innocentius with their Councells held that the communion of Children Was necessarie for their saluatiō and their words seeme to be apparent But who looketh into other passages of the same Authors will finde that their words are metaphoricall and that their meaning is that the effect of sacramentall Communion to witt an incorporation into Christ's misticall bodie which is done by Baptisme is of necessitie for Children's saluation I remember not at this present anie other obiection of monent which may not be easily solued out of these principles Nephew I will suggest you one or two if you please The one of Communion vnder both kindes wherein our Aduersaries saie we leaue a knowne and practised tradition for manie ages The other concerning the bookes of scripture where they saie we accept of a new scripture or rule of faith without tradition Vncle. I did thinke cosen you could answere these your selfe For the first there is two parts of it The one that the B. Sacrament was giuen vnder both kindes ordinarily the other that some times it was giuen in one kynd only And Catholikes being in possessiō of both parts by tradition those that will proue that Catholikes goe against Tradition must proue that it was neuer administred vnder one kinde only which our Aduersaries nether goe about nor cā performe but ply only that part which is granted them to witt that ordinarily it was administred vnder both kindes For the second t' is not sufficient to shew that some haue doubted of this or that part of the Canon vnlesse they can proue that those who did not doubt were not a sufficient partie to make a Tradition frō the Apostles time And so you see it fall's into the question we mentioned before that some fathers or Doctors being of a contrarie minde breake not the force of tradition Nephew I am loath to leaue you vncle because me thinke's I am not sufficiently armed to answere all obiections And yet what soeuer I call to minde falle's into some of these conditions you require Vncle. Let me see how skillfull you are I will try how you can answere me to §. 14 The examples of Tradition which seeme to haue failed FIrst therefore betwixt Adā's being cast out of Paradise and the Deluge there are accoūted about two thousand yeares which according to the long liues men enioyed at that time made not fully three descēts and yet in Noy's time the forgetting of God's law was so great that a generall floud was necessarie for the clēsing of the world Sem was Noy's sonne and before his death both the Diuisions of Nations happened because of their pride against God And as most Historians thinke the selecting of Abram's familie into God's seruice the rest of the world hauing abādoned it Likewise what is become of all antien Religions the most part of them deliuered by Tradition they are all gone and rooted out So that plaine experience is against those fine discourses you approued so higly What answere would you make to this Nephew Marry I would deny it to be true I meane I would saie that God's law was not forgotten but neglected before the floud And the like at the building of Babell And for Abraham's time we know that Abimelech and Pharao and Melchisedech and others as Iob when soeuer he liued obserued God's law As for heathen Religions they were written in bookes for anie thing I know and therefore preiudice tradition no more then a written law and consequently belong not to this cōtrouersie And thus I thinke I should quitte my self wel enough Vncle. Soone enough at least but let vs see if it be with as good speede as much haste For suppose they should reply that the neglect of God's law must of necessitie breede obliuion and therefore that ether God's law was forgottē or shortly would haue beene if the punishement of the Deluge had not preuēted it And for the men you cite of Abraham's time they were but few and though in that time God's law had yet some litle force looke but into Mose's time and you shall see all ouerrūne with Idolatrie For Heathen Religions t' is said of the Druides that their Ceremonies were not written but deliuered by memorie in verse from the Elder to the yonger and so conserued And the Histories of the welch ād Irish seeme to haue beene conserued in the like manner by the Bardes which how full of fables they were euerie man knowe's So that these things seeme sufficient to discredit Tradition Nephew I must intreat your helping hand to fasten me vpō this shaking flore otherwise I perceiue I am to weake to stand of my self Vncle. T' is not the flore you stand vpon but the want of confidence which make's you so vnsteadfast For tell me I pray if you remember whereon rely's
in iudging white froÌ„ blacke because for sooth some weake eyes are now aÌ„d theÌ„ mistaken or as to saie no bodie can walke because some haue the palsey which were in deede to destroye nature and it's constancie in vniuersalls because of it's defectibilitie in it's particulars which is against common sense and reason Vncle. Well then doe you thinke their immediate forefathers could teach theÌ„ anie thing as of this qualitie but what themselues belieued and had receiued in the same manner Nephew No surely their immediate forefathers could not deliuer anie thing as of this nature to their successors against the doctrine which they had receiued from their predecessours euer standing in this principle that nothing is to be belieued as of necessitie in this degree but what came by hand to hand froÌ„ Christ or his Apostles Vncle. Tell me then I pray whether in the two last pointes that is whether ether we can be deceiued in what was deliuered by our immediate forefathers vnto vs as of this kinde or they deliuer vs anie doctrine as of this qualitie but what them selues receiued in the like sort whether I saie in ether of these two points there be anie differeÌ„ce betwixt anie former age and this our presentage or that what you haue granted of this age the same must not necessarily hold in all other ages euer since Christ Nephew I confesse I see noe difference Vncle. Reflect then vpon what you haue granted and considere whether anie error against a receiued doctrine aÌ„d practize of this nature could so creepe in as that there shoud be no determinate age of it's beginning in which it first tooke roote and flourished Nephew T' is not possible that anie thing should beginne and yet beginne in no time For I conceiue that an age is no smale time aÌ„d giue 's no litle growth to anie thing that beginne's so that to saie anie point of doctrine is a whole age in growing aÌ„d to saie with all it is imperceptible and after a whole age vnsensible is without doubt senslesse Yet if anie should saie that an error had beene begun by a priuate man and taught to some in one age which being neglected grew into practize in some one countrie and froÌ„ theÌ„ce by the like neglect grew likewise to be customarie in the next adioyning and so spredd it self vntill it had possessed the hart of Christendome and this for manie yeares so that now all memorie that euer the contrarie had beene in credit and practize were lost if this I saie one should tell me I doubt whether I should be able to giue him a conuincing answere and demonstratiue satisfaction Vncle. Cosen this question trencheth vpon what we haue alreadie talked of therefore I will only giue you such a hint as your self may worke vpon First it is as manifest an impossibilitie that a change of Religion should be introduced insensibly into anie one Countrie as that a burning feauer should for as long time consume the same whole couÌ„trie without being taken notice of or sought to be preuented sithence as we saide nature permit's vs not generally to be sleepie in Religion Secondly to saie it shall passe imperceptible from country to countrie and so get possession of the whole Christian world is farr more impossible men's natures and dispositioÌ„s being so diuers that if they were put to we are cappes or shoes a like it could not be effected but by some publicke force or commande Thirdly that this should be for so long a terme that the coÌ„trarie practize should be quit forgotteÌ„ to haue beene formerly in vse and request is yet beyoÌ„d both So that who soeuer is troubled with this doubt doth not rightly vnderstand the nature of Christian Religion which is a truth of the qualitie of science hanging all together Wherevnto a truth may be added and yet remaine whole but if anie falsitie or crosse position be admitted it will not only destroy the positioÌ„ immediatly opposite but also what soeuer dependeth of it that is all in deede but cheefely tradition And so we see by experience that none euer moued anie point of faith but if their reuolt dured loÌ„g they proceeded so farr as to take a waie tradition the rule of all we are to belieue But can you tell me haue we reached to the resolution of your demande aÌ„d are you fully satisfied Nephew This you haue concluded that if our church rely vpon traditioÌ„ now it euer did so And if it euer did rely vpon tradition it must needes haue maintained the same doctrine from Christ's time to ours for nether could anie former age deliuer anie thing contrarie to what they had receiued vpon this principle nor we mistake what they deliuered so that nothing contrarie to the first receiued doctrine can be admitted This yet me thinke's waÌ„teth To shew that the present Roman church rely's vpon tradition which I confesse to me is euident at least that what soeuer we haue receiued froÌ„ our forefathers as comming by-hand to hand from Christ that we reuerence and receiue all such pointes as being necessarie to be belieued Only I haue one scruple wherein I must craue your helpe And it is Whether this rule of traditioÌ„ which you giue to be so constantly held to be the rule of faith whether I saie it be so admitted of by all Catholikes or no for I feare the varietie of contrarie opinions which I heare are amoÌ„gst our learned men will preiudice your argumeÌ„s Wherefore I could wish you woud shew me §. 9 That the dissention of Catholike Doctor concerning the rule of faith doth not hurt the certaintie of Tradition FOr I am tould how true I know not that some of our Deuines mantaine that in the person of the Pope reside's the rule of faith by a singular guift and priuiledge bestowed vpon S. Peeter and his successors And this so rigorously that no Generall Councell no not although the Pope's Legats be present and confirme it is of force to oblige â—â— of faiht vntill the personall confirmation of his Holinesse be obtained Others they saie esteeme the Councell aboue the Pope and so doe not hold the Pope's approbation of a Councell to be necessarie but that this rule of faith reside's in the Councell Others I heare to make all safe ioyne both in one and nether admit the Councell without the Pope not the Pope without the Councell to breede anie obligation of faith And farther I heare that amongst these Deuines of what opinion soeuer they be touching the subiect in which this rule or highest authoritie doth reside there be some which thinke that not anie new doctrine or position can be broached or proposed as certaine and as an article of faith by what authoritie soeuer vnlesse that doctrine was esteemed certaine before and euer belieued as such Yet I am tould there be manie who mantaine and â—ouch that this highest authoritie of the church wheresoeuer it be may and can define points of doctrine not